Talk:Marwat

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Marwat is part of the WikiProject Afghanistan, a project to maintain and expand Afghanistan-related subjects on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale.
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale.

Contents

[edit] Should There be a Section "Present day notable Marwat"" or the same be deleted entirely.

  • I believe there should be a single line about those famous sons of soil who are alive. If dead people are included (unless they are really really important) the list would just go on and on. If that occurs then I suggest that the list be scrapped altogether. Nigar September 2, 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Yes, there should be such sort of page.

As this page relates to Marwat, I enormously appreciate such genus of section. As far as single, double or more lines about someone is concerned, I think it dosen't matter wether it should be based upon single or hundred lines. What matters is that the material provided in the article be true and geunine.

[edit] Who am I and who you are?

I am pure and proud to be Swati from Batgram District, residing in between 7 Oceans of the world, mostly in Islamabad. I own personal library at my home consisting of nearly 25,000 books, those collected and read by me since 2001. I never knew any of Marwats before going through history of Pakhtuns , except Saif ul Lah family. My father is a friend of Anwar Saif ul Lah, having good terms with Salim Saif ul Lah, me of Asad Saif ul Lah as he was my class-fellow from class 1-5 at O.P.F (*Girls College*) and my brother is friend of many of Saif ul Lah family, whom Kulsum Bibi calls his son.

This clearly proves that we are having strong, healthy and brotherly relations with the Saif ul Lah family. But here I must tell you, that my articles and materials on Habib ul Lah family are (100%) based upon truth with clearly-mentioned record in the history, which I gained throught studying, discussing and some reliable sources.

Beside this, the word "GHAZNI KHEL" is so much highlightly mentioned in this article, that sometimes it seems that you are "Asad Saif ul Lah" or son of "Anwar Saif ul Lah".

I here, would like to challenge anyone of you, that if you could prove any of my articles wrong or bogus. No, you can't, as no one can change the history.

As you raised the question of CSS / Sneaking of Akhter Munir Khan, I would like to share the following.

Under the consitution of Pakistan, a commissioned officer of Pakistan's Arm-Forces can join Civil Services of Pakistan, by appearing in competetive examination, as there is 10% quota reserved for them. Beside this for your very kind information ""To become a commissioned officer of Arms Forces, one has to go through ISSB, that is more tough then CSS, I must ensure you :)

You can ask this from your relative and my Uncle Anwar Saif ul Lah Khan, who was force to resign (DISMISSED in simple words) from CSP. Should I start mentioning the reason here? :)

By the way, attacking upon Akhter Munir, clearly proves that you are an opponent to him and opponent of reality and truth.

I must now contact some high administration of wikipedia, to stop some illiterate and un-educated people from editing historical pages, those are honours of us (Pakhtuns).

If you have guts and can talk through propper channel, I would like to humbly invite you to start a debate, discussion here, as per policy by Wiki Pedia. We must respect Wikipedia, as it is our own.


[edit] I am a Marwat and you are supposidly a Swati who has nothing to do with our tribe

Believe me that I am none of those persons whom you have mentioned as above. In fact I have no connection whatsoever with the usurper Saifullahs. I hate them to the back of my bone. On the other hand I am a pure Marwat and myself a Senior Bureaucrat. For your information I have cleared both ISSB and CSS. Trust me I know all about it and I genuinely know which one takes care of your intellect and which one takes care of your dumbness. On the contrary I damn care if you have 25000 books or 2 million books but apparently your written English suggests loudly that you have only studied up till Metric. Don’t you get the message (read my lips) that “This is not a personal page of either Saifullahs or Minakhels”. If you are so interested in licking the soles of Minakhels then draft separate articles in their accolades. But don’t project those non entities such as some God Damn “Raees Azam” (although I must give you full credit for creating this absurd title and by the way who the hell is he? – never heard of him). Moreover, for your information, an Army Officer who is inducted in the Civil Services has to simply appear before an interviewing panel. Every educated person in Pakistan knows that it was an antic of Zia’s Military Regime to appease the political elite of Pakistan by mostly inducting the produce (children) of big landlords or politicians who could easily sway this penal. On the other hand an ordinary person or let me call him a CIVILIAN, has to appear in 12 rigorous papers, Psychological tests, and Interviews. And do you know that any Captain Retarded (I am so sorry, I mean to say Captain Retired) at the time of their infamous induction in the civil services have only a qualification of Intermediate, while on the other hand the ordinary candidates are most of the time either Masters or double Masters with flying colors. I personally think that if a person has joined Army and has taken an oath to defend the frontiers of Pakistan as a soldier then he should keep his honor and stick to his profession. He should not run away from the tough life of being a soldier and join the much less rough ride of Civil Bureaucracy. Akhtar Munir (with his big moustaches) is a coward in my book because he cheated with his profession and wasted all the money spent on him by our poor state in the Military Academy. This is what I call “highly dishonorable”. Marwatt 23:04, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I can laugh, simply.

Yes you are right, I studied till METRIC, but it seems that you studied till Matric, as you are fail to write "Supposedly". :)

As far as my written English in concerned, I would like to say nothing instead calling my writing here as "Slang". Anyhow, if you wish, we could have a voice conversation or face to face dialogue somewhere in Islamabad.

And please don't censure to be a Ghazni Khel, specially a one related to Saifullahs. Last night, I got some proofs and evidences, which proved your one-siding favours and multi-faced attacks.

'Khan Habibullah Khan Marwat" was quite prominent personality and will remain in the history for long. He is the man who flew flag of Pakistan for 30 consecutive years. No one has achieved such honour in Pakistan. Don't dream, you are unable to flow a flag for conecutive 30 months.

