Talk:Mary Manin Morrissey

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Mary Manin Morrissey article.
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[edit] Cult Leader category

Is it accurate to have Mary Manin Morrissey listed in the category "Cult Leaders", alongside the likes of Jim Jones and Charles Manson? If not, she should be removed from that category (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Cult_leaders). If it is accurate, some justification of that inclusion should exist within the article itself. (209.33.234.20 22:02, 22 January 2006 (UTC))

  • There seems to be no cut and dry criteria for listing leaders within the "cult leaders" category. Certainly some Scientologists would object to the inclusion of L. Ron Hubbard in that category as well. The entire category itself could be seen as dubious, as the definition of cult seems to vary from person to person. But if you look at the makeup of Living Enrichment Center, a huge but isolated facility in the wilderness (which basically amounts to a commune), a mult-million-dollar ministry built on the personality of one person, a Harley collection in the tradition of Rajneesh's Rolls Royce collection, and finally (perhaps one of the hallmarks of a cult) a financial scandal that closes the whole thing, I think many would agree that LEC was a cult. Further, there is evidence of Mary Manin Morrissey interfering in and attempting to control the personal lives of some of her followers and congregation members. 172.195.22.221 08:16, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
  • The article does make reference to Mary Morrissey as something akin to a cult figure:
"Some followers even claimed that Morrissey's talks were divinely inspired and channelled directly from God. Others, however, feared that Morrissey was becoming a cult figure akin the Rajneesh (whose organization was headquartered in Oregon in the 1980s), noting how attendance dropped off when Morrissey herself was not the key speaker for a given service."
Further, the article contains a link to a blog called Intersection of Spirituality and Fleecing that contains the following commentary: "So maybe the whole thing is fair…then again, weird, cultish undertones pervade the whole deal." 207.200.116.68 12:20, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Also, there was constant talk in the local community that LEC was a cult. So, this is not an uncommon perception of LEC and Mary Morrissey. (172.197.234.109 14:20, 23 January 2006 (UTC))
  • The article "Spirituality and Fleecing" also contains this passage:
"But those details come back to suggest other possibilities: 1) that we're dealing with a true cult, one that was devoted to the enrichment and aggrandizement of Mary Morrissey until it collapsed (sub-clause on #1 includes the possibility that Ed's under her spell);" -- Andrew Parodi 11:12, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reason for Blpdispute tag

Please see [1]. VegaDark (talk) 02:59, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WP:BLP Violation warning

I have removed material that was sourced in violation to WP:V and WP:BLP. Emails, blogs, and Yahoo group discussions are not considered reliable sources for claims about living people. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:04, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

The artilce as it stands reads more as an investigative journalism article than an encyclopedic one. It needs substantial work to make it compliant with Wikipedia policies on WP:NPOV and WP:BLP. I have also tagged many of the images used for fair use review, as it seems that these images are no such. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:21, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Revert on commingling removal

I just reverted a edit where the summary said that the lawyer didn't use the word "commingling". When I went to the reference and looked, guess what I found?

"The fact is, unfortunately, that neither Mary nor anyone else at this point can answer questions about the disposition of funds loaned to Mary and [the] LEC," lawyer Steve Ungar wrote in an April 19 email to WW. "Why? Because the finances of [the] LEC, New Thought Broadcasting, Mary Morrissey and Ed Morrissey were treated not separately, but as a kind of 'financial family.' The technical accounting term for this is commingling."

--SarekOfVulcan 20:33, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Edward Morrissey was sent to prison for money laundering

Why is it being removed from the article that Edward Morrissey was sent to prison for money laundering? Here is his listing on Federal Bureau of Prisons website:

http://www.bop.gov/iloc2/InmateFinderServlet?Transaction=IDSearch&needingMoreList=false&IDType=IRN&IDNumber=68625-065&x=33&y=23

I just inserted the following sentences:

Mary Manin Morrissey's husband, Edward Morrissey, pled guilty to money laundering and using church money for the personal expenses of himself and his wife [2], and spent time in federal prison. [3][4]

If further citation is needed, please let me know.

