Talk:Maryland/North (Mid-Atlantic State) vs South (Southern State)

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Information here has been cut/pasted from the main Talk page via edit 103282613.

The purpose of this sub-discussion is to provide a forum for deciding whether Maryland should be considered a Northern, Mid-Atlantic, or Southern state. Please keep discussions civil, provided sources for your claims, and sign your posts by writing --~~~~ at the end of your edit.

To Do: Organise the information presented below, perhaps by archiving all comments and keeping only those comments which are relevant and sourced. From those, form separate sections relating to each type of consideration: geography, history, popular culture, architecture, socioeconomics, religion, politics, etc. After that, then maybe we can make some headway on this touchy issue. Or, alternatively, modify the article to remove problematic statements or to include both descriptions.

--Thisisbossi

Contents 1 Mid Atlantic State? 2 Northernisms 3 Cultural Identity, POV and Unsourced 4 NORTH? 5 SOURCING 6 Region 7 South or North 8 Verifiability 9 It's South Alright... 10 True Moral Values 11 My opinion 12 South and North 13 Ideas for Debate 14 Southern Focus Study on Maryland 15 Verifiable references 16 Not a Southern State 17 Introduction 18 Maryland is a Southern State 19 Questionable footnote and a modest proposal

[edit] Mid Atlantic State?

Maryland is a NORTHERN (Mid- Atlantic) state if the choice must be either north or south.

Arguments regarding the Mason-Dixon Line are virtually irrelevant. The Mason-Dixon Line was created between 1763 and 1767 to settle land disputes between MD and PA. It had nothing to do with north vs. south. At best, it was used "symbolically as a supposed cultural boundary between the Northern United States and the Southern United States" in popular speech-- hence the confusion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mason-Dixon_line Also, Maryland was a rather divided state during the Civil War in terms of slavery. But today, there is little question in the mind of Marylanders. Naturally, being the furthest south northern state, there is going to be cultural influence from the south-- especially in the southern part of the state just as there is northern influence in parts of VA.

As someone born and raised in Maryland, NEVER was there any question in my mind. Other than a small handful of oddball individuals I've met who have some peculiar affinity for the south and even slavery, NO Marylanders in my experience have considered themselves southern. Never in 12 years of school and four years of college was I ever taught that MD was a Southern state. Usually I was told that it's a "Mid Atlantic state" that was torn on slavery during the Civil War. Open any MD phone book and count the number of businesses with "Mid Atlantic" in their names. There are some quirky accents in MD-- especially on the Eastern Shore, but you will almost never encounter a real southern accent.

With that said, I'm amazed that everyone is so extreme in their opinion on this subject. Frankly, such cultural distinctions are not that black and white in border states. Simply standing on one side of an imaginary line makes a person identify with one culture vs. another? At the end of the day, any identification with the south in MD is from a very tiny minority.

Interesting side note-- Drive south from MD to VA on Route 13 through Pocomoke City and note the road sign near the visitor center with reads "The South Starts Here".

P.S. Anyone NOT from Maryland-- please stop assuming you understand its weather. Mild winters? Sometimes-- but we also have winters which rival those of up state New York and get our share of New England style nor'easters! Whoever said "MD gets a little snow but so does Georgia"-- how often do folks in Georgia find themselves trapped at home for several days under 36+ inches of snow or had ice storms which shut half the state down? How often have schools been closed up to a week in Georgia? I've endured it all several times.

PSF 5/7/07 207.59.160.2 22:19, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

How is it that Maryland is considered a mid Atlantic state when it lies south of the Mason-Dixon Line and D.C., which is land formerly Maryland territory, is considered a "southern" capital city? Even in the Civil War, while remaining a Union State, Maryland sympathised with the Confederacy. Although since World War II, the state's economy and political affiliations more resemble the Northeast it remains a southern state. I am changing the introductory line accordingly. --206.45.166.197 13:44, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

First off geographically it is in the middle of the Atlantic coast. Also the idea that the Mason-Dixon line as the separation is not always taken as gospel, M&D line also separated Maryland and Delaware, and considering that Delaware is also a considered a Southern State, that have been some that would put forward that that Potomac would be a better diving line. Also today Maryland is far from having a culture that is close to being in common with the culture that of the most of the South. Either way i put it back in and left southern since it officially designated that by census. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 06:27, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I am from Maryland and have lived in both Maryland and Virginia. Let me just say this: the idea that Maryland is a Southern state is absolutely disgusting, perhaps one of the most insulting things I have ever heard. I am going to change this section of the article. Boothy is right; the Mason Dixon line today is essentially void, marking only a historical division. The Potomac more clearly and more practically demarcates the separation between South and Northeast. Consider, if you will, that Maryland is: one of the ten wealthiest states in the country; a heavy industrial and technological center; home to the vibrant city of Baltimore, one of the most important in the United States; a state with Northern weather that includes severe winters (I don't care what the climate section says: I lived there for sixteen years, experienced the Blizzard of 1996, and watched heavy snowfall take down half of the B&O Railroad Museum); a state that did not secede the Union like the craven Southern blood traitors in 1861; and, perhaps most importantly, one of the Democratic Party's most faithful strongholds.

In Maryland (where I lived, by the way), there is widespread derision so far as the South is concerned, and we had a tendency to view even neighboring Virginia as backward and alien. My own move to Virginia confirmed this; with the exception of Fairfax and Loudoun counties, the state is a wasteland. Southerners don't even think of us as Southerners. They hate us for being liberal, richer, and better-educated than they are.

That reminds me: Maryland also has one of the best school systems in the nation. In fact, we have the second highest number of students passing AP exams in the country.

Just think about this. Outstanding schools, advanced industry, enormous wealth, widespread affluence, strongly Democratic tendencies, hatred of the South (and of our dear President)--do these sound like the traits of a Southern state?

A quick look at the 2004 electoral map will show you what I'm talking about. There's a reason that Maryland is Blue. I will be changing the cultural section very soon. User: History21

Wow, as a proud native Marylander and a graduate of UMD who now lives in GA, i've got to say that your anti-South rant is one of the most blatantly biased, historically ignorant, and irrationally bigoted diatribes i've ever encountered. You are filled with a lot of hate. Maryland is neither northern or southern. It's unique.Jcpaco 12:01, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

While I agree with the most of what you have said, the problem is that "official" regional definition are set by the census, and the census places the state in South Atlantic region, which is part of the Souther region. Also, there are still significant amounts of residents who would consider the state as part of the South and not part of the North. Also, your argument about relation to Southern culture can and has been used in the same way with the North. So I see no real reason to remove the mention other then a POV reason. I will tighten up the definition a bit, though. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 04:39, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Good discussion. One way to look at the North-South divide is to see where the plantations were before the Civil War. A very rough guide would place the Eastern Shore and Southern Maryland (from Annapolis south) as southern, with Baltimore and points north and west as northern. (I grew up in Howard County and always considered myself a northerner, but realized later that things were quite different just a few miles away.) Ken Gallager 16:21, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

The whole industry thing boggles me as a bit 50 years ago, too. Industry has INVADED the South, too. Just go to Atlanta or Birmingham and you'll find much the same as you do in Baltimore. Having grown up in Baltimore (amongst other states) for a big chunk of my life, I find the culture of the people more in line with the South: slightly backward, goofy, and traditional in many ways. The state votes democratic because of the high proportion of African Americans and trhe fact that metropolitan Washington DC has become a haven for northerners and people really from all over the country. Go down to Easton or Cambridge and it's as southern as Savannah or Mobile. And as for Baltimore having "severe" winters? Ha! Whoever said that has obviously never lived in Chicago, Cleveland, Buffalo, Denver, Minneapolis, or any other of the hundreds of U.S. locales that get WAY colder and have WAY more frequent snowstorms than MD does. Climate wise, the eastern 2/3rds of MD has more in common with N. Georgia than it does with N. Dakota. Sorry. Just the facts.

Why is it that the only two people who actually grew up in Maryland (Ken Gallager and myself) actually consider themselves to be Northerners? Who are you to compare us to the South? How dare you? "Just the facts?" The facts are that Marylanders find the South abhorrent, that we resent the political influence that it wields, and that we consider the mindless Neanderthals on our southern border at best a necessary evil. We are nothing, nothing like them.

And Maryland doesn't have severe winters? Maybe not in comparison to Minnesota, but in comparison to the South (which it is supposedly a part of), the state is frigid. At my own home, it was not uncommon for January temperatures to sink to 7 degrees. I'm sure that happens in North Georgia all the time. And the 1996 and 2003 blizzards, they no doubt affected the Carolinas as well. It makes my blood boil to think that people actually lump us into the same category with those...people.

Absolutely disgusting.

And what of the real facts? What of the state's schools, its politics, its wealth, its influence? In my old town, there are still bullet holes in some homes from when the traitorous Confederate filth marched their way over our virgin soil, defiling and disgracing our state with their foul invasion. Maryland was raped. Don't you think we ever forgot that.

And when push came to shove, early Confederate sympathies did not matter; as the Southerners carried out their abomination, Marylanders banded together to barricade Baltimore that they might advance no farther. We are different in every way imaginable. Beyond statistics, our spirits are wholly separate. I was raised in Maryland and only learned after moving that some stubbord (and unknowledgeable) people had the nerve to call us a Southern state. It is just not so. Sorry. Just the facts. Oooooooh! Oh, you've got some kind of nerve! User: History21

Folks, Maryland was unquestionably considered a southern (or "border") state at the time of the Civil War. Times have changed, and the state's southern identity seems largely to have been lost (something that can arguably be said for DC and most of Northern Virginia as well). We might want to phrase it thus: "While traditionally considered a Southern or border state, Maryland today is more closely identified with the mid-Atlantic, or even Northeastern United States." ...and then explain why (then: plantations, slavery; now: DC-to-Boston megalopolis).

