Talk:Mary of Hungary
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Removed this bit: "Sigismund and Mary had a daughter named Elisabeth. Elisabeth , wife of Casimir IV named the "mother of the Jagiellos", descended from their daughter Elisabeth."
I believe the first mentioned Elisabeth was daughter of Sigismund and his second wife Barbara of Cilli, not a daughter of Sigismund and his first wife Mary. -- Someone else 21:51 Apr 2, 2003 (UTC)
- You were right to remove that, Elisabeth was from the second marriage, moreover, I don't think anyone was descended from her since her only child died childless.
one more thing: isn't Slovak language called "Slovakian" in English? Alensha 00:08, 19 Jun 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Requested move
- The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the proposal was move. There is a rough consensus to move, and had the unilateral move that is being reversed here been discussed in the first place, it would have had no chance. Andrewa (talk) 16:26, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
Maria II of Hungary → Mary of Hungary — There is no Mary II of Hungary. This woman is the only Mary to have ever been Queen regnant of Hungary or to have claimed to be such. —Michael Sanders 23:59, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Survey
- Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with
*'''Support'''or*'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.
- Comment - This is a clear case of an inappropriate move. Unless the user who carried out the move without consultation can provide a citation for his statements, the move will be reverted in due course. Deb (talk) 20:34, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
- Oppose. This Maria II's great-great-grandmother, Maria of Hungary, Queen Consort of Naples, claimed the Hungarian throne, was crowned as its rightful queen regnant by representative of pope, and was later held by her descendants (such as this Maria here) as having been legitimate queen of Hungary, Maria I. see for example these notes. Marrtel (talk) 10:16, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
- The source you give does not name her "Maria I" - it is an unreliable source that at best could source her as a pretender. It does not evidence her as "Maria I". Michael Sanders 11:47, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
- Support. No evidence that the previous Maria is widely regarded as having reigned, or that this Maria is accepted as being the second. The Hungarian Wikipedia article calls her Mária magyar királynő, no idea what it means but it doesn't sound like the second; Italian calls her Maria d'Ungheria, ie Maria of Hungary. Other Balkan Wikipedias all seem similar. This doesn't automatically mean she isn't called Maria II in English but it makes it seem rather doubtful. Andrewa (talk) 05:17, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
- Support because the recent move to Maria II of Hungary was undiscussed. A consensus should be required for Maria II of Hungary, not Mary of Hungary. — AjaxSmack 00:54, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Discussion
- Any additional comments:
This is the only Queen regnant of Hungary named Mary. The supposed 'Mary/Maria I' of Hungary is Maria of Hungary (1257-1323), also known as 'Maria Arpad', who was never Queen of Hungary. This article details a person who is never, either by right or choice, called Mary/Maria II. It should be moved. (Incidentally, there is risk of confusion with another woman also well-known as "Mary of Hungary". However, that woman is also known as "Mary of Austria", and there is an acceptable disambiguation notice to that effect at the top of this page. This woman is never known as anything else.) Michael Sanders 00:29, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
- In my assessment, Michaelsanders presents either uninformed or deceitful allegation when he alleges that there never were any earlier queen Maria who claimed the Hungarian throne in her own right. It was specifically this Maria II's great-great-grandmother, Maria of Hungary, Queen Consort of Naples, who was the first Maria to claim to be Queen Regnant of Hungary, by laying her claim to the Hungarian throne, becoming crowned as its rightful queen regnant through papal sanction, was further recognized as rightful holder of the Hungarian kingship, and was later held by her descendants (such as this Maria II here) as having been legitimate queen of Hungary, Maria I. see for example these notes. (King Charles of Naples married at "Naples [May/Jun] 1270 Maria of Hungary, daughter of ISTVÁN V King of Hungary & Elisabeth of the Kumans. She claimed the throne of Hungary 21 Sep 1290, following the death of her brother King Laszlo IV. She was crowned Queen by a Papal legate in Naples 1291, but transferred her rights to her son Charles Martel. The Pope confirmed her sole rights in Hungary 30 Aug 1295".) It is not important that Maria I of Hungary highly probably never actually was able to rule Hungary, but remained a pretender, a claimant. Regnal numberings within a dynasty commonly count pretenders in the numbering, compare for example with cases of regnal numbers of Napoleon III and Louis XVIII, who both were real rulers. Accordingly, this was Maria II. We have, according to naming conventions, the possibility to utilize regnal numbers precisely for disambiguation purposes, which is needed here. Marrtel (talk) 10:27, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
- Additionally, Michaelsanders for some reason calls the so-called Maria I as "Maria Arpad". Any scholar of the field would know that Arpad was never a surname nor a byname of any person. Arpad was the legendary progenitor of said medieval dynasty, which much later, after the fact, has led historiography to call it as the Arpad dynasty. But that is no sign of its use as surname. All in all, contrary to what Michaelsanders alleges, there never existed someone called "Maria Arpad". Even that lack of knowledge of the relevant history demonstrates how misguided this naming proposal would be. Marrtel (talk) 10:45, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
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- You have presented an unreliable source stating that Maria the Arpad claimed the throne. You have presented no evidence that she was ever actually called "Maria I", or that 'King' Mary would or did acknowledge her ancestress's claim. Napoleon III and Louis XVIII exist as ordinals because they are used. This is a case of fiction-making by wiki-editors. Michael Sanders 12:05, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