Valerie Taylor 05:00, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

The text above does not match the source. Deleted again. Please read WP:SYN ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:44, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
I don't understand. How exactly does the text above not match the source? The link to the KOIN news article says he pled guilty to money laundering. And then the link to the government site gives his inmate number. And then there is a link to the complaint the state of Oregon filed against him and Mary Morrissey. I am reverting the sentence until a satisfactory explanation of how this is not adequate is given. Thank you. Valerie Taylor 05:13, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Addendum: I read the link you provided to SYN. That is not an acceptable excuse for removing the sentence about Edward Morrissey. That Edward Morrissey pled guilty to money laundering and served time in prison is not "a position" but a legal and historic fact. Please stop removing this sentence. Thank you. Valerie Taylor 05:17, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Will an article from today's The Oregonian suffice as a source?
"Morrissey's ex-husband, Edward Morrissey, who also worked at Living Enrichment Center, has shouldered blame for the church spinning out of control. He pleaded guilty to a single count of money laundering in April 2005 and served 18 months in federal prison before his release Feb. 2."
"He too must pay over a share of his income to repay borrowers. He has paid about $240 from his wages at Hot Seats Bar & Grill, a Tualatin sports bar, Whang said."

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregonian/stories/index.ssf?/base/news/1181267788141050.xml&coll=7

Valerie Taylor 05:43, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
That last source will work. The other sources do not. Primary sources should be avoided. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 06:09, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Thank you. But I thought that when the primary source was the United States government it was an ideal source. I supposed I missed something. Valerie Taylor 06:29, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Another possible source

Wilsonville Spokesman published a piece ("Morrissey to meet with LEC ‘refugees’") about a recent public meeting that Mary Morrissey had. The piece contains the following paragraphs:

"The Morrisseys struck a plea agreement with federal and state prosecutors that sent Ed Morrissey to federal prison for one count of money laundering, while allowing Mary to go free."
"Both also agreed to make monthly payments of 15 percent of their income — or $1,000 per month, minimum, in Mary’s case — into an escrow fund to repay the victims."
"They also agreed that if they declared bankruptcy, it would not relieve them of their responsibility to repay the debt."
"Mary subsequently declared Chapter 7 personal bankruptcy in 2005. She was discharged from bankruptcy in November. So far, the escrow account has collected $60,886, with Mary contributing most of that, state enforcement officer Simon Wahng said."
"She has met her monthly obligations to contribute 15 percent of her income. However, she paid only $20,000 of an up-front $50,000 fine. This failure triggered an additional $100,000 civil penalty. The state considers her in default on the fines, but is setting aside all her contributions for victims and not state coffers."
“'All the money goes to the restitution pool,'” Wahng said.
"Ed Morrissey didn’t contribute while he was in prison. He was released Feb. 2, and since then, he has worked a fast food job in Beaverton and made small, though regular payments into the escrow account."

The direct "hotlink" to this article is: http://www.wilsonvillenews.com/WVSNews9.shtml

However, sometimes direct hotlinks to Wilsonville Spokesman do not work. In that case, the article is still (as of this writing) on the front page of their site. You can go to their website (http://www.wilsonvillespokesman.com/) and scroll to the bottom of the page to see the article. It is written by Curt Kipp. Valerie Taylor 08:03, 9 June 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Removed references to the Project Everlasting business

For some time, this article had included reference to Project Everlasting, a business led by Mary Morrissey's son Mat Boggs and his partner Jason Miller. [5] [6] A previous version of this article pointed out that it is at the least a curious situation that Mary Morrissey is behind on her repayment of congregant loans because, to hear her tell it, she can't afford to pay more than she is; and yet, curiously, one of her current businesses is listed as a contributing supporter to the Project Everlasting venture. The obvious question becomes: If she can't afford to repay more to her former congregation, then why can she afford to contribute to her son's current business venture? (This could even raise speculation that Project Everlasting is perhaps another means of money laundering for the Boggs/Morrissey families, as the state of Oregon had predicted they will continue to commit these crimes.) This is an interesting point to think about, but at this point there doesn't seem to be enough correlation between the two topics to warrant mentioning them in the article. At least not in my opinion. Therefore, I have removed the references. Laughing Jesus 18:27, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Needs stubbing down

This article urgently needs to be stubbed right down and restarted, because it's an unbalanced mess, the kind of thing that happens when someone with a bee in his bonnet his allowed to have a relatively free run on an article for a long time.

