Talk:Marquis de Sade

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[edit] Overall Tone

The overall tone of this page seems to be less than professional. It's hard to say whether it's been written by a non-native English speaker, or by a young peron who lacks the ability to express her/himself well, but given the topic at hand, I think an effort should be made to "clean up" any poor grammar or unclear sentence structure. Glad to do so myself, but not really sure of the etiquette here.

[edit] Moving the page

I would like to move this page to "Marquis de Sade", which seems to be the more common way to refer to him. Any objections? AxelBoldt 00:24 Dec 7, 2002 (UTC)

None, go ahead and move the old perv. -- Anon.


Horrid, horrid comments. Disregarding this unprovoked vomit, the article would be bettered by a more impartial and cognizant appreciation of Sade's biography (re: his alleged abuse) and also some basic consideration of his texts.

[edit] a bit partial

I'm a bit amazed that so much space is given to a few rumors about his life, and so little said about his work. I don't think that De Sade is more famous for some crime -if he ever committed any, as there is no solid allegation of it- than for his books...
If some people are interested in his work, it is not the purpose of a serious encyclopedia to prevent them of reading it. You may warn them of the explicit sexual descriptions, not invent the content of books you obviously haven't read... Let people make their own judgement!
Ju.

Sounds worthy of an NPOV flag to me -- Jmabel 20:38, 5 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Not for me, so I have removed it. The introductory paragraph clearly and IMHO correctly states what de Sade is famous for: his books. Then it goes on to describe his life and work, with roughly 40% of the article devoted to his work. If you find the description of his life or work inaccurate, please go ahead and improve them. In particular, I can't find any invented content of his books in the article, but if you do, just correct it and explain it here. AxelBoldt 16:42, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)


[edit] And probably inaccurate

The factual accuracy of the Marquis de Sade article is disputed. I seriously doubt the story about the Marquis de Sade related to the storming of the Bastille. A different variant of it (which I also doubt) is in the article Bastille. I strongly believe he had been transferred to Charenton well before the storming of the Bastille, but I don't have a source to quote, just a reasonable knowledge of his life. It would be good if someone would sort this out. -- Jmabel 20:38, 5 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Encyclopedia Britannica writes:

A few days before the French Revolutionaries stormed the Bastille on July 14, 1789, de Sade had shouted through a window, “They are massacring the prisoners; you must come and free them.” He was transferred to the insane asylum at Charenton, where he remained until April 2, 1790.

It is my understanding that at the day of the storming of the Bastille, de Sade was not there anymore; he had already been transferred. If you know of a contradicting source, then please add it to the article; I don't think that your personal doubts are sufficient for a "factual accuracy is disputed" disclaimer. AxelBoldt 16:42, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)

The "a few days before" seems much likelier than the implication in the text that this was an immediately precipitating incident. And the article in Bastille clearly implies that he was one of the prisoners on July 14, which Britannica explicitly contradicts. I'm happy to clear this up by going more clearly with Britannica's version of events. Axel, is this OK with you, too? -- Jmabel 23:25, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Certainly. There are various versions of the events floating around on the internet, but from reading a biography of de Sade (forgot the title) and from the Encyclopedia Britannica, I think the following is the most likely course of events: de Sade shouts a few days before the storming of the Bastille, then he is moved to Charenton, then the Bastille is stormed. This link confirms this history: http://www.monsieurlesix.be/history/briefaccount6.html and it gives July 2nd as the date, which seems plausible. I'll edit our article accordingly and I'll do the same over at Bastille. AxelBoldt 16:56, 10 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I wish I could've helped, but I was sleeping on the other side of the city when all of this is supposed to have happened. - Sigg3.net 09:37, 12 May 2004 (UTC)

From Sade, à biography by Jean-Paul Brighelli & from Vie du marquis de sade by Gilbert Lely (in french) :

  • Sade arrive form the Fort de Vincennes at the Bastille in september 1788 by his demand (the Bastille was more "confortable").
  • The 2 Juillet 1789 using a tinplate pipe he shout against the governor and said than prisoners are killed into the Bastille (that was fasle).
  • In reason of this fact he was transfered during the 4 to the asilum of Charenton
  • The 14 the Bastille is taken and all is 600 books library is dispersed as well as lot of his manuscripts including the 120 journey one.
  • He was libarated from Charenton because to be a Lettre de cachets prisoner the 2 april 1790.