Beside this, I am happy to see your post, that is full of jealousy and also clearly proves that you are "opponent" to him. This is what I wanted to prove here.

Wether I am a Swati or Marwat, an Ismaili or an Israeli, Wikipedia has nothing to do with me, nor history is the "monarchy" of yours.

Are you O.K? It seems that you are a teenager who is surrounded by passions and frustrations, that usually comes in one's mind at this age. You might be worrying, that how come such things came into my mind. Let me tell you, on one side you are blaming "Akhter Munir Khan Marwat" for "Army-Quit" and on the other side you are caliming to pass ISSB?

I can reply you in more bad language then you used for elders of your tribes, those might be having some close-relationships with you or some of your respected ones. But being a honoured guy, belonging to a honoured family, I would ask you to change yourself, as your tongue dosen't seems to be of "Stenographer" and you are calling yourself a Bureaucrat. What I have examined so far is, that you areunaware of ABC of Bureaucracy.

At the end, I would like you to kindly take your harsh words bad, otherwise I will make a plea,to Wikipedia's AMA, for appoint an advocate for this site i.e. Marwat, who would be responsible for examining, checking and later editing "True Lies". My "innocent" fellow, here you must know "Truth" wins. So don't force yourself to come in the ring of battle you have already lost.


Pa Marwato Nung Mein Uteralla Toora
Nungyalei Da Zamanay Za Yoe Swati Yam

[edit] You are playing with credibility of yourself, as well as with this site's values.

You ran from, discussion; a legal way. And you started deleting, editing and revrting in and of article. This proves that you were wrong, otherwise truth can smash everything in the world. Come on be a Mature one, as your pretended earlier, otherwsise leave this credible web-site for serious persons. A M. Khan

[edit] I like your new Drama of creating a User Name of Ghazni Khel

I thought we reached an agreement. But if you want to do it this way Mr. Swat or Mr. A.M. Khan or whatever, then you are just wasting your time. I agreed to your inclusion of names in one line and also polished the entries as well. But if you want to screw around then let that be the way. Marwatt 13:11, 9 September 2006 (UTC)


[edit] I am sorry

I think you both came upon anagreement, already. I amsorry and will just now takebackmy editing articles.

Long Live Peace and Long Ling Love

Professor Zarqoon Ali Khan Ghazni Khel

[edit] Marwatt I liked your attitude

Dear Marwatt, I liked your attitude now. It is too positive now. I am with you and wish to construct this and other site(s) with you jointly, to spread knowledge we know and seek knowledge from each other, that we don't know.

[edit] Please Discuss Your Additions to this Article over here

All editors are requested to first discuss their additions over here so that it could be analyzed whether their inclusion to this article is useful or not. Thank you for your patience and understanding. -- Marwatt 23:49, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why the Selected and Minor Ones Only?

Why are there selected and minor ones mentioned in the "Noteable Marwats Section" ?

This clearly unbalanced the article's status, as Ghazni Kehls are mentioned in this columns even they are not important ones.

Why Khan Habibullah Khan isn't mentioned here? The mostnoteable personality of Martwats. This is unfair.

My request then to you would be to think rationally and draft an entry which is commensurate with the other entries in the article. As a matter of fact (whether you agree or not) everyone in that list could claim that an extra Khan or Sardar or Raees-e-Azam be put with their names. So my dear friend what difference does it make if you call and write the gentleman as Habibullah Khan Mina Khel (he is still the same person). It will only lend balance and neutrality to the article. I hope you appreciate the fact that tomorrow someone else might also start editing this article by inserting more absurd titles. So try to be rational and follow the policies of Wikipedia. -- Marwatt 12:05, 11 September 2006 (UTC)


First of all, let me answer your tag, that is removed by me.

WP:Policy

Fairness of tone If we're going to characterize disputes neutrally, we should present competing views with a consistently fair and sensitive tone. Many articles end up as partisan commentary even while presenting both points of view. Even when a topic is presented in terms of facts rather than opinion, an article can still radiate an implied stance through either selection of which facts to present, or more subtly their organization — for instance, refuting opposing views as one goes along makes them look a lot worse than collecting them in an opinions-of-opponents section.

We should, instead, write articles with the tone that all positions presented are at least plausible, bearing in mind the important qualification about extreme minority views. Let's present all significant, competing views sympathetically. We can write with the attitude that such-and-such is a good idea, except that, in the view of some detractors, the supporters of said view overlooked such-and-such a detail.

Now let me mention one thing to you;

If a name Khan was mentioned twice and you were having ""preservations" against them.

You would have discussed it before, otherwsie you would have deleted Khan a single time. But you didn't done this, instead you deleted, edited and vandalised whole of the article, as usuall. This was against WP's policy.

At last, let me share one thing. Obscure people should never be allowed having a space in "Noteable Marwats". If they are allowed then they must have true face. I recently read Khan Habibullah Khan, at 3 national dailys. Were they also advertising or are you against him only pulling tribal enimity?

[edit] Please be concise and clear about your additions

I am not sure what you want to convey in the above lines. Please spell out your additions (one by one) to this page so they could be reviewed. Thank you for understanding. --Marwatt 22:59, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I will be concise but you have to be wake-up your conscience

You know very well, what I wanted to say.

Simply, I would like to ask you to take the page back to "Nuteral Article" that was agreed in-between us.

If not, then even do let me know. So I may approach and plan for a massive debate A M. Khan 12:28, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks

[edit] No personalism.

For personalism, there is no space on Wikipedia. Please, don't be personal, as we are here to spread, seek and gain knowledge.

No more "Ghazni Khel" rulings here. Just the truth be our motive, as per policy.

Begu Khel 20:49, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discuss you editions.

Please, kindly, discuss your editions right after you edit. This would make a peace and authentic way for editing and deletion.

