User talk:Mark Dingemanse/Archive2

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[edit] Infovoyager

No I did not get a response, and I do not like copyright infringement like that to say the least. I would like to see them shut down. I think it is getting close to a DMCA take-down notice. If anyone wants to send one acting as my authorised agent for my copyrighted material they are infringing, please do so. David Newton 21:28, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Maps

Nice work! Theresa Knott (Not the skater) 11:16, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Very nice indeed - keep it up! I'd like to see more linguistic maps on Wikipedia... How'd you make them? My only complaint is that Songhay seems to be missing. - Mustafaa 12:30, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Thank you! I made them in CorelDraw 12; I took the Africa outline from some vector-based map of the world. My primary source for the African language family series was the book African Voices, Vic Webb and Kembo-Sure (2000).
Thanks for the complaint as well. Not for nothing I have given them a version number (although probably 'v1.0' should have been 'v0.9'). As for Songhay, I'm working on that. My first grid was too coarse, I guess. - Mark Dingemanse (talk) 14:39, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Dahomey Amazons

The local name of the regiment is a question I asked myself when compiling the article. Relying as I did purely on internet sources, I was unable to come up with an answer. However, I have access to the SOAS library, and therefore to the books mentioned in the further reading section. On my next visit, I'll see if the books answer the question. On the subject of Africa, could you tell me where you got the vector maps of Africa? I'd like to use them for an illustrative timeline of Congo Civil War. -- Xed 16:39, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)

As for the local name, I'm curious! I used the reference map from the CIA Factbook (pdf format) as a basis: [1]. I layered the map in CorelDraw, (putting names, borders, rivers etc. on different layers) so if you need something with only borders and a plain background or anything else, I can provide you with that (it would save you some work). - Mark Dingemanse (talk) 17:19, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks for help with the username change

Oups.. I misunderstood the instructions on how to change username. I thought I should not create the new account. Thanks for pointing it out! Jolson

You're welcome! Mark Dingemanse (talk)

[edit] Bandwidth theft

Hi Mark, if they are stealing bandwidth, then a developer will be able to block them. Just leave a note at m:Non-compliant site coordination. Thanks. Angela. 17:07, Oct 31, 2004 (UTC)

I left a note there. However, it seems to take some time before action is taken. Mark Dingemanse (talk)


[edit] Aikhenvald & Militarev

Sorry, but I haven't got the details right now - I got the reference from Merritt Ruhlen's Languages of the World, but I haven't got that right now to check. - Mustafaa 20:19, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

It's OK. Actually I'm not sure if it should be Militarev or Militariev. Either he has published under both names (like Kossman/Kossmann), or (less likely) they are different authors coincidentally both working on Afro-Asiatic. Mark Dingemanse (talk) 17:11, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Random self-promotion

You might like, or have ideas for improving, Old Nubian language. - Mustafaa 23:18, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Looks interesting, I'll see what I can do! Mark Dingemanse (talk) 00:31, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

And Tagoi language... I was thinking some more Kordofanian stuff might be worth digging up. - Mustafaa 00:24, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)


[edit] History of the Finno-Ugric languages

A debate about the validity of Finno-Ugric seems to be going on on Talk:Finno-Ugric language. Your comments, as a linguist, would be welcome. - Mustafaa 20:46, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Thanks. It looks like a persistent troll to me. I have responded there. However, I won't go deep into the discussion if the Antifinnougric guy persists, since I'm trying to avoid wikistress. Regards, — Mark Dingemanse (talk) 22:54, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Fair enough; good research on this Laszlo guy, btw. The picture edit is good; I should have thought of fixing the brightness. - Mustafaa 23:36, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Featured article?

