Talk:Massacres of Poles in Volhynia

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[edit] Old talk

Genyo:

1) POlish pacification campaigns were not mass murders. Polish police was behaving brutally, but accidents of deaths were almost nill.

2) There is nothing like "scholarly" and "non-scholarly" estimation. You label those which you like "Scholarly" and others "non-scholarly" that's all.

3) There is a lot which talks us that ethnic cleansing was initiated by local UPA commanders, and not by individual groups. Szopen

Szopen:

1) The pacification campaigns involved political suppressions of the innocent and their arrests, wanton destruction of property and attacks on those who protested--and the deaths of many people--sometimes deliberate.

2) I'm not talking about "something like scholarly estimations." But I am talking about scholarly estimates. There are a few scholars in Poland who study the issue on a scholarly level, and their figures tend to be around 30,000-60,000. Popular literature campaigns tend to assert the figures of 100,00 to 300,000. In the further interests of accuracy, you don't know what I like--which is OK, because what I like or don't like is irrelevant to the article.

3) There is no evidence I know of to suggest that the UPA leadership ordered this attack on Polish civilians/settlers in Volynia. Groups of UPA soldiers, whoever, and, I think probably some "units" under many local leaders did engage in sporadic killings on a very widespread scale in an attempt to drive Poles out of Volynia. That's a crime.

Genyo 17:17, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I will respond by tuesday - i have to find material to support my claims Szopen

Hey Szopen, if you can find proof of scholarly research yielding higher estimates, I would not object to including them! Genyo 01:16, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Hi Genyo! "There are few scholars in Poland who study it..." Hehehehe. I won't post whole bibliography, just few names: Poliszczuk (Polish Ukrainian), Torzecki, Gross, Siemiaszko, Siwicki (Polish Ukrainian), Jasiak, Filar, Romanowski, HUk (Polish Ukrainian), Mazur, Turowski...

The numbers:

Norman Davies: 60.000 - 500.000 Jan P. Gross: 60-80.000 (Polish society under German occupation, Princetown, New York 1979) Siemiaszko's: 50-60.000 in Wolyn alone, probably 100.000 in Total. Siemiaszko's (father and daughter) documented that it was action of Bandera, not sporadic local units. POliszczuk: 50-60.000 in Wolyn, 120.000 in total. Poliszczuk also is convinced, that is was action of UPA, not sporadic units. Torzecki: 40.000 in Wolyn, 100.000 in total, blames Bandera and UPA Fijalka: 40.000 Turowski: 60.000 in Wolyn, 300.000 in total. Olszanski: blames Bandera and UPA. He also notes that most ukrainian historians does not distinguish between AK and 2000-strong collaborationist police "Polish" batallion which German employed here. Motyka: at least 35.000 on Volyn alone, but 50-60.000 is also reasonable (for Volyn alone) Szczesniak, Szota: 100.000 Poles murdered in total, both in Galicia and Volyn. Bogumila Berdychowska: gives different estimates from 34.647 documented (and 12.491 known from name) via 50.000 to 60.000 (on Volyn alone)

Hrycak (Ukrainian) 60-100.000

There is also (unscholar) estimation that Bandera's soldiers murdered also 80.000 their Ukrainian compatriots.

In short, all Polish historians blame Bandera and consider this central-ordered action. Essentially i don't know single Polish author who would not consider it action sanctioned by UPA. There is no order preserved starting it, but there are documents given after the start, in which there is e.g. ordered burning even trees around villages. The number of murdered is between 30-60.000, truth, but on VOlyn alone, and in total is between 100-120 thousands or more.

Also, this is not some "local units". E.g 11 July started actions which lasted to the august - during two mothns 1943 dies more Poles than during two previous years. In august also there are orders about distribution of land from destroyed Polish villages etc. (by Dmytro Kljaczkiwśkyj ). There are raports of coordinated marches of multiple UPA units which destroyed every Polish village during march. Between 11 and 15 July 167 Polish villages were attacked and detroyed. Ukrainian helping Poles were punished by death by UPA.

Number of Ukrainian victims is between 2.5 thousand to 10.000 in Volyn alone, according to most Polish authors.

I was tracing regular Polish-Ukrainian meetings of historians, and until now there is no agreement between them. IIRC They were only able to sign "document of disagreement" were they stated what each side believe. Disagreements included e.g the earlier NSZ actions in Chelmszczyzna. Szopen


Szopen, This is a kaleidoscope of numbers, that seems to add much confusion and very little clarity. Also, much of the numbers tend to be towards the lower end of figures in the article. Secondly, remember, not every person with a typewriter and printer is a scholar. Nor is every person who runs a publication campaign. Some of the names you mention are fine historians. But did they pull figures from other sources in passing, or did they actually conduct historical research on this question and then construct the most likely figure or range based on facts? It's the second one I'm interested in. And I've heard there are a couple of scholars who have done or are doing this kind of work. (There may be more.) What did they say?

An alternative analytical way to look at the issue is to ask the following questions. What was the Polish population in Volynia pre-war? How many died in the first Soviet invasion of 1939 and in subsequent fighting? How many starved or died of illness? How many fled or went abroad to work? How many were deported by the Soviets post 1943? How many Polish people in Poland and other countries today trace their ancestry to Volynia? And how many were killed by local actions of the UPA? Genyo 15:10, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The names are from publication "Polish and Ukrainians historians and problems of XX century", materials from joint conference about Polish-Ukrainian relationship, part of cooperation between Polish historians and Ukrainians.

So, the names i quoted ARE based on partial documents, testimonies etc.

To the second question, well, after reading a lot i tend to think that indeed the number of victims was not much higher than 60.000 on VOlyn alone and not more than 200.000 in all massacres.

I've read statistics from which it was concluded that from those Poles which stayed in Volyn (something like 150.000) after deportations etc about 45% was murdered by UPA actions (something like 60.000). That's why i think the number of killed couldn't be more than 100.000 (In Volun alone, but remember the UPA started killings in Volyn, but the massacres weren't limited to Volyn). Szopen

[edit] The new version

I altered the article a bit to conform with the Inverted pyramid rule of thumb. Perhaps a good idea would be to create a table with all the estimations on the number of civilian losses on both sides to give the reader a general idea as to what the ranges are without having to decide which number is the closest to the truth? If the historians cannot decide, why should we? Halibutt 13:04, 11 May 2004 (UTC)

Ok, since nobody seems to be interested in this article anymore, I prepared a table with all the estimates. Let the reader decide for himself or herself. What do you think?

I also removed the publicity campaign thingie. This would lead us nowhere since in Ukraine there are also a lot of morons who try to support their case with numbers, whatever they may be ([1]). Is it acceptable? I also planned to add some photos, although most of them are too drastic IMO. Especially those with children tied up to a tree with barbed wire...

Anyway, is the article acceptable now? Halibutt 09:09, Jun 19, 2004 (UTC)


I couldn't make any sense out of this article as I originally found it. I know absolutely nothing about this subject (and even after reading it, I still don't. Not a good sign.), but I speak English, so I tried to edit it into a more natural sounding essay. I also added some small explanations for readers who don't already know all about Polish history. The big thing still missing is when, exactly, did all this take place? Sept. 18, 2004

[edit] why Npov

Nothing is said about Polish collaboration with Nazi's against UPA and civilian Ukrainians

Meaby because... that never happened.--Witkacy 13:34, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

but it did Ilya K 13:57, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

Provide evidence then - and the proposed wording. Halibutt 15:10, May 11, 2005 (UTC)
Some historians i;ve read mentuioned (without details) POlish police batallion, 2000 people strong, which was employed by Nazis here and which (supposedly) was mistaken by some Ukrainian historians with AK. How believable is this, I don't know - i've read just a single sentence and could not dig out anything more about that. Szopen 07:36, 12 May 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Evidence of Polish terror

sorry, i haven't noticed this words in article Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia#Casualties

Retaliation by the Polish forces of the Home Army resulted in the deaths of additional 15,000 to 30,000 Ukrainian civilians of the region, though the exact number of deaths is even less documented. The numbers cited probably include also the victims of German Schutzmannschaft and Soviet partisans, who also took part in the ethnic cleansing. There are efforts to bring about reconciliation between the Polish people and Ukrainians over these tragic events.


Только на Волыни под немецкой оккупацией в 1943-1944 годах поляки уничтожили не менее 10 тысяч украинцев, а украинцы – не менее 25 тысяч поляков
(en:)Onlly on Volynya Poles killed at least 10 000 Ukrainains, and Urainians killed at least 25 000 Poles
Правда також полягає в тому, що жертви під час тих трагічних подій були обопільними . В межах численних "відплатних" та "превентивних" акцій АК загинуло чимало мирних українців, серед них діти й жінки. Терористичні акції, як вважають історики, здійснювались не лише проти польських сіл та колоній на кшталт Гайового, Ганачової, Ігровиці, Гути Пеняцької, але й проти українських сіл, таких як Іваничі, Клечковичі, Стриженець, Турковичі та інших. Антиукраїнські акції проводились у багатьох регіонах, зокрема в Томашівському та Грубешовському повітах Любельського воєводства. Щоправда, згідно з поширеною оцінкою, ці жертви були меншими, ніж польські; але це знову ж таки не змінює того факту, що вбивства були спрямовані проти цивільного населення.
(en:)Victims were on both sides. In their numerous "revenge" and "prevention" actions AK killed many civil Ukrainians, including children and women. Terror action, according to historians, were not only against Polish villages and colonies such as Гайового, Ганачової, Ігровиці, Гути Пеняцької but also againt Ukrainain villages such as Іваничі, Клечковичі, Стриженець, Турковичі and others. Antiukrainian actions took place in many regions, such as Томашівському та Грубешовському повітах Любельського воєводства. To be true, according to widespread estimation those victims were less numerous than among Poles, but this cannot change the fact that murders were against civil people.