One joke I heard often when I lived in MD: "Northern charm, southern efficiency." ProhibitOnions 13:36, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Maryland is a Mid-Atlantic state. I have lived my whole life in Maryland and I never heard it called anything else while I was going to school or by anyone born in Maryland. However, The eastern shore of Maryland has more in commom with the south. The suburbs of D.C. and Baltimore have more in commom with the north. Maryland is just a mixed bag. It has both Northern and Southern culture.People just don't like to admit it. I do not consider myself a Northerner or Southerner.I have to say the person who said how great the schools are...well look at P.G. County and Baltimore city schools.They are not great. The eastern shore of Maryland is not a democratic stronghold by any means.

Just a Statement I'd like to say something here about this whole debate. I was born in Maryland, raised in Maryland, raised my children in Maryland, and taught school in Maryland for three decades. So far as I knew, and so far as my fellow Marylanders have been concerned, we were always a Northern state. I did not realize that this was a question until seeing this page. User:Joan53

Which is my point in the comment above. But we weren't alive in, say, 1860, when Maryland would have been considered very much a Southern state. (I find the idea strange myself, being a sort-of Tennessean who lived in MD for several years.) Remember also that the site of Washington DC was chosen for its Southern location. ProhibitOnions 13:24, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm offended that anyone would consider Maryland northern OR southern. We've always been in the middle, that's the way I've always seen it. Putting Maryalnd in the Mid Atlatic doesn't necessarily make us northern, in fact I've always seen the Mid Atlantic as a grouping for the states that have areas of northern and southern culture.

As for putting Maryland in the north based on politcal leanings, I think the red-purple-blue counties map is more of an accruate way of seeing where politics lie here than the red state-blue state map. You can clearly see that it is only the majority of the Baltimore-Washington Metropolitan Area that is blue.

I also find it funny that while another argument for Maryland being northern was our good schools, someone brought up that Baltimore City and PG County schools are failing, and take another look at that election map and see which two "counties" are the bluest (and therefore most "northern").

I think that only proves that Maryland is in the middle, so the article should say that many people put Maryland in a definition of the Mid Atlantic which doesn't necessarily include it in the North. -Jeff ^(talk) 16:13, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Jeff (and others), While I respect your opinion I must disagree with you. To begin with, the "counties map" is deliberately deceptive; many of the Red counties on the map are no more than empty expanses of land populated by a few people. Republicans hold no serious control in Maryland. The overwhelming majority of Maryland's population is concentrated in the vicinity of either Baltimore or Washington, DC. If the Republican counties had electorates even nearly as large as the urban counties, Maryland wouldn't be so fiercely liberal. I am generally not riled by this sort of thing, but find the map tactic to be underhanded. User:Joan53

I laugh that you find cold hard stats deceiving, and that the rural counties of Maryland are desolate and therefore uninmportant. Wikipedia is not a place to espouse your agenda and its often illogical biases. WillC 23:56, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Why get so heated, WillC? Joan is right, anyways, that map is deceiving, just look at this cartogram where the counties are shown by population size, as opposed to area. Using a generous definition of what is considered outside the BW area (the whole eastern shore, the three southern Maryland counties, and four western Maryland counties), only about 1,170,000 people live outside central Maryland of the state's 5,600,000, or about 1/5th of the population, and it shouldn't be taken for granted that all of these areas are conservative as both maps show that there are no pure red areas. This discussion is getting a little ridiculous and has made it clear that most of Maryland is northern, with outlying regions less so, as could be said for Pennsylvannia, Illinois, or other traditionally northern states, and I say this as someone who grew up in the BW area. In no way is Maryland hotly contested in presidential elections, Kerry won by 13 percent in 2004! User:drewbwhite

Northern does not equal liberal as you imply. I sense an anti-rural bias here and it best not creep onto the main page. WillC 01:03, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

WillC, My "agenda" is the truth, and I would appreciate you're not talking to me in that manner. This map (http://www-personal.umich.edu/~mejn/election/countycart3070large.png) is the truth. I'm not taking sides here, but I feel like the Republican side is getting artificial representation here. I don't like that, not one bit. And I didn't say that the rural counties are worthless; I merely said that most of the people don't live in them, so their votes are not reflective of reality. Thank you. Joan53

What truth do you represent? And your statements imply that rural votes are not as important as beltway votes....please....take your agenda elsewhere. WillC 01:15, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm aware that liberalness is not alone enough to qualify the state as a northern one, after all Pennsylvannia is a swing state and several northern states have republican governors, but most of the discussion here seems to indicate that Maryland should be placed in a mid-atlantic category, with outlying, less densely populated areas noted as a cultural exception. There isn't anti-rural bias here and I'm not advocating that the west, south, and east be neglected, it's just that most of the state's population is urban and the page is going to and should reflect that. The other areas are exceptions, not the rule, and for wikipedia to say anything else would just be a lie. I welcome additions that tell more about the culture out west and on the eastern shore, both of which are interesting areas with a more appalacian and southern flavor respectively, but I'm leaving it to someone with more familiarity with the subject, and I do think the recent additions to the cultural identity section are just a quagmire of biased statistics that don't reflect the regional variations in the state. Screaming bias everytime someone posts something you don't agree with isn't going to add to the discussion here, and I did not imply that northern equals liberal, but you can't deny that it's a big factor. Based on your comments and user page if anyone has an agenda here it would be you. User:drewbwhite

As a wikipedia veteran, I can assure you I know bias when I see it. And for me to see on the main Maryland page that the South is both poor and uneducated, and then used to justify MD as a northern state, is more than i can take as a good-faith contributor here. Those comments are as unsourced and POV as you can get on wikipedia. Go with the fact that the census bureau regards maryland as Southern, as does the Mason-Dixon Line. Where you think it is based on the placement of your housing development in the Western Shore surburbs has no basis on fact and therefore no place on wikipedia. All you all are doing is throwing poo by trying to place Maryland where you think it should be. (Plural)--> Your comments are not encyclopedic and do not belong here. WillC 01:27, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

I support removing many of the facts from the cultural identity section, but it is true that of the ten richest states by personal per capita income none are southern. Both the census bureau and the Mason-Dixon definitions are dated, and if you consider the Mason-Dixon line a legitimate cultural barrier, you certainly are out of touch. Are you even a Marylander? I lived the first 18 years of my life there and saw most of the state, and what I primarily object to is the tone you take here. No one is being biased, and the facts show that the overwhelming majority of people in Maryland live in the central urban area, about 80 percent in the more immediate suburban counties with Montgomery and Prince George's both having nearly a million each, so why throw insults? I agree that the section was biased, but it shouldn't be thrown out, but restructured, as all of the facts about Maryland were legitimate and did show similarities with the northeast.User:drewbwhite

And it has been restructured to a more-NPOV and thus wiki-friendly tone and format. WillC 01:41, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

I am becoming rather tired with the constant reversion in the cultural section of any fact that doesn't fit into what you think Maryland should be or what the South should not be. This is not a format for Southern nationalism, and the fact that you find the South's financial position to be insulting does not mean it isn't true. This is not disputed; Maryland and the other top ten states fall outside of the Southern category. As always, these things are open for discussion, but wealth and industry are decidedly Northern characteristics, characteristics that Maryland happens to share. You cannot just delete anything that doesn't sit well with you.

The sheer fact that Maryland is Democratic doesn't make it Northeastern. The financial and educational sections are integral components to the state's classification.

Joan53

I am on the verge of having this article locked because of unjustified reversions of verified material. Stop doing this. Joan53

SOURCE YOUR EDITS. WillC 02:17, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Alright, I support the addition of the old cultural identity section by Joan, but I think more needs to be said about the Eastern Shore and Western Maryland. These regions have prospered with the rest of the state, though to a lesser degree, and maintain much of their southern flavor. Some of the wording bothers me a bit, and I may go in and change a couple things because right now it sort of makes the south sound like a forsaken backwater in a couple of places.

Okay, I just looked back at the article and saw that Will had deleted the whole section again, even reverting back to the poorly formated original version that I've changed twice for spelling and looks (which includes "Republicansim," which I'm pretty sure is not a word unless I'm just out of it). Please just give it a rest. Rather than deleting large swaths of the article, change the wording, delete selectively, and add, because the section pointed out many true and relevant facts, though I do agree it makes it seem as though the writer has a bone to pick with the south. I'm just not going to bother anymore with this.

User:drewbwhite

I think there should be a vote. I lived the first 24 years of my life in Balto city, the next 2 in Cockeysville, the next 6 in Durham NC, the next 5 in Sarasota FL, and now I live in Catonsville (Baltimore suburb) and I've asked around in my travels. I believe MD to be a Mid-Atlantic state (I believe this term to apply to DE, VA, NC and possibly NJ and PA as well). And I think that both Southerners and Northerners would accept this categorization as being the most apt description for MD. I could've somewhat agreed with the ranter's attitude about the south when I was young and stupid but think he's all wet now. Besides, Balto tried to secede from the Union in the civil war (Pratt street riots) and murdered the northern troops from Boston that were lodged in a Balto hotel while passing through to DC. The federal government had to violently suppress Baltimore's secession. That tells me that even the area he's referring to in his rant was at least highly sympathetic to the southern cause. Like another poster has posted above, I've always personally felt that MD is a mix and therefore "Mid-Atlantic" and the southern areas in which I've lived and travelled more or else see things that way as well (although Balto's early industrialization is probably the best argument for a "Northern" categorization).

