Talk:Martyrdom in Islam
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The term Shahid is also used in punjabi language with reference to a martyrdom i.e. Shahid Bhagat Singh.
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[edit] Other beliefs
I deleted that section, because I've never heard such things as public opinion. i'm a Muslim living in a Muslim country. 78.154.36.48 12:48, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Biased, opinionated and false
"The suicide bombers are called "Shahids" and after their death attain the rank of a Martyr".
This article portrayed (?) that sentence in giving out the false idea that any suicide bomber is a shaheed. True, some people do regard them as shaheed, but in the context of Islam, they are not shaheed. That is clearly a biased statement, completely opinionated and false.
[edit] First shahid
What about the first shahid? I heard it was a women named Sumejja.
[edit] Martyr
I disagree with the phrase, "it is also used by Arab Christians to describe persons killed on duty or during wars. In this case, the term equals the term martyr."
The Christian concept of martyr does not include all heros. There is a difference. For example, Joan of Arc would not have been considered a martyr had she fallen in battle. She would have simply been a hero. It is only the fact that she was convicted of heresy and burned at the stake that makes her a martyr.
In other words, the Christian concept of a martyr is one who dies for their beliefs. It does not include those that are killed on duty or during wars.
72.177.66.122 17:59, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
I quite agree, that's why I edited the text to reflect this difference between the Islamic and Christian concept of martyrs. I added some remarks on the so-called "success" of the Lebanon attack, because i think that to get the US more deeply involved in the ME and beyond is not exactly a success. At the time, I was not logged in, can i change that in 'history'? or somewhere else?
VNCCC (talk) 16:54, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I see my work has been completely undone and any and all references to Christianity removed. Do we deal with each other in this way in Wikipedia? I have a talk page, you know. So please, before radical removals, send me a message. Now here's my message to Dchall, also to be found on on his talk page:
And why, pray tell me, is the following too much POV and the rest of the article is not?
"Their handiwork has given rise to an explosion of defense spending and many an actual war. Both factors contribute to the rise of the industrialized countries and the further disenfranchise of the third world. The occasional success of Lebanon has thus led to a structural polarization in what was supposed to become a global village after the fall of the Berlin Wall.
It is believed that once in the after life, the martyr receives one thousand virgins of his liking.The whole world now suffers under these misguided believers ( some of them children under the overpowering influence of older men: a form of pedophilia ) who actively seek death to declare their Faith, instead of encountering death as an unwilled side effect ("incidental cost") of their verbal declarations of their belief and refusals to recant.
This is the case of the Christian martyr. The Roman Catholic Church beatifies martyrs, but holds no beliefs as to how their live in the wold to come is, or will be. Other Christian denominations also hold such martyrs in high regard. Amongst the modern ones are those who opposed Nazism in Germany and occupied countries. However, all those who used violence in doing so are never considered martyrs. Christianity has always chosen life over death, as witness its stance against abortion and what is so wrongfully called 'euthanasia' nowadays.
Thus, the Muslem shaheed must never be confused with the Christian martyr."
If nobody in the near future slaps my wrists here, I will re-insert my edit (maybe leaving out the Oh-so-sensitive p-word), before starting an undo-war.
VNCCC (talk) 17:58, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
- I've done some copyediting. It seems that the Christian concept of the martyr, while of course not the same as the shahid, is still parallel. This however is not the article to get down into the weeds with the differences between them. Also, I restored the Islam template and the "See also" section. // Chris (complaints)•(contribs) 03:52, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Hi! Thanks for the comment, Chris/Dchall. I still have to check your copyediting but I can in principle agree that the two concepts have parallels. However, it seems to me that the incidental death by the hands of others, as opposed to the sought-after death , even by one's own hand, separate the two concepts of martyr by a gulf so wide that the divergence has to be pointed out.
You may well be right that this is not the article to get into that matter all too deeply. But, once the parallel is drawn, the divergence must be noted as well. Could we agree on something like 'some similarities" (between the C. and M. type?
Also, I'd like to see more about the translation or derivation from the Greek. Most modern languages simply took over the Greek word from the Greek Bibles, thus 'martyr', 'martelaar' etc. by lack of a better term. How is that for Arabic?
If I undid a template, I'm sorry: Chalk it up to bad eyesight at the end of the working day.
-Checked the editing, looks good. I added Hiz'b'llah to the list of active operators but have no reference. Can someone fix that (if you agree that H. belongs in the list) ?
-The article now has" See also: Istishhad and Christian martyrs" at the top and a "SEE ALSO etc. ( list)" at the bottom; isn't it easier to go with only one?
Hope to hear from you again,
VNCCC (talk) 17:02, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Misconception
Hi! I found something wrong with the 'misconception' section. I came across a Sahih Bukhari Hadith which states the oppisite of the section.
Volume 2, Book 23, Number 434: Narrated Jabir:
When the time of the Battle of Uhud approached, my father called me at night and said: "I think that I will be the first amongst the companions of the Prophet to be martyred. I do not leave anyone after me dearer to me than you, except Allah's Apostle's soul and I owe some debt and you should repay it and treat your sisters favorably (nicely and politely)." So in the morning he was the first to be martyred and was buried along with another (martyr). I did not like to leave him with the other (martyr), so I took him out of the grave after six months of his burial and he was in the same condition as he was on the day of burial, except a slight change near his ear.
Could this please be added, so it is a factual section? Thank you.
(86.11.104.56 20:24, 17 January 2007 (UTC))
Another point: Could someone please substantiate the claim that most Muslims in the world view suicide bombing operations as murder? I've only seen statistics that show that the majority of Muslims in the USA disapprove of the tactic as unIslamic, while I've also seen polls from palestine, where a majority believe it is a justified Islamic tactic against Israel. I'm going to take that sentence out and just not have the article make generalizations about people's feelings without backing it up with data.
[edit] Houri
Isn't it commonly believed (or, at least it is a misconception that it is commonly believed) that martyrs get houri? (although the houri article says that all Muslims get houri, not just martyrs) Should this be mentioned in the article? --
131.215.166.209 23:52, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
No, it's Not just Martyrs.
78.154.36.48 12:55, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
What does it all mean? Do only martyrs get houri, or do others as well? Please, give some reference(s), like tried above ('the houri article says'). And what is the answer to the question: 'Should this be mentioned in the article?' Here, too: please give reasons.
VNCCC (talk) 17:01, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