If someone with a reasonable knowledge of the subject matter could trim this down to the bare facts, maybe three paragraphs or so with references, I think it would make an excellent start for a good article. --Tony Sidaway 07:44, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. I'll see what I can do. Valerie Taylor 08:47, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
I bit the bullet and took it right down to the lead. At least that is a manageable size. --Tony Sidaway 09:21, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, stubbing it is the best course of action, in this case its easier to build up then it is to clean up that mess. —— Eagle101Need help? 09:26, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Oh. Okay. Whatever. Just as long as it gets built back up in some capacity. Though it was rather messily organized, there was a lot of information there and it would be a shame if it were lost. Thanks. Valerie Taylor 09:33, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Not all that information is really needed to be honest. There were lots of quotes that really did not need quoting, a short description of the various events is all that is needed. —— Eagle101Need help? 09:36, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
I suppose this is why commas are important. At first, I though you had written that not all quotes need to be honest, that is, truthful. I'm trusting that what you really meant to say was, "Not all (of) that information is needed(,) to be honest." In other words, if I'm understanding you, it was excessive information. I agree. Valerie Taylor 09:57, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Oops, thanks for correcting me :) —— Eagle101Need help? 09:59, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The PhD reference

The section about the PhD has been added, removed, and added again. Here is a copy and paste. Shall we discuss whether it should remain or not?

There is variation in the portrayal of the status of Mary Manin Morrissey's Doctorate of Humane Letters. In at least two cases, Morrissey's doctorate is referenced in a context which could imply that she earned her doctorate as a result of literal matriculation at a university. In at least one case, Morrissey's doctorate is referred to as an honorary doctorate. On her official biography on her Friends of Mary website, Mary Manin Morrissey makes reference to her Doctorate of Humane Letters, but does not cite the university or reference the matriculation or honorary status of the degree. [7] The website for Ocean of Gratitude, a motivational cruise ship enterprise with which Morrissey became involved during the summer of 2006, contains a biography that also makes reference to Mary Manin Morrissey's Doctorate of Humane Letters, though the degree granting institution is not cited nor is the matriculation or honorary status of the degree referenced. [8] A profile of Mary Manin Morrissey on The Translucent Revolution website does not list the degree granting university, but does state, "Mary holds a master’s degree in psychology, was ordained in 1975, and received an honorary doctorate of Humane Letters in 1999." [9]

Valerie Taylor 08:44, 16 June 2007 (UTC)


My feeling is that could well be good investigative journalism, but it isn't how we handle conflicting sources on Wikipedia. If we don't have a reliable account of the PhD, we don't have anything to say. If there there is a controversy about the PhD and we have a reliable source on that (for instance, if a biographer has investigated it) then we mention the controversy. If there isn't any controversy, only a bunch of conflicting statements, then we have no reliable source so there's nothing to say, except maybe that we don't know where here degree is from (and since that could be for quite innocent reasons, we would be very careful about how we said that. --Tony Sidaway 09:25, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Oh. I get it. Thank you. If it had been explained this way to begin with then I wouldn't have questioned it. In other words, the only reason to mention such a thing would be whether there is a controversy about it; then we'd mention the controversy, and give a sitation to the controversy. Because there apparently is no controversy, there's no need to mention it. Valerie Taylor 09:38, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Willamette Week post-LEC update

I certainly agree that much of this article needs to be toned down to conform to a NPOV perspective, but it seems that a great deal of information is being deleted without any consensus. For example, the following portion. Why was this deleted? It is verifiable and sourced?


After the 2004 closure of Living Enrichment Center, Mary Morrissey founded several organizations. Initially, she founded "Friends of Mary" and "Success NW", which were both introduced in the lobby of LEC's final service at Valley Theatre on August 24, 2004. Friends of Mary held fundraising events to raise money for Mary Morrissey's legal defense. Both organizations have since become defunct. Mary Morrissey currently operates two organizations, "Evolving Life Ministries" and "Life Soulutions." [10]

[11] On January 17, 2007, in an entry of The It List, Willamette Week made reference to Mary Morrissey's "Miracle Mastery Conference". The entry on the conference is titled "It's Only a Scam if You Believe It Is":

