Talk:Martin McGuinness

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is within the scope of the following WikiProjects:

WikiProject Ireland     (Rated Start-Class) Ireland Portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ireland, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Ireland on Wikipedia. For more information, or to get involved, visit the project page. Start This article has been rated as start-Class on the Project's quality scale. (If you rated the article please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.) Mid This article has been rated as mid-importance on the priority scale. WikiProject Biography     (Rated Start-Class) This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page. Biography Portal Start This article has been rated as start-Class on the project's quality scale. [FAQ] This article is supported by the Politics and government work group. Irish Republicanism WikiProject      (Rated Start-Class) This article is within the scope of the Irish Republicanism WikiProject, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of topics related to Irish republicanism and Irish nationalism. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. Start This article has been rated as start-Class on the assessment scale. (If you rated the article please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article.) High This article is on a subject of High-importance for Irish Republicanism-related articles. Article Grading: The article has been rated for quality and/or importance but has no comments yet. If appropriate, please review the article and then leave comments here to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article and what work it will need. WikiProject Northern Ireland      (Rated Start-Class) This article is within the scope of WikiProject Northern Ireland, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Northern Ireland on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. Start This article has been rated as start-Class on the assessment scale. (If you rated the article please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article.) Article Grading: The article has been rated for quality and/or importance but has no comments yet. If appropriate, please review the article and then leave comments here to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article and what work it will need. WikiProject Northern Ireland tasks: Here are some open WikiProject Northern Ireland tasks: Places: Mussenden Temple and Downhill Demesne, Devenish Island Monastic Site, Killyclogher, Derryvore Landmarks: The Skerries (Northern Ireland), Black Pig's Dyke, Helen's Tower Parks and gardens: Events: Ulster Cup, Ulster hockey People: Alison Campbell, Paul Charles (novelist), Paula Clamp, Max Clendinning, Colin Cooper (academic), Newton Emerson, Lucy Evangelista, Robert Hall (doctor), Shauna Gunn, Sophie Hoopman, H Douglas Keith, Charles Michael Lavery QC, Henry Lavery, Francis Maginn, Jim Malley, Catherine Jean Milligan, Phillip McCallen, Robert MacDonnell, Joseph Tomelty, Gayle Williamson, Zane Radcliffe, Professor Richard Rose, Brian Baird (newsreader) Newspapers/Magazines: Fortnight Magazine 'Schools/Colleges: Glenola Collegiate School, Our Lady and St Patrick's College, Belfast Boy's Model School, St. Columbanus' College, Streets: Rivers: River Bush, River Mourne, River Moyola, River Roe Organisations: Industrial Development Board, Forest Service Northern Ireland, Rivers Agency Northern Ireland, Invest NI, Roads Service Northern Ireland, Child Support Agency (NI), Boundary Commission for Northern Ireland, District Policing Partnerships, Compensation Agency, Office of the Oversight Commissioner, Electoral Office for Northern Ireland, Northern Ireland Housing Executive, Central Services Agency, Northern Ireland Blood Transfusion Service, Census Office in Northern Ireland, Northern Ireland Statistics and Research Agency, Cameron Commission, Hunt Committee, Stanley Leisure, Ormo, Sunblest (currently re-directs) History: Rose Report, History of Armagh, History of Newry, History of Lisburn Buildings: Belvoir Park Hospital, Guildhall, Derry Major topics: Geography of Northern Ireland, Geology of Northern Ireland, Integrated Education Edit or discuss this list.

Contents 1 30 years 2 IRA or PIRA 3 Guerrilla 4 Active service 5 Martin McGuinness' birth place 6 Birthname 7 Politics 8 "Allegations of Spying" information 9 Noticed this! 10 Provisional IRA activity and claims of Provisional IRA activity

[edit] 30 years

Nice example of why Wikipedia (or any other encyclopedia) shouldn't bother with events less than 30 years old. History will not be in a position to say anything definitive about people like McGuinness until various papers are released by governments. 18:49, 31 July 2005

[edit] IRA or PIRA

There is some dispute over the use of the name IRA or PIRA. The Provisional IRA are no more the PIRA and the Official IRA are the OIRA. You either refer to them as the Provisional IRA or the IRA. This has been confirmed to me by a member of Sinn Féin. I note that PIRA is used in some cases to distinguish the group but in this case it is clear that the Provisional IRA is the group refered to and there is no need for the incorrect - PIRA. Some might feel this is a pedanticism of the organisation itself and is not relevant - fair enough! Also, the use of the word "volunteers" was removed. Elsewhere on Wikipedia the term is used. There are inconsistencies. Again, people might feel it is a pedanticism of the group and is POV but calling IRA members "volunteers" is not incorrent. That is what they call themselves & that is what they are. Why shouldn't the term be used? I also do not agree with the piece abve ("Nice example of why..."). What do government papers say about McGuinness? Probably not much we don't already know about it. There is plenty of stuff on McGuinness out there. He's lived much of his life through politics and consequently has been in the public eye. Also, there are 1 or 2 very good histories of the IRA available. McGuinness's role in the organisation is well documented. 02:39, 2 October 2005

[edit] Guerrilla

I think "IRA guerrilla" is preferable to "IRA vounteer" or "IRA terrorist". It is descriptive, fairly neutral, and the Provisionals also call themselves "guerrillas". "Volunteer" sounds less violent, more sympathetic and almost like "activist". Which is why the IRA call themselves it Kingal86 22:28, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I think the term "Volunteer" is being misinterpreted in this circumstance.