fr:Utilisateur:Miniwark 15:29, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] From the Encyclopedia Britannica 1911

http://73.1911encyclopedia.org/S/SA/SADE_DONATIEN_ALPHONSE_FRANCOIS_COUNT.htm

SADE, DONATIEN ALPHONSE FRANC.OIS, COUNT [usually called the MARQUIS DE SADE] (1740-1814), French licentious writer, was born in Paris on the 2nd of June 1740. He entered the light-horse at fourteen and saw considerable military service before returning to Paris in 1766. Here his vicious practices became notorious, and in 1772 he was condemned to death at Aix for an unnatural offence, and for poisoning. He fled to Italy, but in 1777 he was arrested in Paris, removed to Aix for trial, and there found guilty. In 1778 he escaped from prison, but was soon re-arrested and finally committed to the Bastille. Here he began to write plays and obscene novels. In 1789 h was removed to the Charenton Lunatic Asylum, but was discharged in 1790, only to be recommitted as incurable in 1803. He died there on the 2nd of December 1814. Among his works, all of the type indicated, were Justine (1791), Juliette (1792), Philosophic dans le boudoir (1793) and Les Crimes de I'amour (1800). The word Sadism, meaning a form of sexual perversion, is derived from his name.

Maybe we should add this to the article? Sigg3.net
Well, the "licentious" and "obscene" and "perversion" is very 1911 Britain, isn't it, only relevant to quote to indicate a 1911 British critical POV (imaginably relevant, if described as such). Other than that, if there are any facts in the EB version that are missing from the article, yes they would be relevant to add. -- Jmabel 00:07, 28 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Name

An anon recently changed the name at the beginning of the article, changing "Donatien-Alphonse-François De Sade" to "Donatien-Alphonse-François, Comte De Sade". (Well, actually, they also messed up the capitalization, but I fixed that.) I don't know enough about French noble titles to know if this is an improvement or is plain wrong, but I find it surprising. Why would a marquis be "Comte de Sade"? I would guess that he should either be named as "Donatien-Alphonse-François De Sade" or "Donatien-Alphonse-François, Marquis De Sade".

Although he is commonly referred to as the Marquis de Sade, he in fact assumed the title of Comte De Sade upon his father's death. Marquis in this instance being an honorific afforded to the eldest sons of counts. The correct orthographic practice in French, moreover, with reference to his name, as it is hyphenated, is to write only Donatien with a capital letter: the initial characters of subsequent names to be written in lower case: thus his full, official title is "Donatien-alphonse-françois, Comte De Sade".

I've never seen this capitalization practice anywhere (on this or any other similar French name) and none of the first 40 Google hits fail to use capitals (they vary on the hyphens). Can someone with a knowledge of French and a willingness to use a user-name rather than an IP address please weigh in? I'm really hesitant to take the word of someone who could so easily be trolling. -- Jmabel 00:16, Jun 25, 2004 (UTC)

The Encyclopædia Britannica's article on the Marquis de Sade has `Marquis de Sade

born June 2, 1740, Paris, France died Dec. 2, 1814, Charenton, near Paris byname of "Donatien-alphonse-françois, Comte De Sade". If I find out how to use a user-name I'll gladly use it instead of my IP.