"With all of today's buzzwords and inflated promises, where can self-help seekers turn? Enter Mary Manin Morrissey and the 2007 Miracle Mastery Conference (lifesoulutions.com). This is serious straight talk. No mumbo-jumbo, just paradigm shifting solutions and positive energy. Morrissey, who steered her megachurch Living Enrichment Center right into the miracle known as bankruptcy ("The Prophet Margin," WW, May 12, 2004), will explain, in simple down-to-earth terms, how to become "empowered" and "grow your hopes and dreams." If you want to be spoon-fed a quick fix, then this ain't for you—Morrissey invented the "Miracle Minute" one-minute meditations, so clearly she believes life change requires time and energy. At $299—plus an extra $99 for Friday, plus $75 for "preferred seating" and just $50 more to attend the "Wisdom Lunch"—the conference might seem expensive, but with your self-actualization on the line, can you afford not to attend? Doubletree Hotel Lloyd Center, 1000 NE Multnomah Blvd., 922-3460. 7-9 pm Friday, 9 am-5 pm Saturday, 9 am-1 pm Sunday, Jan. 19-21. $299. All ages." [12]

On June 9, 2007, The Oregonian published the article "Ex-church leader falls far behind schedule in repaying $10.7 million". Writes staff writer Jeff Manning, "Mary Manin Morrissey, the woman who built up the Wilsonville-based Living Enrichment Center into a powerhouse church with 4,100-members only to see it collapse in 2004 amid charges of fraud and betrayal, is restarting her life as a roving inspirational speaker. Morrissey is spending five or six days a week on the road traveling across the country to various engagements, generating a six-figure income. The charismatic 58-year-old has been less successful in repaying the $10.7 million she borrowed from her former flock." The article also claims that Morrissey's latest company, Life Soulutions, has raised concerns from the state of Oregon:

"But the organization of Morrissey's new company, LifeSoulutions, has prompted questions from the state. As currently organized, Morrissey's partner in the venture receives as much as 40 percent of the operation's revenue, which means it is not subject to the requirement that a portion of it be diverted to the restitution fund. State officials have asked Morrissey for documents detailing the corporate structure of LifeSoulutions. Morrissey told them that on the advice of an attorney, there are no such documents. Nothing was put in writing." [13]

Valerie Taylor 09:22, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

These were removed as they were simply not needed to explain the situation. Brevity is a virtue. —— Eagle101Need help? 09:42, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Thanks. I think the Oregonian article should be referenced at some point, however. Perhaps just find a better way to include it. The Oregonian is, after all, THE major newspaper in the state of this subject. Valerie Taylor 09:44, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Thats possible, but we don't need quotes left and right, one sentence will do. This is an encyclopaedia, if the reader really wants to see more they can click through to our source, or if it is on paper, they can go to the library and get it. —— Eagle101Need help? 09:50, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the response. I agree. I was just curious, because it seemed that this article was being cut up left and right without any consensus or discussion on this page. Thanks. Valerie Taylor 09:54, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Discussion is not limited to this page, plus there is a little thing about being bold, the point is to improve the encyclopaedia, having various conflicting claims without multiple reliable sources does not help us make an encyclopaedia, and as such its just simpler to chop down to the start and rebuild with what is really useful then the reverse. This is a wiki :) —— Eagle101Need help? 09:57, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Oh. Okay. Have at it. :) Valerie Taylor 10:00, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I'm going to be out for a bit, I'm sure this will improve a bit more. —— Eagle101Need help? 10:03, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Most important articles

I agree that this article needs to be rebuilt. In the spirit of helping to rebuild this article, I will offer what appear to me to be the most important articles about this topic:

  • The Prophet Margin (This appears to be the most prolific and extensive article on the subject.)
  • Uncertain future for migrant camp (I'm on the fence about this one. Though it is interesting to note that this woman's church was begun on a farm that had a migrant camp, it's not exactly directly related to the article per se. It may seem a little too much like investigative journalism to include this link. I'll let others be the judge of this.)

Hopefully we can find a way to rebuild this article with these references, and turn this into a cohesive article rather than the mess that it was. Thanks. Valerie Taylor 12:27, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Yahoogroup External Link Removal

I have removed the external link to the Yahoogroup as Wiki Policy directly addresses this issue. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:El See article 10 under "Links to be Avoided". Gordondavid (talk) 00:35, 27 May 2008 (UTC)