Talk:Mass murder

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[edit] God..

What is God doing on a list of Mass Murderers? I at first assumed it was vandalism but since I couldn't be sure, I came here. Can someone shed light on this?17:37, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I think it is because God is responsible for all deaths. I am not sure as well.

[edit] Old talk

I propose to move the atrocity examples from the controversial genocide page here. Howere a given incident of a government killing hundreds of thousands (or millons) of people should be classified legally, it can still be listed here. Ed Poor

Gregory Sulface is responsible for this. I agree; however there are border-line cases; for instance I don't think that the 1994 Hebron massacre is an act of genocide (any more than suicide bombings - but of course it is an example of a Mass Murder), but I fear an edit war will start over it just out of principle. --Uri

I don't propose removing events from the genocide page to put here, just putting a note on the genocide page that because of a technicality, killing one's own people or killing people for political or cultural reasons is not actually genocide. User:Fredbauder

Given that the term genocide has a specific legal definition which is different from popular usage (or my own ideosyncratic usage, perhaps) -- I vote that we move all "non-genocide" massacres out of the genocide article and put them into the mass murder article. --Ed Poor

One problem with "mass murder" as a word for this, is that if I grab a gun and run around a shopping centre and shoot dead fifty people, then I'd commonly be called a mass murderer. If I'm the evil global dictator who decides that a billion must die, then you are proposing to call me a mass murderer also--but the guy who kills fifty people in a shopping centre isn't even in the same league as me. My crime doesn't just involve more people--it involves so many more people that its a qualitiatively different phenomena. Which is why I propose we use "democide" -- I know its not a very common term (not yet at least), but it is better than either "genocide" (since killing a billion is not necessarily genocide) or "mass murder" (since killing fifty people in a shopping centre is also mass murder, but is totally different from killing a billion. -- SJK

  • I also support "democide" over "mass murder" for similar reasons: democide is a narrower, more specific term, referring to the killing of numbers of people by a government. That is a wholly different phenomena from slaughter by a criminal or criminal organization. If the Mafia gun down 50 people, it's a crime and an outrage, but it's one likely to be agressively prosecuted by the government of the region where it occurred. If a government guns down 50 people, who will call them to account? (These days, sometimes the international community will, but that has mixed application and mixed success.) That's why I believe it to be qualitatively different, as well as (often) quantitatively. -- April
In terms of calling governments to account, I hope we don't accidentally choose an obscure term which makes this harder. Nearly every mention of "genocide" I've heard in my life has referred to government murder of huge numbers of civilians -- not because they wanted to destroy an ethnic group -- to suppress opposition to the government and its policiies. Stalin starved 5 million Ukra[i]nian farmers. MUST we quibble over whether to call this genocide, democide, mass murder, a "purge", etc? I suspect that a tactic of groups who wish to avoid criticism for their activities, is to change the meaning of terminology -- then sidetrack all criticism into debate about the correct term to use. So I'll be glad when we settle this usage question. --Ed Poor

I suggest we just use Rummel's term. Of course, we should add a disclaimer like "There is no ideal term for the murder of very large numbers (thousands, millions) of people in the English language. The term 'genocide' is often used, but genocide (according to the generally accepted definition) only applies to killings motivated by a desire to exterminate an ethnic or religious group. The term 'mass murder' does not have this problem, but 'mass murder' is also used to refer to the murder of a smaller group of people (dozens or less) by an individual or a small group. The term 'democide' does not generally suffer from these problems, but it is a recent coinage and has not yet been accepted into general English usage."

One problem though is that democide doesn't apply to killing thousands or millions in all cases either. It only applies when governments do it. Of course, few other than governments have the resources to murder millions--but I don't think the term "democide" could be applied to a nuclear attack by terrorists (unless they had some state's support or backing--which they probably would need in practice, but might not), or to some technician fixing an ICBM who thinks it would be fun to watch it launch. Of course, since nothing like this has happened yet (unless Sept 11 meets the numbers threshold for democide, and they had government support anyway), this is a rather theoretical issue. --- SJK

Democide is not in general usage in the English language. Mass murder is and its meaning is generally understood. User:Fredbauder ____ This is a very confused article. It has managed to confuse the act of mass murder with the motivations for the act. Genocide may be an underlying motivation for mass murder, and it should be so noted. More detailed discussion of genocide should be moved to genocide. Eclecticology 08:42 Jan 13, 2003 (UTC)

I changed "ethnic groups" to "ethnic and other groups." The Khmer Rouge murder of intellectuals was not ethnically based (though the massacre of Chams and other minorities was). Similarly, political purges (Stalin, Mao, etc.) are not necessarily ethnic based. Personally, I prefer calling these democide, rather than genocide, but admittedly, the term is not sufficiently current. Another term, omnicide, refers to victims of massive attacks, such as the Japanese killed at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Again the term is not sufficiently current, but it does help to distinguish betwene motivations. Danny