This includes many publications of Polish and Ukrainain historians, analysing them may give more weighted point of view

Варто згадати, що не раз траплялися випадки польської помсти, неодноразово кривавої, жертвою якої ставали люди, що не мали нічого спільного з нападами. Для прикладу, 8 березня 1944 p. після нападу на село Блищиводи застрелено кільканадцять українців, які поверталися з ярмарку у Жовкві. Також у березні 1944 p. жовніри львівського Кедиву у Сороках коло Старого Села застрелили 17 чоловік і місцевого греко-католицького священика разом із сім’єю. В Лопушній вбито 48 українських фірманів з Першої та Підтемня, які їхали по деревину. Часом висилали українцям листівки з вимогою виїзду, аналогічні до тих, що висилала УПА. В одній з них читаємо: “Українці! Вбивства і напади ваших банд [...] не дають нам співжити [...]. Отже наказую українському населенню протягом 48 годин залишити місцевості, в яких живуть поляки. Відмова виконати наказ каратиметься смертю” [35]. І ще одна цитата, яка, думаю, добре ілюструє тодішню трагічну дійсність: “13 червня в Антонівці застрелено поляка. Полякам вдалося спіймати 1 українця, якого зарубали” [36].
(en:)We should note numerous cases of polish revenge, often bloody, agains random people. For example (...)
Однією із найважчих тем, що стосуються польсько-українського конфлікту 1939-1948 рр., є питання польських акцій супроти українського цивільного населення. Упродовж багатьох років у польській історіоґрафії панувала думка, що поляки не провадили дій проти цивільних1. Жінки, діти чи беззбройні чоловіки могли загинути від рук поляків хіба випадково, внаслідок нещасливого збігу обставин. Виняток із цього правила становили антиукраїнські акції народного підпілля, про які писали для того, щоби здискредитувати в очах польського суспільства воїнів Національних Збройних Сил чи Національного Військового З’єднання2.
(en:) One of the hardest topics on Poliash-Ukrainain conflict 1939-1948 is Polish action againt Ukrainain civil people. Thought that Poles did't carry actions against civil people dominated along many years among Polish historians.
Падіння комунізму відкрило можливість вільно, хоча й не без емоцій, дискутувати на цю тему. Зараз уже ніхто з польських істориків не заперечує, що поляки вдавалися до акцій у відповідь, нерідко безжальних і кривавих. Суперечка точиться лише про оцінку, масштаби і розміри подій цього типу. Тут я маю намір лише окреслити проблему.
(en:) The fall of Communism let freely althogh emotionally dispute on this topic. Nowadays none of polish historians denies the fact of Polish revenge actions, often ruthless and bloody.
Найяскравішим прикладом антиукраїнських дій були пацифікаційні акції, які провадила польська допоміжна поліція, що перебувала на німецькій службі
(en:) The brightest example of antiUkrainain actions was pacification actions carried by Polish helping police on Nazi service.
Село Підлужне оточене і спалене, мешканців розстріляно. Злазне спалене дощенту.
(en:) village Pidluzhne surrounded and burned, inhabitants killed. Zlazne burned to nothing
Каральні акції провадили також відділи польської комуністичної партизанки. Серед инших вони спалили села Любеньж і Лахвичі. У звітах про акцію у Лахвичах навіть йшлося про “вирізування українського населення”
(en:) Actions were carried out also by Polish communist partisans. Among others they burned villages Любеньж і Лахвичі. It was “cutting out ukrainian people”

Ilya K 12:13, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

For reference, two of those sites have English names and sections:
Also, I'd appreciate if for the above quotes you could add information on title, author, date and affilated academic journal/institution (university, usually) - if any. See Wikipedia:Cite sources for details. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 14:22, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

As a sidenote: the page is in Ukrainian, not in Russian. Halibutt



Poliszczuk is not a historian, he graduated with a political science degree (actually, on his book he calls it a law degree but Siemaszkos disagree for some reason). I don't know the Siemaszko's background - are they like Poliszczuk also amateurs? That being said, their reliance on Moscow-published sources is rather telling. The article above comes out looking like an attack on real historians (Torzecki) by opinionated non-historians who cannot even get their facts straight. For example, Ukrainian-American Orest Subtelny does not work in the US, but in Canada, although he obtained his Ph.D. in history at Harvard in 1973. His book is published by the University of Toronto Press. In contrast, Poliszczuk does not have any degree in history. And his books are self-published; certainly no university would ruin their reputation publishing his amateur historical opinions. It is frankly ridiculous to compare the two.

Whoeever wrote the above nonsense is an amateur propagandist as well as amateur historian, because they cannot even hide their agenda, in the end of their article mentioning their oppostion to Ukrainian-Polish strategic partnership, support for East German politicians opposed to German reunification, etc. I guess some people really regret the events starting in 1989. Faustian 14:50, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

I have read nothing by Poliszczuk, and I know little about the matter of hand. But while I agree that publisher info is important on judging how respected one's works are, I don't think the same hold true for degree. I can believe that a political sciencetist could write perfectly good academic books on the subjects of history or sociology, for example. If Poliszczuk is controversial, we should find sources stating that. Information on his publisher should be visible in references, and the reader can judge their quality. While you certainly raise good points about whether we should use his references, we need more info before we determine what to do with it. Wikipedia:Reliable sources may come in handy, too.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 21:34, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree that a lawyer can write a good history book, but in the case of Poliszczuk it seems that he used the credential "Dr." misleadingly, in order to present himself as a historian. This reminds me of a notorious American Christian fundamentalist "Dr." stating that the theory of evolution is wrong. He was a legitmate Ph.D., but of mathematics rather than biology. A similar situation exists with Dr. Poliszczuk, who as I indicated not only lacks the academic background but also must self-publish his works, rather than have them printed by (as legitimate historians do) peer-referenced journals, university publishing houses, etc. There is a wikipedia article on Wiktor Poliszczuk. The discussion section is interesting.

A legitimate Polish historian, Ryszard Torzecki, offered a quick assessment of Poliszczuk as an NKVD guy whose opinions are worthless: http://www.brama.com/survey/messages/23280.html (the original interview is no longer on the on-line archive). This is highly suggested by Poliszczuk's career. He was sent to Siberia where perhaps something went right for him - afterwards he settled in Wroclaw, obtained a Ph.D. in law during the times of the communist regime, moved to Toronto in 1981 where he then engaged in antagonizing the fiercely anti-Communist Ukrainian community there.

Torzecki's works have been published by Harvard and he is considered one of the most important experts on Polish-Ukrainian relations: http://www.huri.harvard.edu/cat.ukrainian.html. Faustian 14:29, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Poliszczuk is an interesting author, certainly worth being mentioned, but not referenced as a source. He certainly is a historian by profession (and not by education, but that's not a requirement). However his research is considered controversial and far from any mainstream, therefore I'd advise a cautious approach. This said, reading him is useful, if only to see one of the POVs. Certainly a better author than e.g. Professor Edward Prus. Anyway, not advised for an uninitiated reader. --Lysytalk 18:03, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
A good paper that I always recommend in cases like this is Recent Polish Historiography on Polish-Ukrainian Relations during World War II and its Aftermath by Rafał Wnuk. --Lysytalk 18:13, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The victim table

Why does it say in the beginning of the article that "approximately 100,000 Poles were massacred in Volhynia" when the tables largest figure is 80.000? Some figures are even as "low" as 35.000. Where does 100.000 come from? (Dynamok)

I believe it is a leftover of the early versions of this article, when it was still not certain whether the focus should be Volhynia alone or whole Ukraine. Feel free to correct that. Halibutt 18:15, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Background and further comments

I've added a detailed background to the tragic events in Volhynia but have noticed that the talk about the massacres themselves is somewhat sparse. While gruesome details about the things done may not be appropriate, perhaps someone with access to Polish historical (not "non-scientific" please) sources could provide more info on the places, etc. Faustian 18:21, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

It is quite difficult, as most of the sources differ on these, and most of the more specific statements are controversial one or another way. As for the references, I find the book by Andrzej Sowa to be quite reasonable and comprehensive, I only don't have it at hand now. --Lysytalk 18:36, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Number of colonists

The number of colonists and victims contradicts the artice Osadnik, which actually gives official data about resettlement into Kresy (Western Belarus and Western Ukraine), of which the Volhynian Voivodship was part of. Surely the number of colonists in Volhynia cant be larger than in the whole Kresy. `'mikka (t) 17:01, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Subtelny's Ukraine: A History (1988, University of Toronto Press) states that initially army veterans made up most of the colonists but that later civilians predominated, and that "despite the fact that Galicia was one of the most overpopulated agricultural regions in Europe, the Polish settlers received largea llotments of the best land as well as generous financial subsidies. Those who chose not to work on the land obtained positions as village policemen, postal or railroad employees, or petty officials. Ukrainian sources claim that by 1938 200,00 Poles had moved into the villages of Eastern Galicia and Volhynia and another 100,00 settled in the towns; Polish writers place the total number of colonists at less than 100,000." Subtelny noted that while the number of colonists was too small the dramatically affect the ethnic composition, it was large enough to be a major source of resentment to the local (land-starved) Ukrainian peasants.Faustian 20:59, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Snyder in "The Reconstruction of Nations: Poland, Ukraine, Lithuania, Belarus, 1569-1999" also notes the land reform and arrival of colonists, see this Google Books link. --Irpen 01:50, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Picture

