Talk:Martial artists in DC Comics

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This article was nominated for deletion on 24 April 2008. The result of the discussion was keep.

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Contents 1 Batman 2 Picture 3 Where's WILDCAT 4 Re-write 4.1 List Survey 5 Citation? 6 where is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brotherhood_of_the_Fist 7 Fair use rationale for Image:Detective038martialarts.jpg 8 Delete and listify

[edit] Batman

Why should Batman be listed as a retconned-in martial artist? Sure, his training from Richard Dragon and such might be retconned in, but he's been depicted as an expert in Japanese martial arts since the Golden Age.--Halloween jack 21:16, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Do you have a citation? I only have what I've got in collections, but for the first few years of his publishing history at least it seems to be all headlocks and uppercuts. I haven't found any references to him knowing any japanese martial arts from '39 through the '40s. I haven't checked the 50s, but that's still a fairly long amount of time to go without having anything like that mentioned.D1Puck1T 23:30, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm not home at the moment, so I can't list issue #s, but in my copy of the Batman Archives, Batman is shown teaching Robin throws and holds to which he refers as judo or jujitsu moves in early issues of Batman and Detective Comics.--Halloween jack 04:15, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

If you could try to find where you saw that, it would be great. I think it's fair to say that if neither Kane nor Finger was working on the story, then it wasn't the "original intent". But even then, the date and writer/artist of one of the earliest stories where his knowledge of Japanese martial artis is seen would be an excellent thing to have in the article!D1Puck1T 05:00, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I found it. In Detective Comics #36, he executes what's described as "an old jiu-jitsu trick" on a thug. (The "trick" he uses is Tomoe Nage, one of the 40 classical judo throws. The throw is also used in jiu-jitsu, but is more popular in judo, and Americans back then had little concept of the differences between judo and jiu-jitsu.) In Detective Comics #38, Robin's first appearance, Batman is shown teaching Robin boxing and Jiu-Jitsu. As near as I can tell, this makes them DC's first characters to practice Asian martial arts, although I could be wrong. It was fairly common in the early days of comics for the writer to include an offhand bit of narration saying that the badly-drawn throw or hold the hero was executing was a judo or jiujitsu move, just to give the character a touch of the exotic. After all, Asian martial arts were poorly understood by the general public at that time (and still are, in many ways). If no one objects or wants to do more research, I'll edit the article to mention the Batman/Robin info. --Halloween jack 06:41, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

To play it safe, say DC's first superhero characters to practice martial arts. I do think the emphasis on asian martial arts has shifted with Batman and Black Canary from those early tales, but the way the article currently explains it is indeed wrong. Excellent catch, I can't believe I flipped right past that when I was looking through the early volumes. I might even scan one of those panels for a page image.D1Puck1T 03:31, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Picture

Are there any covers or splash pages featuring several of DC's best or most prominent martial arts characters gathered together, that would make for a good picture to go at the top of the article? I think that would make a better "headline" image, and the picture of Batman and Robin could go in the Golden Age section, where it would be more relevant and a good illustration of how martial arts were being handled in the comics at that time.--Halloween jack 05:31, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Where's WILDCAT

Boxing, although not eastern, is a martial art. Wildcat is a prominent teacher to many DC characters and should be listed on this page. Students include Batman, Superman, Black Canaray and many more. Change to title of the article to be more define or add Wildcat (and any wrestlers ect). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.109.248.114 (talk) 04:35, 23 February 2007 (UTC).

Even if you wanted to argue that this article should only include "Eastern" martial arts, he should be included, since he's studied forms of boxing from all over the world. Even taught a korean punch to Black Canary if I remember right. Yes, he should be included. He'd probably hate to be called a martial artist though.D1Puck1T 09:51, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Who are students of the Cat? 66.109.248.114What? Cant you see the list of people he trained here? But getting back, I agree. Wildcat should be listed.

Also, why isn't Deathstroke the Terminator listed? He's another one who beat Batman (to a bloody pulp)in the City of Assassins story in the Terminator's series in the late 90s. He says that Batman's been trained to fight while he (Deathstroke) was trained to kill.

[edit] Re-write

The tensing in the article needs to be changed as it is based soley in fiction. In addition, the numerlogical listing on teachers to each student (ie Batman 3 of 8 listed) should be removed as there are constant changes and retcons to the teachers of a hero or character, and it can not be completly tracked, thus unencyclopediac. The page also seems to be eastern martial arts centered, which leaves out a wealth of martial artist (and couldn't all of the superheroes, as they're all fighters and could considered a martial artist), expanding the list may help, but were run the risk of over populating it. The narratives under the teachers seem to be Bat-universe centered, with the exception of Bronze Tiger, which leaves out years of history of Bronze Tiger and Richard Dragon (as editors we can not qualify which comic history is better or more useful than another). What would be left would merely be a list, which isn't really an article, but that's what this discussion is for to figure out how it can be reworded.66.109.248.114

[edit] List Survey

Reading the article, I find the list survey to be a bit convoluted. Where as it can't be clear, specifically in the case of Bat-man (but also in Lady Shiva, Nightwing, Bronze Tiger) that the teachers listed were exclusively those listed. By enumerating the lists of teacher/student, the article gives a false impression of the number of teachers the characters have learned from, or in contrast the number of students they have taught. Again, Bat-man and his family have taught several other students themselves, which we creasted a nearly endless list characters (should Bart Allen and Black Lightning be included, both have stated they learned from either Bat-man or Robin). Characters could be include in the text of the article rather than in such a trivial manner.

• remove and include in the text.66.109.248.114 19:06, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Citation?

This entire article lacks any citation. Not even titles and issue numbers, or collection edition info. It could also use a careful review, because right now it looks like it's just original research. ThuranX 11:45, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Really now. Anyone who reads DC religiously would know the article is true. To list citations would be VERY time consuming and expensive (as in buying the back issues for the research)

[edit] where is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brotherhood_of_the_Fist

Where is this article?? Deleted? Why? When?

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Detective038martialarts.jpg

Image:Detective038martialarts.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 13:37, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Delete and listify

I am reading thru this article, and it seems to be based primarily on orginal reasearch, strictly based in the current school/master layout, with little 3rd party, and those 3rd party being rooted in fan-site. I am currently posing that this current possibly be deleted and the page be formed as "List of DC Comics martial artist" and that the artist be listed alphabetically with a follow-up summary of there martial arts history (which could include previous teachers and or student). As a list, the article may avoid the clear critiques of orginal research and lack sources (as I don't believe there is a qualified source out there that would list the comic hereoes by their schools). -66.109.248.114 (talk) 18:53, 22 March 2008 (UTC).

I gave a suggestion back here in case you're interested. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 19:23, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't believe that it's "original research" to pool information from a number of sources. It's true that no comic specifically states that Natas trained Deathstroke and Deathstroke trained Rose Wilson. However there are books that say that Natas has trained Deathstroke, and books that show Deathstroke training Rose. Better citations are definitely needed, however. I'll work on that in a week or so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.79.27.92 (talk) 22:09, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure if this strictly a pooling of information. It appears that it a pooling and interpretion, as there is synthesis of number of teachers and schools. There is an additional problem with what is being defined as martial artists, particularly in the contexts of schools in teachers, as almost all comics characters who physically fight against their adversaries could be interpretted as martial artists or having some martial prowess. -66.109.248.114 (talk) 19:00, 24 March 2008 (UTC).