What's causing the settlement of this argument to become somewhat muddled is that Maryland was considered a border state during the American Civil War. I would say that one way to settle the dispute as to whether Maryland is or is not a Mid-Atlantic state is to look at the predominate position of Maryland during the American Civil War -- that is, determine whether Maryland seceded with other Confederate states and whether Maryland showed strong ties at that time with the Union. →Lwalt ^♦ talk 15:50, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Northernisms

Since when has “Urban” equaled North and “Rural” a synonym for South? That is totally illogical. You can’t argue the point that since Central MD is Urban/Suburban its a Northern State, that’s foolish. If that’s the case rural upstate New York as well as the State of Maine should be called Southern and Urban/Industrialized Atlanta and Miami are Northern. How logical is that? Just because Maryland has a large urbanized city that gets a little snow doesn’t make it a Northern state (Atlanta even gets a little snow). How come it seems wherever “Northerners” move to in massive droves; the area settled becomes know as “northern” for example Southern Florida, if you’d go any further south you’d be in the sea, yet this area is not considered to be “Southern” the same is to be said about Phoenix, AZ; Baltimore, MD; Washington, DC; Suburban Delaware (Wilmington) and Virginia. As if the North is some ever expanding Amoeba that is slowly engulfing the country. The south has be stigmatized so much that is has become taboo to be considered a Southerner. And just because a state is politically one way or the other doesn’t make it Northern or southern. They have democrats in the South and Republicans in the North. The Republicans freed the slaves for goodness sake! Due to the large influx of immigrant workers and presence of minorities of which most of these demo graphics vote Democratic are the reasons why Maryland, Washington, DC and to a lesser extent Virginia are overwhelmingly liberal with the latter being a bit more conservative outside of the major cities. As an African-American who lived in both Maryland and Virginia, I’ve grown to accept the fact that we are “southern” although if asked I state that I’m from the Mid-Atlantic. I hate to get into these North/South debates. I wish the east coast was more like the west coast. I never hear of Seattle & Portland bickering with LA or Southern Cali resenting San Francisco. D-Law The Monster from the Mid-Atlantic

[edit] Cultural Identity, POV and Unsourced

Well it seems that history has taken it's attempt to define Maryland as a Northern only state form the discussion page to the article it's self. The user has basically rehashed his point of view as stated above into the article, w/o hardly a source to back up any of his claims, most of which have little to no bearing in the Cultural Identity of the state or on it's regional classification. Besides the fact the the section now is grossly misleading in practically all contexts, historical, cultural, informative, and so on, it is an extremely narrow def in that it really only describes the Balt-Wash metro, and basically discounts, Western Maryland, Southern Maryland, and the Eastern Shore. To but is simply the section is little more then a rant due to the fact that the user cant get with the idea that census classified the state in the South Atlantic division for official statistical purposes, and in all regards should just be removed. But i'll leave it in and hope someone can sort threw the mess, for now. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 04:12, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Well since the pov has yet to be delt with, and the section contines to be mostly unsourced, and that the current sources do not back up the claim of the rant, as it is not a section, i am giving the section untill Wed, and if not NPOV by then then i am removing back to the former version on the grounds of that it is POV, and the it violates WP:NOT --Boothy443 | trácht ar 05:22, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

First off, "its", not "it's"; and my god the second comment is virtually incoherant. and blah blah hello i am a spelling grammar naziboy (self-vandalism - N ) - however. As a resident of Maryland, I have always felt that Maryland should be considered a "northern" state. Looking on a map, if one were to draw a line equidistant from the northern tip of Maine and the southern tip of Florida, Maryland would easily be in the north. While Virginia (along with the rest of what is commonly termed "the south") has a reputation for, shall we say, conservative politics, Maryland has been one of the more moderate states in the union (c.f. the Walmart decision, the anti-polygraph legislation, etc). While one finds a slightly more conservative, hick-ass (apologies, but I'm in a rush and can't think of a nice way to put it) attitude prevalant (sic?) along the eastern shoreboard, for the most part, even up in the mountains, Maryland is more a Boston than an Atlanta. I could go into architecture, landscapes, and a whole mess of et cetery to further support my viewpoint - which is, simply put, that it is hardly controversial to consider Maryland a part of the North, and frankly the only way a "southern" definition would stick is if we throw out everything except the Mason Dixon line - and then where exactly would that leave Los Angeles? If one is willing to consider California a "southern state" based on the Mason Dixon line, then that autistic insanity has won my, uh, respect. --Nugneant 09:43, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Will: First you are unable to come to grips with the North being poorer than the South, and now that the North is more densely populated and urban than the South. If you don't see how Maryland being more urban does not tie it closely with the North, there is no hope in even bothering trying to discuss with you. I don't see how that's "Poor logic," it's one of the most fundamental differences between the Northeast and South. Please stop blatantly promoting your Southern agenda here, you can't omit and bend facts to make Maryland look more Southern than it is. Your argument that Maryland is mostly rural is also worthless, as that holds true of almost any state, including larger northern states. Southern culture is practiced in southern Illinois, should we stop considering it a Northern state? Also, the sentence that says that "17 of 24 jurisdictions are completely rural" is false. You say that as an argument to show that Maryland is more Southern, and then when I say that most of the people living in urban areas ties it to the North you call my statement poor logic? So you get to say that Maryland shares large rural areas in common with the South (not even a good point) but I don't get to cite its large, dense urban areas as a tie with the North? You've stated that Maryland has large rural areas, that historically the state was tied with the South, and that the state is below the Mason-Dixon line. This does little to disprove more substantial cultural or economic ponts that group the state with the Midatlantic area.User:Drewbwhite

Finally, your elitist materialistic agenda comes out. You view the South as some poverty-stricken backwater that you are scared to acknowledge exists....is that because the other elitists in your Beltway neighborhood might think lesser of you? By the way, let's count the rural Maryland counties: Garrett, Allegany, Washington, Frederick, Carroll, Harford, Cecil, Kent, Queen Anne's, Caroline, Talbot, Dorchester, Somerset, Worcester, Wicomico, St. Mary's, Charles, and Calvert. 18! Agriculture is the number one sector of the economy in every single one FACT. I'll let you subtract one bedroom county just because I'm nice. Furthermore, Illinois is a Midwestern, not a Northeastern state. Has no bearing in this discussion. But let's talk about density. Tokyo and Mexico City have dense populations...by your logic that makes them Northeastern. Florida and Texas...both densely populated....Northern then? There is such a thing as a Southern city. You are using poor logic and I am calling you out on your semantics. WillC 20:21, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

I have no idea how you read such things into my statement. I acknowledge that the North is richer and now I'm anti-south? Statistics prove it. Is the census biased? I don't object to you calling those counties rural, just "completely" rural. Many of them have strong ties to the urban areas, and rural-ness does little to tie a state with the south. By the way, I wasn't calling Illinois northeastern, but NORTHERN, which it is, with pockets of southern culture. Oh, and Texas isn't densely populated in the slightest, it's ranked 28th. Even its big cities, like Houston for instance, have low population densities due to the availability of land and their later development, after the advent of the car. Houston has about the same population density of suburban Columbia, Maryland (just a bit above 1000 people/km squared). Please, "elitist?" Why do you turn this into a personal attack? I grew up in Maryland but my family is from Georgia, Tennessee, Virginia, Alabama, and Mississippi. Bos-Wash is a bit different from Atlanta or Houston. It's not I who hates the South, but you who loves it, as evidenced by your user page, and perhaps you also dislike the North. I have nothing but admiration for most aspects of Southern culture, but it is not prevalent in Maryland. You basically said that I said: the Northeastern United States is dense and urban, therefore all dense urban areas are Northeastern American. Therefore apparently I said that Mexico City and Tokyo belong in the Northeast United States. What I actually said was that the Northeast United States is dense and urban and that Maryland shares the characteristic, and that most Marylanders live in the BosWash megalopolis. I did not say that high population density is exclusive to the Northeast. I did not say that there are no urban areas in the South. You said that the South is more rural and agricultural "yourself." My logic doesn't make Mexico City northeastern, stop taking the points out of context. This is a discussion of whether an American border state is more Northern or Southern, and the South is less dense and more rural while the North is more so, with most of its population living in urban areas. Is that not true? Is that not fact? Western China is rural, does that make it southern? How about Chiapas, Mexico? There, I just applied your logic to your own point. Nice counterargument.That's a very fundamental logical fallacy you made. I don't see how that is biased vandalism. User:Drewbwhite

[edit] NORTH?

Maryland is not a northern state because it is below the Mason-Dixon Line. WillC 12:30, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

You know what else is below the Mason Dixon line? Most of California. --Nugneant 09:47, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Not true. The Mason-Dixon line ends at the border of PA and W. VA. California was not even a part of this country when the line was surveyed in 1767.

It is a "mix" state. In colonial times, it BECAME a slave state because 2/3rds on it has more topographical similarity to the southern states (loamy, sandy soil, as opposed to the rocky soils of the Northeast), and Baltimore had more in common climate-wise with Atlanta than it did with Boston. It has become more industrialized and urban, but so have Charlotte, Atlanta, Birmingham, Nashville, and Memphis.

Drive down to Easton, MD sometime and stop at any gas station. Ask the cashier a question and listen for him to talk. You'll know you're in the SOUTH.