You can make a user name by clicking on "log in" in the upper right corner of your screen and filling in the blanks. And then you can sign using 4 tildes ~~~~ that will be converted to your signature and timestamp when the page is saved.
I do not think your suggestion is the common French usage; our colleagues at the French Wikipedia have their article at Donatien Alphonse François de Sade. The "de" should of course be uncapitalized: the hyphens are usually dropped in English. - Nunh-huh 00:30, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Thank you. I can find no particular consensus on the issue; the Encyclopædia Britannica's article was written by a French scholar, but I suppose it's perfectly possible that it's a simple typographical error; or perhaps a vagary of eighteenth century French. If it is indeed English practice to write his forenames separately, I suggest we do that, without the hyphens, thus obviating any discussion of the correctness of capitalizing each individual part. The form of his name, however, I believe is right, viz., Donatien Alphonse François, Comte de Sade; although `Sade' is often placed first, as is needful in an alphabetized reference.
Don't forget you can "sign" with the tildes for that added touch of class<g>. I think you are right that the style with no caps is an old one and out of fashion: I regularly encounter people whose prenoms are hyphenated and capitalized. As for last-name-first, or titles-first, it's pretty well established that the article names at Wikipedia are in natural order: redirectes could be made for any variants that might be common, such as de Sade, Donatien Alphonse François, de Sade, Donatien-Alphonse-François, de Sade, Donatien-alphonse-françois etc. -- Nunh-huh 00:51, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)
  • i belive that he was born as Donatien Alphonse-Francois de Sade and that his father was Comte de Sade , perhaps he took the name up at his fathers death but none the less he was born under Donatien Alphonse-Francois de Sade . this link might clear it up (im not certain but i hope this helps) http://www.nndb.com/people/912/000031819/*

D. A. F. de Sade took the title "Marquis" upon his father's death because his grandfather had called himself "Marquis" and he'd gotten it into his head that the title should alternate between "Comte" and "Marquis" perhaps to avoid confusion as to who was whom.BrianGCrawfordMA 02:57, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "bisexual"?

Recently categorized under "Gay, Lesbian or Bisexual people". Besides the fact that this category as such makes me a little nervous, I'm not at all sure it is appropriate. I realize de Sade did sadistic (duh!) things to males, but I'm unaware of him having sex with them. As far as I know, in sexuality as such he was pretty hetero. The article doesn't contain anything particularly to the contrary. Is there some basis for the claim? -- Jmabel 20:24, Aug 13, 2004 (UTC)

There's no evidence whatsoever that he tortured men.BrianGCrawfordMA 02:57, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

He was listed at List of famous gay, lesbian, or bisexual people, so I made the bot add him to the category. I have no opinion on his sexual orientation, but if you remove the category, also remove him from the list. Guanaco 20:40, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)
After being deleted, this has recently been re-added. My previous remark stands, but I'm not expert on (or particularly interested in) whether the Marquis fucked men. Frankly, I object to this Wikipedia category insofar as it is applied to anyone who was not famously Gay, Lesbian or Bisexual, but I'm not going to waste my time fighting over it. -- Jmabel | Talk 20:47, Jan 23, 2005 (UTC)

Yes, the Marquis de Sade was definitely bisexual by any definition. He liked to be sodomized by his valet. Check Neil Schaeffer's biography.BrianGCrawfordMA 02:57, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

It is also known Sade enjoyed to insert various objects up his rectum. It was actually one of his main occupations while in prison. Nicolasgasne 19:22, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I have no idea if the foregoing is true (seems perfectly likely) but it has nothing to do with sexual orientation. - Jmabel | Talk 01:06, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Sade himself has been cited as saying that he had imagined whatever was imaginable, but had accomplished far less in reality. In many instances de Sade is seen as a philosopher and a moralist, taking and impartial view to the "worst" of human desires. Just because he doesn't immediately denounce the scenes he depicts doesn't mean he endorces them. Unfortunately, beyond his literary works, much of what is said of him is based on rumour and speculation. Personally, I'd feel more comfortable with tagging him as "bi-curious" if such labels must be applied, since he was intrigued by all things sexual, but there is no definitive claim as to his true sexuality. 193.1.172.104 14:45, 26 April 2007 (UTC)Suzie

It seems Sade, while in jail, tried to seduce a young man who was either a fellow offender or part of the security guard of the prison. And I know one of his male employees, when asked by Sade, used to sodomize him when he took part in Sade's orgies and he was equally persecuted by the French justice because of 'sexual deviancy.' Some of Sade's works also show an aesthetical or maybe sexual appreciation of the male body, sometimes over the female body: in Juliette, it is said that the female body is just an "extraordinarily degraded form" of the male one. And Dolmancé, who sometimes is considered a personification of Sade himself, is portrayed as preferencially homosexual. I know that none of these facts prove either the homosexuality or the bisexuality of Sade, but, given that Sade was so prone to various kinds of sexual experimentation, it is difficult to define which was his main orientation.201.50.174.53 22:50, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Comte

The following two edits were made recently, anonymously and without citation. I'm not fully up on the use of French titles, so someone else should either confirm of revert.

