Talk:Masutatsu Ōyama

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[edit] Choi Yeong-Eui vs Masutatsu Oyama

Whoever added so much text to the article recently, your inputs are appreciated. However, Mas Oyama spent the majority of life in Japan, and therefore, Mas Oyama is the name that should be emphasized when discussing him, not his Korean name that he only used for a short period of his life before he left for the country (Japan) that he apparently felt would provide him with more opportunities to do what he wanted to do than his native country. If you want to say that he changed his name to a Japanese name because of racism in his adopted country, then you need to cite an original source, because I've seen other sources say that he renamed himself for less pejorative reasons. The majority of his life was spent in Japan, with Japanese people, speaking in Japanese, leading a Japanese martial arts' organization. Most of the stories about his early life like living on the widow's farm and training for three years in the mountains by himself are now openly being questioned by martial artists around the world who knew him before he passed away. The article should reflect that. If you want the article to take the stance of your personal interpretation of his life, then you need to back-it-up with a lot of good references, and that means references besides advertisements for Kyokushin organizations. If you're not able or willing to do that, then I think some edits are appropriate to this article. Cla68 03:47, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Choi Yeong-Eui vs Masutatsu Oyama

I think it would be offensive to him and his parents who named him Choi Yeong-Eui not to use both names as much as you can. Even in Japan, it was highly publicized that he liked to be called Bae-dal (which was the Korean pronounciation of Mas Oyama read in Hanja). How justified is it to say he liked to be called Mas Oyama when he initially used a Japanese name in Japan because of the prejudices in that country against Koreans. Many Koreans living in Japan today will use a Japanese name cause they fear getting fired from their jobs if they use of Korean name.

Whatever. This article is for the entire on-line community, not just (or specifically) for Mas' parents. However, I think the article as it is right now is on the right track, but definitely needs more input, especially verifiable, referenced information on Mas' life. By the way, why don't you sign-in with a user account and user name and sign your posts to this discussion page? Cla68 12:41, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Someone just made an edit to the article that shows Oyama's nationality in a way that I hadn't thought of before. In 1923, when Oyama was born, Korea was actually part of Japan (the Japanese Imperial Empire). Cla68 11:59, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

This question's answer is very simple. When Mas Oyama naturalized in Japan, he decided his name to Oyama Masutatsu by himself. Therefore, his name is Oyama Masutatsu.Britenoar 07:35, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Who's idea was this?

I saw what happened when someone cut and past a Mas Oyama article onto Wikipedia. But why didn't anyone just revert it back to the way it was instead of starting a new article? The original Wikipedia article way ten times better and rewriting it was an absurd idea. Back then I didn't know how to use Wikipedia or else I would have reverted it myself. -xx.124.113.216

What happened to the old article? Shawnc 00:10, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

The previous anonymous comment was written by me. I have a username now. I recently discovered that Wikipedia articles and pictures can be undeleted. If anyone saw the old article please support me. Taeguk Warrior 12:05, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Even though there's some garbage in this entry as it's written now (someone keeps putting the Oyama legendary stuff in there as if it's fact even though a lot of it is probably false), there are still some good stuff that's been placed on there, like the article outline, some of the references, the bio info box, and his name written in Japanese and Korean characters. So if you want to revert back to an older version, instead, I would suggest copying the text you like from the older version and adding it to this newer version, editing it so it fits, and then save it. Cla68 12:59, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
I undeleted the history (and also moved your request to the proper section. It looks like a fix of the cut-and-paste that the admin accidentally forgot to complete. Sorry for the inconvenience, I'm sure he was just interrupted in Real Life before he could complete the move. Please let me know if you see any othe problems. --Deathphoenix ʕ 13:03, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I reverted it. The newer article had a lot of quotes that were unsourced so I didn't put them back into the article. Taeguk Warrior 18:07, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Oyama's Bull Fighting Legacy

Someone (it wasn't me) deleted the text about Oyama fighting and killing bulls, stating that is'a bunch of hoo-ha. I believe that his bull fighting exhibitions should be mentioned, but need to be accompianied by an inline citation to a credible source. That should keep them from being deleted. I think there's a website that has actual video of Mas fighting and knocking down a bull. If you can find it, that should be a credible source, among others that should be available. Cla68 23:06, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I had to delete it now; I didn't realize it was deleted before. The reason I and deleting it is that it is just taken verbatim from [[1]] which explicitly has a copyright.

