User talk:Mark0880

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[edit] April 2008

Just to let you know, I've reverted your edits to Churches of Christ. I understand what you were trying to do, but you added quite a lot of unreferenced info that appears to be original research. Information in wikipedia articles needs to be verified by reliable secondary sources. In addition, that article has been very controversial lately. I would suggest the best way to make changes in the article is to suggest such changes on the Talk:Churches of Christ page, and try and gain consensus for your changes before making them on the page. There are quite a few editors with different viewpoints editing that page, so getting consensus is a good way to start. Good luck! Redrocket (talk) 05:26, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, Redrocket. I added Encyclopedia references and Scriptural references all over the place. Mark0880 (talk) 05:51, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Again, please discuss your edits before making massive changes to the Churches of Christ page. You are continually adding unsourced material and original research to the page, and are now engaging in an edit war. Please stop reverting the changes, and take the discussion to the Talk:Churches of Christ page. I would also recommend you check out the WP:FIRST and WP:5P pages to learn a bit more about wikipedia before trying to make massive changes. Redrocket (talk) 01:02, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Again, please read the material I post. It is WELL documented. Can you not see the citations? Please communicate to me whether or not you see the many citations. Thank you!!!Mark0880 (talk) 01:16, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

RedRocket, furthermore, the sections that I update have very little citation. Mark0880 (talk) 01:16, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

You have citations, but merely quoting a Bible verse and giving your interpretation of it is not using a reliable secondary source, it's original research and not allowed on wikipedia. You appear to be posting a sermon or religious tract, and that's not what wikipedia is. Please read the wikipedia links I've given you above so you'll better understand how wikipedia works. Good luck. Redrocket (talk) 01:18, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

RedRocket, I just posted material on the talk site. Thank you for helping. I am reviewing the other sites, too. I disagree with your statement: "but merely quoting a Bible verse and giving your interpretation of it is not using a secondary source". This is why the coC site is really lacking in solid information. This is a religious site. The Bible will be the most oft used citation, and that is how it should be. (I would hope you can agree with that.)The Bible can and is its own best interpreter. As long as our postings do not go too far into the issue at hand, and the citations are simply Scripture and easy to understand,they really need to be left there. What are your thoughts? Mark0880 (talk) 01:27, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm glad you've taken it to the talk page, that's the best place to start. You need to understand, though, wikipedia is not a religious site. It's an encyclopedia. Biblical interpretations can widely vary, that's why it's best to have your information verified through reliable secondary sources. Good luck over there, I'll check back in at the page later on. Redrocket (talk) 01:38, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Mark, Welcome to the Churches of Christ talk page, which currently has limited editing protection from new and anonimous editors. There are some very passionate people who have been editing the article. It gets tough when there has been no conversation on the talk page, but everyone insists that things be their own way. Your input can be extremely helpful in modeling the dialog that is needed to begin to move the article forward so that it tells the story of the Churches of Christ in the form of an encyclopedia article that will inform any reader, regardless of their life journey, precisely what the Churches of Christ are about. I know that you will be reading the references to Wikipedia editing that have been suggested. They are the key to getting the help from those editors who are more concerned about a "Neutral Point of View" (NPOV) than they are about content. You will need their help. They on the other hand need editors who know about content for the articles. That content, to be stable, needs references like a college term paper uses references and footnotes. Otherwise it seems to only be an opinion and not NPOV. To illustrate what I am talking about, go back in the history of the article to January 2007. Then the article was too long, it had many inacuracies, but it was better documented and had a more NPOV than today.

I look forward to the give and take of editing with you, as we seek to improve the article. Welcome to the fray! John Park (talk) 02:04, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