Would you mind if I suggested Gbe languages on the Wikipedia:Featured article candidates page, or do you have something more you want to add to it first? - Mustafaa 20:47, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Well, it has been listed on Peer review for almost two weeks now, but no-one has made any comments yet. Still, I would like someone else to go through it first, since I can imagine there are things that could be worded better. I have no major things to add to it anymore, so I would be pleased if you suggested it on FAC eventually. Thanks for your support! — mark ✎ 21:03, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Whistled languages

According to the other article on the subject - whistled speech - the following are attested in West Africa: Bafia, Bape Birifor, Bobo, Burunsi, Daguri, Ewe, Marka, Tshi, Ule.

I like User:Mark_Dingemanse/draft3; I'll have to do some editing, though I really shouldn't at this time of night. I've been working on articles on unclassified languages a bit; I'm going to try and track down as many of them as possible, on the off chance that there's a paper in it :D. Oropom language, at least, is ridiculously interesting, considering that it will likely never be classifiable... - Mustafaa 02:12, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

As for the trade languages, one could make the case that Amharic should be included, and that Arabic should extend somewhat further south; and Kanuri is in retreat, but was pretty big along that trade route. Also, what of the European ones - Cameroon Pidgin English, Krio, etc.? Don't they count as effectively linguae francae? - Mustafaa 02:18, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

They sure do. However, I was a bit in doubt which sort of map to make - one of african trade languages, or one showing the most important languages of wider communication/linguae francae. I ended up with a mix of the two things, which is not good. In other words, the map is as drafty as the /draft3 article itself. As for Amharic, is it used frequently in multilingual contexts? — mark ✎
Regarding the whistled languages, I have my doubts. I happen to know Ewe quite well, and I can imagine that it is whistled in some contexts, since it is a tonal language. But in that way, many tonal languages would qualify as whistled languages — it is difficult to draw the line. I really should get to sleep now, I can't think anymore. — mark ✎

I think most whistled languages are actually just whistled versions of the spoken language, but I could be wrong - certainly it's hard to imagine a whistled version of Spanish, yet they have a whistle language on Gomera. I think Amharic is used frequently in multilingual contexts, but only between Ethiopians... - Mustafaa 01:57, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Oropom

Incidentally, you seem to be good at tracking down books - I don't suppose you could take a quick look on your bibliographic database in case something else has been published on Oropom after all? I just added the wordlist, btw, so if it should remind you of anything, it might get you fifteen minutes of fame... - Mustafaa 01:58, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I found only one additional reference, but I think it's a nice one:

  • Elderkin, E.D. (1983) 'Tanzanian and Ugandan isolates'. In Nilotic studies: proceedings of the international symposium on languages and history of the Nilotic peoples, Cologne, January 4-6, 1982 Vol. 2 / Rainer Vossen, Marianne Bechhaus-Gerst (eds), Vol. 2, pp 499-521.
Abstract: The Kuliak languages (Uganda), Hadza and Sandawe (Koisan languages in Tanzania), and Oropom (Uganda, probably extinct) have not been precisely placed to everyone's satisfaction within a genetic classification. A consideration of the vocabulary of these languages does not suggest any strong genetic relation between any pair, except possibly for Oropom and Kuliak. But there are some similarities between Sandawe and Kuliak which are not yet correlated with a historical explanation; they will have to be considered together with Hadza-Kuliak similarities.

You might like the African Studies Centre database.

Whoa, nice one! Thanks. - Mustafaa 04:23, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] how to deal with new POV-fanatics

Maybe you'd be interested in User:Tuomas#View of Wikipedia. I think of our recent common experiences with regard to ....well, I think you know!