I am putting a stop to this silly edit war. I am restoring the version from 19:49, 12 Feb 2004 - posted before you had revert-after-revert - as a stopgap. I suggest a compromise that leaves the US in the article, but keeps the word "terrorist." Hector should not remove the word "terrorist" until he garners enough support for his position that calling the 9/11/01 attacks acts of "terrorism" goes against Wiki policy laid out in the Wikipedia:Words to avoid page. 172 00:22, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I question your neutrality in this conflict. It is also absurd to include the US entry under "mass murder", as is obvious if you possess the knowledge you claim to. You even "restored" (before protecting) a link typo. Great call! -- VV 03:21, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)
It's policy to go to the version posted before the edit war, even if it includes mistakes. Your charges of "bias" are also silly. The last version posted before the back-and-forward edit was is probably going to piss you both off. It includes both the U.S. paragraph and the use of the word "terrorist." You both could accuse me of bias.
Users often determine which articles they will edit randomly by using the recent changes feature. They do not want the screen clogged up by a couple of users playing a tit-for-tat edit war day after day. Since administrators are here to alleviate conflict, admins can use the protection feature to encourage compromise.
Now, you will have to try reasoning with Hector, rather than automatically revert all his changes and insult him. On a related note, I also left him a note urging him to discuss the use of the word "terrorist" on the mailing list. I urged him to stop unilaterally removing it from the 9/11-related pages for now. Let's see if all this works. 172 03:32, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Who the heck is Sean Stevenson? Can someone provide a definition for this kid who supposedly committed these murders? The only reference I find to him on Internet searches are references to this article.

Seconded. I'm removing this section and putting it here: (anon) 08:06, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
It can also, in rare cases, be a child (usually a male adolescent) who kills his parents and siblings. One example is Sean Stevenson, a sixteen year-old from Washington State who, on New Year's Day 1987, shot to death his parents and raped and killed his eighteen year-old sister. He was caught after talking of the murders to his girlfriend and inviting her to flee with him to Mexico.

[edit] lifting protection

Since Hector hasn't been around for the past couple of days, I'm lifting the protection. See User talk:RickK for further details. IMHO, VV owes me an apology there. 172 08:02, 17 Feb 2004 (UTC)

VV: Protecting page once again. You would not get into so many ideological edit wars if you had the courtesy to explain your actions on the talk page. 172 12:00, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I am posting the 06:03, 7 Feb 2004 version for the time being. The only proper channel for resolving these disputes is the talk page. 172 12:06, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)
You're almost parodying yourself here. Neither Wik nor Tannin explained their edits on the talk page, while I did explain mine in the edit summary and on User talk:RickK. Yet you accuse only me in this conflict, and, to further sully your credibility, you continue to call "ideological" my attempt to maintain the integrity of Wikipedia's entries (in this case, including removing a line you yourself said wasn't appropriate). -- VV 21:01, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Why don't you start discussing content issues? How does the edit war get resolved by diverting attention to me? After all, I'm not involved in the content dispute. 172 23:38, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I am not diverting attention, I am answering your absurd charges. I already discussed the content issues, as I just said. You just never notice my comments. -- VV 03:40, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Well, then resolve your dispute with Wik and Tannin. 172 04:01, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Democide

What I understand from Rummel reasoning, democide are death caused by government. However, it is not necessary that those deaths are caused by murder. Therefore, I vote for removing the democide reference from the page. Cautious 14:53, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Edits by anon

The edits by 199.46.200.23* (see diff here) need a serious NPOV check, his additions are extremly anti-gun control POV. Or should we simply revert him? I'm not quite sure how to turn that stuff NPOV. --Conti|✉ 10:33, May 3, 2005 (UTC)

Reversion's best I think - there is some worthwhile content in there, but it's unsalvageable from the mass of POV. Md25 17:57, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
I've added an NPOV boilerplate... His/her additions and edits are pretty absurd. They not only attack gun control, they also make unverifiable statements like "and should have been in prison for many years" and "This mass murder would have been prevented California had adequate prison space and if prosecutors and judges were more responsible." There's a lot of good but unverifiable info in there, though. I'd hate to see what Gun control looks like though. - Matthew Cieplak (talk) (edits) 23:24, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

Could someone explain this statement: "family annihilators, firearms enthusiasts or disgruntled workers."

Including firearms enthusiasts under types of mass murderers, with no further explanation seems to be a serious breach of NPOV. Granted, I'm sure there are many firearms enthusiasts that commit mass murders, but the way it is phrased suggests that being a firearms enthusiast will motivate a mass murderer in itself. I'd take it out, but I'm thinking there might be a good point behind that, albeit one that is poorly explained- I'd rather it be fixed than removed entirely in that case. G worroll 15:57, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

I've changed "firearms entusiasts" to "individuals with mental defects". This goes back to earlier versions which refered to mental illness, I used "mental defects" to draw a line between those with issues and those who flip out and kill lots of people. G worroll 03:08, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] AfD closed - speedy keep

This article was nominated for deletion, and the result was Speedy Keep - the topic is obviously notable, and the nomination failed to state a legitimate reason for deletion. For details, please see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mass murder.  BD2412 talk 16:39, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "State Sponsored"

Including the Mai Lai massacre in this section is, I think, misleading. Whereas the Nazi state intended the Holocaust--and the Stalin regime the purges--the soldiers who carried out the Mai Lai massacre were punished for doing so. Obviously the state did not endorse the Mai Lai massacre, although it did technically "sponsor" it by providing training, equipment, and transportation to those soldiers.