The event depicted took place in Ternopil region that is outside Volhynia in the modern Ukraine. Is it OK to consider Ternopil to be Volhynian for the purpose of the article? abakharev 22:29, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Tarnopol Voivodship and Volhynian Voivodship is different Voivodship of Second Polish Republic. I remove this disputable image with article. --Yakudza 07:14, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

May I ask, why the picture that denotes the events that took place in Ternopil area is being reintroduced here all the time despite the talk above? If you really need a picture here, please use a monument constructed now in Poland specifically dedicated to these events. I am not sure this image is GFDL but perhaps someone has an image we are allowed to use. This photo of the events that took place elesewhere does not fit this particular article. --Irpen 23:11, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

The scope of the Massacres of Poles in Volhynia is much wider and, contrary to what the name would suggest, not limited to the voivodship, but applies to the whole historical region, that included Ternopil. You do not seriously assume, that people conducting the ethnic cleansing would respect the administrative division of the country and limit themselves only to the territory of the pre-war voivodship. As to "monument constructed now in Poland specifically dedicated to these events", I'm not sure what monument do you mean. This one seems like a photo taken at a cemetery to me.--Lysytalk 06:06, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

If this was indeed of the scale wider than Volhynia why not rename the article to reflect that it is on a wider topic? Say, Anti-Polish events in Western Ukraine, 1943-1944 or something similar. That would also allow to "de-massacre" one more title which is always a good idea. The less martyrdoms and massacres in titles, the less flames we see. All the info about horror should be relayed by the text and not the title. --Irpen 06:15, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Because that's how it's called. The slaughter of Poles took place in whole of what is now western Ukraine, though it became known from the accounts of Volhynia first. Renaming would be a decent idea, though in fact we'd be going against the established names I believe. As to massacres - the same arguments apply here, especially given your personal campaign of liberation and such. //Halibutt 08:13, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
One reason not to rename is to use establised names. The alternative established name would be Volhynia slaghter but massacre seems less loaded. I know that Russian editors have often some problems with the "massacre" word, but I believe this might be because it has some different meaning in Russian than in English. As for Volhynia, I'm sure you know this, that the historical region is much larger than the voivodship alone, and the name of the article seems most adequate. It's not "Massacres of Poles in Volhynia Voivodhip" after all. --Lysytalk 10:16, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
I remember a while ago Halibutt mentioned that the photo is from a book of a Polish photographer completely filled with similar photos. I guess by both Polish and Ukrainian copyright laws the photos of 1943 are public domain. Is it possible to upload a picture from the same book but of an event that actually happen in Volynia voivodship? And strong but a little less graphic. It will remove a lot of questions. abakharev 11:16, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
I think this picture is a very good illustration of the article, honestly. A picture tells more than a thousand words. I agree this one is very disturbing, but is should be. It explains very well why the topic is so emotional and difficult for Poles. There's no hidden agenda behind this. I'm not sure why you insist on Volhynia voivodship ? --Lysytalk 18:43, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Halibutt and Lysy. I gather for this that you prefer "in Volhynia" which is "established" even though it is wrong (as it was of a wider scale). Did I understand you correctly? Ternopil is not only outside Volhynian Voivodship. it is also outside of the historic territory of Volhynia. As such, the title is simply misleading. Descriptive titles are allowed, so what's wrong with that?

Halibutt, I don't object to the usage of "massacre", if the sources use it, in the article but not in the title. I never introduced the word "liberation" you hate so much to a single article's title.

So, could we de-massacre the title and get the name reflect the scale of the events at the same time? --Irpen 17:23, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Irpen, I think you are still confusing Volhynia with Volhynian Voivodship. Why would Ternopil need to be inside Volhynian Voivodship ? As for the "massacre", I have a deja vu feeling. Why would you like not to use this word ? Is there any controversy about whether this was massacre or not ? I am against whitewashing history, regardless of whether Russian, Polish or Ukrainian. The historians may differ about the number of victims but there is no dispute about the name of the event and there is abundance of sources available about Volhynia Slaughter or Massacre. --Lysytalk 18:51, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I am not against the using of the word massacre, in the articles if this is referenced, like here, and I made it clear above. I am against using this word in the article titles. Ternopil was not only outside Volhynia voivodship but it was not part of historic Volhynia. In Austria-Hungary, it was part of administrative Galicia AFAIK. What's wrong with the title I suggested? It is a descriptive title, I take it, but it is exact, neutral and descriptive titles are OK to have. I would not object to the usage of the m-word inside the article in any way. --Irpen 19:35, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I think your're not reading my questions. Let me rephrase them then: why would you think Ternopil needed to be inside Volhynia ? Does the image show Ternopil ? No, it shows the victims in Łobozowa. If you check e.g. uk:Волинь, you'll see that parts of Ternopil oblast fell in Volhynia. But that's not the point. The purpose of the picture is to illustrate the phenomenon and it does it very good. As for the "massacre" word, again, why do you object using the word in article's title. Is there any controversy about this ? --Lysytalk 20:03, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

The purpose of the pic and the article is to illustrate the phenomenon... What phenomenon? Was it restricted exlusively to Volhynia? In not, the title is impreside at best and misleading at worst, even if Lobozova was a part of historic Volhynia.

The controversy of using the strong words in the titles is one and the same. It is more inflammatory than the usage in the text, where the usage can be referenced to specific sources. Descriptive titles are neutral and exact. Also, they don't prejudge the issues that are resolved in the articles. --Irpen 20:45, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Why should we be using weasel word in the title if the established name for the events was "slaughter" or "massacre" ? Massacre is a perfectly valid name and there are many articles about other massacres: Tlatelolco massacre, Nanking Massacre, Malmedy massacre, Jallianwala Bagh Massacre, Montreal Massacre, or Qibya massacre to name just a few. Again, these things happened, every serious source confirms this, and there's no need to attempt to whitewash history. --Lysytalk 21:23, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Don't forget to rename the Battle of Kiev to Liberation of Kiev too, Lysy. This is pretty established name and plenty of sources say so. I thought it justifies to use it in the articles but never pushed it into the titles. What is exactly is the weasel word in the title I suggest? --Irpen 21:42, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Wrong comparison. In the case of Kiev there are two sides: the Soviets calling it liberation and the rest of the world focusing mostly on the military aspect. In here we have the entire world calling it as it is called versus... err... Irpen..? //Halibutt 21:58, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

In case of Kiev an entire world, including the west in the military literature calls it liberation as shown repeatedly by the multitude of source. The word is disputed by the few adherents of the fringe POV and those who read nothing on the topic at all but the summaries of those same POV-pushers.

Let me ask, again, what's weasel in "Anti-Polish events..." title I suggest provided we still use the m-word in the text? --Irpen 22:20, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

The picture does not have authentic source and seemingly fabricated. In any case, it is not ethicaly admissible to expose somebody's personal suffering to open public opinion. --Ans-mo 14:08, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

There are several evident reasons, for which such picture can not be displayed here. First, it shows personal suffering of innocent children to the public view. Second, the picture is not provided with authentic, identified and proved source, there are no names of photographer and no names of the victims. The connection of this picture to actions of UPA is not documentarily proved. Third, there are signs of fabrication on that picture (line of "barbed wire" seems to be added lately to the picture and doesnot have any connection with bodies of the victims, as some experts say). Fourth, it fosters feeling of hatred from one side in two sided armed conflict, when two peoples were made antagonists by Soviet and German empires and regretful cases were indicated from each side. Both Ukraine and Poland have already made significant steps toward reconciliation (see some links below). Any of the above mentioned reasons is enough for not placing such photo in this article. Ans-mo 07:09, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

If it is fabricated it should go. If it's true it should stay to illustrate the issue. Certainly horrific, but if true, it should not be hidden. I think this discussion belongs rather here. --Lysytalk 09:57, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

You dont have any firm proof that this picture is true. For posting such picture you must be sure on 100% about the source, author, names of the victims and photographer. You must also have proof that, this crime was made by UPA (during the described period, Volyn had german fascists, communist partisans, Army Krajowa and UPA on its territory. You can not present any documentary evidence. If this picture is fabricated or is not connected with UPA actions, it should remain the problem of your conscience. Ans-mo 09:47, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

The purpose of the picture is to illustrate the article. The reason for that is to show that the events in Volhynia were very brutal and to visually explain why they are still very difficult for many Poles. The purpose of this is not to blame UPA, and I have already opposed against inclusion in the Ukrainian Insurgent Army article. Since you are inventing a number a reasons to remove the picture from this article, it's obvious that it really bothers you. Maybe you could explain why would you prefer not to see it here and then we could come to some more reasonable conclusion ? Do you believe that the events were not that brutal at all ? --Lysytalk 20:58, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry just to say that illustrating an article with an image which is not connected to the article is disinformation (or propaganda)! What about illustrating Majdanek camp with Auschwitz pictures ... What abour presenting jewish casualties for tsigan genocide ... and so on What about presenting pictures of the first Iraq war to illustrate the second one ...