The word itself does not impute morality to Provo provocations, but is simply a descriptive term used to reflect the organizational structure and hierarchy of the IRA.

McGuinness could have very well been a guerilla-or a terrorist, for that matter-while still maintaining his status as a "volunteer."

Ruthfulbarbarity 22:16, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I believe the modern neutral, politically correct term is "insurgent".

[edit] Active service

McGuinness seems not to have denied IRA membership. Does anyone have any idea of how much active service he saw?

Active service????

Mr. McGuinness has, in the past, stated that he was "Proud to be a member of the Provisional IRA"{sic} not sure when/where he said that but will try to find out. Im not sure if he was ever on the council or executive but he has been to almost every army general convention since 1970, excluding the ones held while he was imprisoned. He did have a "substantial" role in the #1 Derry Brigade, probably at least a battalion commandant. 195.7.34.195 13:53, 30 March 2006 (UTC) K.B.

I've just added his verbatim declaration of membership from Dublin's Special Criminal Court in 1973. El Gringo 17:56, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Martin McGuinness' birth place

For goodness sake could we please agree on the way we are going to write the name of Derry/Londonderry when referring to where the man was born. It has now been taken out altogether but is quite a necessary piece of information to include. I personally think that Derry is more suitable considering it is an article concerning a nationalist politician but if someone wants to include both I have no problem with that. It is very annoying to see an incomplete article like this just because people cannot seem to agree. --Spark13579 04:02, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

• The compromise reached some time ago on Talk:Derry was to refer to the city as "Derry" and the county as "Londonderry". Demiurge 11:06, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
• I understand that the BBC's policy when broadcasting reports concerning Derry/Londonderry is to call it Londonderry at the beginning of the report and thereafter refer to it as Derry.

[edit] Birthname

Christened James Martin McGuinness per BBC.

216.194.4.227 18:35, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Banned users can't edit Wikipedia. FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 19:05, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Politics

Why is there no mention of Martin McGuinness's politics, in terms of his broadly left-wing beliefs, instead of just speculation about his IRA past?

[edit] "Allegations of Spying" information

Why do people keep deleting this stuff? Whether it is true or not, it was still something which was controversial and therefore relevant to McGuinness' political career. If Republicans here are going to delete everything they don't like, then how is Wikipedia ever going to work? This information has sources (I mean the newspaper reports were real, I'm not commenting on the validity of the claims).

Just because something turned out not to be true, it doesn't mean we shouldn't talk about it on Wikipedia. Why not just delete the pages about the flat earth for example? Jamezcd 18:26, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Noticed this!

"14 civil rights marchers were killed by British soldiers in Derry, Ireland." How on earth is that not pushing a POV? Firstly those marchers were taking part in an illegal march, secondly there is no need to mention the soldiers are British because that's the nationality of Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom, making it British and that leads me to my 3rd point, "Derry Ireland". This incident didn't happen in Ireland it happened in the United Kingdom in Londonderry. A NPOV phrase would be "Northern Ireland" so i'm going to edit this blatant Irish nationalist massaging of words to their sick point of view. It is completely unacceptable!YourPTR! 01:14, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

All your points are incorrect with the exception of the Northern Ireland point. Also - you are displaying unprovioked outragous breaches of of WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA - please strike through those comments.--Vintagekits 01:21, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Provisional IRA activity and claims of Provisional IRA activity

Documented activity and claims of activity should not be lumped together in one section; the first is biography, the second speculation. I am bringing all the claims - at the Inquiry, on the TV and in the Dáil - down into a separate section. Scolaire (talk) 11:19, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Shouldn't the Bloody Sunday stuff be in that section? After all, it seems odd to have that McGuinness himself confirm he was second-in-command at the time of Bloody Sunday, then not deal with it in detail in that section? One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 11:42, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, maybe re-phrase the first paragraph to say simply: "He was second-in-command of the Provisional IRA in Derry in 1972, at the time of Bloody Sunday at the age of 21." That is the relevant fact. The fact that he confirmed it to the Saville Inquiry can be found in the reference. The allegations about nail-bombs etc., if they're only claims, shouldn't be in this section Scolaire (talk) 13:02, 7 April 2008 (UTC)