Removed Mai Lai and added Project Phoenix, which was a state sponsored murder campaign against Viet Cong sympathizers. Azureprophet 05:03, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

I would like to know the basis of this phrase: "the genocide and ethnic cleansing of Palestinians by Israel and Arab States." Please verify or provide citations for such an absurdly general and incendiary phrase!--Don 07:39, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] ATF vs David Koresh (Branch Davidian compound, outside Waco, Texas)

Does the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives assault on David Koresh's Branch Davidian compound near Waco, Texas serve as an example state-sponsored mass murder?


No, a kind of common sense is needed in these cases. One cannot apply these kinds of terms to anything we politically disagree with, this is like liberals attempting to call Bush a terrorist, or conservatives trying to call Ted Kennedy a serial killer. What Waco, Texas can be called is a federal violation of civil rights, but not a mass murder in the traditional sense. This is not to say what happened wasn't terrible, but for the sake of those who intend to read this as a kind of history, the appropriate, unbiased terminology has to be used. That is not to say that all unbiased terminology is not negative, but you hvae to use the appropriate kinds, i.e., Waco involved the government's violating an individual's rights, and acting in most things the Constitution tried to avoid, but they were not serial killers, or mass murderers per se. 68.111.219.236Ezedriel

[edit] Timothy McVeigh

Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh is considered by the FBI to be an American domestic terrorist, but he maintained to his death that he acted alone in the bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building. His entry in Wikipedia states, "Some investigators contend that Timothy McVeigh and his accomplice Terry Nichols had ties to Islamic terrorism through Ramzi Yousef, a militant who planned the 1993 WTC Bombing, and through a series of meetings with Islamic terror group Abu Sayyaf members in the Philippines. Others suggest he had ties to a radical Christian Identity group called Elohim City near Muldrow, Oklahoma." As this is still speculation, should he not be considered a mass murderer?

[edit] Further Reading Deletion

Removed the review of the novel "Guttersnipe", which has been added to numerous pages. Don't see the relevance, and looks like the author's plug. Ogdred 01:04, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] U.S. Deathday party for six cadavers with real homicidor-suicidor

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/03/25/seattle.shooting.ap/index.html

[edit] POV template and citation needed template

As far as I could tell, the POV had a lot to do with the classification of types of mass murderers. The three-category classification provided is not referenced, and hence does not conform to Wikipedia policy of verifiability. Appropriate citations should be added or the information should be removed from the article. Kelly 17:02, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

This page in a nutshell: Information on Wikipedia must be reliable. Facts, viewpoints, theories, and arguments may only be included in articles if they have already been published by reliable and reputable sources. Articles should cite these sources whenever possible. Any unsourced material may be challenged and removed.

[edit] Sabra and Shatila massacre, and Qibya massacre

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mass_murder&diff=68262974&oldid=68261331

Why can't they be listed here? BhaiSaab talk 22:19, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Because the section is for "clear examples of state-sponsored mass-murder"; large numbers of killings do not automatically qualify as "clear examples of state-sponsored mass-murder", especially when the state in question here did not authorize or carry out the killings in the first instance, and in the second instance insists killings were as a result of anti-terror activities. Also please note that most of the incidents listed describe millions or hundreds of thousands of deaths, not 60. I've cleaned up the section from some IP insertions as well. Jayjg (talk) 22:38, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Atomic Bombings ?

Why doesn't the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki figure as mass murders ? I guess Truman should be added as one of the mass murderers

They are in there; see Mass murder#Mass murder by a state. --WikiSlasher 23:50, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Serial Killers are mass murderers too - in the UK at least

In UK usage the killings do not have to be over a short space of time (Harold Shipman would qualify as a mass murderer) - so I would like to point this out somewhere, preferably a caveat in the first paragraph. The reason why it needs to be pointed out is that a) it's common usage over here on our side of the pond and b) people remove 'mass murderer' from articles such as Shipman's (see edit on 23:14, 7 March 2007) due to this wikipedia page's narrow definition, which only reports (I presume) US usage. I'll add something unless there are objections. Malick78 16:27, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

This is probably a disadvantage of being globally connected -- there is a distinct difference between "mass murder" and "serial killing" as it's taught in our educational system (and commonly viewed in our criminal justice system). I'll be glad to provide citations for such, if needed, but I also have no doubt that you could do the same for your viewpoint. What is appropriate?
I don't know. I am in the UK and was pretty clear on the mass murderer/spree killer vs serial killer distinction. The press might use the terms more loosely but what I remember he was called things like "Britain's biggest serial killer." Unless you have specific resources showing an official (police/academic) definition then I'd say leave it be. (Emperor 00:40, 12 May 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Strategic bombing "clear examples of mass murder?"