There is a website that has a video that everyone here has seen of Oyama fighting one young bull that is restrained at the head, otherwise known as a bridled calf. Adult bulls are far larger than that. If you want to post that he beat one calf then go ahead. Or find a credible source for the more outlandish claims. I just wish people would stop posting this "killed most of them in one blow" crap. What does that even mean? That he only hit them once? That seems unlikely since these same people also claim that he would chop of a horn with his first blow. Oyama did many impressive things in his life, it would be insulting to him to resort to half truths and embellishments to make him look better. 207.161.3.28 04:04, 24 July 2006 (UTC)Matt

One problem is that Oyama never tried to refute any of the of outlandish stories told about him. People would repeat these tales, and Oyama would reportedly just stand there, nodding and smiling. It doesn't mean that these legends and tall tales can't be written in the article, but they should be in a separate section titled "Oyama legends" or "unverified feats" or something like that. Cla68 04:13, 24 July 2006 (UTC)


Here's a video from youtube.com showing Mas Oyama bring down a bull and then Karate-chopping his horn off. Link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MapyZq4YIo


Ok this video shows Oyama putting down other Karate-fighters with single hits. As it also shows Oyama karate-chop through glass-bottles. Link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bh8FfmE7sqs


These sites reference Mas Oyama's 300 man kumite fight were he defeated 300 fighters. 100 fighters in one day each.

http://www.masutatsuoyama.com/100mankumite.htm http://www.freethought-forum.com/forum/article.php?a=12 http://www.cvdnet.com/sidneykai/mas.htm

[edit] NPOV: Recent changes to the opening

He was born in Japan, since Korea was part of Japan at the time, so he had Japanese citizenship (or at least was a Japanese national). Even if this is wrong, he had permanent residency in Japan, and was naturalized. There may have been a gap (we'll have to look it up) before he naturalized when he had permanent residency instead (so "or" is not a contradiction). What is wrong with the version I've proposed in various different incarnations that says he was ethnically Korean (which recognizes his ancestry), but had Japanese citizenship or permanent residency for his lifetime? It's less controversial (I thought) than simply saying he was a Korean-Japanese, though I believe this latter statement to be accurate? Saying (by itself) that he was a Korean karate master is really unnecessarily biased. I personally like the opening statement

"Masutatsu "Mas" Oyama (大山倍達 Ōyama Masutatsu, 1923 - 1994), was a karate master who founded Kyokushinkai; a style of karate which stresses that its students should submit to vigorous training."

We can go into the ancestry bit in the next sentence. —LactoseTIT 04:34, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

You have just trapped yourself in your own words. 72.69.105.138 04:35, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
How? Please share your reasoning. I've been trying for days to come up with a neutral opening; others have tried, too--but it seems you are just shoving the same old opening down everyone's throat without any real reason. —LactoseTIT 04:38, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
I believe Mr. ``72.69.105.138`` is using an anonymous IP address instead of signing-in to his regular user account in order to avoid getting in trouble for the ``3-revert in 24-hours`` rule. Anyway, the best way to solve this disagreement is to cite a source for confirmation of Oyama's true citizenship and nationality status. There must be something, somewhere, such as a newspaper or magazine article, book, or website that discusses it. Then, if someone reverts it, it would be considered vandalism to revert or delete cited/sourced statements and we could ask an administrator to block that IP address or user account. Cla68 14:27, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I believe he's not logging in because his account is currently banned (again). —LactoseTIT 09:55, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

"He was born in Japan, since Korea was part of Japan at the time, so he had Japanese citizenship..."

http://countrystudies.us/japan/55.htm

False. Even the majority of Zainichi Koreans today do not have Japanese citizenships.

