Talk:Martin van Creveld

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Contents

[edit] bomb European capitals

Is the only "source" for this the rense.com article? Because rense is, by wiki's own word, a conspiracy, hoax, and Holocaust denial propagating site run by a crank. This should be removed, unless a reliable source for this allegation can be found, in which case it should be replaced. Y.

Sorry, I know Martin van Creveld. I am credited in one of his books. The link that was given is a complete misrepresentation of his views. I replaced it with another link. Danny 21:29 Feb 18, 2003 (UTC)

I was also concerned about the source of that new Martin Van Creveld article on the IAP site "quoting" him saying "we could destroy all European capitals". Im not as certain about its validity as you are. "Does "more reliable" sources, however, mean sanitized sources? And wouldnt the act of sanitizing news sources be propagandist? -PackardGoose

ps. I hadnt noticed that you commented here. Ill have to take your word about that article - it does seem like a highly irresponsible position to take. -PackardGoose

The quote in the history doesn't make much sense either. He said they could hit most European capitals, even Rome -- isn't Rome one of the closest capitals to Israel? If Rome is the furthest extent, then they probably couldn't hit much outside of the Balkans and Hungary and Romania -- hardly most. Tuf-Kat

Actually, van Crefeld is quite an outspoken advocate of the peace camp in Israel. Like I said, I worked with him on a project about ten years ago and I've followed his career to some degree. He is not an advocate of "transfer" or any ridiculous plan to bomb Europe. In fact, I never ever heard anyone advocate that, and I've followed the Israeli extreme right quite extensively. Danny

Well, I'm glad someone's on top of this, because we cant simply blot out a potentially valid newsourse like the IAP on the basis of a few mis-stated reports. Who doesnt omplex get it completely wrong on a regular basis.. The site didnt bother to host that article itself anyway... suspicious. Be well done 'Vert

Thanks for all your work, I got to this article because of the "Bomb European Capitals" quote, and to my surprise it's clarified in this talk page Marty4286 21:03, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure what is being said in the source, I think it is being taken out of context at the least. At any rate it is it not a primary source? I think it should be deleted unless an other source can be found.KAM 23:14, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
I have been looking, but cannot find a primary source for this quote. Many online sites refer to "an interview published in Jerusalem", without specifying a source. Some sources credit the interview to Ferry Biedermann, and claim that it was published in "the prominent Dutch magazine Elsevier" on 31 January 2003. As far as I know, Elsevier is a publisher, not a magazine; and I can find no trace of this interview on their website. Without a primary source, it is difficult to know whether the interview ever actually took place, let alone whether this is an accurate and in-context extract; it certainly seems at variance with van Creveld's expressed views elsewhere.
I should add, though this is obviously not an acceptable source, that an Israeli friend of mine reports that a mutual friend spoke to van Creveld, who denied ever giving such an interview. I will see if I can clarify this. Meanwhile, although I do not propose at present to remove the section, I may do so in the future if I establish that it is indeed false or misleading. If someone can find a reliable primary source, that should be substituted for the current secondary one. RolandR 18:06, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Iran would be crazy

Not sure the quote about Iran and Nuclear Weapons is useful information. John Pilger's quote is different than the one in the International Herald Tribune, but he provides no reference. Stephanwehner

[edit] book reference

Where's a reference to The Rise and Decline of the State ?

In the new published works section. - BT 18:00, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of section due to BLP concerns

I removed the following section of material:

Controversial Statements and Views

As a teacher at Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Van Creveld became also known and widely criticized for his controversial views on women. In 2000, for instance, he stated that the majority of women do not learn anything in class; they only sit and warm up the chair. Between 2000 and 2006 he taught several research seminars with controversial titles, such as "The History of the Privileged Sex" (that is, of women). In the core of his misogynistic philosophy stands a notion that in the modern society women abuse their privileges against men. The men, on the other hand, are badly underprivileged and deprived of their basic rights. He also believes that women tend to be one of the main causes of all wars in history. The controversy was resolved in 2007, when a group of female students, former and present, filed a petition against Van Creveld, to be submitted to the university authorities. As a result, Van Creveld was deprived of his tenure and forced to retire. His overall attitude toward women is expressed and summarized in his Men, women and war (2001).

because it was not supported by references. I don't know one way or the other whether the material is true or not, but my understanding of the BLP guidelines is that material such as this needs to be firmly supported by citation. I'm going to leave a note on the talk page of the IP editor who posted it to inform them of this edit. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk / cont) 23:04, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

An attempt was made to re-post this material, with citations in Hebrew, and then with an English translation of the title of the citation only, but I removed them -- citations need to be in English. I've done my own search on Google, using various search terms, and have found nothing that corroborates this material. The same is true of the site for the English language version of Haaretz - nothing at all. Same for the website of Hebrew University, not even a press release on this subject. Indeed, HU lists MVC as an active member of the faculty, which rather contradicts the assertion that he was forced to retire. I've contacted Professor Van Creveld for his thoughts on the material. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk / cont) 03:51, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Profesor van Creveld has responded to my inquiry:

Finally, is true that I am now retired, but not for the reasons indicated. Nobody deprived me of my tenure. After 36 years, I simply felt that preferred to devote myself entirely to research, as I am doing right now.

Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk / cont) 08:14, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Tag & Assess 2008

Article reassessed and graded as start class. --dashiellx (talk) 17:27, 5 June 2008 (UTC)