This page is naturally getting a lot of traffic today, so I'll propose an edit here rather than starting an edit war. I'm really surprised to see WWII examples of strategic bombing, specifically the Blitz, the Dresden raid and the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki listed as "clear examples" of mass murder. As the WP pages of the last two makes clear this is a highly controversial POV; as for the Blitz, the WP article (wisely in my view) doesn't even mention the issue of whether it was mass murder. Unlike, say, the Katyn massacre, which the Soviets tried to keep hidden (an implicit admission of wrong-doing), strategic bombing (on both sides) was widely reported in the media of the attacking country and seen as part of the war effort. Obviously a case can be made for mass murder in all these instances, but there is an arguable case against as well which has been frequently made. Therefore these cases should be listed as disputed, not clear examples. PaddyLeahy 23:37, 17 April 2007 (UTC)


It's also troubling that Hiroshima and Nagasaki are listed multiple times, yet the Japanese attrocities in SE Asia get no mention at all. Japans crimes in SE Asia, by many accounts, dwarf those of the Nazis. If one were to come to the article with no historical context, the assumption would be that the US was a vicious aggressor that wrongfully dropped a nuclear weapon on Japanese civilians with no provocation. That is disturbingly POV.

[edit] Hanadi Jaradat

It does not seem appropriate to single her out on the list if we will not have any other recent suicide bombers on it. I'll remove her if no one objects. Thrawn562 05:47, 23 April 2007 (UTC)Thrawn562

[edit] Jim Jones

The Wikipedia article on Jim Jones specifically calls the Jonestown massacre a "mass murder - suicide". Virtually all refs agree that some people took their own lives, while hundreds others (including many of the children) were murdered upon Jones' order. He orchestrated the mass murder, and had he survived to stand trial, would certainly been convicted of many, many counts of murder. Even if he didn't personally pull the trigger or give the injections, he is still responsibile for the murders. The Jonestown massacre fits all of the definitions below of a "mass murder" listed in the article. The article doesn't list any specific definitions of a "mass murderer," but if Jones was responsible for a mass murder, then why isn't he a mass murderer?

"the act of murdering a large number of people, typically at the same time, or over a relatively short period of time. Mass murder may be committed by individuals or organizations"
"involves the actual killing of a large number of people."
"refers to the killing of several people at the same time."
""...[involving] the murder of four or more victims at one location, within one event.""

Fredwerner 20:23, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Magneto?

I'm just wondering if you think Magneto can be considered a mass-murderer. I asked this on the appropiate pages and was told to come here. For the record, Magneto has sunken submarines, knocked down mountains and once did a world-wide EMP that disabled technology, including planes falling from the sky.--CyberGhostface 00:50, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Just so everyone knows the context of these incidents: the first two cases were in direct response to the humans trying to kill him.
Third case; it's not his fault the UN created the "Magneto Protocols," preventing him from going back to Earth. It's not like he intentionally did it to hurt people; that the was the only way to get back to Earth. --DrBat 01:05, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
You should ask at the reference desk not here, as it has nothing to do with the article but the subject of the article. Nil Einne 06:49, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Israel's genocide against arabs

there's this line that seems somehow interjected and doesn't have article about it (other instances of genocide in the list have separate articles) i don't want to edit anything (I might get banned for 99 years for vandalism) but is that an agreed on view?

[edit] Pinsk massacre

Does this event, the Pinsk massacre, belong at, or should it be added to the mass murder by State section? It has been reverted once. I would like the general community's opinion on whether it qualifies. Dr. Dan 18:16, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Start by find a source that qualifies this event as a 'mass murder', to satisfy WP:V/WP:OR.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  05:43, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The great butchery of Iraqi people

I am now laughing of what I read here..Mass murder..do you name the murder of 67 Jews or 35 of dublin and monaghan Bombings a mass murder or..or..then what you can name what happen in Iraq every houre and every day...there are in average 50-150 iraqi people murder every day by the american troops and their arab savage terrorist friends..it's a big game to annihilate the iraqi people until some day we will be in your history books and websites like the naitve indian of america...every morning we start our day with collecting the bodies of the unknown iraqis victims..there are every where..in the streets..in the revirs..in the markets..every where..every day we die by car bombs and mortars and your soldiers bullets..our women..our childs..more then one million iraqi killed in four years..and another one million people were killed by the provious america friend saddam...four million iraqi were homeless in every part of this world...our butchery was not happened also in the darks ages of the humanity..there is no thing like the butchery of our small nation in the history..what by the hell you can name it..and no one care...it become a normal news to hear every day and to count in your websites and TV...the cheapest blood in the world is the iraqi blood..and i think that our mass butchery must not list here in your pages to be equal for your dear 67 jews or 35 english golden blood. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.15.30.253 (talk) 23:52, 9 July 2007

After you've done cherry-picking, maybe you should read about the Dublin and Monaghan Bombings and work out what the nationality of the victims actually was. Nick Cooper 08:09, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I am not against Jews or English people and I don't want to read about another mass murder because I sow it myself many time before, but mybe becuase what I see every day I become more respect for all the humen lives, I saw many died people from difference sect and they all had the same blood, humen blood is humen blood no difference between iraqi or English or Jews but what happen in Iraq is more then anyone can imagine and you can't compare it with any other mass murder.
mass murder may happened one time in other countries but it continuous every day in iraq.
I can't understand it, why killing us is very easy and why our blood is very cheap..I can't understand it because we live in the 21 century. There was another mass murder before 3 day in Amorli in Iraq and there were 150 victims and it was a big massacre in a small village and I don't know when this butchery will stop it got worse and worse and here is examples from a very quick search, only write "iraq news" in any search engine and you will find hundreds of mass murder of our innocent people:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6279864.stm
http://www.rationalreview.com/content/31906
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6698093.stm
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/06/28/iraq.main/index.html
I can list hundreds of such mass murders in the last four years.
I am very angry and may said some things that I must not say and again I repeat that I respect all the humen lives from any nationality becuase if I don't do this it mean that there is no difference between me and the murderers of our people but you must make a separate page for what happen in Iraq because it's not fair to summarize everyday iraqi mass murder in two or three incident and if my english language was good enough I was doing it myself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.15.30.253 (talk) 11:24, 10 July 2007