I also agree with User:Begu Khel, that Dil Jan Khan never went to be a Federal Secretary, yes he remained Federal Addl Secy.

Let us owe to make our contribution to this site beyond involving ourselves into enimity and personal issues. [I will humbly add here that those who are unaware about facts regarding a particular individual,they ought to restrain.User Begu Khel,who claim's relationship with Khans of Begu Khel,hardly know's anything about Begu Khels.Mr Dil Jan Khan remained Federal secretary Norcotics control Division,Secretary Interior and Secretary SAFRAN.Wajdaan

[edit] No additions for Akhtar Munir Marwat

Since the independent entry of Akhtar Munir Marwat was deleted after a consensus among Wikipedia Editors therefore, adding his name (repeatedly) is just a POV from your side. And for your information if he becomes the Head or Chair of an International Organization (like Dil Jan was) then he will become a well known Civil Servant. Let me refresh your memories, as I told this to you earlier as well that there are more than (500 Marwat Civil Servants at different grades) and frankly I give a damn if he is a grade 20 or 21 Additional Secretary. On the other hand, on my own account, I added his Fathers name to this list (because no doubt he was a great Marwat) but you should resist from adding unverifiable information after his name as well (please refer to Khan Habibullah Khan's separate entry on Wikipedia and its discussion page as well). --Marwatt 03:18, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Entry of Akhter Munir Marwat

You yourself mentioned that Khan Habibullah Khan Fakhr-e-Marwat was no qualm a prominent and great Marwat. So you should know that Akhtar Munir Khan Marwat is his son and being a Captain (Retired), currently an Additional secretary to Government of Pakistan, is one among few quite famous, prominent and notable Marwats.

I met almost 500 Marwats in past 7 weeks and all of them told me that Akhtar Munir Marwat is well known to them. Even many were politically opponent to him or his family but they presented their salutation for him.

If there are 500 Marwat Civil Servants, could you name them that how many are working in Grade 21, at the present? Are they so famous as Akhtar Munir? Are they all sons of Khan Habibullah Khan? Do all of them held the same positions as he held?

Now, let me answer one thing. That Separate entry for Akhter Munir was deleted, no doubt. But this is not separate entry. There are thousands of names, entries mentioned in various articles but they themselves are not prominent to be having a separate article.

You are vandalising this page, I am sorry. As I immensely challenge you here, to prove that if Dil Jan Khan ever went to be a Federal Secretary? You yourself know better that he was an Additional Secretary to Ministry of Interior but he was unable to share Federal Secretary-ship. But you love to vandalise.

I am worried, that when this topic was locked, still after directives from administration, you never replied any of my discussion, suggestion here on this talk page and you kept quite.

It was you who must have talked before editing.

Don't vandalise this article, my brother, as this is not the property of Ghazni Khels who even are unable to protect the property of their ancestors.


A M. Khan 09:37, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] So what if he is the son of Khan Habibullah Khan

I am sorry but this is not a valid reason that since Akhtar Munir is the son of Habibullah Khan, therefore, he is a prominent Marwat. I don’t buy this. On the other hand, if he becomes a Federal Secretary like Dil Jan Khan did, then he might be worthy to be included in the list of Prominent Marwat Civil Servants. But you are not appreciating this fact as well that Dil Jan Khan went on to become the Chairman of United Nation’s International Narcotics Control Board and which is indeed a big honor. I don’t know whether you are aware of this fact or not but I would like you to check Dil Jan Khan's resume over here [1]. You will find out that he remained Federal Secretary of Three Pakistani Departments which are Narcotics Control Division, States and Frontier Regions, and Interior Division. So stop including non-noticeable people in this list. --Marwatt 01:41, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Totally disagreement.

Lakki Marwat 20:08, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

For past few months, I am noticing a proxy war between Ghazni Khels and Mina Khels. I never wrote, create or edited any of the articles on Wikipedia, ever. The proxy war on this article forced my ego to have an account to write in here.

First of all, this is not a big issue as my dear fellows made.

Akhter Munir Khan, must be given a place in notable Marwat's section, that is what I simply concluded.

The section is about Notable Marwats not only about Notable Marwats Holding Governmental Positions. Even though, Akhter Munir is one of very few Marwats who are holding such a big position in bureaucracy, he is more famous personally then being an Additional Secretary of a Ministry.

If it is essential for notable Marwats to be from higher grade, then the following names be cleaned up too. But who are you to decide the notables of our nation?

[edit] ================================================================================

Business
Zain-ul-Abiddin
Javed Saifullah Khan

Academia
Sherin Jan Khan
Dr. Fazlur Rahim Marwat

[edit] ================================================================================

I aslo assumed and concluded that you User:Marwatt are doing this because of personal or political antagonism and enormity. This is clear to a dead blind even, after reading whole of your edition's history and debate.

I am a Begu Khel by origin, being a Senior Member of Late Mashal Khan's family. If you are really Marwat then you must know that Late Mashal Khan was always one of the major opponents to Akhter Munir and Anwer Kamal, so am I. But I have nothing else to say that his name must be a part of Notable Marwats. Whole of Lakki Marwat knows that Anwer Kamal Mina Khel cannot even dream of winning, if Akhter Munir never leads his campaign. People of Lakki respects him, loves him, votes him not Anwer Kamal.

Be a bold person, as you are. I knew this, after going through your hand-outs to Wikipedia. You are man of wisdom but you need tolerance, my dear User:Marwatt.

[edit] Kasam Pe Khduai Ka de rana We Lekal

Ter so pore che ze zamdai yem, Wala ka rana Akhtar Munir ya nor fazoolyat pe de article che wachai.