This is explained already in the beginning of the discussion above. Please take your time to read it first. Thanks. --Lysytalk 12:25, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

I have no problem with this picture in this article, as long as the caption does not blame UPA for this crime (which it does not), because the criminals are not known. Faustian

I'm sorry to say that I'm not at all convince about what is say : Ternopil is VERY far from what is known as Vohlynia, and there is ABSOLUT no proof that this murder shown on this pic is linked with the Volhynia tragedy ... And the place of the picture does not seem to be very clear Łobozowa or Kobzowa (and do you really know where this village is ?)

The purpose of this picture is to better illustrate how brutal the events were then. We do no know and it does not matter who the murderers were in this particular case. Thousands of civilians were butchered and these children were among the victims. As to Volhynia, I think you do not understand two things. First, historically Volhynia was much, much larger than Volyn Oblast today. Secondly, the "massacres in Volhynia" is just a name that refers to the events that took place in a larger area. Would you like separate articles for "massacres in Volyn oblast", "massacres in Zhytomyr oblast", "massacres in Ternopil oblast" and so on ? --Lysytalk 21:42, 11 November 2006 (UTC)


I totaly disagree with the use of a picture in the aim of illustrate an article if this picture is not RELATED to this article : DOING THIS IS JUST PROPAGANDA ! There are other picture, which are correctly sourced which could be used, but not this one which is not sourced correctly(three supposed authors, two villages not really well defined (always followed by the sign "?"), so NOT USABLE. It true that many books written in Poland have used this picture, even saying ,that THIS REALLY HAS BEEN MADE IN VOLHYNIA MASSACRE, but when books were publish abroad there was a dispute, and someon found that the picture was first taken somewhere in Ternopil region, which is far from being Volhyni, or Pollysia, or Khelm region, were the massacre were done. Then some have made hypothesis that this children were gypsies and not polish children, so nconnected at all to that subject ... USING THIS PICTURE IS JUST DOING PROPAGANDA, which is not the aim of Wikipedia, as far as I know. Also using this picture here, lets think that this murder was commited by UPA member, which is far from being prooved... Could you (or anyone else) please tell me where is this village in Ukraine?

The only article where this picture could be used is an article about murder/massacre in Ukraine during WWII concerning Ukrainian, Polish, Gipsies, Jewish people ...

I have no idea where this village is. All I know is that:
  1. The massacre in Volhynia happened in Tarnopol Voivodeship as well;
  2. Contrary to what you say, historic Volhynia included the areas of Tarnopol Voivodeship;
  3. A number of sources present this picture as an illustration of the victims of Volhynia massacre.
Now, are there any sources that dispute this ? Or is your opinion only the result of your personal research ? --Lysytalk 19:53, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Could you precise the village where it happened in Ternopil Voivodship? I am not aware about similar fact in that voivodship ... Ternopil voivodship HAS NEVER BEEN INCLUDED TOTALLY IN VOHLYNIA VOIVODSHIP Just the northern part of Ternopil Voivodship was once included in Volhynia (an line from Pochaiv to Liubar). Only polish sources present this picture as victims of Volhynia massacre. and NOBODY could really source this picture. So I don't understand why put REAL picture of the massacre instead of this one....

Which REAL picture would you suggest ? --Lysytalk 20:19, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

http://genocide007.webpark.pl/1024x768/rys8b.JPG or http://genocide007.webpark.pl/1024x768/rys5b.JPG Best regards

All right. I have replaced the picture as you suggested but I still think the previous image was a better illustration for this particular article. Even if more graphic. --Lysytalk 09:04, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Let's take a photo from Polish version of this article - children nailed to the tree. I think it would be more "illustrative" about the real suffer.... Merewyn 13:24, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

The Polish wiki page devoted to UPA relies on, to put it charitably, nonscientific sources of little value such as the works of Wiktor Poliszczuk and are hardly a model for this page, which is objective and of much higher quality. Faustian 14:12, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Aha, photo's not objective .... and those children was nailed to the tree for fun by the UFO from Mars? Merewyn 09:28, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
If you reread what I wrote you would see that I was speaking about the article on Polish wiki, not the picture specifically.Faustian 03:12, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Why I mentionned this photo of children nailed to the tree? Because a monument is planned in Warsaw to commemorate the victims of Volhynia massacres and the project is based on this picture - http://wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/wiadomosci/1,53600,3948595.html (news is in Polish, just take a look at photos) Merewyn 09:40, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
The atrocity depicted in the picture might not have happened in Volyn (a caption states it was in Tarnopol region) and as someone suggested the victims may have been gypsies. As long as the picture did indeed include Poles and did inded occur in Volyn, I have no problem with that that picture being placed in this article. But those facts are being questioned, above... Faustian 03:07, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Rzeczpospolita new article is a good proof the image of the children is NOT related to this article. That said it may be notable to create an article on it (and/or the monument), and how the misconception arose.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  16:27, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tadeusz Piotrowski?

The author is a sociologist, not a historian. When presenting such shocking information it seems that we ought to be extra careful about the source and limit ourselves to historians, encyclopedia, or such rather than self-published non-historians such as Poliszczuk or journalists. Piotrowski is less dubious than Wiktor Poliszczuk (whose claims I have removed from this article) but still, he is a professor of sociology rather than of history. There are many historians doing work on this subject (such as Torzecki or Rafal Wnuk of the Institute of National Remembrance ), why not use their information?Faustian 19:54, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

He is a notable English scholar; that his department is sociology doesn't prevent him from contributing valuable material to other social sciences. Many sociologists contribute to the area of history, studying sociological phenomena.
Here are some reliable (western academic) reviews of his book: [2], [3]. PS. Unlike Wnuk or Torzecki, Piotrowski's work is in English, which makes it more accessible. PPS. That said, I see no reason for inclusion of this paragraph; I don't think such details serve any purpose on encyclopedia. Piotrowski provides much useful information on this sad event, but this paragraph is not one of them.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  01:51, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
OK, this paragraph perhaps was not encyclopedic, but otherwise I think we should use Piotrowski's work. What do other editors think? Tymek 02:39, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
I agree, in which case his contributions should be limited to sociological data (peoples' attitudes, sociodemographic variables, etc.) rather than historical events. Sociology and history overlap somewhat but they are different fields and when wading into the area of historical events Piotowski is at best a knowledgable amateur, albeit one with a good grasp of a related but different field. Faustian 13:54, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
I still believe that his work is a good source for the article. Perhaps you should raise it at WP:RSN. Which specific claims of Piotrowski do you dispute at present?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  14:15, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
The first review you posted [4] stated, "most of the chapters are chock full of facts, tables, and long excerpts from other works and personal narratives. " A historian is trained to sort out the sources of historical information in order to determine which might be more or less credible, etc. A sociologist might not be. I don't know which of Piotrowski's statements are realistic and which are not. I do not suggest that he is dishonest or incompetant. I do not put him in the category of a propogandist such as Poliszczuk or the Siemaszkos. But in this case he is working in a field that is not his (even if there are some overlaps). When it comes to sensitive or possibly inflammatory information such that involving these tragic events, it is important to be extra careful to choose the best sources. To make an analogy, he is like a chemist writing a book on biology, on a theme he is personally interested in. Let's stick with biologists or perhaps elements of that chemist's biology book that deal excusively with chemistry. Let's limit citations from Piotrowski to those involving the sociodemographic aspects of the population groups involved, and such elements of the massacres rather than historical events.Faustian 15:24, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
That's an interesting argument. But are there any specific quotes / facts from his source we are discussing? On average, I'd treat him as an academic expert. Do note that the propagandists you note are in theory 'professional historians' - so we should not treat 'historian' as better than 'sociologist' by default.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  21:11, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
There have been some very pertinent books and studies done recnetly in Ukraine primarilly by Serhiychuk at Kyiv University. I have a couple of his books and remember reading one about this particular topic. I will try to borrow the book and go throught the information. I have Serhiychuk's book on the Vistula Action and also his book on the resettlement of Poles in Ukraine, but the book specifically dealing with Volyn I don't have.
It may be of value to include a section on the deportation of Poles from Ukraine in 1944, as this graeatly influences the population numbers. I also notice that the link to the children with the barbed wire hasn't been removed from the article despite having been shown by Polish researchers to have not been the actof UPA but the children of a Gypsy who had murdered her own children in 1926. It may be of value to document such exagerations and incorrect information so that they do not exacerbate and are not promulgated. Bandurist 15:45, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Bandurist, your suggestions are good, but I think both the question of 2 UPA's and deportations of Poles are good, but we should concentrate on the massacres, as the article is about them. Same with population of Volhynia - information is necessary, but let us not go into particulars, as this is not about demographics. And this sentence "Despite the Russian population being only 3%, Orthodox churches were forced to hold services in Russian rather than in Ukrainian." I do not think it has anything to do with Polish government's oppression of Ukrainians, it would make no sense for Warsaw to insist on Russian language (unless you have some sources). As for photo - remove the link, I have read that these kids are Gypsies. Tymek 17:26, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
I agree with what you say, but some info is needed. When dealing with a conflict it is easy to point the finger and say - he did it. Often what comes before the act is a raising of termpers by both sides until it erupts in something unthinkable. Regarding the Russianess of the Orthodox church in Volhyn, this was a continuation of Roman Dmowski's Russocentric thinking and leanings. Bandurist 20:14, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ukrainian population of Volyn

M. Siwicki (Zapysky siroho Volyniaka - Lviv 1996 - p.39) states that the census of 1931 was falsified. The Polish census stated that of the 2,085,574 people living in Volhyn only 1,428,341 (68.9%) were Ukrainian.