At the moment, I feel slight symptoms of meta:wikistress, but before I retreat to less stressful articles, maybe I could ask you for the good deed to look at Talk:Finnic and see if you can shape an opinion of your own. As a linguist, who (as far as I understand) are unconnected to the ethnic disconcord that surely lies beneath the lack of understanding between different wikipedians there, your input would be very much appreciated regardless if your stance is more or less in opposition to mine! ...and regardless of if you put your opinion on that talk page, or if you are a careful man who put it here, on your own talk page. :-)))

Best regards! /Tuomas 10:48, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for your message. Regarding our recent common experiences, I've stepped back because I felt it was getting on my nerves. I also didn't like the fact that it did cost me several hours of trying to talk, to be cooperative and civil, even to help the guy — apparently all to no avail (though I see that in the end, the article seems to benefit from the whole affair). Having stepped back, however, and having read your views of Wikipedia, and having thought about it some time now, I realize that I could have been more patient. In particular, I shouldn't have reverted so quickly; that sort of encouraged the POV-pusher to 'be bold'. Anyhow, it has been instructive.
As for the Talk:Finnic thing, I'm not sure if I understand the issue. I am really not at home in the history of the Scandinavian countries, and I surely can't say a word about subleties like Finnic/Finnish/Finlandic and all that. As I take it, the issue is that Finnic for some people refers to all people that speak (languages closely related to) the Finnic language, while according to others, it refers to the Finnic/sh people, not including the (genetically more distant) Sami peoples and the like. This seems to me to be a matter of terminology. As Maureen suggests, the solution could thus be to mention both views.
In one of your replies on that page you state that `The enigma remains how come the Saami came to retain a mitochondrial gene pool distinct from that of other European populations, but share a language and some mythology with some of these populations.' As a linguist, and fully ignorant of the history of that area (I want to stress that), I can't help to think about contact phenomena like language shift, which sometimes can blur the seemingly straightforward language-etnicity relation considerably. As for a shared mythology, I'm not at all surprised by that; mythology is often of a very regional nature, transcending ethnic borders easily (which is an extremely interesting phenomenon in itself). An example would be the West-African character of 'Anansi the spider', which is widespread in the oral literature of widely diverging peoples and languages.
That's what I have to say for now. You may copy this reaction (if it is worth anything) to the relevant talk page; I won't place it there myself since I am not even sure if I have scratched the surface of the issue. Kind regards! — mark ✎ 01:52, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Something that may amuse you

..."Category:Languages whose existence is uncertain". I've been tracking down "unclassified" languages, and found myself forced to come up with a whole new category for some of the alleged cases. - Mustafaa 01:43, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 :D I like it! (For a moment I pondered the possibility of some POV-fanaticist taking over the concept to lend force to his theories.)
Speaking of categories, what do you think of Category:Last_native_speakers? You might have some info to add to that one. — mark ✎ 14:15, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Hwla language

Thanks for the tip! Could you put together a little stub on it? I've been trying to see how many Ethnologue errors I can correct on Wikipedia (see the end of Ethnologue) and how many alleged "unclassified languages" of Africa I can put to rest, and an article on Hwla would fulfill both bills. - Mustafaa 23:33, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I'm not sure if they (Capo and Aboh) write that much about it :D... but I'll have a look. In any case, I will add this one to my to do list — I have to re-get the books from the library (just returned since I more or less finished Gbe languages). — mark ✎ 23:39, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Thanks! - Mustafaa 01:12, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] The Humungous Image Tagging Project

Hi. You've helped with the Wikipedia:WikiProject Wiki Syntax, so I thought it worth alerting you to the latest and greatest of Wikipedia fixing project, User:Yann/Untagged Images, which is seeking to put copyright tags on all of the untagged images. There are probably, oh, thirty thousand or so to do (he said, reaching into the air for a large figure). But hey: they're images ... you'll get to see lots of random pretty pictures. That must be better than looking for at at and the the, non? You know you'll love it. best wishes --Tagishsimon (talk)

[edit] Lovely, indeed

Nafaanra language is, as you say, a lovely little stub. It's a pleasure encountering such work when wading through the vandal dreck of New Pages insta-delete duty! - DavidWBrooks 16:00, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Thank you for your kind words! — mark ✎ 16:06, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Nice work indeed! It's great to see pages like this appearing. Keep it up! - Mustafaa 15:21, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Other Wikipedias