Yes I agree though with you on one account, and that Mina Khels were really afraid of late Khan Mashaal Khan untill he was alive.

And by the way do you know that its a misconduct for a government servant like Akhtar Munir to actively participate in election campaign of his brother. I think this is a fit case for National Accountability Bureau. --Marwatt 03:39, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Do whatever you can.

Personal attacks are against the policy of this World-Wide reknown site; Wikipedia.

Anyhow, your claim for being a government official, not proved so far. I wish if you really are a government official. So I would like to see, that how you can make NAB nabbing Akhter Munir of whom ""stick"" can hardly be held in your hands. I hope you understood by memorising the famous proverb of Pashto.

I am not Marwat nor lived in Lakki Marwat, so I won't comment on Mashal Khan. But if "brave" yes ""brave"" Ghazni Khels are preaching Mashal Khan, then it means he was the only one to be counterpart of Mina Khels but still the lowest to progeny of Habibullahs, as I am keep on hearing, reading and noticing their bravery. Salutation to brave Mina Khels who never compromises on their honour and dignity.

Note: I am extremely sorry for discussing such un-concerned issues here on this article. Such issues should be discussed at chat-times. But readers, administrators and examiners must know, that this is tidy, conducted and clean reply to whatever User:Marwatt has writeen in the previous paragraph to this one the one that was full of personal attacks. This proves my claim that he is editing this article on basis of personal enmity. Administrators musttake notice of his "personalism".

[edit] Now it is below my dignity to respond

I dont consider it worthy to respond to your above foul language anymore. Your POV entries carry no weight. --Marwatt 14:39, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm very sorry to hear that. However, I would comment that edit warring isn't an effective means to resolve this situation. Could I suggest you list your concerns about the article content. For example, which sentences aren't supported by the references. Thanks, Addhoc 14:56, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why?

I don't know what make you feel so dis-hearted.

I haven't used any abusive languiage, may be in your language some words of english be considered as abuse. Be a polit and humble one always.

Regards A M. Khan 14:34, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Whole issue revolves around your POV Entry on Akhtar Munir Marwat

Just for your benefit I am reproducing Wikipedia's Policy on Notable People and Biographies.

I quote:

  • The person has been the primary subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the person.1
    • This criterion includes published works in all forms, such as newspaper articles, magazine articles, books, scholarly papers, and television documentaries2 except for the following:
      • Media reprints of the person's autobiography or self-promotional works.3
      • Works carrying merely trivial coverage, such as newspaper articles that just mention the person in passing, telephone directory listings, or simple records of births and deaths.4
  • The person made a widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in their specific field.5
  • Political figures holding international, national or statewide/province wide office or members of a national, state or provincial legislature.6 (For candidates for office, see the ongoing discussion at Wikipedia:Candidates and elections.)
  • Major local political figures who receive (or received) significant press coverage.5 Just being an elected local official does not guarantee notability.
  • Widely recognized entertainment personalities and opinion makers (i.e. - Hollywood Walk of Fame)
  • Sportspeople/athletes/competitors who have played in a fully professional league, or a competition of equivalent standing in a non-league sport such as swimming, or at the highest level in mainly amateur sports or other competitive activities that are themselves considered notable, including college sports in the United States. Articles about first team squad members who have not made a first team appearance may also be appropriate, but only if the individual is at a club of sufficient stature that most members of its squad are worthy of articles. Third party verification from a non-trivial publication outside of publications by sponsors of the sport or activity should be provided to demonstrate that the subject is widely recognized & mdash; meeting the first criteria & mdash; as performing in a fully professional league or at the highest level.
  • Notable actors and television personalities who have appeared in well-known films or television productions. Notability can be determined by:
    • Multiple features in popular culture publications such as Vogue, GQ, Elle, FHM or national newspapers5
    • A large fan base, fan listing or "cult" following
    • An independent biography5
    • Name recognition
    • Commercial endorsements
  • Published authors, editors and photographers who received multiple independent reviews of or awards for their work
  • Painters, sculptors, architects, engineers, and other professionals whose work is widely recognized (for better or worse) and who are likely to become a part of the enduring historical record of that field
  • Persons achieving renown or notoriety for their involvement in newsworthy events, such as by being assassinated.

Since Akhtar Munir did not fulfill any of the above criteria, therefore, as a consensus the Wikipedian Editors twice deleted his separate entry (which was also created by you)I can refresh your memory with these links [2] & [3].

Please consider this fact that this page is to portray the great clan of Marwat and not a small family of Mina Khel. You have been repeatedly trying to insert such POV entries. Stop this immediately and try to add constructive comments to this article. That’s the only way which will stop this edit war which is dominantly characterized by your vandalization of this article. --Marwatt 20:51, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Listen my brother.

I affirm and agree on deletion of article Akhtar Munir Marwat, that I hope will soon be placed again with no-challenge left.

But i am not creating his seprate entry again now, on article Marwat.

As you know yourself that he is one of famous Marwat's and majority of Marwat's know him, I would you to be positive and let his name be included here.

I here also affirm that I amdeeply inspired by your works on Wikipedia, I wish if I could be part of you by assisting you in making many projects, those would be valuable, noteable and remarkable.

Here, I vow not to make any edits for Akhtar Munir Khan, if you agree to enter his name in Noteable Marwats, as no doubt he is noteable. I can prove it from your side too, if you wish.

So do you agree?

Regards Your brother & wiki-mate A M. Khan 21:17, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I will only follow the policy of WP:BIO

First of all, don’t try to patronize me. I don’t think we are brothers.

Secondly, he has to fulfill the policy of WP:BIO.