Those who have no idea where the line is drawn and ends and those who have no idea about its significance should not be commenting on it in the main article. Furthermore, why is it that the argument that every pro-Northern person here uses to justify MD as a Northern states is "I THINK IT IS SO IT MUST BE?" That ain't gonna fly here. WillC 10:31, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

I am neutral on the entire issue (despite having spent a good deal of the former part of my life in Maryland), but I feel a lot of the conflict about Maryland's culture identity as part of North and South comes from its proximity to Washington, D.C. There's a good mix of people from both sides of the MDL, as it's said. There's probably a better way to phrase the debate, but we won't find it by beating each other up. Anyhoo, those are my $0.02. :) Danny Lilithborne 10:36, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree wholeheartedly. NoIdeaNick 21:39, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] SOURCING

I kindly urge all to document their edits; if not, you risk having your info removed. For starters, unless you have a formall poll showing that many Marylanders hate being called Southern, it has to go. Blanket statements such as the South has poor schools falls in the same category. New Wiki users should take a moment to read policies on good faith editing, non-point-of-view statements, and removing bias, etc.... WillC 00:17, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the north/south cultural conflict section of the article needs to be better sourced. On the other hand, it's important to include a discussion of Maryland's cultural identity. Of course Wikipedia's NPOV policy needs to be followed throughout, but there is truth to the statement that many Marylanders resent being called Southern. There is also truth to the statement that some people in Maryland consider their state a part of the South. What the article needs is a neutral, sourced discussion of the views of Marylanders, but it would be a disservice to the article and to Wikipedia as a whole to exclude a discussion of the issue. When I get the chance (hopefully in the next few days) I will make an attempt to find sources for an NPOV discussion of Maryland's cultural identity. NoIdeaNick 17:36, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

You have no definite proof that any Marylander resents being grouped as Southern. WillC 20:08, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

I have lived in Maryland my whole life and I can tell you there are plenty of Marylanders who resent being called Southern. But you don't have to take my word for it. That's why Wikipedia has verifability and NPOV policies. Considering how commonly (in my experience) Marylanders consider themselves non-Southern, I'm sure it has been written about. When I get a chance, I will hunt down some of these writings and write an NPOV section for the article. The question of whether Maryland is truly part of the South culturally is beside the point. All that matters is having an NPOV discussion of those views. NoIdeaNick 20:18, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. I'm a Marylander, who got into vicious arguments with a Bostontonian with the same POV "commonly shared" (Maryland = the south because Mason Dixon hurr hurr). Basically I believe that defining it as the Mason Dixon line is ridiculously arbitrary and (in the friend's case) only an excuse to belittle others. You know what else is south of the Mason Dixon? Most of California. Is California going to be a "southern" state? Here I always thought "south" would be a relative term, you know, like if you took a point on northern Maine, a point on central Florida, and drew a line equidistant to both - but I guess I'm a product of superior education, and have a lot to learn from isolated hicks. Hey, since we're all south of Santa Claus, we're all Southern States. --Nugneant 10:01, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

And I know just as many people from Maryland who think of themselves as Southern, enjoy the Southern lifestyle, and KNOW THEY LIVE BELOW THE MASON DIXON LINE. So what is your point? WillC 20:39, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

I know a boy named Sue. It therefore follows that Sue is a boy's name. I know someone who likes being hit. Therefore all people like being hit. --Nugneant 10:01, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

My point is that any discussion of Maryland's cultural identity ought to mention both those who think of themselves as southern and those who don't. The Mason-Dixon line is the traditional dividing line between the North and the South, but there are those who would question whether the Mason-Dixon line is any longer a legitimate cultural border. I'm not saying it is and I'm not saying it isn't. I'm just saying that it's a point of debate in Maryland, and that debate ought to be included in the article. NoIdeaNick 21:21, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree. But it needs to be even and as of now it is not. Say there is an argument and leave it at that. WillC 21:22, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Also, there's no surveys that state that a majority of respondants consider Assateague Island "the most noted feature of Delaware, Maryland, and Virginia", so I think that has to go as well. Not to mention that I have a friend from Russia who considers a Maryland summer unbearably hot and muggy, and Maryland winters pretty damn tropical. So can we see a poll that declares what "moderately cold" and "warm" mean? Also, finally, I have a business acquaintance on the Moon who believes that "significant" means, in fact, "of least importance" - and he enjoys this, and LIVES BELOW THE MASON DIXON LINE. So how about a poll confirming this? Thanks - --Nugneant 10:01, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I think we're actually in agreement about this. The cultural section of the article is clearly not NPOV and might even be considered original research as it now stands. I was just announcing my intention to seriously clean up the section with sourced information when I get a chance. NoIdeaNick 21:24, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Please do. WillC 21:43, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

I would just like to note that the entire Northern side of the argument is well-sourced, while the Southern side doesn't have a single citation to back it up.

History21

But your "facts" are irrelevant. I will add 2 + 2 = 4 to the article and will condemn anyone who deletes it. It's a FACT! WillC 12:07, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

The Northern side of the argument is well sourced ? Honestly, that is just your bias. I was taught in Maryland Public Schools that Maryland was a Mid-Atlantic state with Southern heritage. Look up Maryland in an encyclopedia and you will see words like Mid-Atlantic , Middle Atlantic and South Eastern. A lot of the debate here seems political. Some Marylanders may consider themselves Northern and some may consider themselves Southern but isn't that just personal opinion of how they see themselves or relate to. Mike 17:16, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

EXACTLY! WillC 17:38, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Here are a few interesting things. First of all, a NASA website that lists Baltimore as Northeastern:http://eosweb.larc.nasa.gov/HPDOCS/misr/misr_html/philadelphia.html.

And a number of maps and things: http://www.gradschools.com/giffile/usmap4.gif

http://www.odfl.com/locator/USNorthEast.jsp

http://www.woolworks.org/stores/us_ne.html

http://genealogypro.com/directories/USA-NE.html

http://home.att.net/~Lamont.Downs/rr/ne.html

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Record_snowfall_in_Northeastern_United_States (this is from Wikipedia itself)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10958587&dopt=Abstract

http://gbgm-umc.org/usa/northeastern.html

http://www.nffs.org/html/northe.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Real_Freshmen_Handbook (this, a description of a book from 1996, also on Wikipedia)

As usual, your citations aren't relevant. The official one is The Census. Maybe I'll make a map showing Alaska as a tropical state since it is stuck next to Hawaii in the corner of some maps. Regardless, I could find several other handpicked sites that put MD in the Southeast. If you understood how to play this game you would have given examples of both sides and we could have weighed in on their credibility here. You say I have an agenda? You just incriminated yourself....again. One more time....everyone else here is adding info that shows it is a border state with characteristics of both North and South. You want to make it Northern only and you have no leg to stand on. Admit to yourself that MD is peculiar and be done with this. WillC 19:45, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Silly redneck! Try as you might to cling to the idea that the South still has at least one state that could be considered even slightly modern, prosperous, or progressive, your efforts are for naught. Maryland will never be a Southern state, no matter how many sources you delete (doing away with information you don't like in very Southern fashion, I might add!) or how loudly you complain. And in case you haven't noticed yet, most of the people here disagree with you, but are too blown away by the sheer foolishness of your arguments that they become so frustrated as to be unable to continue. Once again, you do your region justice--just don't try to say that it's our region. We wouldn't want any greasy, sweaty Southern hands touching our state, now would we? You just stay south of the Potomac where you belong ("you" being a collective, not referring to any one person). Maryland will keep treading its Northeastern track while unknowledgeable (or delusional) fools like you (this time singular) babble on about how it is theoretically Southern. Oh, wow. And I thought that Wikipedia was supposed to reflect reality! Have a nice day, Mr. WillC. Catch some opposums for me!

History21 20:07, 7 May 2006 (UTC)History21

Your last post violates Wikipedia policy on namecalling and civility. Furthermore, I'm not the only one to revert your misleading sources...for the last several days people have been weighing in and siding with my NPOV statements on thr main article...ironically, people you tried to recruit to edit against me! Lastly, if there is anyone complaining -- and loudly -- it is you. For the last time, READ THE POLICIES OF WIKIPEDIA. WillC 20:33, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh, History21... Silly Yankee! As is usual with your sort of people, your arrogance precedes you! I thought that I was the only one to be slighted by your genius when I realized that you had added onto my article The Real Freshmen Handbook (assuming no doubt that a dumb Georgian couldn't possibly complete the piece on his own), and yet it turns out that you have afflicted numerous users with your pseudo-intellectual twittering! As is the case with so many Northerners, you have managed to take a decent argument and contaminate it with such pure snobbishness and bigotry (surely you've realized by now that you Northerners can be bigoted?) that all others discard your logic with disgust.

Bang-up job!

I was born and raised in Georgia, lived there until my seventeenth birthday, spent a mercifully short three months in the blessed Northern paradise known as Maryland, and have resided since in California. So long as Maryland being a Northern state, you couldn't be more correct; I realized from your condescending, self-righteous idiocy that only a diehard Yankee could have been ranting against the supposed evils of Dixie. I checked out some of your posts on people's talk pages. So Robert E. Lee is "traitor-filth," huh?

That is the same kind of mindless discrimination and visceral, groundless dislike that I found myself subject to every day while living in what I have come to regard as this Union's most accursed state. For claiming to be a land of tolerance and acceptance, you all sure know how to make a person feel utterly miserable for their cultural roots. Marylanders would jabber on and on about how much they loved President Clinton--but let me show a Southern flag and they were ready to burn me at the stake. Such an enlightened people!

You dare to say that Maryland was "raped?" What kind of fantasy world do you live in? You want to talk about rape? Talk about Georgia. Talk about Richmond. Talk about the hundreds of miles of devastated farmland, the shattered generations, the heart of an entire nation that was utterly and completely eviscerated.

You horrible people, subjugators who pretended to be subjugated, will never know what the Civil War was really about, nor can you know what the South is really about. You want to claim that what makes you different is your money, your malls, your cities, your schools? That's fine. In fact, I'll support it. I've been to both placed, and Maryland outpaced Georgia in absolutely everything. I'm not ashamed of it. We haven't all been blessed to grow up in Grand Pa Washington's backyard. But that's still not what separates us.

What separates us is a wall, a wall of love on one side and iron on the other. The Potomac is as much a spiritual (to borrow your word) boundary as a political one. We are distinguished by our faith in God, our hospitality, our independence, our chivalry, our nobility, and our respect. You are distinguished by your lack thereof.

So yes, Maryland is a Northern state. In fact, Maryland is as Northern as it is possible to be. You reject the South? Ha, that makes me laugh. We reject you. We don't want or need your vicious cruelty, your mocking, your mean spirits. Keep all of that to yourselves.