Hi Mark (my name too),

I was wondering if you have considered putting up basic information in the appropriate languages at for example the Ewe Wikipedia (here)? Also, your contributions to linguistics articles on en.wikipedia are excellent...--Node 00:55, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Hi Mark :),
I'm afraid I'm not fluent enough in Ewe to do something for its Wikipedia, although I might try in the future. Likewise, I have registered on the Swahili Wikipedia (and, for that matter, on the Dutch one), but to keep things under control, I've decided to focus on the English Wikipedia for now. — mark ✎ 12:19, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Spatial tense

After reading your commentary and its replies on Spatial tense, I note that the number of actual references to natural languages with a spatial tense remains at one.

And considering that we've been pressured to reduce the number of Germanic tenses to two and dismiss all the others as "aspects" simply because they require auxiliary verbs (which I suppose means that isolating languages can only have ONE tense, right?), it seems in the spirit of the current wiki POV to narrow the version of "tense" as much as possible.

Therefore, do you think it would be objectionable if I removed the "or place" from "Grammatical tense is a way languages express the time or place at which an event described by a sentence occurs."? I know this may be introducing (miniscule) systemic bias, but to me it's just confusing.

What do you think?

Steverapaport 13:46, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I fully concur. As I have argued on Talk:Spatial tense, talking about 'spatial tense' makes as little sense as talking about 'temporal place', since the very notion of tense has the connotation of time. So removing the 'or place' seems to be a good start.
Regarding Archi language, I suspect that the 'spatial tense' thing is just a label for the way Archi handles location. But I have to look up some references on that.
As for the tense/aspect and auxiliary verbs thing, I have to think about that. Part of the problem is the fact that the notion tense in itself is somewhat LPOV due to its origins in Indo-European linguistics. However, it has been picked up by linguists and has been used commonly and cross-linguistically for, indeed, roughly 'the way languages express the time at which an event occurs'. As I take it, the definition as it is going to be does not exclude isolating languages from having more than one tense. The key is to avoid including any language-specific features in the definition. That's actually one of the other problems of Spatial tense I pointed out, namely the fact that it was defined as 'something modifying the verb' — which indeed only makes sense in the case of inflecting languages. In Grammatical tense, we should avoid problems like that.
On a sidenote, I think that 'requiring an auxiliary' is not a very good reason to dismiss something as a tense cross-linguistically, but language-internal it could be a good reason nevertheless.
I hope I'm not just muddling things up... — mark ✎ 14:20, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)