(This is to John, as well.) Ok, sounds good RedRocket. Thank you again for putting the links in your posts. That makes it really easy for me to go to them. Wiki is a little bit disorganized sometimes. I surely understand your concerns regarding citations. I like good citations in articles, too. When it comes to Scripture, we need to allow Scripture to prove itself. Put it up on the witness stand, so to speak. What I mean is this: if I can show you fifteen different passages that say the same exact thing in slightly different wording, that IS our secondary, and tertiary source. I could always site commentaries, and I probably will in some cases. That can get really wordy, though. As long as the citations are simple Scriptural passages, and the context doesn’t get into extremes, then I believe the changes should be left. The sections that I changed hardly had any citations, and needed some “body”. I added a lot of citations and organized the sections a little. We are trying to write an article that shows how MOST churches of Christ worship and how they use Scripture. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and I love encyclopedias just like everyone else here. When it comes to the part of the encyclopedia where religion comes up, we’ll see quite a bit of Bible verses. And that’s ok. It’s when we start adding material from outside the Bible that the discussion will become difficult to understand. Cross referencing will be our best tool. Again, thank you for helping me with the links and the ways of Wiki. Mark0880 (talk) 02:31, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Hey Mark. I wanted to explain why I re-edited some of your recent changes but it looks like others got to you first. I want to second their opinion. For Wikipedia, we need unbiased content. It needs to have information but not argument. When you are making your edits its clear that you are biased - Hey, I am too! But when we add content it should be verifiable (not just quoting Scripture) and with a neutral point of view.

The problem with quoting scripture is best explained by the fact that there is such a thing as the Church of Christ at all. If Scripture was universally understood in the same way then we wouldnt have differences that prompted denominations. Remember that the readers of Wikipedia do not all believe the same way that you do about what the Bible says. They read the Church of Christ page to learn about that church - not to be told what they believe is wrong. Epecho (talk) 03:54, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Hi Epecho! Thank you for the responses. Can you give me any specific examples of this bias that is not objective in some of my postings? I'd like to make some comparisons so that I better understand everyone here. You know, I spent a lot of time thinking about biases, and citations, and such today. I want to firstly apologize for posting w/o coming here first. Of course, I was not aware of the rules/regs. (Wiki is a little disorganized) However, that is not an excuse. Maybe a reason, but not an excuse. So to everyone out there who has been perplexed and irritated by my postings, I say: I apologize. It wont happen again. I will take the orthodox methods that are the norm to make suggestions. Thank you!! Mark0880 (talk) 03:11, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Mark, Give yourself 10 extra points for the boldness of your edits and another 10 points for a big heart with a passion for sharing what you know. I hope you won't worry about "Rules And Regulations" of even being the "perfect editor." While Wikipedia at times seems like a "Free for all" contest, it really is a very disciplined community who take seriously the 5 pillars. The warning at the bottom of each edit page is real: "If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly or redistributed for profit by others, do not submit it." I look forward to the give and take of editing the Churches of Christ Article with you. Hang in there! John Park (talk) 12:10, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Some examples of Bias

Hi Mark,

There was an edit last night in the article on the Restoration movement that illustrates the challenge of Bias. Take a look at how this anonamous editor reworded it to be less hostile toward the Roman Catholic Church. Think of how a member of the Roman catholic church would perceive each of the edits. How would they feel about the Churches of Christ if this section were the only information thay had?

Sample of bias #1

John Park (talk) 11:40, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Here is another one from the Churches of Christ page which Epecho reverted.

Sample of Bias #2 John Park (talk) 11:55, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Citations and other concerns

Mark,

• I left a reply in my talk, so we do not split the conversation. You'll find help with the mechanics of making citations there.

• I want to ask you to reread RedRocket's comments on your talk page. Remember that Churches of Christ is an encyclopedia article that may be the only information some people will ever read about the Churches of Christ. What summary of information would such a reader need? What would give that person some basic information that they might remember when a friend says to them, "I have heard that the Churches of Christ are a cult, what do you think?" Then they will be able to explain that it is not so. RedRocket's observation is right, in that some of what you are contributing is more like a tract than an encyclopedia article. You and I both like the church history and the scholarly detail. Please give some thought to what is appropriate for this article and what is not.

• Featured Articles (the top quality articles in wikipedia) are about 30KB in length, they have a clear crisp style.) As it now stands the Churches of Christ is already too long at about 35KB. The writing stinks and not all who edit will use discussion to resolve differences. My question: "If you were going to make this article a featured article, what would you replace with better content? What would you drop because it does not meet Wikipedia standards for NPOV, not being a Blog or a link to promotional sites?" When you begin to understand those questions you'll begin to feel RedRocket's concerns. Good Editing to you, sir! Do it with joy! John Park (talk) 00:20, 27 April 2008 (UTC)