Siwicki further states Hernyk Josewski (Wspomnienia "Zeszyty historyczne' Paryz, 1982 nr 60 s. 72) stated that the true population was made up of Ukrainains 80%. Poles 16%. Significant numbers of Jews lived in the cities. There were some Russians and Czechs and Germans.

Education was in a terrible state. Basically the reverse of the population. In the middle schools 344 (14%) Ukrainians to 2599 Poles. Of the 80 Ukrainians who qualified to get into Tertiary studies only 3 were accepted in 1938/9. (Siwicki p.40)

The 1931 census gives 3,762,500 Orthodox christians in Vohlyn - 69% Ukrainian, 29 % Belorusan, 2-3% Russian, Czechs and Poles.

In 1926 at a conference regarding the Ukrainian problem the Polish minister of religion and education Antoni Sujkowski stated that that Volyn was 80% Ukrainian. (Siwicki p.63) In 1926 the Polish Policy called the "Volyn program" was announced by Josewski for the state assimilation of Volyn. The "Sokalski" administrative border was set up to stop the dissemination of literature from the more educated Ukrainians in Halychyna to Volyn.

Skorowidz miejscowosc Rzeczpospolitej Polskiej wedlug spisu z 30.IX.1921 r. wojewodstwo Wolynskie gives for the whole of Volyn: Roman Catholics - 1,666,512 Orthodox - 1,066,842 Poles - 240,922 Rusyns - 983,596

Siwicki (p 182) questions where 74, 410 Poles had appeared who were not Roman Catholic. From the statistics published Siwicki states that the accuracy of the 1931 census is in doubt.

Serhiychuk (Deportatsiya Poliakiv z Ukrainy Kyiv, 1999) gives population make up according to the Russian census for 1914 as: 1. Kovel area - P(oles) 4.59%, R(ussian) 3.83%, Ukr. 78.49%, Germ 0.90%, Jews 11.48%, other 5.79% 2. Kremenetz P=3%, R=3.37%, Uk=82.72, Jews=12.23, other 0.68% 3. Lutsk - P=9.7%, R=5.19%, Uk-59.96%, G-12%, Jews=14.13% other 2.02 4.Ostroh - P=6.61%, R=3.48%, Ukr 76.68%, Ger=8.94%, Jews=10.80. Other 1.94% 5. Rivne - P=9.19%, R=3.48%, Ukr=72/09%, Ger=8.94%, Jews 15.97% other 1.94% 6. Volodymyr Volynsk - P=9.19%, R. 3.48%, Ukr 72.09%, Ger 8.94%, jews 15.97, other 1.94 7. Dubno - P=6.51%, R=4.46%, Ukr 68.22, Ger 3.54, Jews 11.48, other 5.79%

altogether: 1. Kovel area - 4,100 Poles 2. Kremenetz - 9800 Poles 3. Lutsk - 13,300 Poles 4. Ostroh - 15,500 Poles 5. Rivne - 19,600 Poles 6. Volodymyr Volynsk - 22,000 Poles 7. Dubno - 9,900

Altogether 76,500 Poles in Volhyn (Serhiychuk p 4.)

Bandurist 11:17, 18 October 2007 (UTC) 01:12, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reconciliation

Reconciliation is a difficult topic to address, mainly because UPA (UIA) did not act on the orders of any Ukrainian government, and as a military formation has not been recognized by the current Ukrainain government. As a result officially there is nothing to apologise for as the current government of Ukraine has nothing directly to do with the actions. It is obviously sorry that such an act happened, but it was not responsible in any way. This should by all fairness be somehow mentioned in that section.

Keep in mind that there were 2 UPA's. The first was the Vohlynian organized by Taras Bulba-Borovetz and on the other side of the Sokalski border the Galician UPA which formed later and was under Bandera banner. Tey functioned and worked differently. Bandurist 11:17, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Obviously, current Ukrainian govt has nothing to do with the massacres, like current Polish government has nothing to do with Action Vistula, just like German govt has nothing to do with Nazi crimes. Yet they apologized, same with Gorbachow apologizing for Katyn. Tymek 17:30, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Your point I understand and support, however there is a slight difference. Action Vistula was a government action by the then Polish government, The Nazi war crimes were a government action by the then German government. The Katyn Massacre was a government action by the Soviet Communist government (which Gorbachov represented). These governments may have been totalitarian, however someone voted them in, (they didn't come into being with no support period) and the actions represent the direction and mentality of the then government. In this case, the UIA and the persons and groups responsible for these actions were not government sponsored organizations.

If you review for example the citizenship of the victims and the proponents you have another view. The Visla action was done by Poles to other Polish citizens of a different ethnicity. The Nazi crimes were done by a people agains other ethnicities and religions. The Katyn massacres were done to "allies", ie not to their own citizens, but to foreign soldiers and disarmed ones. All these actions were done from a situation of power against people with no course of defence. The Volhyn tragedy was done by Polish citizens (in this case of Ukrainian ethnicity) against Polish citizens (of Polish ethnicity) as a direct result and consequence of the Polish government policies implemented after 1926. Please excuse me if I am trying to split hairs here, but to me there is a significant difference.Bandurist 18:58, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

You are right, but how to solve this problem in the article? Perhaps you could write that Ukrainian govt does not feel responsible for the massacres (if it has been stated). Tymek 19:38, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
I don't want to interfere with the article. As it stands I feel I may have made people unhappy, however it should be noed that The UPA in Vohlyn and the UPA which was created in Galicia were different and ultimately would up fighting themselves at one time. There is the matter of Taras Bulba-Borovetz who was in charge of the Vohlyn UPA who emigrated to Canada and lived in Winnipeg and published his memoirs there. There is Dontsov who in his articles encited action rather than discussion who became a professor at Montreal University. There are so many significant links that have not been investigated or even mentioned. Then you have the fact that both UPAs have not been recognised by the Yushchenko government although attempts have been made to do so. On the one hand you have an Army that fought for the liberation of Ukraine which was Ukrainian speaking and made up of Ukrainians yet it is mired in such things. The Red army and other armieas are also "not 100% clean" because anything and verythng happens in war, however their reputation is established. In this case people are still doing the research. Bandurist 20:26, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
After some clashes, UPA-Volyn was forcibly absorbed into the OUN-dominated UPA of Galicia in I believe early 1943.Faustian 02:23, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Incorrect quotation

On August 25, 1943, German occupational authorities ordered all Poles to leave villages and settlements and move to bigger towns. Yuryi Kirichuk wrote that the Germans were egging both sides on each other. Erich Koch once said: "We have to do everything possible so that a Pole, while meeting a Ukrainian, would be willing to kill him and conversely, a Ukrainian would be willing to kill a Pole". Also, Kirichuk quotes a German commissioner from Sarny who, when Poles complained about massacres, answered: "You want Sikorski, the Ukrainians want Bandura. Fight each other". [10].

I thing the quotation needs to be checked. A BAndura is a musical instrument. Maybe they want Bandera here? - However Bandera was virtually unknown in Volyn. Bulba-Borets was the leader there. Bandurist 19:57, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

I misspelled it, instead of Bandera I wrote Bandura. Sometimes it is not easy, when you have two little kids jumping on your head. Tymek 22:18, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Oppression of Ukrainian minority in the Second Polish Republic

Even though this is an interesting subject, I think that too much attention was devoted to it in the article. This article is about Massacres, not about oppresion. Obviously, Oppression of Ukrainian minority in the Second Polish Republic should be mentioned, but not to such a large degree, together with state of the Orthodox Church in pre-1939 Poland, which has little to do with the subject. IMHO a separate article should be created, using information presented here and obviously linked with massacres. Therefore, I want to trim this section, and I am hoping that some Ukrainian editors will come up with an article about Oppression of Ukrainian minority in the Second Polish Republic. Waiting for opinions Tymek (talk) 17:40, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree. A paragraph in a background section, rather than an entire section of its own, would be appropriate. The oppression of the Ukrainian minority is an important topic on this page as it provides a context for the massacres that followed. The fact that 100,000-300,000 colonists were settled there, schools were closed, churches closed, people were terrorized by youths, etc. should be noted. But this can certainly be trimmed down to a paragraph, and the more detailed information can serve as the basis for a seperate article (the topic certainly deserves its own article)Faustian (talk) 18:07, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
One day we will have a comprehensive minorities in Poland article. That said, I agree with you. Due weight, subarticles are good, and so on.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 00:05, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Contradiction ? 300.000 Poles settled in Volhyn ? Soviets identified only 115.000 in whole Kresy region