Thirdly, since there is now a separate article for Habibullah Khan, therefore, you should also think of curtailing his entry in Marwat. There is no point in writing a whole paragraph about a person when there is a separate article about him. --Marwatt 22:33, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] O.K Then I must inform you a policy matter

I am not creating a seprate article for Akhtar Munir Khan Marwat. The policy of WP:BIO is about creating a new article. As the article is about Marwats and Akhtar Munir Khan Marwat is too famous in Marwat's tribe, not only by being many of noteable posts but he is also famous for his personal and kind deeds. No doubt, he is one the famous Marwats.

Untill unless, I am alive, I will also obey WP Policy.

Let me clear, I was calling you brother, as Muslims are brother, accordind to Islam].

Regards

A M. Khan

A M. Khan 13:55, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Please follow established Wikipedia policies, A. M. Khan. Refusing to do so may lead to a block. -- ✎ Wizardry Dragon (Talk to Me) (Support Neutrality on Wikipedia) 00:10, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
Wizardry Dragon (Talk to Me) (Support Neutrality on Wikipedia), as I said above, Untill Unless, I am alive, I will alsoobey WP policy. This site Wikipedia's site not mine, so for sure I will follow them.

[edit] Come on, let make this article free of disputes and erros

After the full-protection of this page, I would like to invite all the parties for friendly and kind dialogues to make this page free of disputes and errors. As we are having edit war on this article for past three months, the Image of this article is gone worst and down. On this platform, I very kindly as you to discuss the disputes of this article. And for sure, also to kick-off the hate, that has entered to our hearts for each others.

Hope, that our sincere efforts help "WIKIPEDIA" a free institution for education and for all.

Regards,

Your Wiki-Mate

A M. Khan 19:28, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Preliminary Questions

Hello guys. I see that the edit warring concerns solely the insertion of Akhter Munir Marwat as a "notable" Marwat. I got 2 simple questions:

  • What is the equivalent of "Additional Secretary" function in other countries? I have read User:Marwatt's comment on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Akhter Munir Marwat which states that it is a middle level Bureaucrat function in the Civil Bureaucracy. Is this correct?
  • Browsing the internet i found the following:
    • Director-General Interior, Akhtar Munir Marwat (jang.com.pk).
    • The taskforce to counter suicide bombing headed by Akhtar Munir Marwat, joint secretary with the Interior Ministry (fact.com.pk).
    • Honorary Secretary of Peshawar Flying Club: Mr. Akhtar Munir Marwat (pakistaniaviation.com).
    • Member of the Board of Governors of Overseas Pakistanis Foundation, Mr. Akhtar Munir Marwat (appearing as Joint Secretary, Immigration & Passport), Ministry of Interior, Islamabad (opf.gov.pk).
    • Akhtar Munir Marwat, MD Provincial Urban Development Board was transferred and posted as commissioner Kohat. (lib.virginia.edu).
    • I also found the following: In a letter written to Joint Secretary of the Ministry of Interior, Akhtar Munir Marwat, Mr Zardari said he "wished to cooperate and participate" in the investigation being carried out by the investigating magistrate of Geneva, and clear his name and hoped that the proceedings would be deferred for a future date due to his "ill health and inability to travel on medical advice." (karachipage.com).

So is all of these people refer to the same Akhtar in question? -- Szvest 11:24, 9 November 2006 (UTC) Wiki me up ®

Yes, you are absolutely right, all the links are of the same Akhtar Munir Marwat, whom I am editing. He is the Honourary Secretary of Peshawar Flying club, he is also the younger son of Khan Habibullah Khan. Not only these he held various other high important designations of Bureaucracy of Pakistan, such as Secretary Social Welfare, Balochistan, Commissioner of Malakand, Commissioner Quetta, Deputy Commissioner of various places and even Political Agent who is directly under President and Governor only and have many Law enforcement powers that can be challenged by President of Pakistan and few by Governor of the relevant Agency.

Additional Secretary is the 2nd highest rank in the bureaucracy of Pakistan. Also be aware that Federal Additional Secretary is the same rank as of any of the Chief Secretaries in Pakistan. Additional secretary is in the same grade (21), as any of the 6 Chief Secretaries those are working in Pakistan. Let me add very important and elevated valuable thing here that currently Akhtar Munir Marwat, is working as Additional Secretary for Ministry of Kashmir Affairs and Northern Areas. Kashmir and Northern Areas, both of the regions are represented by 2 different Chief Secretaries, those two are having more power than any other 4 Chief Secretaries of NWFP, Punjab, Balochistan and Sindh). These later mentioned Chief Secretaries are most power after the Governors of their provinces. As you must know Pakistan was a colonial state of British, so still the same system is running in Pakistan and India. But in Kashmir and Northern Areas, Chief Secretaries are directly powerful, as they are the major representatives of Federation of Pakistan (Federal), as in both areas there is no Governor nor any higher representative of Federation except these two CS. ‘’’Now come to the main point, that Akhtar Munir Khan Marwat is superior to both of the Chief Secretaries of Kashmir and to Northern Areas of Pakistan a.k.a. FANA (Federally Administrative Northern Areas). Both of the Chief Secretaries are under to him’’’. You can also send an e-mail to the mentioned Ministry and they will reply you with the answer that will support my above mentioned claim.

Now, as you can make an easy Justice yourself, just give me a reason that how come Akhtar Munir Marwat is not a distinguished personality? I don’t want to lengthy this topic by clearing you that User:Marwatt is political opponent to Akhtar Munir Khan Marwat, his brother Anwar Kamal Khan Marwat and all others relevant to this notable and famous personality of Marwat. For god sake, ask him not to bring personalism here.

