Talk:Mary Celeste

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I noticed something odd about the article. In one part it says there were blood stains along some rails and scratch marks but later it says no evidence of violence was found. Do we not count blood and scratch marks as hints/evidence of violence in this story?

Jaybrown27 10 October 2006

The blood stains are fictional. --Gibnews 09:44, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Hi!

I took the liberty of re-organizing the information into a more coherant article. In addition, I removed the heading which seemed to be rather messy in such a brief article. Ganymead 04:02, 4 May 2004 (UTC)

I think you forgot to remove the things you rewrote?

Thanks - I think that you removed some stuff that wasn't duplicated - if I'm wrong please let me know. Mark Richards 17:37, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] The Wreck of the Mary Deare

I find the plot of The Wreck of the Mary Deare (book and movie) by Hammond Innes very similar to the Mary Celeste story. Jay 14:05, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Occultists fools?

After reading this article, I fail to see where the great mystery lies as it seems pretty straight-forward. Is the article not neutral in it's POV or are the occultist simply fools? Kristian (sorry, no registration for me)

Kristian: Exactly what happened is still unknown, as there were no verified survivors to tell the tale, and occultist claim anything unknown is tied to the spiritual. It is worth noting (and the article does) that it happened nowhere near the so-called "Bermuda Triangle" (another myth).

dino 03:05, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

Re OCCULTISTS. Yes, Kristian, as Dino correctly points out, it is worth noting that it happened nowhere near the Bermuda Triangle. But while it is true that the article duly informs us about this fact, it is also true that it fails abysmally to tell us where else it did not happen. After all it

also happened nowhere near a lot of other places, among them very important and significant ones. Wouldn't these places deserve at least a mention in the article?

But I must say I am appalled to hear you compare occultists to simple fools. Fools? How can you only consider such a possibility? How can you only say such a thing? Where is your NPOV? I'm not surprised at all that you choose to remain anonymous. A wise choice indeed, if I may say so.--BZ(Bruno Zollinger) 09:14, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
While I will not defend anonymity, I will to a certain extent defend Kristian's post. He does not claim that occultists are fools, he just expresses the view that if the article is NPOV, he, as a reader, must conclude that occultists are fools. --- Anyway, the subject of this article is in itself unnotable; its notability comes from its impact on the imagination of Doyle (incidentally an occultist), and others.--Niels Ø 13:13, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Puritan

"However, Briggs, a New England Puritan, was known as a very religious, though just and fair, man." The use of the word "though" here is confusing and anti-religious to the reader.

  • I agree ... it confused me and I had to stop re-read that part, so it is being edited out now !!! DavidHumphreysSPEAK TO MEABOUTTHE THINGS I MESSED UP 06:15, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
It is meant to illustrate that Briggs was not a 'Jonathan Edwards-type' Puritan. If he were, he would have been like Capt. Bligh from the HMS Bounty. But he was NOT this type of fire and brimstone Puritan. He was very lovey-dovey.

[edit] Old sailors

Does anybody besides me feel that the following sentence is unencyclopedical? "Old sailors sometimes claimed that they had been aboard the Mary Celeste. Little credence is given to these stories." BJS 01 August 2006

[edit] Alcohol

The article states that the cargo was methanol. However, most sources claim, or imply, that it was ethanol. I would be most interested in knowing the source of the methanol claim as the nature of the cargo is of crucial importance in reconstructing what happened to the ship and her company. Thank you. Barend Vlaardingerbroek, Ph.D.

I'm going to remove the remark about methanol. The cargo was most likely ethanol, as methanol was much harder to produce back then. Even nowadays the "industrial alcohol" is just ethanol laced with some denaturant to stop people from drinking it. Methanol is usefull only when you use it as fuel and thus need the increased energy density. Fizzl 09:42, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
No, 'Industrial alcohol' is ethanol. It can be denatured by adding methanol and other substances, like pyridine in order to prevent people drinking it and to avoid paying excise duty. However if you want to use alcohol in a chemical process you don't want crap in it. As the purpose of the alcohol was to fortify wine in Italy its safe to assume it was 95% ethanol with water. --Gibnews 20:54, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Speculating on whether or not the crew tried drinking the alcohol and the possible results of such an attempt is all well and fine for school papers, but without sources that discuss this possibility specifically with regard to the Mary Celeste's crew, it constitutes original research and does not belong here per policy. Rklawton 12:45, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Abel Fosdyk papers