  • "Donatien Alphonse François, Comte de Sade, better known as..." (strikethrough indicates deletion)
  • "Sade was born in the Condé palace in Paris fathered by Comte de Sade (d. Jan-1767)." (bold indicates insertion)

Jmabel | Talk 18:58, Dec 22, 2004 (UTC)

See [1], the anon has commented on this on the talk page. --Conti|✉ 19:15, Dec 22, 2004 (UTC)


for the name Comte de Sade: de is ALWAYS lower case. You would translate it in English by "of". When someone received a title by the king and a land, he usually received the title and the land name. For example: John Smith gets the title of Count for Washington. His new name would be "Count John Smith of Washington" or "John Smith, Count of Washington"... most people dropped their last name, so they would call themselves : "Count John of Washington". But the "de" is always lower case. Also, when you refer to them by their last name, you never mention the "de" (of), unless their last name starts with a vowel... so in our example, you would say something like: "John Smith of Washington is coming for dinner tonight with his family" OR "The "Washington" are coming over tonight". You wouldn't say "The "de Washington" are coming over tonight".

About Comte or Marquis: I have checked the little book "Noblesse 2001" from Nicolas Guerre which lists all current true nobles in France. That family is not named in it... which means: either it is a extinct family, either they couldn't prove their noblety. I have also checked the "Bottin Mondain 2002" (sorry, don't have the latest ones): There are 3 families listed in it. ALL three have the title "Count"/Comte... but I can't really tell if they are related in any way to our "Comte/Marquis de Sade". Often, because in France, ONLY the oldest son will wear the "title" after the death of his father (except for the title of "Comte"... the oldest son is "Vicomte" once he his born, and will switch to "Comte" after the death of his father.). (The only exception to the oldest son getting the title is for the title of "Duc/Duchesse", but ONLY Royal family children are allowed to wear that title, and all children will wear it...

But for Comte/Marquis de Sade: What happens often in families, is that the brothers are a bit "jealous" of the title wore by the oldest son... so they take a "honorary title" for themselves. And often, they'll choose something different. That may have been the case here. Not sure... Someone would need to research that. But the rule is : A dog doesn't make a cat... A Comte doesn't make a Marquis as his son... so if you have various titles in the same family, most likely these are "honorary" titles to make the other kids feel better...

Hope this helps a bit. (I'm not an expert, but my family (on my mother's side) is from higher noblety in France, so I've got a little knowledge about it).

The French nobility and the Peerage of France were different institutions. A peer would usually be a noble, but many nobles were not peers, and a title such as "comte" in the peerage was rarer and more esteemed than the same title in the nobility. I have read (and I'm sorry, I do not recall where) that de Sade was by inheritance a marquess in the nobility; and that some time after inheriting his title, he was appointed to the rank of count in the peerage. This may account for some of the "Comte or Marquis" confusion. Maproom (talk) 13:40, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Charenton

A recent uncommented anon change modified [[Charenton-le-Pont|Charenton]] to Charenton-Saint-Maurice (now Saint-Maurice, Val-de-Marne). I have no idea which is accurate, but certainly whichever it is it should be linked. -- Jmabel | Talk 18:13, Jan 22, 2005 (UTC)

The anon edit seems correct. From [2], [3], [4] and [5] the following story emerges: Charenton-le-Pont and Charenton-Saint-Maurice are neighboring parishes; the latter, which changed its name to "Saint Maurice" in 1842, has the asylum. The asylum is nowadays often simply called "Charenton". I'll edit the Charenton and Charenton-le-Pont entries accordingly. AxelBoldt 21:27, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Yes, the Maison royale de Charenton was at Charenton-Saint-Maurice (Saint-Maurice, Val-de-Marne) not at Charenton-le-Pont. The Asylum is now called Hopital Esquirol (see Charenton (asylum)). I correct accordignly Charenton-le-Pont to Charenton-Saint-Maurice. fr:Utilisateur:Miniwark02:52, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Other books?