It is my mistake that a separate page (Article) for Akhtar Munir Khan Marwat was deleted due to my absence and not filling the requirement. User:FayssalF, don’t you think that there should be a separate article for this person? Yes, there should be. User:Marwatt even tried to delete the article of Khan Habibullah Khan and Anwar Kamal Khan claiming that they don’t meet the Wiki criteria, infact he thought that I won’t be able to defend them so they will be deleted otherwise he know well that Khan Habibullah Khan was most high profiled Marwat in government ever. This clearly proves that he is against this outstanding and prominent family on personal basis.


Thanking you in anticipation,


Regards,

A M. Khan 13:44, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] My Counter Argument to the above Comments of User:A M. Khan

Well every one, I can only say that I am myself a Grade 20 Officer in the Federal Civil Bureaucracy of Pakistan and I believe I can provide certain facts and figures for removing this mystical aura of being a so-called “Additional Secretary” in the Federal Bureaucracy of Pakistan.

Unfortunately, we Pakistanis were a colony of Great Britain and they left us with this rotten structure of Bureaucracy that has crumbled in many developing countries under its own dead weight. Currently we are also in the process of restructuring and reforming our Civil Services under a joint pressure from World Bank and IMF, who have provided generous funds for accomplishing this Herculean task. In the process though much of the old system has been discarded in which a bureaucrat was considered as a demigod and earthen lord of the poor people of Pakistan.

As a matter of fact we still have a huge federal and provincial bureaucracy and for the record there are 45 Divisions at the Federal Secretariat level of Pakistan and each one of them is headed by a Federal Secretary of Basic Pay Scale or BPS 22 (though a few of them got promoted to BPS 23 as well and are called as Secretary Generals) [4]. Furthermore, every Division in the Federal Secretariat has on the average 2 Additional Secretaries of BPS 21 and which makes their number roughly at 90 (once again this number is just and I repeat just for the Federal Secretariat of Pakistan). Having said that, I should also point out that there are 4 Provinces, ICT (Islamabad Capital Territory), Azad Jammu and Kashmir, and countless other Federal and Provincial Autonomous and Semi-Autonomous Bodies and Organizations which have both Officers of BPS 22 and 21. As a rough estimate Total Federal Employees in BPS 19-22 are about 3200 [5]. Now that’s just the civil side of our enormous bureaucracy. What about Officers of Armed Forces of Pakistan in BPS 22 and 21? Since this information is classified but I can give a rough estimate from this report [6] that there are more than 50 Officers in total (Army, Air Force, and Navy) who are at the level of Lieutenant General or BPS 22 and one can thus make their own fair assessment of Officers of Armed Forces in Basic Pay Scale 21.

The point Which I want to make is that if we start to make separate pages for each of these bureaucrats who have done nothing else but to earn a monthly salary and go home and none of their actions conform with the policies of WP:BIO then Wikipedia will just have to make a thousand pages for Pakistani Bureaucrats alone. The point is that if you are a poor artist with no money in your pocket but have created a master piece which attracts national or international recognition then that is what we call fame. Being a “private pilot” is not at all a criterion for inclusion in Wikipedia. As a matter of fact there are a total of 244,000 Private Pilots in USA alone [7] and alternatively you can estimate the number of private pilots in Pakistan.

Therefore, Akhtar Munir Marwat is just another middle level Bureaucrat who has done nothing of national or international fame and thus does not qualify to be included in this article. --Marwatt 00:22, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Attention: User:FayssalF, now you can decide yourself

(NOTE = I HAVE PROVIDED MY REPLY TO EVERY PARAGRAPH IN ITALICS. --Marwatt 15:14, 10 November 2006 (UTC))

First of all, I would like you to pay attention on the followings:

If User:Marwatt starts hard-working on other issues like this minor issue, he might help Wikipedia. But once again, you can notice yourself that he is victim of personalism. Why he cannot find a link for Khan Habibullah Khan's article? As a Wikipedian it is his duty to find links for the articles and to expand him. He starts deleting the articles of Khan Habibullah Khan and Anwar Kamal Khan because of having personal enmity with this family, it is clear now.

I offered my genuine help very early on but you were bent upon to include POV entries and which are distorting the facts. For example there is no valid, concrete, and credible proof (though I know that he never assumed those responsibilities) that Khan Habibullah Khan remained an Acting President.

Now let me tell you, I agree that there are large number of BPS 21 and BPS 22 officers in Pakistan. But here let me add very very informatics thing for you that Ministries Section Officers (who basically are in grade 17 & 18) are even having a separate Section to take control of any organization of his relevant Ministry.

There are more than a thousend Section Officers in the Federal Secretariat alone. A section Officer is just like a dignified Clerk and nothing else. You are talking as if a section officer, (God Forbid) owns a Government Organization.

Suppose an I.G Inspector General who in Pakistan is basically in Grade-21 or Grade-22 is under the Joint Secretary of that Ministry even. A Joint Secretary is having 2-4 Deputy Secretaries under him/her. Same like each deputy secretary is having 3-6 Section Officers under him. One of the S.O would be responsible for Police Section, one for Passport Section, one for Immigration, One for Arms and so on. Now you can yourself guess the powers of Bureaucracy in Pakistan.

Please don't project a negetive image of Pakistani Bureaucracy. What powers are you talking about. I have been working for the last 20 years as a DMG officer and I never saw any powers. The actual power lies with the Pakistani population. A Bureaucrat is a Public Servant and is specifically recruited for serving people and not to boss them around which incidently happened in less educated areas of Pakistan in the past.

There is too much to say on this article, too much. But it will spoil and damage the "soul" of the actual point of debate we are discussing here.

I totally agree. Don't beat around the bush, come to the issue at the center.