For what it's worth, the Strand Magazine was a magazine that published fiction. --ForDorothy 00:01, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ergot

The mention of ergotism says that the crew of the Dei Gratia didn't suffer from it - why would they? Erot poisoning is the result of ingesting food that has been contaminated by ergot mould - did they eat any food on board the deserted ship? Autarch (talk) 22:40, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, they most certainly did, and when the ship sailed on to deliver its cargo the crew ate the food on board without any strange effects. --Gibnews (talk) 21:56, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] right spelling of the names

Hi, ich found out, that the brothers Volkert and Boy came from the same Island like me. The right spelling of their name has to be "Lorenzen". In the german wiki, they wrote that the brothers were dutch. But I think it`s the old problem that deutsch (german) is frequently confused with dutch. Does anybody knows how the two brothers were classified in the log? EnkiduBn 18.03.2007

I've read a theory that the slour on the ship may have been infected with ergot causing ergotism that caused the crew to abandon the ship. // Liftarn

which is nor supported by the fact that the remainder of the voyage to Italy was uneventful with a new crew and existing ships stores. --Gibnews 20:54, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Bermuda Triangle

I think the line: "No reasonable inquiry includes "Bermuda Triangle" speculation, as the ship's course would not have taken it through that area."

Should be changed to: "No reasonable inquiry includes "Bermuda Triangle" speculation."

Or, even better: "No reasonable inquiry includes "Bermuda Triangle" speculation, because the Bermuda Triangle doesn't [expletive deleted] exist."

Why do we have to burden an encyclopedia entry with anything that even remotely supports "woo-woo" theories such as the so-called "Bermuda Triangle?"

Just my $0.02... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 131.137.245.198 (talk) 12:12, 3 April 2007 (UTC). Oops... forgot to sign: Pinto66, Canada (accessing Wikipedia from work)


While both you and I disbelieve the whole 'a ghost did it, I saw 'im I did' line of theories, they must be included because of 2 reasons,
1) NPOV, while we disbelieve that the occult even exists, there are those who believe in it, and see it as a valid possibility, so removing it would be to them like removing all the rational info and making it into an occult article for us. Both sides need to be represented for it to be fair and NPOV.
2) We have no proof that casper didnt come aboard and strangulate the entire crew :D. There is no proof that the occult doesnt exist, just as there is no proof it does (other than 'paranormal experiences (AKA daydreams)') So we cant just discount this line of thought as we have no proof its false.172.212.136.219 13:40, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

IMHO, if many people think the MC was cruising the Bermuda Triangle, and if many people think this may bear any relevance, then it's reasonable to clarify facts in that case. --Syzygy 08:41, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] In popular culture

Are there any articles about the Mary Celeste in popular culture, or is the list in this article someone's original work? If at all, I think this material belongs in the articles about the books/movies/songs, etc. and not here. Chances are, though, it's too trivial to appear even in those articles. In the mean time, we have an article about an historic event that is cluttered with contemporary references. It's just not necessary. Anyone wanting to know about the Mary Celeste in relationship to things that had nothing directly to do with the ship or event can simply click on the "what links here" link. Rklawton 01:53, 29 April 2007 (UTC)


The section on "The story in popular culture" seems to be erroneous in its statement on Doyle's short story "J. Habakuk Jephson's Statement" when it says "It was said that their tea was still warm and breakfast was cooking when the ship was discovered; these are fictional details from Doyle's story." I have skimmed through the story at http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext95/polst10.txt looking for these points and cannot find them, nor does a search show them. In fact the story says "They are of opinion that she had been abandoned several days, or perhaps weeks, before being picked up." and the whole plot of the story is contrary to it asserting that a meal was still cooking when the ship was found as in the story the ship is cast adrift off the coast of Africa after the passengers are murdered. Therefore it looks like this line about the origin of that myth is a myth itself and should be removed. Rab234 15:09, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Location

According to a source found on google earth http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/168176/an/0/page/0#168176 it was not found on the spanish coast but portuguese coast, and if you look at a map I believe its more accurate do say it was portuguese coast instead of spanish...