[edit] 1929 Hebron massacre

I see the 1929 Hebron massacre listed as "mass-murder", and I question whether that is the case. "Death from mob violence", or "killed in riots" are apt description, but "mass-murder" suggests either psychosis (temporary or permanent) or a profit-motive. I don't think either of those explanations can really be defended. Only if race/religion-hatred speech induces a diseased state of the mind would the words fit - and we know that the riots were triggered by an actual event, the Wailing Wall in Jerusalem being seized by 100s of demonstrators, many of them weilding batons. The phrase "Mass-murder" could better be applied to, say, the Deir Yassin massacre - except I'm not aware of anyone trying to do that either.

There is a further problem, since the section is entitled "Mass murder by terrorists", and all the other cases listed are indeed terrorist based. Only if we label all Palestinians as terrorists (which would be a pretty outrageous thing to do) should this massacre be listed here. PRtalk 13:31, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Omagh bombing removed

"In recent years, terrorists have performed acts of mass murder to intimidate a society and draw attention to their causes." Sorry, but it doesn't fit under that description. The target of the Omagh bomb was a courthouse, but due to incompetence and bungled telephone warnings an incorrect location of the bomb was given, and people were moved towards the bomb rather than away from it. That's the official, reliably sourced version of events, so it doesn't fit that description. One Night In Hackney303 08:02, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

it would be helpful if you provided a link to this reliable source. Anastrophe (talk) 00:28, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
The onus would technically be on other people to prove that the bombing meets the criteria, rather than me to disprove it. Nonetheless, no direct link but Black Operations: The Secret War Against the Real IRA by John Mooney & Michael O'Toole (ISBN 0-9542945-9-9) gives you all the information you need. One Night In Hackney303 07:23, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
you said in your first post "That's the official, reliably sourced version of events". but you're citing a publication that certainly doesn't sound like an official, reliable source, based upon the title. furthermore, from your description, "The target of the Omagh bomb was a courthouse". whatever bunglings may have occurred are irrelevant - or are you saying that the target was perhaps slated for demolition by the city? if not, then under what scenario is a courthouse bombing not a terrorist act? Anastrophe 08:18, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Have a read of reliable sources, it's a perfectly reliable source and if you'd read it before criticising it you'd know the authors certainly aren't fans of the Real IRA. My removing the item from the list was clearly explained above, it's nothing to do with whether it's a terrorist attack or not. The text underneath the heading states "In recent years, terrorists have performed acts of mass murder to intimidate a society and draw attention to their causes" - who says that was the motivation behind the Omagh bombing? One Night In Hackney303 08:27, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dividing mass murderers section into nationalities

Anastrophe, you sent me a message regarding the unnecessary use of national flags added to a listed mass murderer. I understand the irrelevancy of this, though I'd like your approval or disapproval on the concept of dividing the list of mass murderers into single subsections for each of their nationalities. I'm just wondering if this concept would be out of boundaries for Wikipedia. Thank you.

(LeatherEngine (talk) 04:14, 6 December 2007 (UTC)Leather Engine)

i'm unclear how this would improve the article. note that my or any other editors approval/disapproval per se is never required for edits, but they must stand up to policy and other editors opinions of their validity. Anastrophe (talk) 08:56, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Have at it.

There is an effort to clean up the List of massacres page, leaving it only for Political killing, military actions, ethnic massacres, etc. I'd love to drop this into you lap.