My fellow User:Marwatt himself curses Bureaucracy that is a British System. This shows that a Bureaucracy is the actual power in Pakistan. Bureaucrats are official policy makes in the relevant Ministries under the constitution of Pakistan and ESTACOD a.k.a Establishment Codes. The Ministries Officers are not under the staffs that are deployed on field. Like Ministry of Defence is having Army, Navy, PIA, Air Force, Aviation Authority, Civil Aviation Authority, SCO, and many many more divisions. A Grade 22 Officer represents all of these divisions, but they are different parts of the ministries. So there are for sure under a Joint Secretary of Ministry.

What the heck are trying to say over here????

Now let me clear by one of your own link. hat is about Zardari's (Husband of Ex-Prime Minister of Pakistan Benazir Bhutto to Akhtar Munir Marwat. This clearly shows the power of a bureaucrat, that how much power he/she is having to interfere in Governmental Politics.

I would once agian say that what the hell are trying to prove - Looks like a completely irrelevant thing???

There are nearly 100 Secretaries and Additional Secretaries in Pakistan and 6 Chief Secretaries. Having pages for secretaries and Additional secretaries is worth for Wikipedia. In Pakistan there are more then 2000 Assembly Members now, Including Assemblies of Punjab Balochistan Sindh, NWFP Northern Areas Kashmir. So when we are having the pages for those who even are illiterate mostly, they why can't we have for an Additional Secretary who is having Pakistan's first Private Pilot Licence #001. You can check it by e-mailing it to Civil Aviation Authority of Pakistan. And here also let me inform you that very few of Bureaucrats become Commissioners Deputy CommissionersPolitical Agents, Director Generals, Managing Directors and some other high profile posts.

Don't redicule the elected public officials. Pakistan is after all a Democracy and any elected Member of Parliament qualifies the Wikipedia's policy on WP:BIO.

Now also let me rewrite that Akhtar Munir currently heading two Chief Secretaries out of 6 from Pakistan. And you must know the powers of Chief Secretaries yourself and then decide.

How on earth did you assume this rediculous claim. A Chief Secreatry is never even responsible to a Federal Secretary let alone a junior officer like Additional Secreatry.

I don't know why USer:Marwatt is cursing the British Bureaucracy System, being himself a Bureaucrat, as he claims. There are no reforms at the moment when there will be, surely we will follow those but won't talk against it as he is doing.

Well, there are massive reforms going on and as a first step a few years back the erstwhile notorious “Commissioner System” was discarded and which gave way to a new system of Local Government. You can check all such measures at the web site of National Reconstruction Bureau [8]. Moreover, recently National Commission for Government Reforms (NCGR) was established under the chairmanship of Dr. Ishrat Hussain [9] and which also took over the activities of Civil Services Reform Unit (CSRU) [10]. In addition to the above, individual departments have also undertaken their restructuring and Central Board of Revenue (CBR) is one of them [11]. In a span of two years, the bureaucrats of Pakistan will become efficient Public Servants.

On one stage he wrote that there are 3200 Officers of BPS 19, this shows that how much Additional Secretaries are controlling.

I quoted a source which said that there are more than 3200 officers from BPS 19 to BPS 22 in the Federal Bureaucracy of Pakistan and not only BPS 19. So don't twist the facts.

May be he is the one who goes his home with doing nothing in office. But I know many many bureaucrats who are working to make this country a grown up one.

I think you should desist from personal attacks. I never mentioned anyone by name. And I better warn you once again for this.

Dear FayssalF, I never wanted to make this topic lengthy, but as you know, it is extremely necessary to reply the points of USer:Marwatt, as this is the chance to clear this issue. Now when he is fail to defend his claim, he started turning the task of this discussion, by warding and facing the topic to some where else.

And When exactly did I do that???

At the end, if you wish, you can check the system of Bureaucracy in British, we are having same system it would be easy for you to understand. Otherwise you can visit www.csspk.com here you will find a book ESTACODE (Online Version) there you will know the powers of a bureaucrat. Even though Minister cannot issue something directly, until unless Secretary doesn’t permits it. You can check this enormous claim too.Regards A M. Khan 07:05, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Any reader of the above comment, I leave it your wild imagination whether a Minister (who is the real head of a Department) can act on his own or have to seek an approval of his subordinates for taking a public policy decision (there is a difference between consultation and seeking permission). It would be like Condoleezza Rice asking a permission from an Assistant under Secretary to take an action or not. Can someone help me out here. What the heck is he saying. Man he sure is obsessed with this guy (Akhtar Munir Marwat). I don't know how to bridge the "perception gap" that exists between his thinking and the reality. Can someone please help me out over here.--Marwatt 14:24, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mediation

Hi Marwatt. I am sorry that you feel unhappy w/ Khan's comments but i hope you take it easy because it is all around the edit conflict in the article. I just don't give attention to what one says or thinks about the other.

Now, as i get to know that Akhtar Munir Marwat handles many positions, i'd consider him worthy for inclusion in the article. However, i'd not support a creation of an article about him. He is then notable among Marwats but not notable for inclusion in wikipedia as per WP:Notability.