For those of you here trying to claim Maryland as a Southern or even a border state, that battle was ended long ago. Maryland had the chance to show her allegiance. She chose her side, and there she remains. The intentions of people like WillC and many others are good, but the answer lies in the very contrast between History21 and the others. It is about decency, courtesy, and respect.

Harper32 22:25, 8 May 2006 (UTC)Harper32

I think this all has gone too far. I have been reading wikipedia for years and I decided to sign up. I was doing some research for this article because I am a Marylander and I thought I could add to it. Now with all this nonsense I have lost interest. Mike 22:31, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Region

I did a quick Google search for Mid Atlantic States and 19 of the first 20 hits included Maryland in the region. While I know that doesn't prove anything, it does suggest that in popular usage if someone says "Mid-Atlantic" they mean to include Maryland. In contrast searches on Sourthern States and Northeastern States hits that were referring to a region included Maryland 6 out of 20 and 8 out of 20 times respectively. I'd also like to point out the U.S. Regions WikiProject recommendation to not abuse the Census Bureau regions, specifically "census regions should never be used to exclude a state from or lock it permanently into a region." I think the current intro places undue importance on the census bureau definition.

As for the Cultural Identity section I think it could be deleted entirely, as it is it's POV and clashes with the rest of the article. It's already written about in a much more NPOV fashion in History of Maryland. Most of the articles I've found talking about it are talking about the civil war era, so that seems a better place for it anyway. Kmusser 15:08, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

The issue is more about how Marylanders view themselves today, rather than the history of the Civil War. I think you're right when you say that the History of Maryland article covers that quite well. You may be right about scrapping the cultural identity section. The article may be much better served by having a sentence or two noting the cultural tug-of-war that Maryland has always found itself a part of as a state on the border between North and South. NoIdeaNick

In fact, the article on the Southern United States does a pretty good job of this. To quote from that article: "Southern influence waned considerably in Delaware and the urbanized portions of Maryland, but remains present in parts of rural Maryland, especially the state's Eastern Shore." NoIdeaNick 18:38, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

My entire thesis has been that Maryland is both Southern and Northern. That is what User:History21 does not get.....STILL. He wants to make it Northern only. There is your biased contributor. So either keep it NPOV using facts as both or toss it altogether. WillC 20:34, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

OK, I've checked 3 dictionaries (2 paper ones and www.dictionary.com) and they all place Maryland as Mid-Atlantic. Note that Mid-Atlantic does not necessary mean "North" (despite what the Census Bureau may say). I'm going to change the intro accordingly unless someone gives me a good reason not to. Kmusser 14:02, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. I also hope that everyone reads Harper32's little tirade against me, as it has received virtually no response. When I finally lashed out (after much provocation), WillC informed me that my comments were inappropriate and an administrator told me I had violated Wikipedia policy and advised that I not refer to WillC as a "silly redneck." Apparently no one is bothered by references to "silly Yankees" and the "foulest state in the Union" or whatever it was. So where are the WikiPolice when it's a Northerner being assailed?

History21 23:36, 9 May 2006 (UTC)History21

[edit] South or North

I received the following message when I logged on, "There is an unholy mess in the Maryland article regarding a section entitled "cultural identity." Most of the editors agree that the state is a Northern one, and many facts have been posted and adequately cited to prove that fact. A Confederate sympathizer, however, is constantly going onto the article, removing cited information, and replacing it with unsourced "statistics" that steer Maryland into the Southern category. Please read the whole debate, weigh in, and please, PLEASE, help. History21"

I think Maryland could easily be described as a technically-Southern state that never seceded from the Union. That's the response I typically give, and it seems people tend to accept it.

I haven't read the article, or the debate, but I hope my two cents are useful to you.

Allixpeeke 21:46, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

I concur. Maryland is south of the Mason-Dixon line and would have voted to secede if not for the kidnapping of its legislators by the Union Army.

Even though, during the Civil War, Maryland found itself to be a southern state, most Marylanders don't see it that way anymore. However, the southern part of Maryland, especially on the border of Virginia, tend to consider themselves southern.

My father is from Tennessee, while my mother is from South Carolina, definite southern states. Having family there, I have concluded that Maryland is nothing like the south, and tends to be much more liberal and -- How do I put it nicely? -- mean. Marylanders tend to be very self-centered and boring, unlike southerners who I have found tend to be more giving and kind nowadays.

If it was up to me, I would put Maryland in the Northeast, but putting it as a "border state" is also, in my opinion, correct. Maryland seems to be split into Southern Maryland and Northern Maryland, two completely different areas.

Remember, whether it is 'south' or 'north' has NOTHING to do with the Civil War. It has to do with geography and personal identification. Most Marylanders identify as North. ~ Porphyric Hemophiliac § 15:16, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Baltimore writer and historian Eleanor Weller, writing a southbound travelogue of American gardens, said it best when observing that "Baltimore was the last Northern City, but Maryland the first Southern State." Whether or not it had seccessionist tendencies, what she's talking about is northern industry and the attendant non-agrarian wealth. I suspect that a majority of current residents would consider themselves Northern or Mid-Atlantic. But historically, the state would have been classified as Southern.

Yes, you do see Maryland alot, but you also see virginia, even south to South Carolina. Does that make those states northern. No. Mid-atlantic doesn't mean northern. It's COuLTURLY in-between. But geographicly, it's South. Some times, i's even see Kentucky. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.215.166.216 (talk) 03:29, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Who ever said marylanders are rude is biased. I'm from maryland. Does that make me an egotistical bastard? no. we concider our selves south were im form(PG COUNTY)

I now currently live in Mississippi, and I used to live in Maryland. I was born in GA. I moved to Maryland when I was 4. Then I left when I was 17. Let me tell you, I've been all over the state. Baltimore is northern, yes but if you go out to more rural towns like Frederick or Salisbury it is southern. More than half my nieghbors were southern. I from were I lived, Religion was very active in the community. I went to Ohio State and I was told by everyone that I have a southern accent. People said I was very nice and always welcoming. That is southern hospitality folks, and I was too young to learn it in Georgia. Yes i got it in Maryland. Now unfortunately Maryland is highly liberal, that is a down side. To finish it up, Maryland is southern. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Southmdboy (talk • contribs) 20:54, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Verifiability

I have watched this discussion for a few days now. I agree with Kmusser that Maryland is "Mid-atlantic" - that's neither exclusively "northern" or "southern". "mid" connotes some of both. In context of Wikipedia, we need to comply with WP:V and WP:CITE.

• The portion of the culture section that discusses "Maryland's weather and geography" is uncited. "Moderately Southern climate" - moderately is a subjective term.
• I also see that some consider the fact that "Maryland is a blue state, politically, that makes it a northern state". Please keep in mind that the state is not homogenous. In 2004, the DC and close-in Baltimore areas (Prince George's, Montgomery, Charles, Howard, and Baltimore (city and county)) voted in majority for Kerry [1], but in all the other counties, the majority voted for Bush. This is in part due to the "rural vs. urban" debate, as well as "northern vs. southern". Given that Maryland is not homogenous, I don't think that blanket statements about Maryland's politics are appropriate.
• And the last portion "People who consider Maryland to be a Southern state ..." is completely uncited. "traditional Southern culture and occupations are commonly observed..."? Do you actually have figures on employment in particular sections of the state? I was just poking around the Maryland labor statistics website [2] and don't find anything that really substantiates "southern occupations".
• And the reason stated for Baltimore as a southern city (commonly booked city for World Championship Wrestling and hosted multiple pay-per-views for the Georgia based promotion.) is inadequate.

Finally, I'll point to a paper by Wilbur Zelinsky, a cultural geographer, [3]. There's a map on page 14 that shows regions. He has Maryland as partially "Middle Atlantic" and partially "No regional affiliation". So, if anything, the article should describe Maryland as "a mid-atlantic state, with some northern and southern cultural influences." But, I would also support deleting the section entirely; as it's written now, it's poorly cited with weak arguments. -Aude (talk | contribs) 00:53, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I think a single sentence, such as the one you suggest, would do just fine in terms of the needs of the article. NoIdeaNick 06:48, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

The very first paragraph says just that, which is the point we have been trying to prove all along. WillC 10:52, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

I support the deletion of the Cultural Identity section entirely. The article could use a section on Maryland culture, but what's there now isn't even talking about culture. Kmusser 14:25, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Agree, scrap the current form, an write a section that has to do with the culture of Maryland and it's people rather then the current attempt to pigon holw it into either a northen or souther state, their is a lot that is beeing glossed over in the current format, that does no service for the state or a service in describing the cuture of it's residents. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 03:30, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

The section is gone now. As is, what the introduction says about Maryland's (northern/southern) identity suffices. -Aude (talk | contribs) 03:53, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeah i dont have a problem with that , as it is correct. For statistical purposes census lists the state in the South Atlantic divinon which is part of the souther region, will put source on the intro, while it is also considered Mid-Atlantic, i.e. it is in the Mid Atlantic Milk Marketing Assn. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 04:34, 11 May 2006 (UTC) \

Well nevermmind then some one replcaed what i had put their in the first place with a generic def, the source for the geo def for censn is here. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 04:37, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] It's South Alright...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:BaltimoreSnowstorm.jpg A Southern state if ever I saw one.

So by your logic, it is impossible to snow in the South. Would you be willing to wager on that? WillC 10:32, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeah. It's never EVER snowed in Atlanta, Nashville, Memphis, Charlotte, or Chattanooga. It's only my inagination that Nashville and Knoxville are, according to the USDA, and zone COLDER than Baltimore. The cabbage palm my mother has been growing in her backyard for 6 years can't really GROW in Baltimore, it's only her imagination! So THERE!! (tongue firmly in cheek)

User:Strongbad1982]

Well, it can snow in the south, but a southern city with Baltimore's elevation and proximity to the coast can NEVER get so many snowstorms with over 20 inches, and this was 28 inches! Only places like Salisbury are southern. Baltimore, metro DC, and the rest of Maryland are more northern. Faz90 21:11, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] True Moral Values

This is where most of the soldiers who have died in Iraq and Afghanistan have come from:

[[4]]

That's right, you cowards. They're all Blue, and all Northeastern.