>===Criminal and non-political massacres===

See also school massacres and "going postal".
Date Name Deaths Location Summary Claimants
1929 St. Valentine's Day massacre 7 Chicago, Illinois, United States Members of Bugs Moran's gang are murdered by Al Capone's men. [citation needed]
1935 Palace Chophouse Massacre 4 Newark, New Jersey, United States The second deadliest gangland massacre behind the St. Valentine's Day Massacre. Mobster Dutch Schultz is killed by members of Murder Inc in a shootout that also claims the lives of one of his henchmen, accountant, and bodyguard. [1] [2]
1938 Tsuyama massacre 31 Tsuyama, Okayama, Japan Mutsuo Toi rampaged through a village near Tsuyama armed with Katanas and a rifle, killing 30 including his grandmother. Toi took his life after the massacre. [citation needed]
1941 Stanley Graham killings 7 Hokitika, New Zealand Farmer Stanley Graham kills seven people during a 12-day rampage which ends when he is shot dead by police. [citation needed]
1948 Teigin Bank poisoning 12 Tokyo, Japan During a robbery, painter Sadamichi Hirasawa gives cyanide to ingest to twelve bank employees, immediately killing eleven. [3]
1949 Howard Unruh Massacre 13 Camden, New Jersey, United States World War II veteran Howard Unruh, armed with a Luger, randomly opens fire inside shops and at pathways, killing thirteen. Unruh was believed to suffer from mental illnesses and required psychiatric needs. [citation needed]
1966 University of Texas Tower Shooting 15 Austin, Texas, United States After killing his mother and wife the night before, Charles Whitman goes on a shooting rampage atop the University of Texas at Austin's observation tower, killing 15 people and injuring 30 before being killed by police. [citation needed]
1977 California State University, Fullerton library massacre 7 Fullerton, California, United States Edward Charles Allaway opens fire at fellow workers at the California State University, Fullerton library, killing 7 and wounding 2. [4]
1977 Neptune massacre 6 New Rochelle, New York, United States Frederick Cowan killed 5 people, wounded 5 others and killed himself at the Neptune Moving Company in New Rochelle, New York where he worked. [citation needed]
1978 Jonestown massacre 913 Jonestown, Guyana Peoples Temple cult attacks Rep. Leo Ryan and delegation. After 5 are killed in shootout, Jim Jones led mass suicide. [citation needed]
1982 Carl Brown massacre 8 Miami, Florida, United States Angry over a dispute of a bill, Carl Brown opens fire in a mechanic shop, killing eight. [5]
1982 Woo Bum-Kon 58 Gyeongsangnam-do, South Korea Dispirited police officer rampaged through 5 villages in rural South Korea, killing 57 (and himself) and wounding 35. [citation needed]
1982 George Banks Massacre 13 Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania, United States Former state prison guard George Banks kills thirteen in a shooting rampage, including five of his children. [citation needed]
1983 Wah Mee massacre 13 Seattle, Washington, United States Fourteen people are shot and 13 killed at a gambling club in Seattle's International District. [citation needed]
1984 McDonald's massacre 22 San Diego, California, United States Twenty-one killed, 19 injured in a shooting rampage at a McDonald's restaurant before the gunman is shot dead. [citation needed]
1984 Milperra massacre 7 Sydney, NSW, Australia Seven were killed and 19 injured in a clash between outlaw motorcycle gangs, in a suburb of Sydney on Father's Day. [citation needed]
1984 Dorothy Mae Apartment Hotel Blaze 25 Los Angeles, California, United States, 25 people died in a blaze when 21-year old Humberto de la Torre torched the Dorothy Mae Apartment Hotel after a dispute with his uncle who managed the building. [citation needed]
1986 Edmond Postal massacre 15 Edmond, Oklahoma, United States Fired postman Patrick Sherrill shot twenty-one former fellow employees in the Post Office, killing fourteen of them before committing suicide. Between 1986 and 1997, more than 40 people were killed in more than 20 separate incidents involving the United States Postal Service. [citation needed]
1987 Winn-Dixie massacre 6 Palm Bay, Florida, United States William B. Cruse opens fire in a Winn-Dixie supermarket, killing six people and wounding several including police who attempted to confront him. [citation needed]
1987 Hoddle Street massacre 7 Melbourne, Victoria, Australia 19-year-old Julian Knight shoots seven people dead and wounded another nineteen in thirty minutes before surrendering to police. [citation needed]
1987 Hungerford massacre 17 Hungerford, Berkshire, England Michael Ryan went a rampage in a small rural town in England, shooting people at random (including his own mother) with an array of firearms before killing himself. [citation needed]
1987 Queen Street massacre 9 Melbourne, Victoria, Australia Frank Vitkovic kills eight and injures five in an Australia Post building before jumping 12 stories to his death. [citation needed]
1987 Ronald Gene Simmons Massacre 16 Russellville, Arkansas, United States Retired United States Air Force sergeant Ronald Gene Simmons Jr. strangled and fatally shot fourteen family members four days prior to rampaging through offices and store outlets that left two dead and several injured. [citation needed]
1988 ESL massacre 7 Sunnyvale, California, United States Former employee Richard Farley returns to Electromagnetic Systems Labs (ESL) with guns and explosives, killing seven people and injuring three others, including Laura Black, a woman he had been stalking for four years. [citation needed]
1989 Stockton massacre 6 Stockton, California, United States Patrick Purdy, armed with a semi-automatic rifle, opened fire at an elementary school that killed 5 schoolchildren and wounded nearly 30 others before taking his own life. [citation needed]
1989 École Polytechnique massacre 15 Université de Montréal, Montreal, Quebec, Canada Saying "I hate feminists", Marc Lépine kills 14 women and wounds 10 women and 4 men at an engineering school, before killing himself. [citation needed]
1989 Standard Gravure shooting 9 Louisville, Kentucky, United States Employee Joseph Wesbecker went on a rampage and killed eight other employees and himself, while wounding twelve others. He was off work on disability leave due to mental illness at the time of the shootings. [citation needed]
1990 Happy Land Fire 87 New York City, New York, United States Julio González starts an arson at a social club entitled "Happy Land" that kills 87 people. [citation needed]
1990 Aramoana massacre 13 Aramoana, New Zealand Gun collector David Gray opens fire on town residents before being shot dead by the Armed Offenders Squad. [citation needed]
1990 GMAC massacre 10 Jacksonville, Florida, United States James Edward Pough kills nine people and finally himself at a GMAC office after his car is repossessed. [citation needed]
1991 Strathfield massacre 8 Sydney, Australia Wade Frankum opens fire in a suburban shopping mall, killing seven people and wounding a further six before turning the assault rifle on himself. [citation needed]
1991 Luby's massacre 23 Killeen, Texas, United States George Hennard drove his pickup truck into a cafeteria and opened fire before taking his own life. [citation needed]
1991 Gang Lu Massacre 6 Iowa City, Iowa, United States Gang Lu, a Chinese University of Iowa student enrolled in a Ph.D physics program fatally shot three faculty members, a fellow female Ph.D student from China and an advisor before turning the gun on himself. [citation needed]
1992 Ratima killings 7 Masterton, New Zealand Raymond Ratima bludgeons or stabs to death four acquaintances before killing his own three children, aged 7, 5 and 2. [citation needed]
1992 Central Coast massacre 7 Central Sydney, NSW, Australia A gunman shoots his son, an ex-girlfriend, her heavily pregnant sister, the girl's father and another couple with a sawn-off shotgun before finally handing himself in. [citation needed]