The article takes claim by Ukrainian historian that up to 300.000 Poles were settled in Volhyn alone. The Osadnik article writes that Soviets identified only 115.000 as osadnicy and they included even people who bought the land themselfs.--Molobo (talk) 14:15, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I was going by Subtelny, who stated that according to Ukrainian historians 300,000 Poles settled in Volhynia and Galicia while according to Polish sources the number for both regions combined was 100,000. The article does not state in Volhynia alone.Faustian (talk) 14:35, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
Well those two regions are different, its not clear how much were in Volhyn and how much in Galicia, also there was settlement in Belarus region which is missed. Also Soviet sources give 115.000 Poles as settlers in the whole Kresy region. Seems a big contradiction to what Subtelny claims.--Molobo (talk) 14:38, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
Subtelny doesn't claim anything, he only reports the two figures, 300,000 and 100,000, for both regions combined. If you have a source that includes the total for Volhynia specifically, then put it in. If you have a reference for the Soviet figure, by all means add it. More, and more specific, information is a good thing.Faustian (talk) 15:44, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
Two hundred thousand Poles were settled in Western Ukraine according to Ярослав Грицак in his "History of Ukraine, 1772-1999: Birth of a New Nation". --Lysytalk 18:15, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] first sentence

Not sure about this, but wouldn't

"The Massacre of Poles in Volhynia was a campaign of ethnic cleansing conducted in Volhynia"

or an "act of" sound better than what is currently there? Ostap 04:27, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

I am not a native speaker, but IMO an act would refer to a single incident, while in Volhynia there was a series of incidents, which lasted for several months. My hunch is that a campaign better reflects what happened then. Tymek (talk) 20:50, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Actually the history Volhyn doesn't inform about tolerant policy period in per-war Poland

Henryk Józewski As voivode of Wołyń, where Ukrainians formed the majority of the population, Józewski concentrated on improving relations between the Polish government and Poland's Ukrainian minority. He advocated a broad autonomy for Ukrainian self-governance, promoted Ukrainians to administrative posts, and sought to ensure their fair representation in the government. His administration included many former activists of the Ukrainian People's Republic. Józewski fostered Ukrainian and Polish-Ukrainian organizations. In education, he supported the teaching of the Ukrainian language and argued for the introduction of Ukrainian as the local official language. He declared that the Ukrainian national movement must choose between Poland and the Soviet Union. He opposed Soviet influences over Poland's Ukrainians and criticized certain Ukrainian organizations that he viewed as too Soviet-dependent or too extremist (e.g. Prosvita).''

This policy ended in 1938. But the fact of this period is missing from the overview and presents onesided account that doesn't include all data. --Molobo (talk) 18:56, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Molobo, I will add the material "about tolerant policy period in per-war Poland" that brought about the OUN violence as soon as possible. --Irpen 02:32, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Lead

Molobo's lead is unacceptable. First, it calls the events "in Volhynia" and mentions Galicia in the very next sentence thus making it a logic contradiction.

Next, it is clear from the article that the violence was mutual. Finally, "ethnic cleansing" is a judgmental POV term. It can only be used in an attributed form in the main body and only if it clearly shown that this is an overwhelming mainstream view (like Shoah being genocide), it can be used in the lead. --Irpen 02:32, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Can you elaborate on the Galicia issue?
Violence was mutual - so was the violence during the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, with Jewish fighters shooting at the German soldiers. Please consider the proportions.
Ethnic cleansing is a term used in many scholarly publications; that said I support using an inline reference for it, there are plenty to chose from. As far as I am aware it represents indeed the overwhelming mainstream view, can you present refs to the contrary? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 02:38, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

On Galicia, the article correctly states that the violence took place in Galicia as well as in Volhynia. However, the first sentence in Molobo's version for some reason mentions Volhynia only

Warsaw Gherro comparison, Piotrus, brings up the Godwin's law. Jewish fighters took on Nazi soldiers. Polish fighters massacred Ukrainian villages. I hope you can see the difference. --Irpen 02:43, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

I retagged the article per no response. I hope there will be a discussion rather than another revert war. --Irpen 17:56, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

So, the article says (correctly) that the violence took place not just in Volhynia but also in Galicia. In fact, it was of a similar scale there. Thus, the first sentence definition (as well as the title) are simply misleading.

Second, the article correctly says that the violence was mutual and (Piotrus, please note) the AK violence was not limited to the fights with UPA fighters but also "fights" with Ukrainian women and children.

Next, I am totally taken aback by changing the section title to "more neutrally sounding" (as Piotrus claims) while disregarding how neutrally the article's title sounds. Since my edits are reverted with no explanation by familar editors who are taking turns, I tagged the article. Hopefully, some compromise could be found soon. --Irpen 18:01, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I generally agree with your points. With respect to the article title, the choice of the factually partially correct title involving Volyn seems to be driven by the fact that those events are collectively described as Volyn massacres or something like that in the Polish media (which is the media that most widely discusses those events). While massacre is a loaded word, there is a long list of wikipedia articles titled massacres when events are popularly referred to as such. I agree however that the ttile should reflect all victims. Perhaps a more nuetral title would be simply Volyn massacres rather than the current title; because the majority of victims were Polish civilians the body of the article would not change due to the change in title. Here's a link to a bbc article mentioning simply Volyn massacres: [5].
Given the popularity of the term "Volyn massacre", it wouldn't be inappropriate to use it as the article title although it should be mentioned in the lead that despite the name, the events also occurred in Galicia.Faustian (talk) 19:44, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] New lead and title

I would like to suggestthe following

Ethnic cleansing in Western Ukraine during WWII

Massacre of Poles in Volhynia was an act of ethnic cleansing that took place in Western Ukraine from 1943 to 1944 primarily against the Polish population in Volhynia (Polish: Wołyń) and later spread to Galicia. In the years before, tensions between the Polish and Ukrainians escalated. After the German invasion of the Soviet Union, the German administration encouraged ethnic violence between the inhabitants on the territories it administered. As a result it is estimated that tens of thousands of civilians were murdered by various military groups. Most of the killings took place in summer and autumn of 1943. Although the Polish population was the primary target, Ukrainian and Jewish civilians were also killed in the cycle of violence that erupted. The numerical estimates vary widely and have become a subject of scholarly as well as political debate.


This I think covers all the bases and is sufficiently NPOV for an encyclopedic article. Comments??? Bandurist (talk) 19:38, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand why your version omits the mention of Ukrainian Insurgent Army, the primary perpetrator of the killings? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 22:34, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Bandurist, Piotrus is right. There is no mention of who ethnically cleansed Volhynia of its Polish population and in this form the lead in unacceptable. I know your stance, you are Ukrainian, but please, this is going way too far. One might have the impression that Polish civilians were massacred by the Aliens. Tymek (talk) 00:37, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ethnic cleansing

I would like to suggest that the article be re-titled to ethnic cleansing in Vohlynia as the escalation of inter-ethnic conflict was not just confined to Poles but also included Ukrainians, Jews, Roma, and Czech's. Bandurist (talk) 11:11, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

The ethnic cleansing was concentrated on Polish civilians, but the title doesn't reflect this in either current or your proposed version. If you can show that ethnic cleansing is more often used in literature then massacres, I would have no objections. WP:RM is advised.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 17:58, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Maybe "Ethnic cleansing in Western Ukraine" This would cover both Vohlynia, Galicia and the various nationalities that suffered. Bandurist (talk) 19:24, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Is this title used in literature of the subject? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 19:45, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
I think simply Volyn massacres would be most appropriate, per my comments in the previous section.Faustian (talk) 19:47, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

How about Inter-ethnic violence in Western Ukraine, 1943-1944? --Irpen 20:33, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

And this is used by what publications, exactly? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 22:21, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Ever heard of descriptive title that simply reflect the content? Because otherwise, "which publications exactly" use "Soviet repressions of Polish citizens (1939-1946)"? --Irpen 22:23, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Again, Volyn massacres seem most appropriate given what is said in the literature. This would encompass the massacre of Ukrainians by Poles. The real problem that massacres occurred in Galicia (thus rendering the title Volyn massacres technically incorrect) could immediately be dealt with in the lead, with a statement such as, "although these events are popularly referred to as the Volyn massacres, the killing of large numbers of civilians also occured in Galicia..."Faustian (talk) 22:24, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
User:Faustian's proposal is good. Ostap 22:27, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Please check our policies: Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names), Wikipedia:Naming conventions (precision). Massacres of Poles in Volhynia seems much more common then other names. That said, I am not insisting on 'of Poles', as noted - Jews and Ukrainians (and individuals of mixed ethnicity) were also among the victims.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 22:31, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
I don't get it. Are Galicia events marginal, unimportant, of a significantly lesser scale or what? Do you want a separate article for them? Why if so? Are they sufficiently unrelated? If not and if they are to be covered here, it just makes no sense to have the title that makes a misleading impression. Where they all "Polish citizens" by anyone's book. If the Ukrainians of former Eastern Poland are to be considered as much "Polish citizens" as the Poles even after Poland's demise, was not it a Massacre by Polish citizens of each other? I just don't understand why some love to use massacres in titles. --Irpen 02:29, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Forgive me for being sarcastic, but why not change Holocaust into Ethnic cleansing in Europe? Guys, let us be serious, we all know what happened in Volhynia back then and who was the victim. Changing history is pointless, I am not saying that the Poles always treated the Ukrainians in proper way, but here we face indescribable event in which Ukrainian nationalists massacred thousands of civilians, kids and women alike. I am insisting on Poles in the title, as for massacres perpetrated by Poles on Ukrainians, there should be another article written. We do not put German and Soviet atrocities on each other in the same bag. Tymek (talk) 04:14, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
While obviously Poles were the main victims (by 4:1 or 5:1) and the article should reflect that, the massacres of Poles and Ukrainians are linked and fed off one another. The murder of Polish and Ukrainian civilians were discussed together in this excellent article: [6]. Putting Poles in the title would be appropriate if the article only dealth with Poles. However, since some Ukrainians were also massacred by Ukrainian nationalists, and Ukrainians were massacred by Poles, in events that occurred at about the same time and were linked, creating different articles would seem to be artificial or inapropriate IMO.Faustian (talk) 13:43, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm slowly reading through the materials on the subject. In many ways it reminds me of a dispute between two children on a playground.