That map is pretty much a population density map. Are LA, Houston, and Chicago also northeatern then?-Jeff ^(talk) 02:57, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Maryland is diffenitly southern.

[edit] My opinion

MY Opinion:

    I clearly belive that Maryland/Virginia are southern states!

Many People object to the idea of Virginia and Maryland being southern. Im from Maryland so I know. I hate it when people that don't know me come in my face with all that "yankee" crap...i aint no yankee...im myself! And I absolutly HATE when people say that VA an MD are rude, inconciterate, uneducated, boring, bad drivers. Im fun, nice, and filled with GREAT hospitality.

Next Subject: Civil war/M&D line.

    If everyone knows that MD and VA are BELOW the Mason Dixon Line... why do some people feel the need to say that MD and VA are Northern????

It's quite -how can i say- IDIOTIC! Yes, folks, I know that the MDL was not made to divide the north and the south, but It's pretty usefull to divide the two. Doncha think???...About the civil war...VA was apart of the confeds...i can't lie, BUT MD was FORSED to become apart of the union and most of the people wanted to be with the feds.(yuddah im sayin)...So anyways, like i was sayin, VA & MD are natrually South.

Subject 3: MD.

    Everyone knows that MD is not like the rest of the southern states-no accent(mostly), not many confed. flags, has northern-like cities, bad traffic etc.- but it is still SOUTHERN.

I mean dang, like many other southern states, we take pride in are lil southerness, we sometimes act a lil country, and we still TALK diffrent from the north...esspecially Dc/B-more area. CUT US SOME SLACK!

Final Subject: Overall.

    Over all, Maryland and Virginia are southern!

They have many southern charms too. Infact, we have great hospitaliy too! Don't worry, be happy. Even if your mad, you HAVE TO admit that maryland and virginia are atleast a TAD BIT southern. YEs, YEs, YEs, we do have many qualities like the north(aka bad traffic...lol), But you must admit(if youve been too maryland and virginia...NOT B-MORE or DC)that it is southern in some areas!

ps. dont post nasty negitive comments about Virginia or Maryland..okedoke allipokey...lolz

ps no 2. IF you ask a man at a gas station in Southern, MD.... you'll know that chu in the south. - Footballchik —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.104.98.52 (talk) 02:15, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, maybe you're just a Marylander who considers him/herself southern. Do bear in mind that there are Marylanders who may consider themselves Northerners. Because there are many differences between Maryland and the average Southern state. While it's true Maryland was forced to stay in the Union, you also have to take into account that out of the Southern states, Maryland, along with Delaware, was one of the most un-Southern. Many abolitionists resided in Maryland, but so did many pro-slavery advocates. Also, Maryland is very Democratic, where virtually the entire rest of the South *cough*Texas, Alabama*cough* have gone solidly Republican. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.5.170.110 (talk) 19:29, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] South and North

Living "south of the line" for all my life, i take pride in my dixie self. I AM SOUTHERN LADY FROM MARYLAND, like it or not, i AM southern. I talk with an accent and im used to braidin' my daughters hair on the porch! I love cookin' fried chicken, maccaroni, and creole favorites! I love showing great hospitality and a great accent. and i Am from the MD. Just because Maryland is very advanced in areas such as baltimore and DC, doesn't make us northern. Im about as southern as a broke back lady from mississippi! haahaha. i also have GREAT humor! My point is, we're south of the line. GET USED TO IT. ---Southern Sexy Lady--- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.215.166.216 (talk) 05:51, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Maryland is just about as southern as Georgia. Like them, we have same style buildings, great black colleges, good hospitality, humid summer weather, great bar-b-q's, and an AWSOME ACCENT(well atleast where im from)Yall folk always sayin we northern, like its our hobbie. I ISNT northern. Im a southern person and i have always been one. And plus, Baltimo' is just like Atlanta, just like a nother city--right? But does that make Maryland and Georgia "yankee" states...umm no. Trust me, we are south. Come down he'r and us marylanders will SHOW it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.215.166.216 (talk) 06:00, 28 January 2007 (UTC).

i go with Southern Sexy Lady. I've been livin in maryland all my life and i am convinced that it is southern with a northern charm(like John F Kennedy once said) My South Carolinan boyfriend thinks so too. I classify myself as Southern, with a nothern charm. If you go a little west, east, or south(not north) of DC, you can tell you are in the south alright. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.215.166.216 (talk) 03:24, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

She is soo right. I've visited my cussins in Ocean City, Md and it's defenatly southern. I'm from Mobile. I know what's the diffrence between the north and south.if you go past maryland(if you go north of maryland) you aren't likely to see a waffle house.

I agree that Maryland is the South because the 100% of the state is southeast of Lebanon, Kansas, and its more like the Carolinas than it is like Maine.

Maryland is definitely a SOUTHERN state. Not Mid-Atlantic, not tidewater, not Northern. She is Southern. She is below the Mason-Dixon line. Some will say that is just a border between three states but it has been known for some time as the boundary of the North and the South.

Also, listen to or look at the lyrics of the state song, "Maryland, My Maryland." Notably the line "She spurns the Northern scum". Doesn't sound like a Northern state to me. The song also refers to Lincoln as the tyrant and the despot.

Maryland, at least where I live has a strong resemblance to the Deep South. I live in the far reaches of Western Maryland in Allegany County. I recall from a trip that "home" looks a heck of a lot like Georgia. We also speak with a Southern accent here. We serve sweet tea here, we drink coke, and you won't find a Waffle House north of Dixie.

I would take a bet that there's a majority of the "Northern/Mid-Atlantic supporters" who have never lived in Maryland let alone traveled through it. Those who have traveled through it pass through the DC/Baltimore area and never see the surrounding area.--USMarineCorps1989 18:23, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ideas for Debate

I think it is time to start to narrow down this debate to the specific issue and start presenting scholarly, peer reviewed work to back up our claims. I think the specific issue is whether the main article should say
1. Maryland (IPA: [ˈmæ.ɹɪ.lənd]) is a Mid-Atlantic state located on the East Coast of the United States
2.Maryland (IPA: [ˈmæ.ɹɪ.lənd]) is a Southern state located on the East Coast of the United States.
3.Maryland (IPA: [ˈmæ.ɹɪ.lənd]) is a Mid-Atlantic / Southern state located on the East Coast of the United States.
I will refer to these proposals as #1, #2, and #3. What everyone should do is to find published evidence to support their opinion and post that evidence for discussion on this page. I think we have gone as far as we can go with ancedotal and personal opinions about what should be listed in the article.Lasersnake 17:31, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Options 4 & 5 (I favor 4) should certainly be included in order to best characterize the state.....
4. Maryland is a Mid-Atlantic state located on the East Coast of the United States that is at times classified as a Southern state
5. Maryland is a Southern state located on the East Coast of the United States that is at times classified as a Mid-Atlantic state. / The encyclopedic goal should be to classify all 50 states within a single region (no "slashes") representing the most common view, while presenting significant minority opinions. That's option 4. See Reed study below. DLinth 19:36, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Southern Focus Study on Maryland

Here is an article summarizing a 1999 study done by Dr. Shelton Reed about Southern self-identity.
http://www.unc.edu/news/archives/jun99/reed16.htm
The studys indicates that 40% of Marylanders say they live in the "South." Interesting Dr. Reed interprets this as meaning that Maryland is no longer a Southern State (if it ever was, he says.) Personally I see that 40% as evidence that proposal #3 listed above should be accepted. As we have said many times before, MD is a diverse state with some regions and people that lean south and others that lean north.
Lasersnake 12:51, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I see it differently, that option 4 above is the most accurate classification and provides the most information and the most accurate classification to the reader.

Reed's "study" was no single study, but the most encompassing review that I've seen, including "Fourteen polls, surveying a total of more than 17,000 people between 1992 and 1999." It provided "strong support for including....Texas, Kentucky and Oklahoma in the South. On the other hand, West Virginia, Maryland, Missouri, Delaware and the District of Columbia don’t belong anymore, if they ever did.

"Only 7 percent of D.C. residents responding say that they live in the South. Only 14 percent of Delaware residents think they live in the region, followed by Missourians with 23 percent, Marylanders with 40 percent and West Virginians with 45 percent. We found 84 percent of Texans, 82 percent of Virginians, 79 percent of Kentuckians and 69 percent of Oklahomans say they live in the South," says Dr. John Shelton Reed, director of the institute. "Our findings correspond to the traditional 13-state South as defined by the Gallup organization and others, but is different from the Census Bureau’s South, which doesn’t make sense."

