Talk:Massacre of Lviv professors

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Contents 1 Participation of OUN in Massacre of Lwów professors 2 Most of the Jewish inhabitants of the city were shot on the spot 3 composed of the SS, police and field gendarmerie under the command of SS officers 4 Wolisch or Walisch? 5 Ukrainian point of view

[edit] Participation of OUN in Massacre of Lwów professors

In the night of July 3/4, 1941, between 10 p.m. and 2 a.m. several units composed of the SS, police and field gendarmerie under the command of SS officers rushed into private homes of the professors of the higher academic institutions and arrested all men above 18 years of age found in their houses. ZYGMUNT ALBERT THE MURDER OF LWÓW PROFESSORS BY GERMAN AUTHORITIES IN JULY 1941

and

http://www.vesna.org.ua/txt/grytsakj/formuv/r5.html
Звичайно, це не знімає питання про участь окремих українців у воєнних злочинах проти інших національностей, зокрема проти поляків. Але й тут попри спаведливі звинувачення можна зустріти перебільшення і навіть явні видумки. У першу чергу це стосується міфів про причетність українських націоналістів до розстрілу групи польських професорів у Львові (липень 1941 р.) та про участь дивізії СС "Галичина" у придушенні Варшавського повстання. Щодо першої акції, то вона була брутальною реалізацію тези Гітлера, що на одній землі не може і не повині існуватидвох панів – німців і поляків – і тому польську інтеліґенцію належить винищити. Львівський розстріл належить до того ж ряду подій, щой розправа з краківськими професорами у листопаді 1939 р. Документальні матеріали і спогади свідків доводять видуманність тези, що вбивство львівських професоорів здійснили українці (невиясненним, однак, залишається питання, чи українські студенти були причетні до складання списку страчених, і, якщо так, то чи робили це вони з власної ініціативи а чи на вимогу ґестапо) [34] [34] Kazn profesorow lwowskich. Lipiec 1941. Studia oraz relacje i dokumenty zebrane i opracowane przez Zygmunta Alberta, Wroclaw, 1989. -- Yakudza 09:59, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Blanking the piece of the article is rarely a way to go (it may be correct sometimes but not usually). Add an alternative view and/or say what's wrong with this one if you think so. There is plenty of the writing that say to the contrary. Check refs in the Himka's article I posted at talk:Lviv. "There has been almost no attempt on the part of the Ukrainian diaspora to confront the issue of war criminality in a less defensive and more soul-searching manner." --Irpen 18:19, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

I have taken this phrase out of article since she has a no relations to murder professor. This appropriately in article about OUN, Nachtigal or histories Lviv. I did not rely on on publications the Ukrainian diaspora, but on title of the polish historian Zygmunta Alberta. The Reference to this article with site http://www.lwow.home.pl/ was brought earlier, and text was written on its base in Wikipedia. The Fragment on ukrainian is also founded on article Zygmunta Alberta. His author, not representative diaspora, but liberal ukrainian historian Grytsak. --Yakudza 07:41, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Ok, you made a good case to challenge the piece. I think we should place the "factual dispute" tag on the article for now and wait a bit for responces and refs that support the current version. If there is none, we'll remove the piece and the tag. I will place a tag right now. Deleting at once from such a controvercial topic is a bad idea. See Wikipedia:Be_bold_in_updating_pages#...but_don.27t_be_reckless.21 --Irpen 08:40, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

I find it quite hard to understand Yakudza's English, but I'll try. As to the Ukrainian complicity in the crimes of summer of 1941 - there are zillions of documents on them. As to the case of this particular crime, such complicity is indeed mentioned only briefly in the article by Wacław Szybalski. However, it is mentioned in the collection of documents by Zygmunt Albert, as well as by Lanckorońska in her memoirs (both in her description of situation in Lwów itself and later in Stanisławów). The biography of Boy-Żeleński also mentions it (though briefly) and it's partially available online (in Polish). I really don't know how one can prove that there was no complicity and that the Ukrainian units were not there. Especially that it is quite well-established fact that the OUN collaborated with the Abwehr even before the war and that many Ukrainians (including the chiefs of OUN themselves) initially saw the Germans as liberators and tried to aid them any way they could. Of course, with time such tactics proved to be but a dream of independent Ukraine, but still the collaboration was quite strong, even until the end of WWII (mostly by Melnykist faction). Halibutt 09:23, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

First of all biting the newbies who are making a good-faith effort and especially criticising their English (as well as anyone else's) is rather rude. To the issue, I standrartized Yakudza's ref and moved it to ref list where it belongs. He brought up an academic work where the participation of Ukrainian nationalists in this particular massacre is challenged (not overall existence of collaboration). Still, a number of books that claim to the contrary warrants mention of Ukrainian participation. On the other hand, I would add a word, that these accounts are not universally agreed upon (unless, of course, we have sufficient grounds to discredit the text by Hrytsak). --Irpen 17:07, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

You got me wrong, I was not biting a newbie and it was not my intention to critisize his English. I was merely explaining myself in case I got some of his comments wrong. As to the rest of your comment - totally agreed. Halibutt 00:30, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

"Роланд" і "Нахтіґаль", складених з членів ОУН-б (Hrytsak). Xx236 14:21, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Most of the Jewish inhabitants of the city were shot on the spot

Not "most". Xx236 14:05, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] composed of the SS, police and field gendarmerie under the command of SS officers

Rather not SS. Xx236 14:06, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wolisch or Walisch?

Xx236 14:28, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Some of the online sources cite his name as Wolisch. The pre-war business registry suggests that he might've been either Chaim Wolisch who owned a fabric store at Wałowa 2 street or Adolf Wolisch who had a clothing store at Skarbkowska 5. Check for instance [1], [2], [3], [4], [5]...

On the other hand this source states that his name was Walisch and that he owned the "Beier i Ska" shop, not listed in the 1929 registry. Halibutt 15:00, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ukrainian point of view

Government commission for researching OUN-UPA's activity was created in Ukraine. Official report of Ukrainian historians mentions the case: it is said that there was an investigation about the massacre in Hamburg in 1966 and it was proved that brigadenfuhrer Schoengart had been responsible for the crime.

Moreover, this is confirmed by Zygmunt Albert in his article "Murder of Lwow professors" (the external link):

"Many Poles still think that the professors were massacred by the Ukrainians. If this were so, the Hamburg prosecutor would not have admitted after the war that it was done by his fellow countrymen - the Germans. When Helena Krukowska lodged a complaint at the Ludwigsburg Court concerning the murder of her husband Wlodzimierz and other professors, Prosecutor Below replied that those guilty of the murder were: Himmler, Frank, Schöngarth, SS-Standartenführer Heim and probably SS-Hauptscharführer Horst Waldenburger, but they were no longer alive and the remaining guilty individuals were still being sought. The prosecutor admitted that only the firing squad consisted of Ukrainians dressed in SS uniforms".