I notice theres a list of movies about marquis de sade, but not a list of his books, I recently picked up a copy of "the mystifieed magistrate and other tales" by marquess de sade. However, many of these stories are given no refference. Perhaps they should be added for possible future articles at least. Jaynus _Izanagi 19:52, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

  • If you have material to add to the article, feel free. I would say this article still needs a lot of additions. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:06, Jun 1, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] pun?

"…Sade's most seminal contribution to art…" -- Jmabel | Talk 00:36, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)

Kekeke 75.24.213.105 06:36, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Verbosity and moralism

The quote below was tacked on at the end of the "Literary works" section. The original author should, by all means, try to revise this. I suggest incorporating it into the preceding passage, rather than by presenting a veiled personal opinion after the fact.

What, for instance, is "heathenistic promulgations"? Why may we "assume much of what Sade wrote to be lived vicariously..."? How, furthermore, is any of this clarified by the empty closing pronouncement "nothing can defeat nature but god is worthy of overthrowing"? This is a lot of cobbled-together nonsense. Let's have less of the non sequitur, and more argument and scholarly citation. Sade offers lots of opportunity for depth, but here I see only sophomoric moralism and big words.

Strunk and White, or Plain Words, by Sir Ernest Gowers, are good correctives for flowery language.

Such is the reoccurence of heathenistic promulgations, we may assume much of what Sade wrote to be lived vicariously, through Juliette, The Bishop of ________ , and others, however he argues that nothing can defeat nature but god is worthy of overthrowing.

Vorpal Suds 1 July 2005 10:45 (UTC)

[edit] Lost in translation?

Just curious... when Wikipedia has such complete knowledge and links thereof for most authors, why has it only got a few incomplete links to works of the Marquis de Sade... and not in English? Anyone know where and/or how we could get links to de Sade in English? --WAS 02:06, 9 August 2005 (UTC).

I'm not sure of all the answers to this, but one reason is that most of the old translations suck, and the good modern translations are still under copyright restrictions. --Apyule 04:41, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

Ah... well, I guess that's too bad. But aren't there bound to be, when you think about it (considering the, uh, popular nature of de Sade's works), a few (hundred) sites which don't really care about copyright violations? I mean, just showing a link isn't actually incriminating for whoever put it there, now is it?... of course, I'm just playing devil's advocate (as usual)... not like anyone might actually do anything like what I'm am very thinly hinting at here... WAS 05:31, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

I have no problem at all with posting links. I'll have a look after work sometime. --Apyule 06:14, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] is this true or just a historical legend?

I've heard more than once that the Marquis mother was a nun.

any truth to it? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 132.241.245.49 (talk • contribs) 23 Sept 2005.

His mother moved into a convent while her husband was still alive, but she did not take holy orders. BrianGCrawfordMA 03:00, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Belladonna

Recent addition: "including poisoning partygoers with belladonna, which he had heard was an aphrodisiac". Has someone got a citation for this? For one thing, I doubt he'd just "heard" it was an aphrodisiac, the belief was widespread at the time. In small enough doses, it's supposed to be an "interesting" drug, but, of course, the problem is that it's one of the things where a recreational dose is awfully close to a lethal dose. But if he actually killed someone trying that, it should be easy to document and cite. --- Jmabel | Talk 03:46, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Belladona is most definitely not an "interesting" drug unless you think it's interesting to be unable to sweat or salivate. I took it for irritable bowel syndrome, and it has very unpleasant side effects. I've read two biographies of Sade, and nowhere have I found that he poisoned anybody with belladonna. BrianGCrawfordMA 03:00, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

The "poisoning" was beacuse the use of Spanish fly powder who supose tu be an aphrodisiac but who can cause death too. fr:Utilisateur:Miniwark 04:48, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

No evidence has ever been brought that Sade ever killed anyone. The only persons that were "poisoned" threw up after eating those candies.Nicolasgasne 19:19, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Obese leftist non sequitur

"By now extremely obese, he was even elected to the National Convention, where he represented the far left."