"Even if this is wrong, he had permanent residency in Japan, and was naturalized."

False. Oyama lived in Korea for periods of time. Especially towards the end of his life.

"Saying (by itself) that he was a Korean karate master is really unnecessarily biased."

Oyama was a Korean karate master. A fact is not a point of view. It is also disrespectful not to mention that because he faced a lot of discrimination for being Korean.

"His Korean name was Choi Yeong-eui (Hangul: 최영의; Hanja: 崔永宜), but he preferred Choi Bae-dal (최배달; 崔倍達)[citation needed], modeled after his Japanese name." [2]

False. Bae-dal and Masutatsu are the same names with different pronunciations. Bae-dal means "dual ethnicity". So his name was not "modeled" after his Japanese name.

You have not a single source, and therefore must resort to contradictions such as "Born a Japanese citizen, he maintained Japanese citizenship or permanent residency there throughout his life." [3] Not to mention the entire statement is false and unsourced.

"...but it seems you are just shoving the same old opening down everyone's throat without any real reason."

The majority of your edit summaries simply say "more neutral version" and "don't remove content". That is not a real reason. The rest of the time you use circular reasoning by writing what you wrote in the article as your edit summary. That only works if you have a source; which you don't. And did I mention almost everything your wrote is false? 72.69.105.138 08:21, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

The whole point of mentioning permanent residency is because Koreans lost their Japanese citizenship at the end of World War II. He had it, and lost it. All Koreans were considered Japanese nationals while Korea was part of Japan.
Permanent residency isn't a matter of where he lived, it's what his passport said. Clearly, he had the ability to live in Japan permanently. He was granted blanket permanent residency in Japan like the other people who lost their citizenship. Then, in 1968, he naturalized. —LactoseTIT 09:39, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
To make this constructive... how about the following opening (I think I suggested it at some point, and you shot it down, but maybe we can get a reason as to why):
Masutatsu "Mas" Oyama (大山倍達 Ōyama Masutatsu, 1923 - 1994) was a karate master who founded Kyokushinkai; a style of karate which stresses that its students should submit to vigorous training. He was born Choi Yeong-eui (Hangul: 최영의; Hanja: 崔永宜), but preferred Choi Bae-dal (최배달; 崔倍達)[citation needed]. An ethnic Korean, he spent most of his life living in Japan.
I think it more appropriately focuses on different parts of his life; it may understate his life as a Japanese person, but it's a good start on a neutral opening, I think. —LactoseTIT 09:55, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

You just repeated what you said before and STILL don't have a source. 72.69.105.138 01:12, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Are you suggesting you would like a source that people born in Korea/Koreans were considered Japanese nationals during the period where Korea was part of Japan? If you've like to save me a couple of minutes and have got access to any high school history book, it should be there. If you would like me to, I'd be happy to give you a few such references. —LactoseTIT 01:21, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

You have no source. Just as I thought. 72.69.105.138 01:23, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

How about [[4]] or [[5]] or [[6]]. Sorry, I didn't realize this is what you wanted a source for--it's hard to remember some things "common knowledge" to some are perhaps not to others, since Wikipedia editors come from all backgrounds/ages. —LactoseTIT