  • T) Who started it -
  • 1) He did because of this. -
  • 2) But he did that and that. -
  • 1) But he did this before,
  • 2) But he did that before that.

This particular conflict is a typical continuing spiral of conflict escalation. The outcome was tragic. Questions remain - from where did the conflict start, and from where should the article start. Obviously, a massacre of such proportions did not happen overnight for no reason.

What lessons can be gained from the event? Why was such an event allowed to happen?

Sure, you can support the title "Massacre of Poles in Volhynia", but it does not adequately describe the event? The title "Massacre of Poles in Volhynia" maybe the accepted title in the Polish version of Wikipedia, but I do not believe that it adequately describes the events and is all inclusive for the English version, which should have a NPOV and be all inclusive.

1) The title does not reflect the fact that this sort of ethnic cleansing of Ethnic Poles also encompased Galicia, Kholmshchyna, Pidliashshia. 2) The title does not include the other ethnic groups who were affected by the events, some of whom were percentage wise more affected than the Poles. In particular the Jewish population, which as larger than the Polish population in the cities of Western Ukraine were affected even more than the Poles. 3) I also feel that the current title is being aggressively adhered to in order to continue a particular POV, but that is just an opinion. Bandurist (talk) 11:08, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Basically, what I see is that some editors want to change the whole structure of the article, mixing different events and putting them in the same bag. This article deals specifically about sufferings of Poles in Volhynia, and franky speaking, I do not see why it should include other subjects. Jews - sure, a mention is good, but it should be covered by the Holocaust. Czechs - well, I saw somewhere that 300 of them died, a mention is desired, but changing of the title? This is an exaggeration. Ukrainians and their sufferings - I have no objection to creating a separate article, or expansion of Operation Wisla. Nobody writes or suggests a joint article about sufferings of civilian population of Germany and civilian population of Soviet Union. Keep it as it is, there is a link to Oppression of Ukrainians in the 2nd Polish Republic, which should also include terrorist tactics of Ukrainian groups (somewhow it doesn't) I do not see the need for such a drastic change and there is no need to create a mega-article, which would deal with all different subjects. Tymek (talk) 18:31, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
The article on The Holocaust also includes not only Jews but also Poles, other Slavs, gypsies, etc. If four villages of Poles were massacred and at about the same time one Ukrainian village was, why should all of these events be split into separate articles?Faustian (talk) 18:36, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
I don't support a split now, but I am sure at some point we may need a separate subarticle dealing with suffering of only Ukrainian population (just as we have WWII articles about suffering of only Poles, or only Jews, for example).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 19:00, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
I recall a political cartoon about the conflict in former Yugoslavia, with "I am killing you because your grandfather killed my grandmother...". As Bandurist say, everybody was guilty. We should be thankful this is behind us - and that we can discuss this calmly and in good faith (btw, I will say that my opinion of Ukrainians and Ukrainian editors is constantly rising, due to my good interactions and experiences with them on Wiki :). As I said before, I would not object to removing 'of Poles'; however unless it can be shown that a significant amount of killings took place outside Volhynia, I'd support keeping this name, as it is the one more commonly used to identify this event (consider, for example, a random massacre in village x: some killings might have taken place outside it, but we don't speak 'massacre in village x and the valley behind it'; same for battles and such). Heck, Napoleon's invasion of Russia could be described as "Napoleon's and his forces invasion of Russia, Russian partitioned Poland, Russian controlled Cossack territories and whatsnot" - but we are not going to be renaming it, are we? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 18:59, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I understand where you are coming from, however I cannot agree with you. I feel the current title is somewhat inflamatory, in particularly when considering some members of our reading community. By changing the title, we will not only avoid inflamatory edit wars in the future but in my opinion more accurately depict the various sides of this tragedy. Keep in mind that such topics have been used by various scholars to actually escalate anatagonisms which still exist and are alove out there in the community.

Regarding your comments re Ukrainian editors I would like to recipricate. It is much more pleasurable to discuss differences than to have stuff shoved down your throat, which seems to be happening with some topics dealing with Russian Ukrainian relations. I prefer the more "European" approach.


The Serhiychuk book is very intersting. He has reproduced a large number of previously secret documents, in particular (from what I am currently reading, documents pertaining to the organised wholesale deportation of Poles from Volhynia signed by Krushchev (with others). After I have had time to chew on the materials I will post them for your perousal.


Re Napoleon's invasion of Russia and "Napoleon's and his forces invasion of Russia, - I don't think that such topics are as loaded as topics using terms like massacre or genocide. Personally I find such terms and their implications quite distasteful.

Having said that. It is your article. All I want to do is have you consider another title for the reasons I listed above. Bandurist (talk) 20:58, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Bandurist, with all due respect, I really do not think that this title is inflammatory. These massacres are an established fact, as well as victims of them. I am repeating myself again - the article presents the fate of Poles in that land, there is no need to split it, divide it or rename. It was not a clash of two armies, it was an act of ethnic cleansing of medieval character. I am glad that those times are over, and as a fan of soccer, I am looking forward to Polish-Ukrainian Euro 2012, but we must not change history. There is an article about a different massacre, this time commited by the Poles, and its title should also remain unchanged. Tymek (talk) 03:26, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Tymek, it's fine to have separate village massacre articles. But here we are talking about mutual interethnic violence when UPA burned Polish villages and AK burned the Ukrainian ones. This is not about separate villages but about an interethnic conflict where Ukrainians, admittedly, had for a short period an upper hand. Splitting this into "Ukrainian Massacre of Poles" and the "Polish massacre of Ukrainians" is POV forking in its most textbook form. The article should cover the whole violence and be clear that more Polish civilians were murdered in this set of events than the Ukrainian ones (no one denies this fact.) --Irpen 03:30, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Irpen, in Volhynia the Ukrainians had the advantage all the time. Poles took revenge elsewhere, like in southern part of Lublin Voivodeship, but the article does not cover that area. In Volhynia it was not mutual, one side attacked and murdered another. Tymek (talk) 00:45, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
Indeed. For example when researching Zamość Uprising I also found information about the German plan to resettle some Ukrainians in the region; the plan failed as the Polish resistance took control of the region and the Germans were forced to protect Ukrainian colonists as much as their own German ones.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 17:22, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Irpen: "The article should cover the whole violence and be clear that more Polish civilians were murdered in this set of events than the Ukrainian ones (no one denies this fact.)" - true, but there is one more difference: the murders done by Ukrainians were largely a result of a organised, planned action of ethnic cleansing and that fact alone means that there should be a separate article about that particular action. VivecPL (talk) 19:20, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Except that no documentation exists of plans to actually murder large number of Poles.Faustian (talk) 21:27, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
So far no documents have been found, but seriously, I do not believe that this campaign was not pre-organized. I cannot imagine those illiterate peasants from Volhynia, living in scattered villages in the woods and swamps, to prepare everything by themselves from scratch, especially the events of July 11, 1943, which were coordinated and covered a large area with no roads and no railroads. We know that peasants of Volhynia considered themselves Russian rather than Ukrainian well into the XX century. My opinion is that the idea of massacres was brought to them by the well-educated, nationalist-minded activists from Eastern Galicia and they joined it, perhaps not because they followed mad, bloody policies of Ukrainian organizations from Galicia (getting rid of all Poles), but because they saw it as an opportunity to loot some goods. I am emphasizing - this is only my opinion. Tymek (talk) 23:12, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Faustian: there is some documentation, which does prove that OUN/UPA did order ethnic cleansing and some form of mass murder of civilian population, although it does not prove that they've ordered genocide.