[edit] antifinougric page

Can you please explain, why do you say, the critique of the finnougric theory page is to be deleted? Did you read it? You don't like something in that? Do you have arguments? Thanks. Antifinnugor 20:13, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Hi Antifinnugor. First, of course I have read it before voting. I have one very clear reason to vote for delete:
This 'criticism' is not notable enough to get its own page. You have managed (with significant help of others) to produce at most three relevant academic references and you have provided the names of just one linguist endorsing the criticism (Marcantonio) and of one semi-linguist with an obvious political agenda (Maracz).
This is defamation. Dr Marácz is a linguist, and not a semi whatever. He knows very well, what he is speaking about. Antifinnugor 08:25, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)
First, this makes the criticism extremely shallow (and it is, in fact, conclusively debunked in one of the other references). Second, this makes the criticism not notable enough to get its own article; it is scarcely worth a short paragraph in the relevant article.
As I said before, I'm not particularly attached to the Finno-Ugric language family. I'm only concerned with the quality of Wikipedia. — mark ✎ 22:54, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
So am I. The tables, containing nonsense (wrong words, English words in Hungarian columns) show the quality , how finnougrists "argue". The remark at the head of a table containing 7-10 not too similar words stating, there are 200 cognates (but nobody saw them yet), the listing of wrong facts (cases in Hungarian are the child of phantasy), the continous deletion of the basic word list show the value off the finno-ugric theory, and how finnougrists work. Therefore I think, it is not a bad idea to handle the critic of this "theory" on a different page, that should be linked with the original page. What do you think now? Antifinnugor 09:45, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I think that you are repeating yourself without wondering why no-one tries to 'refute' your 'arguments' anymore. And I concur with Mustafaa below. — mark ✎ 01:00, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)
dingemans, I could not see any senseless answer or valid point in the discussion with you. Hate and defamation are nice, but do not help you. What you do or say, has no value of any kind. Antifinnugor 20:41, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
You can call me Mark. I do not hate you. I might know Maracz better than you do. Maracz is a doctor, employed by the University of Amsterdam in the Netherlands, working at the department of Eastern Europe and East-European history. By definition, Maracz is NOT a linguist. To say that he is not a linguist is therefore not defamation; it is simply stating facts. — mark ✎ 21:42, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
By "nobody", AFU apparently means "himself". All he needs to do is go to any half-decent university library, or shell out for the books cited himself. But some people just can't be bothered. - Mustafaa 18:15, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)
mustafa, paper is patient. In books there are lot of intelligent things, and lots of stupid things. What counts, are facts. Real logic and real living arguments are, what is needed here. You are one, who really delivers material, (that in fact proves, that I am right), but your hatred and your wild deletions shadow your achievments. Sorry for you. You would be otherwise a respectable partner for sensible discussion. Antifinnugor 20:41, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Regardless of whether you are right or wrong, you seem to have failed to understand some crucial principles of Wikipedia. From this reply, it seems that you are not aware of the No original research guideline (the alternative is that you are simply ignoring it, but I don't think you do). I have earlier pointed you to other relevant Wikipedia policies, such as No personal attacks and Cite sources.

I will not spend any more time replying to someone who has solely come here to impose his point of view without taking some time to find out how Wikipedia really works. Don't waste your time here. Call it whatever you want; I'm off. Good luck. — mark ✎ 21:42, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I think you've seriously misunderstood some crucial principles of Wikipedia. First of all, principles are not rules or laws, if it is reasonable, we can and we must not respect them. For example, if secondary resources are obsolate and off-to-date. It's not original research. Please if you don't know enough on a topic, don't intervene. Thanks: Gubbubu 16:43, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I presume Gubbubu is talking to AFU. - Mustafaa 17:02, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)
no, I suppose he means, if an editor (afu) knows that everything experts have written about a subject is utter crap, we should of course to be glad to have such an enlightened contributor and believe everything he says. dab (ᛏ) 18:00, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] in recognition...

Thanks so much for creating the maps for Lord's Resistance Army and Acholiland. I've been happily putting them into other relevant articles. For your efforts on the maps, and for finally changing the CSB collaboration, I give you a Sunflower of Thanks. BanyanTree 20:05, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

(First of all, some petals of this Sunflower should go to Xed since he emailed me if I could update the collaboration if I had any sparetime.)
Wow! I'm surprised and very thankful. It was very nice and instructive to create the maps with the help of your sources and suggestions. Of course they wouldn't be worth much without the actual articles they are illustrating — which are, incidentally, for the most part your work. Maybe we should share this one. Many thanks again! Nice working with you! — mark ✎ 01:00, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] User:Dbenbenn/Antifinnugor draft

Hi Mark, Please see User:Dbenbenn/Antifinnugor for a nearly-final draft. Make any changes you see fit. I'll move it to RfC in a few days. Dbenbenn 19:09, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] What to do with images on WP after transfer to Commons

Good question. I don't know. I have deleted my images (since i am an admin), but I am not aware of a standard procedure to follow. There is some talk about an automatic moving of all properly tagged images to the commons, including the edit history. If this is implemented, this may take care of the duplicates. For now I would wait, and maybe add a link to the commons from the image page. -- Chris 73 Talk 01:19, Dec 28, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Antifinnugor

Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Antifinnugor is live. Dbenbenn Dbenbenn 19:18, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Happy New Year

Happy New Year to my second favourite Wikipedian! - XED.talk.stalk.mail.csb 20:51, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)