1992 Olivehurst High massacre 4 Olivehurst, California,United States Armed with a pistol, 20-year-old Eric Houston took hostages at his former high school, killing four people and wounding 10. [citation needed]
1993 101 California Street shootings 9 San Francisco, California, United States Gian Luigi Ferri kills eight people and injures six with three handguns before turning a concealed fourth handgun on himself. [citation needed]
1993 Brown's Chicken massacre 7 Palatine, Illinois, United States Seven people were slain at the Brown's Chicken and Pasta in Palatine. [citation needed]
1993 Long Island Rail Road massacre 6 Nassau County, New York, United States Colin Ferguson shoots 25 passengers on a commuter train, killing 6. [citation needed]
1994 The Bain killings 5 Dunedin, New Zealand Five members of the Bain family were shot dead at their home, which was later torched. David Bain spent 12 years in prison before being released on appeal. [citation needed]
1994 Toulon town square massacre 14 Toulon, France 16-year old Eric Borel arms himself with a .22-caliber hunting rifle and opens fire in the village town square, killing ten and wounding several others before turning the gun onto himself. Earlier that day he had killed his stepfather, mother and brother using a baseball bat. [citation needed]
1996 Dunblane massacre 18 Dunblane, Scotland Thomas Hamilton opened fire at a primary school, killing sixteen children and one teacher before killing himself. [citation needed]
1996 Port Arthur massacre 35 Tasmania, Australia Martin Bryant shoots 35 people dead and injures 37 at the tourist town of Port Arthur, Tasmania. At 35, this is the largest shooting incident of its type in Australian history. [citation needed]
1997 Sanaa massacre 8 Yemen School massacre in Yemen. [citation needed]
1998 Jonesboro massacre 5 Arkansas, United States Two middle school students attacked their school in a military style ambush. [citation needed]
1998 Thurston High School shooting 4 Springfield, Oregon, United States A day after being expelled from school, Kip Kinkel killed his parents and the next morning, killed two of his former classmates and injured 26 others with a Glock and a .22 semi-automatic rifle before being detained. [citation needed]
1998 Shaanxi Axe Massacre 9 Shaanxi, China After a dispute about stolen geese, farmer Yang Mingxin brutally kills nine villages with an axe, leaving another three in critical condition. [citation needed]
1999 Columbine High School massacre 13 Jefferson County, Colorado, United States Two students (Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold) executed a planned shooting rampage, killing 12 fellow students and a teacher before committing suicide. [citation needed]
1999 Atlanta shooting 10 Atlanta, Georgia On July 29, Mark O. Barton opens fire at two day trading firms, killing nine and injuring 13 before committing suicide . [citation needed]
1999 Wedgwood Baptist Church massacre 8 Fort Worth, Texas, United States Larry Gene Ashbrook shot dead 7 people and injured a further 7 at a concert by Christian rock group Forty Days in Fort Worth, Texas before killing himself. [citation needed]
1999 Xerox murders 7 Honolulu, Hawaii, United States Former Xerox employee Byran Uyesugi opens fire at the workplace building, killing his former supervisor, six co-workers and wounding another co-worker. [citation needed]
2000 Wendy's massacre 5 Flushing, New York, United States Craig Godineaux and John Taylor held a Wendy's outlet hostage where several employees were duct-taped and shot execution-style. [citation needed]
2000 Wichita Massacre 5 Wichita, Kansas, United States Two brothers go on a week-long murder/assault/rape/robbery spree, which culminated with the execution-style shooting of four naked victims on a soccer field. A fifth victim survived thanks to a hair clip that prevented the bullet from entering her skull. [citation needed]
2000 Wakefield massacre 7 Wakefield, Massachusetts, United States Software engineer Michael McDermott carries a shooting rampage at the Edgewater Technology, killing seven co-workers. [citation needed]
2001 Nepalese royal massacre 10 Katmandu, Nepal Prince Dipendra shoots his immediate family and himself at a royal dinner. [citation needed]
2001 Osaka school massacre 8 Ikeda, Osaka prefecture, Japan Former janitor Mamoru Takuma stabbed eight children to death and seriously wounded thirteen other children and two teachers. [citation needed]
2001 Zug massacre 15 Zug, Switzerland Friedrich Leibacher entered the Zug parliament and opened fire, killing three members of the cantonal government and 11 parliamentarians before turning the gun on himself. [citation needed]
2002 Nanterre massacre 8 Paris, France A man at a city council meeting in Nanterre opens fire, killing 8 city officials and wounding another 19. [citation needed]
2002 Erfurt massacre 17 Erfurt, Thuringia, Germany Robert Steinhäuser broke into his former high school and killed 13 teachers, 2 students and a police officer before finally turning a gun on himself. [citation needed]
2003 Lockheed Martin shooting 6 Meridian, Mississippi On July 8, Doug Williams, an employee at Lockheed Martin, opens fire, killing five and injuring nine, after which he commits suicide. [6]
2005 Living Church of God Massacre 8 Milwaukee, Wisconsin, United States Terry Ratzmann opens fire at the Living Church of God during a congregation, killing seven before taking his own life. [citation needed]
2005 Red Lake High School massacre 10 Red Lake, Minnesota, United States Jeff Weise kills 9 people, consisting of his grandfather and his grandfather's girlfriend and five students, a security guard and a teacher at Red Lake High School. After exchanging fire with police, he took his own life. [citation needed]
2006 Goleta Postal massacre 8 Goleta, California, United States Female former postal worker goes on a rampage, shooting dead seven before killing herself. [citation needed]
2006 Capitol Hill massacre 7 Seattle, Washington, United States Aaron Kyle Huff entered a house party in Seattle's Capitol Hill neighborhood and shot eight people, killing six of them. When confronted by police, Huff killed himself. [citation needed]
2006 Amish school shooting 6 Nickel Mines, Pennsylvania, United States Charles Carl Roberts IV entered a one-room Amish schoolhouse in Nickel Mines, a village in Lancaster County, took ten children hostage, and eventually shot and killed five girls aged 7 to 13 before killing himself. [citation needed]
2007 Trolley Square shooting 6 Salt Lake City, Utah, United States Sulejman Talović entered a shopping mall carrying a shotgun and a .38 caliber pistol as well as a backpack full of ammunition, shot five people dead as well as wounding four others before being fatally shot by police. [citation needed]
2007 Virginia Tech massacre 33 Blacksburg, Virginia, United States Gunman Seung-Hui Cho opens fire in a Virginia Tech university dormitory and a classroom building, killing and wounding many, then commits suicide. At 33 (including gunman's suicide), this is the largest shooting incident of its type in US history. [citation needed]
2007 Homecoming Massacre 7 Crandon, Wisconsin, United States Forest County Deputy Sheriff Tyler Peterson opens fire with an AR-15 assault rifle during a homecoming party killing 6 people including his ex-girlfriend and wounding 1 before committing suicide. [citation needed]
2007 Jokela school shooting 9 Jokela, Tuusula, Finland 18-year-old upper secondary school student Pekka-Eric Auvinen shot five boys, one girl, the school nurse and the principal. He also opened fire against police officers. No policemen were wounded. Auvinen was hospitalized with a head injury after an unsuccessful suicide attempt. Auvinen died later at night. [7]