Notice the somewhat fortuitous "break point" between the non-Southern state with the most minority support (45%) for southern status and the Southern state with the lowest majority support (69%) for southern status. (I know, FL is something of a category unto itself, with magnitudes higher percentages of immigrants from outside the South.) That 24% break point works for me. It would point to the traditional 13 state South, with Maryland primarily classified as done by most geographers (I'm one) as a Mid-Atlantic State (Option 4 above.) DLinth 19:36, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

The idea of being able to place each state in one region and one region only is quite noble, but probably not the most accurate way to describe reality. Physical geography largely does work that way. Either you live on the coastal plain, or you don't. You are either on Lake Michigan or your aren't. Cultural geographic boundaries are not so clear cut. Culture is a sum of the parts of many areas, language, history, demographics, settlement patters, cuisine, and mostly self-identity. These various artifacts normally don't have sharp boundaries, instead they tranistion from one norm to another. Also, these various cultural boundaries don't share the same tranistion areas either. For instance you can get good Southern fried chicken in an area that has a Midland dialect, etc. My understanding of the Maryland Mid-Atlantic/Southern debate is that it is about cultural, not physical regions. Maryland is a transition area between Northern culture and Southern culture, and the Dr. Reed's Southern Focus study data seems to indicate this. 40% of Marylanders saying they live in the South is a sizeable minority. Is it enough to say Maryland is Southern? I don't think so, but it is enough to justify at least partial inclusion in both areas. What I would really like to find is a similar study that discusses Mid-Atlantic self-identity. Do you know of any?
Lasersnake 12:47, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Who in their right mind argues that Maryland isn't a Mid-Atlantic state? Whether you believe it's northern or southern isn't even relevant to its more modern regional categorization. It's as silly as saying Connecticut is a northern state not a part of New England. They're NOT mutually exclusive categories. If Maryland is not a Mid-Atlantic state, than during my entire upbringing in Maryland every teacher I've ever had was wrong and all the hundreds or thousands of businesses I've encountered with "Mid Atlantic" in their names were deluded into believing they lived in the wrong region. It may not be intentional vandalism to write something wrong just because you believe it to be so in here, but it's certainly reckless negligence to write something THAT wrong when a simple Goggle search will reveal the plain truth. PSF 207.59.160.2 16:00, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Verifiable references

Is anything without references "useless banter" now? I thought this was a "talk" page? You would think contributions from lifelong residents of Maryland regarding the regional status of Maryland would be welcomed. You think a long list of links to contradicting references might make for a more interesting web page? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.59.160.2 (talk • contribs) 19:38, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

We do not know that you are a lifelong resident. You may wish to review WP:OR for further elaboration on that topic. Secondly, this north/south/mid-atlantic/etc. debate has been an ongoing problem with this article and frankly I'm sick of it. Everyone lends their two cents, but no one provides any sort of support for their claims so the article doesn't seem to be getting any richer. Yes, talk pages do not generally need references: they're for discussion and are the sort of forum where you can sometimes get some sway by saying you are a Maryland resident; but everybody is saying they are a Maryland resident and yet there is still a deadlock on this issue. Please consider reviewing WP:EL and WP:ATT for further information on verifiable resources. Also, please remember to sign your posts and use the subpage for further discussion on the topic of Maryland's regional identity. Thank you. --Bossi (talk ;; contribs) 20:53, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, we're deadlocked on the issue, but I don't think stifling legitimate contributions is the answer nor is insisting on only referenced material. If it were that easy-- wouldn't the matter have been resolved by now? If the answer were contained in some historical document, I think by NOW someone would have found it. Discovering a population's identity pretty much demands commentary from its people. I think that's much more where the answer lies. What better way to discover who people are but to ask them?

As for not believing me about lifelong residency-- well I guess that's just the chance we all take here. Once again I ask-- are you insinuating any discussion without reference is worthless? Why on Earth would I bother arguing so adamantly about it if I weren't from Maryland? My vested interest is that I don't believe I'm a southerner and don't wish to be thought of as one. Although, unlike a lot of the highly polarized folks in here, I'll proudly wear the title "Mid Atlantican".

PSF207.59.160.2 21:19, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I understand your viewpoint in that a people's identity is determined by the people, but Wikipedia is not setup to accept such testimony as the primary source. Wikipedia is formed by collecting information from the work of others; not by doing the work ourselves. It's something I have some issues with, myself: on articles I edit where I work with the topic on a professional and academic level, I still oftentimes get reverted or tagged to find verifiable resources since I tend to have a skewed concept of what is "common knowledge". We have argued the north-south issue incessantly and gone nowhere from it: we need information we can actually use. If you can locate a research study which surveys Marylanders regarding their interpretations of their identity, that would be a good start for getting this discussion oriented in the right direction. --Bossi (talk ;; contribs) 23:25, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I understand the purpose of Wikipedia and the nature of its content, and I strongly support it . I just thought that the "talk" sections were for less formalized discussion. PSF207.59.160.2 12:12, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Here, Here. We all have our opinions, but in order to move the discussion forward we need to back up our positions with academic peer-reviewed research. I tried to start a thread about the Southern Focus Study, but discussion was rather limited. What it comes down to is that everybody wants to add their two cents and everybody thinks their opinion matters. That's great but unless you back it up with evidence it contributes little to Wikipedia.Lasersnake 12:37, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry if I'm being dense here, but frankly I'm still not clear on this. It seems to me like you all somewhat agree with me on one hand that "talk" pages are for less formalized discussion, then in the next breath tell me references are still required. Yes or no-- writing that I was born and raised in Maryland and have never heard anyone there call themselves "southern" is inappropriate because I can't document it? PSF207.59.160.2 13:21, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

No, I wouldn't say it is "inappropriate." It is just that the debate on this issue has moved past the point where one person's ancedotal observations or opinions are going to contribute anything new. You are right, the talk page is more informal than the article itself, but some rules of order still need to be maintained in order to make sure that the debate is moving towards some kind of resolution. If you look over this page you will see dozens of posts by people with well-meaning personal opinions about MD's regional status. Some agree with what you are saying, some don't. How are we to make sense of this? How can we judge and evaluate and weigh the evidence that is presented in these cases? Can I get inside of your head, live your experiences, feel your emotions to judge whether you are right or wrong? Of course I can't. On the other hand, if an academic peer reviewed article or study is presented, I can read that article, I can double check that person's references, I can examine the same evidence, I can agree or disagree with them based on the merits of their arguement...not their personal believes. So long story short, nothing you said is inappropriate, but understand that unless you want to present some actual verifiable evidence to back up your opinion, there is very little to discuss, even on the discussion page.Lasersnake 14:44, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Incidentally-- why did it end up that the Maryland page reads "Maryland is a Mid-Atlantic / Southern state" if the matter was never truly resolved? Wouldn't simply saying "Maryland is a Mid-Atlantic" be far less provocative? I would be asking the same question if it read "Maryland is a Mid-Atlantic / Northern state" even though I'm convinced in a vote north would come out way ahead. PSF207.59.160.2 15:00, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

The Mid-Atlantic/Southern label is a compromise. There are folks on both sides of the issue with very strong opinions and it turned into a intermittant revert battle. The current label seems to be supported well by evidence. There has been evidence presented that both the Mid-Atlantic and Southern labels are justified (see this page as well as the discussion page archives on the Southern USA page for more info.) I don't think one label can be found that would accurately describe the whole state. MD, as I am sure you know, is a right on the border between North and South, it has urban, suburban, and rural areas, some very diverse and some very uniform communities, mountains and the shore, etc, etc. Trying to squeeze the state into one cultural area, be it Mid-Atlantic, North, or South doesn't do justice to the diversity of the state and would continue to make the page a target for disgruntled MDers that feel their personal cultural allegience is being ignored. I am open to suggestions. If you have new ideas, go ahead and find some evidence for them and put them forward.Lasersnake 15:51, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, as I suggested, I think "Mid Atlantic" IS the best compromise. Saying north or south along with it is going to continue to make the page a target for disgruntled MDers that feel their personal cultural allegiance is being ignored. It's what brought this whole issue to my attention in the first place. Mid Atlantic in and of itself doesn't seem to be very provocative and seems to be quite well documented. Most any on line search for the term includes Maryland in the description. If it had always read simply "Mid Atlantic" I don't think it ever would have drawn any attention to itself. What's wrong with that? PSF207.59.160.2 16:10, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

"Mid-Atlantic" is in itself a region. It may not have quite the emotional impact of "North" or "South," but the term carries its own meaning. You are right to say that Maryland is part of the Mid-Atlantic region, but this in and of itself does not exclude the state from being sometimes/occasionally considered "Southern" as well. I think everyone agrees that Maryland's place among the Southern states is not as clear cut as say VA is, but there enough evidence, such as the historical instution of slavery, settlement patterns, demographics, dialect, cuisine, and most importantly self-identity (40% of Marylanders say they live in the South, see Southern Focus study in previous thread) to justify some inclusion. Maybe in 20 or 30 years this will not the be case anymore, but for now I think the label still fits.Lasersnake 14:36, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Picking "south" is a value judgment-- no matter how you slice it. I read your arguments and they carry no more weight than these plain facts:

• Geographic evidence- Take a U.S. map and measure the distance between the northern tip of Maine and the southern tip of Florida. Notice that the halfway point falls just about on the border between VA and NC-- a whole state below Maryland. If you're a stickler for accuracy-- rotate the map so that the nearby longitude lines are close to parallel with your ruler, and include the Florida Keys if you want-- it makes little difference.

• Civil War status - No one denies Maryland was officially a UNION state, albeit one that allowed slavery.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_%28American_Civil_War%29

• South of the Mason Dixon Line - Contrary to popular belief, this argument is irrelevant. As I wrote earlier, the Mason-Dixon Line was created between 1763 and 1767 to settle land disputes between MD and PA. It had nothing to do with north vs. south. At best, it was used "symbolically as a supposed cultural boundary between the Northern United States and the Southern United States" in popular speech-- hence the confusion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mason-Dixon_line

• You actually use the argument that "40% of Marylanders say they live in the South from the Southern Focus study". Doesn't that very point indicate that 60% of Marylanders say they DON'T live in the south???? Are the majority of Marylanders wrong about their own identity? That alone nearly makes the case.

• Demographics, dialect, cuisine- Have you even been to Maryland? It is very much a border state. It certainly draws from north and south but there is no particular predilection for southern dialect or cuisine. Both catogies are uniquely Mid Atlantic. Demographic arguments really don't work for Maryland which is every bit as north as it is south in these respects. Southern influence is the minority, but even if one insists it's 50/50, how does that justify the choosing a southern or northern title?

• Several native Marylanders (including myself) in this debate stated that they were brought up being taught that they were northern and had never even heard it debated. This reflects the experience of every Marylander I currently know. Conversely, I read NO arguments from native Marylanders here making the same adamant claim about be southern, albeit some insisted that they strongly believe themselves to be southern now. This fact is completely dismissed for not including references to support it.