Iberian peninsula coast then? Chris Buttigieg 21:48, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
As a follow up, I have reverted your edit to appear as the Strait of Gibraltar which is more specific and as it appears in the article itself. Chris Buttigieg 22:05, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nonsense

The temptation to re-write the bit about steaming mugs of tea was too much, after all the captain was from Massachusetts where they threw all the tea away rather than pay tax on it --Gibnews 18:09, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Is it encyclopeic to call a ship "she"?

I notice the article uses the pronoun "she" to identify the ship. Should the pronoun "it" be used instead? I understand that nautical terms may refer to a ship in the feminine, but is it encyclopedic? I do not know the answer and am not being critical, just looking for clarity. Oh, and whatever is decided, it should be consistant within the article and with other articles. 208.203.4.140 18:44, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Its correct English, and this is the English language wikipedia. --Gibnews 23:07, 12 September 2007 (UTC)


Plus if your willing to cope with a few splinters, a ship can be all the woman you need172.212.136.219 13:45, 8 October 2007 (UTC)


In all seriousness though, is 'she' in reference to a ship really valid english, as I thought it was sailor slang personally.172.212.136.219 13:45, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
I just checked my trusty 'paper' World Book Encyclopedia circa 1960 and it uses "she" as a pronoun when referring to ships. So it would seem to be correct English (at least up to 1960)Postmortemjapan 13:54, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The nature of the cargo

There is some confusion on the nature of the cargo, however reliable sources say it was alcohol for the purposes of fortifying wine, the chemistry of alcohol would suggest that to be 95% ethanol with water.

That is consistent with the ships loading. Authors such as Hicks introduce the erroneous idea that it was Methanol, although there would be no sense in shipping that from America to Europe in 1872.

The term 'industrial alcohol' is ambiguous and is normally taken to mean denatured alcohol unsuitable for drinking. There is no evidence for this and again it would be pointless shipping alcohol like that.

95% ethanol with water can be drunk, its not a very inspiring drink and the voyage predates the invention of coca cola and there is no evidence of any other mixer being carried. The Captain was a non drinker and it was a commercial ship not a booze cruise. --Gibnews 09:07, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Other fictional accounts

Way too long. Anyone feel like condensing it? --John (talk) 07:15, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I have cut some unnecessary nonsense out, however an important feature of the story of the Mary Celeste is the myth that has been built up around the story by successive writers trying to answer 'the mystery' and inventing stories and events which are then repeated as fact by others. There is an industry on Mary Celeste books, which a search of Amazon reveals. --Gibnews (talk) 23:55, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Can references to someone in a book about something else mentioned the Mary Celeste really be considered "other fictional account"? Seems more like "references in popular culture" to me, and we know that they aren't popular. Duggy 1138 (talk) 12:45, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Two

It has been said that originally the Mary Celeste had two small boats, both of which could have been used as life-boats. It seems that one of them was destroyed when the ship was being loaded. The ship then set sail with only one life-boat. This fact seems to have helped send the crew to their deaths. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.4.21 (talk) 10:07, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

It's said wrong. The boat which was destroyed during loading cargo when a barrel was dropped on it was replaced with a new one. SOLAS regulations were different then. --Gibnews (talk) 23:42, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Charles Lurd said "he could not state how many there should have been [but] he felt sure there had been a boat at the main hatch".
Lurd seems to have been a member of the crew of the Dei Gratia. He treats it as a definite possibility that there should have been

more than one life boat. See http://www.maryceleste.net/part3.htm

For the avoidance of doubt that is a reference to my website, so I am familiar with the content. There was a boat, and the Captain and perhaps the crew of the DG knew their counterparts on the MC and had met them at the docks in the US. --Gibnews (talk) 18:45, 26 February 2008 (UTC)