--—Preceding unsigned comment added by Knulclunk (talk • contribs) 03:24, 17 December 2007

Knulclunk wrote above "There is an effort to clean up the List of massacres page, leaving it only for Political killing, military actions, ethnic massacres, etc."

This is not true there is a move to clean up the List of massacres article so that it only contains events that are described as massacres in reliable third party sources (see WP:PROVIT). If one looks at the above section that was copied from part of the list before it was zapped, it is clear that very few of those incidences carry citations from reliable third party sources stating that the event was a massacre and as such constituted WP:OR. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 22:35, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] state-sponsored mass murder

The current introduction to this section. has a problem with the source:

The concept of state-sponsored mass murder covers a range of potential killings. Some people consider any deaths in combat to be mass murder by the state (http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.ART.HTM), though this is not a generally held position. Clear examples of state-sponsored mass murder include:

Because Rummel explicitly excludes battle deaths in his definition of Democide Death by government DEATH BY GOVERNMENT Chapter 2 Definition of Democide:

I have to again be absolutely clear on this since so much takes place in time of war. War related killing by military forces that international agreements and treaties directly or by implication prohibit is democide, whether the parties are signatories or not. That killing explicitly permitted is not democide. Thus, the death of civilians during the bombing of munitions plants in World War II is not democide. Nor is the death of civilians when through navigation or bombing errors, or the malfunction of equipment, bombs land on a school or hospital, unless it is clear that the bombing was carried out recklessly in spite of a high risk to such civilian buildings. Nor is the death of civilians in a bombed village beneath which has been built enemy bunkers. Nor is the death of civilians caught in a cross fire between enemy soldiers, or those civilians killed while willingly helping troops haul supplies or weapons. Seldom is it easy to make these distinctions, but the aim here must be clear. I discriminate between democide in time of war and war-deaths. The latter are those of the military and civilians from battle or battle related disease and famine. The former are those victims (which may include the military, as when POWs are massacred) of internationally prohibited war-time killing, what may be called war-crimes or crimes against humanity.

--Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 13:08, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Home Freak the mighty rodman philbrick sulfline vieo would wer —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.251.116.24 (talk) 02:36, 20 May 2008 (UTC)