From "Trudne Sąsiedztwo - Stosunki polsko-ukraińskie w X-XX wieku",Karol Grunberg and Bolesław Sprengel, Warsaw 2005, translation from Polish:

Fragment 1:

"In June of 1943, OUN-SD ordered the UPA command to 'Without delay and as fast as possible finish the action of total cleansing of Ukrainian territory of Polish population' "

Fragment 2:

"The goal of such pogroms were clearly defined in the secret directive of the territorial UPA command "Pivnich" [Piwnicz]: 'We should conduct a great action of elimination of Polish element. After the departure of German troops, we should utilise this convinient moment to eliminate all male population aged from 16 to 60 years(...) forest villages and villages near large forest masses should disappear from the face of the earth' "

In the light of these two fragments, especially the second one, it's obvious that at least some kind of ethnic cleansing and mass murder of civilians was premeditated - though the second fragment does indirectly suggest that women,children and old men were to be spared, murdering all males aged 16-60 is still mass murder of civilians. VivecPL (talk) 04:07, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I may be wrong here - I don't have time to check now - but the second quote may have come from a "confession" told under NKVD interogation by a captured UPA-North fighter who worked directly under Klym Savur (the head of UPA-North). I have read a confession with similar theme in a massive on-line publication by the Institute of History of the Ukrainian Academy of Sciences; the work notes the fact that the information was obtained through torture (implying he may have said what his torturers/interogators wanted to hear). Piotrowski described the same confession but completely ommitted the facts of how it was obtained, merely stating what was said as if it were the truth, which seems rather misleading of Piotrowski. There is no doubt that UPA ordered the forced removal of Poles from Volynian territory; this is well documented. But despite many UPA documents having been found, including secret ones, documents describing killing of political enemies, "traitors", communists, etc. no document exists showing orders to kill Polish civilians

(although documents include confessions by UPA fighters that they have killed Polish civilians). The mass scale of the massacres means that UPA must have participated, there's just no evidence that this was a policy ordered from the top.Faustian (talk) 04:18, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Nice sources

Thanks Faustian for catching it. Piotrus insists on using sources that say (from Faustian's talk):

"...Ukrainian genocide was characterized as a rule by tortures of the utmost barbarity. These reached back to the Cossack traditions of the XVII th and XVIII th centuries (the Khmelnitsky Uprising 12 and the uprising of 1768 called "kolistchyzna"13), with the methods in use at that time - hacking Poles and Jews with axes, throwing wounded victims into wells, sawing people alive, horse-dragging, eye-gouging, pulling out of tongues, and other atrocities 14. Such acts of barbarity were not as a rule employed by the Germans or even the Soviets. Of course there were beatings and frequently bestial cruelty during interrogations 15 or in concentration camps (where this was accompanied' by starvation and backbreaking work, sometimes criminal medical experimenlation in German camps, etc.), but it was not usual for the murder thal took place there to be combined with the cutting off or pulling out of parts of the body, sawing, ripping open of the stomach, disembowelment, and so on 16"

Well, what can I say. By the author's rating the degree of evilness increases from Germans to Soviets and further to Ukrainians. Nice source indeed. And it is restored again. What scholars are we to see next? --Irpen 22:03, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Good question. What Ukrainian scholars are we citing? PS. Could you translate and comment on this image? I wonder if it should be added to the reconciliation section. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 22:20, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Piotrus, the source quote above is not Ukrainian. It is Siemaszko, Siemaszko, and Szawlowski. So, you push scholars who say the horrific stuff above and invoke the message from the moder Ukrainian National-Socialists as what? Did anyone added them as sources? --Irpen 23:01, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Transtating per your request:

Poland Repent! Volhynia remembers the burned out villages. During the occupation of Volhynia by Poles more than 100,000 Ukrainians were murdered. Signed by "Volhynian regional organization of the Social-National Party of Ukraine (address), Volhynian Sich of the Zaporozhian Host."

Does not look reconciliatory to me. --Irpen 22:32, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Exactly. Both Polish and Ukrainians have their extremists, thus I ask again - can more sources be presented about the reliability of the Ukrainian POV? Who are the reliable Ukrainian scholars studying this issue, and who are the less reliable ones? For the record, I support creating a historiography section, where we should note that authors such as Poliszczuk, Prus or Siemszko's are of lower reliabity than Wnuk, Motyka or Torzecki. But we should also not equal of them; for example it appears that works by Siemaszko's are considered better than those of Poliszczuk.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 22:35, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Except that no one is citing "the Social-National Party of Ukrainian, Volhynian Sich of the Zaporozhian Host".Faustian (talk) 22:54, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
While some cite "Siemaszko, Siemaszko, and Szawlowski". --Irpen 23:03, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
As soon as you present academic criticism of such sources, we can consider removing them from this article.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 23:39, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
That's a high burden of proof - Szawlowski may not get the attention of say a Poliszczuk. I wonder if any academics have criticized the Volhynian Sich of the Zaporozhian Host. If not, should we include that organization's writings as a source? How about this - before including info from a source that states that from better to worse were Germans, Soviets, and Ukrainians, how about some academic sources that state that the source (such as Szawlowski) is okay.Faustian (talk) 23:43, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
How about we use common sense? Ostap 23:50, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
With regards to Siemaszko's, I've given you refs to reviews on talk. I have no idea who Szawlowski is? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 23:57, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

The most recent scholarly materials that I know of are primarily Volodymyr Serhiychuk's books from Kyiv. I recently got a copy of "Поляки на Волині у роки другої світової війни" published by the Kyiv state University in 2003. He has another interesting book - about the Deportation of Poles from Ukraine which was published in 1999 which I used for an article not long ago about Polish deportations. I'm gradually working my way through the book. Another interesting book is Mykola Siwicki's book Записки сірого Волиняка published in Lviv in 1996 which is also very interestingBandurist (talk) 02:53, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. We should probably cite those works in the article, at least in the further reading section. It is currently dominated by Polish sources.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 02:55, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Who is responsible for the massacres?

There is a prevalent notion in Poland that the UPA is responsible for the slaughter of Poles in Volhynia. Poles do not know about different fractions within the UPA as well as different Ukrainian paramilitary organizations, existing then. Perhaps Ukrainian editors would be able to clear this out here on talk. Norman Davies leaves no doubt and states clearly that it was the UPA. Tymek (talk) 16:57, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

As seen on the UPA article, there were gangs of armed bandits (Ukrainian and Polish - presumably the Ukrainian ones were the ones who would have killed Polish civilians) avoiding military service who didn't belong to UPA or AK who looted or robbed or killed people. Both UPA and AK sometimes used deadly force against these bandits. Also, Ukrainian peasants who weren't members of UPA were documented killing Polish civilians.Faustian (talk) 17:23, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
The question, then is: was UPA the major driving force behind such actions? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 18:10, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
Serhiychuk also mentions and publishes documents where various non-military groups killed Poles i Vohlynia. In the documents that I have so far seen there has been no evidence that the UPA (Bandera faction) which took over in Volhynia had blatantly ordered any ethnic cleansing operations, although I have come across documents regarding punitive actions. Bandurist (talk) 23:56, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
From "Trudne Sąsiedztwo - Stosunki polsko-ukraińskie w X-XX wieku",Karol Grunberg and Bolesław Sprengel, Warsaw 2005, translation from Polish:
Fragment 1:
"In June of 1943, OUN-SD ordered the UPA command to 'Without delay and as fast as possible finish the action of total cleansing of Ukrainian territory of Polish population' "
Fragment 2:
"The goal of such pogroms were clearly defined in the secret directive of the territorial UPA command "Pivnich" [Piwnicz]: 'We should conduct a great action of elimination of Polish element. After the departure of German troops, we should utilise this convinient moment to eliminate all male population aged from 16 to 60 years(...) forest villages and villages near large forest masses should disappear from the face of the earth' " VivecPL (talk) 19:12, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

What were the original source documents these excerpts were taken from? Bandurist (talk) 22:16, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

1) If I understand it correctly, the Wikipedia's "NOR" policy means that we do not have to determine what documents were used by a historian in order to have the historian's work taken in account.

2) Nevertheless, I checked the book again and found out that Grunberg&Sprengel took it from works of Władysław Filar, without providing where Filar took that from.

3) Incidentally, I've found a website where some fragments from Filar's works are posted, complete with footnotes:

http://www.lwow.com.pl/semper/wolyn.html

The fragment #1 I've posted is not there, but we have section of text containing my "fragment #2":

'W tajnej dyrektywie terytorialnego dowództwa UPA - "Piwnycz", podpisanej przez "Kłyma Sawura" (Roman Dmytro Klaczkiwśkyj) czytamy: "(...) powinniśmy przeprowadzić wielka akcję likwidacji polskiego elementu. Przy odejściu wojsk niemieckich należy wykorzystać ten dogodny moment dla zlikwidowania całej ludności męskiej w wieku od 16 do 60 lat(...) Tej walki nie możemy przegrać, i za każdą cenę trzeba osłabić polskie siły. Leśne wsie oraz wioski położone obok leśnych masywów powinny zniknąć z powierzchni ziemi". 17.'

Where the source 17 is "Archiwum SBU Obwodu Wołyńskiego, d. nr 11315, t. l, cz. H, s.16."VivecPL (talk) 04:30, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Much appreciated. I'm just curious whether these were written and published directives from the historic time period or materials gathered aurally (hence secret) during the interrogation process. (talk) 11:05, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Questions

I have a few questions to those involved, thank you all in advance for helping out.

  • has anybody been punished for these massacres? Not only average peasants-murderers, but also leaders of this campaign of ethnic cleansing?
  • does this sad topic ever appear in Ukrainian mass-media? Do people talk about it? Do they know about what happened?
  • does anybody know more about ethnic Czech village of Kupiczow (some 30 kilometers south of Kovel), with 3000 inhabitants, which also was attacked by the UPA but managed to defend itself with help from the Poles?
  • also, this is not about Volhynia, but still interesting. The town of Kuty was the center of Polish Armenian community. In January of 1944 the UPA murdered some 500 people there, Poles and Armenians alike, those who survived settled in Oborniki Slaskie. Does anybody know more about this massacre?

Thank you again Tymek (talk) 19:00, 24 May 2008 (UTC).

This deals with Ukrainians in the West, but is an excellent and informative article on the topic: [7]. regardsFaustian (talk) 01:52, 25 May 2008 (UTC)