None of those are Mas Oyama articles. 72.69.105.138 01:32, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Right--and you point would be what? They discuss the situation that all Koreans born during that period were Japanese nationals. —LactoseTIT 01:34, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Although those sources don't specifically mention Oyama, they do provide evidence of what his citizenship status probably was. However, unless a source is found that specifically states that Oyama fell under the situation listed in those sources, some editors (perhaps Mr. ``72.69.105.138`` might be one of them) will still argue that the evidence isn't conclusive enough to overrule their POV on the issue. Cla68 09:11, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Well, those sources say what his sdituation was up until 1945, right? So it's not controversial to say that he was a Japanese national for at least (a significant) part of his life. If anything, I haven't seen any source proving he ever had Korean citizenship (though I expect he did after the war and before he naturalized), so that would be "unsourced" as well. While we know for a fact he had Japanese citizenship up until 1945, without additional sources we don't know exactly what happened after that.
As for sources about status as a Japanese citizen--in Donbas, ISBN 0595150438, Oyama repeatedly states he is Japanese. In Oyama: The Legend, the Legacy by Michael L. Lorden, I believe they go into this as well (though I don't have my copy right in front of me). Perhaps the former source would be enough to warrant changing the opening to a more neutral version. I really think he is defined by being a karate master well before being either Japanese or Korean--so unless we get really strong sources, I suggest moving this out of the first sentence--the line about his status is simply too long to put in there and mucks up for what he is known.
I really don't care one way or another what this article states as long as it's balanced; I just think it's too extreme to shove unsourced "he was actually Korean" in the first sentence of the paragraph--he was ethnically, but the way it's worded in Taeguk Warrior's (and his other IP's) versions it is misleading. Note that I'm not trying to change the "Korean" to "Japanese"--and TW seems to want to strike from the record the fact that he even lived in Japan for most of his life. Taeguk: Are you really claiming this needs an additional source as well?
Read the opening paragraph the way it is--what do you think a person who never heard of Masutatsu Oyama before would conclude? It sounds like he was born, lived, and died in Korea, when in reality the man spent most of his life in Japan proper (and virtually all of his life on Japanese soil, living in Japanese Korea/China as a child), as a self identified Japanese man, building a career in Japanese martial arts and culture. —LactoseTIT 09:41, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Nice presentation of your case. If, however, you could add-in inline citations from the sources to the article that you mention above, that would, I believe, fairly cement your case. One thing I've discovered as a participant in the Wikipedia Martial Arts project is that it's really difficult, but no less important, to find credible sources for assertions on martial arts' topics. By the way, if all the IP editor's disputed edits really are from the single editor you mention, then I think that person is painting him or herself into a corner. If he or she was the one who recently tried to delete previous comments from this discussion page, then I no longer have any sympathy (or empathy) for whatever sanctions are placed on him or her in the future for similar actions. Cla68 02:20, 31 August 2006 (UTC)


Choi Bae-dal married a Japanese woman thus the citizenship.

[edit] Anti-Semitism and anti-Korean

as a man of neutral background...it surprises me to see so many anti-semitism and anti-Korean point of views on many articles of Wikipedia. however before attacking on my personal view, please think about the way most of you think..

i think it is quite shameful to see many people (usually non-German or non-Japanese) tend to think any story/article relating to Japan and Germany's warcrimes and their ethnic bashing/ethnic cleansing as being pro-Korean or pro-Semitism...i know it may be hard for you guys to think such things happened in the past but they did.

still many zainichi, Chinese nationals of Japan and Turks of Germany and British Asians suffer from hidden abuses...(inequality, ijime etc) and just because you're interested in Japanese/German culture that doesn't mean you have to worship them and defend their crimes as well.

you shouldn't have too much sympathy for the oppressors and admit to their mistakes in the past 202.37.68.16 06:33, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Before anyone considers responding to this, please be aware that this anonymous editor may be a sock puppet for a notorious POV-pusher whose account was given a long-term ban. Of course, this anonymous editor is free to sign-in and sign the message above with his account name to prove that I'm wrong, if I am. Cla68 14:37, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "was said that he shaved one of his eyebrows so he would not leave the mountains."

"was said that he shaved one of his eyebrows so he would not leave the mountains."

Ok, so what exactly does this mean? Fred26 10:06, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Kyokushin way.jpg

Image:Kyokushin way.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Sosai3.jpg

Image:Sosai3.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 07:41, 15 January 2008 (UTC)