Clearly-- it's not my call. I suppose I'll just have to settle for the decision that is made, but I must say, as a longtime fan, this is my first major disappointment with Wikipedia. For whatever reason, some bias seems to be at work here. Considering the degree of heated controversy and the fact that there is no clear cut answer, it's amazing to me that it can't simply be labeled a "Mid Atlantic state whose north/south status is a matter of controversy" and then include a section describing the disagreement. This would be unequivocally true and non confrontational from anyone's perspective. Call it a "border" state if you must get into the whole north/south thing. No one can deny that. I never said the Mid Atlantic title excludes MD from being north or south. I simply meant that its Mid Atlantic place is clear, while its north/south position is debatable-- so why insist on choosing one? PSF207.59.160.2 16:58, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

You make a good point. picking "south" or "mid-atlantic" or any other cultural label is a pure value judgement. It is a value judgement each individual makes about their own personal regional allegience and the perceived allegience of their state. You make very valid points for MD being considered "Mid-Atlantic." Many MDers agree with you and as such that designation is clearly stated in the article. What the argument is really about, is that you want to exclude the Southern label. I agree with you again when you say that MD is a border state, a state with influences from both the North and South. We could go back and forth arguing about MD in the Civil War, or how southern the dialect of parts of MD are, and about sweet tea and fried chicken, and so one, but would it get us anywhere? Sorry, I don't really have the stomach to fight these same battles over and over again. Please go to the Southern USA discussion archive for a very very through examination of all of these issues. On a bit of a tangent. I am a native MDer, as where my parents, and their parents, and their parents, and so on. My family has lived in the same community in Western Maryland since the 1780s. I have also lived in the agricultural middle of the state, and in the suburbs of both Baltimore and D.C. I know the state very well but have tried very hard to not let my personal knowledge of the state be my crutch in these arguements. The one thing I am completely convinced of is that anybody that claims the entire state can be summed up in one regional label is wrong. Our wonderful diverse state has aspects of the Mid-Atlantic, the North East Urban Corridor, the coastal plantation South, and Appalachia. In conclusion, your suggestion about labeling the state as "Mid Atlantic state whose north/south status is a matter of controversy" sounds acceptable to me. I don't think that will be enough to stop it from being revereted though. That is the way Wikipedia works. The same people you are disappointed with for not agreeing with you are the same people that added all of the other content to the page and the same people that monitor it every hour to fix vandalism. What you are calling "bias" is actually a temporary compromise based on months of discussion. I am sorry you don't agree with it.Lasersnake 18:24, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Neither "Mid Atlantic south" or "Mid Atlantic North" is a compromise, since we've already concluded "Mid Atlantic" does not affect the north/south status. Mid Atlantic is a separate categorization from north/south. You may as well have written "East Coast / South" or "blue state / southern". A compromise is "Mid Atlantic / border state".

It sounds like we basically agree-- it's a border state and there is no consensus on its north/south status. Any ruling one way or the other is a judgment call. Labeling it a border state may not ever eliminate vandalism but wouldn't be LESS controversial and perhaps more accurate? I certainly hope it is not Wikipedia's policy to bend the truth or give in to militant minorities for fear of vandalism.

PSF207.59.160.2 19:22, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Not a Southern State

As a Southerner, I find it pretty ridiculous that Maryland is included in our region. They really have nothing in common with us, not only from a cultural but also from a geographical standpoint. It really is an insult to our heritage that a state whose history, values, politics, and contemporary popular perusasions are so markedly dissimilar to our own is somehow defined as part of Dixie.

That being said, I'm sure the Marylanders (who clearly view themselves as Northern) aren't too thrilled to be told, that, cotrary to what they've surely believed their entire lives, they're actually residents of the South.

The South ends, effectively, at the Potomac River. It really is very upsetting to me that Wikipedia doesn't reflect that reality. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.171.0.148 (talk) 05:58, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Agreed.72.81.251.2 (talk) 22:41, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Maybe because it's 2008 and we don't use outdated Civil War politics. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.244.19.51 (talk) 23:40, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Introduction

I think it's a bit rich that we're defining Maryland as "Southern" on this page. That to me seems to be a fairly radical reworking of the demographics, economics, politics, and geography of the region, particularly for an encyclopedia that says it is not a database for "original research."

I for one actually am a Southerner and find this classification to be not only inaccurate but borderline insulting; Maryland shares very little in common with the rest of the South, and I speak from the perspective not of a Texan, Floridian, or South Carolinian, but rather as a Virginian.

This really, really bothers me. From a cultural perspective (rates of church attendance, religious identification, household income, voting tendencies, music, cuisine, etc) it just doesn't make sense. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.217.137.29 (talk) 04:34, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Agreed.72.81.251.2 (talk) 22:41, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Maryland is a Southern State

Well.....I am a native Marylander from Allegany County and I find it insulting that we are being classified as "Mid-Atlantic". Especially when the US Census Bureau themselves classify Maryland as a Southern State. We share much more in common with Virginia, North Carolina, and Tennessee than we do with New Jersey, Pennsylvania, and New York. At least where I come from we do. I was raised Southern and have always believed I am Southern. Maryland has been a Southern colony/state since it joined the Union and always will be part of the Southland no matter what.

The biggest reason that ya'll from further south can say that we don't have anything in common with you is because of all the DAMN YANKEES that come down here and destroy our way of life. They come across the Mason-Dixon Line and think they own the place. We are occupying Iraq and Afghanistan right now.....does that make them part of America? No. It's the same deal with the yankees and Maryland. They have occupied this state but because people from New York bring their way of life to Maryland it doesn't make this state New York.

Go ahead and keep saying we ain't Southern. I know and the rest of us Southerners know what harm yankees do when they invade your homeland. I find it pretty weak and cowardly that you abandon a sister Southern state because she's been invaded. Instead of supporting us you just act like we're a bunch of yankees too. It's a matter of time before the yankees come to your town in Virginia and change it and people don't regard you as being Southern anymore. Then will come the Carolinas, Tennessee, Alabama, Georgia, and the rest of the South will be changed. There's only one way we're gonna fight yankees changing our homeland into a mega-mall and that's if we stick together as Southerners. Quit backing down and cowardly abandoning your fellow Southrons and stand up against change.USMarineCorps1989 (talk) 07:15, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Questionable footnote and a modest proposal

Footnote four reads as follows:

While the U.S. Census Bureau designates Maryland as one of the South Atlantic States, many consider it to be a part of the Mid-Atlantic States and/or Northeastern United States. Examples include other U.S. government agencies (such as the Library of Congress, Geological Survey, Environmental Protection Agency, National Park Service, and Department of Energy), and public service organizations (such as Amtrak and the Princeton Review). Google's categorization scheme includes it in both the Mid-Atlantic and Northeastern regions.

That's not really accurate. If you go to each page, you will find:

• Two websites which list it as part of the Mid-Atlantic (Library of Congress, Google).
• Five websites which list it as part of the Northeast, but which do not make any refernce to the Mid-Atlantic (Environmental Protection Agency, National Park Service, Department of Energy, Amtrack, and Princeton Review)
• One bad link (Geogical Survey)

I'm not really sure that Google, Amtrack, and the Princeton Review should be given the same weight as the other Government sources. Nevertheless, assuming they are all equally valid, there's no mention of the traditional definition, as articulated in textbooks and dictionaries.

After reading over this page, and the discussion found elsewhere, it seems that there is no consensus and little chance for agreement. So I'd like to propose the following compromise, which while lacking in certainty, is not lacking in accuracy. "Maryland is part of the East Coast of the United States and is often considered part of the Mid-Atlantic, Northern United States, and Southern United States, depending on the source." There could be an accompanying footnote which could list the differning sources. This would not settle the debate but would at least frame it accurately.

I'm pretty sure that there will be no agreement on this subject. However, with its inaccurate citations, the article can't be left as is. So give me your thoughts and in a few days the neccessary changes can be made.

Your thoughts? "Country" Bushrod Washington (talk) 00:33, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

How many valid sources consider Maryland a Southern state? The only one on my mind is the Census Bureau. Also, in an introduction to an article about a US state, I don't think the dated traditional definition of the region that it's placed in is very relevant. I think as long as we assure that the Mid-Atlantic is not necessarily the north, most reasonable people will agree that Maryland is in the Mid-Atlantic. Delaware's article has a similar footnote too. And which sources articulate the traditional definition, besides history textbooks? This issue has been pretty stable for several weeks, there is no reason to bring it up again.

Calling a citation inaccurate is an opinion. I don't think that gov't sources and other companies should be dubbed "inaccurate". As with wikipedia's policy, the region of Maryland needs to be cited, and it is. Faz90 (talk)

I would also like to add that most of this arguing happened before the long footnote of citations was added. Since then, there hasn't been any significant controversy. Faz90 (talk)

I guess that I missed the “and/or Northeastern United States” portion of the footnote. That’s my mistake; the footnote is fine, though the Geological Survey link is bad and should be replaced.

I still maintain that the traditional definition is relevant, if only to provide historical perspective. Once I find a few verifiable sources, I’ll try to find a way to incorporate them into the article . . . though not in the introductory paragraph. "Country" Bushrod Washington (talk) 04:31, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Ok then its all good Faz90 (talk)

I have no idea where the Census Bureau gets off calling us "South Atlantic". As indicated above, there are FAR more references to Maryland as a Mid Atlantic state, and rightfully so. Any way you quantify it, geographically, demographically, culturally, Maryland is very much Mid Atlantic. Would any of the "Southern sympathizers" in here like to tell several THOUSAND Maryland companies with "Mid Atlantic" in their names they don't know what they're talking about? PSF --71.173.199.188 (talk) 03:22, 11 June 2008 (UTC)