What i'd ask from you now is to accept this middle ground to sort this issue out for once. If you are not feeling satisfied w/ my opinion than i'd like to see another opinion of another admin. Is that okay w/ you? -- Szvest 14:37, 10 November 2006 (UTC) Wiki me up ®

I don’t want to seek an opinion from any one else as I think you are a pretty balanced person, so I am fine with your mediation. Though it’s all about principles. If we let him have his way now then what good it is for me to guard [Wikipedia]. And I know that you are not an expert of the contents of the subject matter but I am. I am myself an officer with 20 years of work experience in the civil bureaucracy of Pakistan. If Akhtar Munir Marwat is in BPS 21 then I am in BPS 20. If he is going to retire in 2008 then I am going to retire in 2025. The problem is that being a bureaucrat of that caliber, I don’t see any merits of including my name or someone else's name until I have done something extra ordinary. Honestly there are a lot of Marwat Civil Servants (currently working in Federal and Provincial Bureaucracies) and if we let Akhtar Munir's name to be added to this list then it’s going to open a flood gate of other people whom I have so far successful warded. Please look at the consequences of such act. And I am not going into the details of his sock puppetry, uncivil language, and invitations to personally chat with him on “batagram786@ hotmail.com”. Even in his recent comment he attacked me personally. --Marwatt 15:30, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the prompt reply and your confidence. I appreciate that. True that i am not an expert on the issue on hand but after finding out that Akhtar Munir Khan has been/was handling several functions (i.e. Member of the Board of Governors of Overseas Pakistanis Foundation, MD Provincial Urban Development Board, Head of the taskforce to counter suicide bombing, etc...) i thought he is worthy to be mentioned among notable Marwats. Note that i am not even mentioning his function as secretary Additional Secretary, which for me is not notable as a function but i mention the other ones. On the other hand, having an article about him is questionable and i personally wouldn't support that as per WP:Notability.
Thanks again for your understanding and cooperation. I'll unprotect the article now and if there are any problems later please let me know. Feel free to contact me if you need any kind of help in the future. -- Szvest 17:21, 10 November 2006 (UTC) Wiki me up ®
I enormously accept your decission. I am really happy and glad but not shocked to see your justice, as I know truth wins atlast so it has to happen. Appraoching you out of 100s of administrator was because I knew you are man of principles and man of justice.

I don't care if he is Grade-20 and dosen't know any other notable Marwat other then Habibullah's family or Saifullah's family. The both families are leading families of Marwats. By the way, Akhtar Munir Khan is not famous for being in Grade-21, he is famous for his kind deeds.

My claim that Chief secretaries of both the regions, Kashmir and Northern areas are under him can easily be proved, if you call relevant Ministry i.e. [[Ministry of KANA}} tomorrow. If this claim is found wrong, then do remove his name from list, I am with you.

At the moment there are two Marwats in Grade-21, one Akhtar Munir and one another but he isn't famous as no one (Marwat) confirmed his full name to me even. Look how famous he is, that User:Marwatt even knows the retirment year of Akhtar Munir Khan, very valueable point to be noted.

My dear brother Wiki me up ® I have many things to challenge here for which my fellow User:Marwatt will be feeling guilty, but I swear upon Almighty that just for your honour and dignity and to give you respect, I vow not to write any thing here. Otherwise, he will not be finding a path for quitting.

Once again, I am having respect for you from the very first day, as you replied and helped me in kind and nice way even you didn't know me. Otherwise, I must have written a lenghtyCharge-Sheet against User:Marwatt

Regards A M. Khan 18:41, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] My last piece of advise to you

Please desist from getting personal in any of your conversations. --Marwatt 21:01, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I knew that you will do this

Any edits (onwards) should be discussed on this page. Dont start a new edit war over here. --Marwatt 20:39, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nothing wrong.

There is nothing wrong in entering the names of those famous persons. They even meets the Wikipedia rules & regulations for having articles for themselves even. They are most famous persons then many others. The names must be givenplace here. I suggest. Rest you and Mr. Khan should decide. Begu Khel 20:58, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree, there is nothing wrong but everything positive in adding the information. I don't know who the editor was. But I would like to go on for such edits, after a consensus. Please go ahead. Regars A M. Khan 18:07, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Apart from being notable or not, please note guys that Wikipedia is not a directory! Please refer to WP:NOT. Szvest Wiki me up ® 18:14, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
If the subject is notable, it shoult be easy to provide verifiable links with information on him or her. ✎ Wizardry Dragon (Talk to Me) (My Contributions) (Page Moves) (Support Neutrality on Wikipedia) 18:25, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the advise of both. I agree that this is not directory but entering 3-4 lines to an article that is already short will surely be valueable and detailfull. You must know that the article is about a clan and someone notable in backward clan is proud thing for the civics of those clans. I will surely provide links. I am extremely thankful for your prompt help, you provided whenever needed. Regards A M. Khan 18:28, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
No problem w/ 3 or 4 but they should be notable and as Wizardry Dragon said it would be easy to verify if they are notable or not. I hope it is clear. -- Szvest Wiki me up ® 18:31, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New edits be refferenced.

My suggestion: Every edits from onwards be made after discussing here. Any edit w/out discussion must have refference. Without these terms no edits be accepted. Begu Khel 19:58, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] General Comments

I haven't read all the comments, but reading the article, but my reaction is that this doesn't read like an objective article. Can we at least rewrite statements like:

Marwat مروت, a well known branch of Pashtun tribe, are the direct descendents of a Persian Prince, Shah Hussain of the house of Ghor (Afghanistan) and Bibi Mato (Daughter of Sheikh Baittan).

to something like:

The Marwat مروت, are a major branch (tribe) of the Pashtun (See Pashtun tribes). Marwat genealogies document (claim?) the tribe to be direct descendents of a Persian Prince Shah Hussain (Marwat Ancestor) of the house of Ghor (Afghanistan) and Bibi Mato (Daughter of Sheikh Baittan)....

and so on?

--iFaqeer 02:04, 21 November 2006 (UTC)


What a shame.

If anyone reads the Marwat page, he/she will feel impressed from their history and achievements. But he/she will be highly annoyed if he/she realizes that current day Marwats are fighting for the advertisements of their so called God Fathers. Please be sensible and do not behave as educated illiterates. Keep the page free from politics and personal prejudices. In this information age, pukhtoons are still resistant to change. An eye for an eye and the whole world is blind.

Thanks.--nvd (talk) 05:55, 14 May 2008 (UTC)