I don't understand why these two parts belong in one sentence (makes it sound he was elected *because* he was obese)...one idea per sentence... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Houarno (talk • contribs) 9 Dec 2005.

feel free to edit accordingly -- Jmabel | Talk 19:15, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Nietzsche

I removed this:

Most obvious is his towering influence over Nietzsche. Everywhere we look in Sade's body of work, we find fascinating pre-echoes of supposedly Nietzschean philosophies; Sade's (relatively) famous A Dialogue Between A Priest And A Dying Man, for instance.

Do we have any reference for the claim that Nietzsche was influenced by (or even read) Sade? AxelBoldt 05:08, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, we do. In Jean Paulhan's essay, he cites the intellectuals who have declared Justine to be "favorite reading--at least during a certain period of their lives--with Lamartine, Baudelaire, and Swinburne, with Barbey d'Aurevilly and Lautreamont, with Nietzsche, Dostoevski, and Kafka (or, on a slightly different plane, with Ewerz, Sacher-Masoch, and Mirbeau) 70.248.223.52 06:04, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Skull

There is no "Guttering Museum of Natural History in New York. The Skull story is a hoax. I'm going to remove it.

There has been some philology about the study of his skull. I have heard that it had some grump on it, which maybe relates to his character. I thikn we should add more about it Pictureuploader 07:07, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

This sounds a bit like Phrenology to me. Hard to think how any "grump" on the bone could related to character.

that was mentioned on the History Channel special on him, it supposedly took place but not in New York. I can check it out —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.78.120.202 (talk) 03:47, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Missing time

I would like to see another section with a list of his books he wrote and the time he wrote them. As for now, I have :

Dialogue entre un Prêtre et un Moribond (known in english as Dialogue Between a Priest and a Dying Man), (1782)
Les infortunes de la vertu (1787)
Les 120 journées de Sodome (known in english as The 120 Days of Sodom), (1789)
Justine (1791)
Juliette (1792)
La Philolosophie dans le Boudoir (known in english as Philosophy in the Bedroom), (1795)

The dates might not be precise but almost. I might also be missing some books

There is also "Historiettes, Contes et Fabliaux" which means something like "Small stories". Here is the list below, I guess he wrote them in prison when he was first arrested, around 1777 to 1789, but that's just my guess.

Attrapez-moi toujours de même
Augustine de villeblanche ou Le stratagème de l'amour
Aventure incompréhensible et attestée par toute une province
Dorci ou La bizarrerie du sort
Il y a place pour deux
L'heureuse feinte
L'instituteur philosophe
L'époux complaisant
L'époux corrigé
L'évêque embourbé
La Marquise de Telême ou Les effets du libertinage
La châtelaine de Longeville ou La femme vengée
La fleur de chataingnier
La prude ou La rencontre imprévue
La saillie gasconne
Le M... puni
Le cocu de lui-même ou Le raccomedement imprévu
Le mari prêtre
Le président mystifié
Le revenant
Le serpent
Le talion
Les filous
Les harangueurs provençaux
Soit fait ainsi qu'il est requis
Émilie de Tourville ou La cruauté fraternelle

Anyone could help ?

--Zurd 23:01, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

All the books you mention, and several others, are already listed in the article, under "Literary Works", complete with the date they were written. AxelBoldt 06:24, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Protruding crump"

What is a "protruding crump" and do we have a reference for the fact that one was found on his skull? AxelBoldt 16:30, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Voyage d'Italie"

Why isn't there any mention of his travelogue through Italy? This was Sade's first book, written c.1773. He commissioned drawings for his book. It's a first hand account of what he saw while travelling. This book is really long (like his novels) although it has never been published in english. Adding it here would be nice because it shows that Sade was actually doing something during his self-exile in Italy. But I am not a Sade scholar and cannot give accurate historical context about this book.

Thanks, I mentioned it. AxelBoldt 03:59, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Grounds for marquis, comte

Copied from NC titles talkpage:

...."Also concerning another point that exists for monarchs already 4. If a person is overwhelmingly best known by a cognomen, or by a name that doesn't fit the guidelines above, revert to the base rule: use the most common English name. Examples: Alfred the Great, Charlemagne, Louis the Pious, Henry the Lion, etc...".

To that I would like to formulate the same thing for nobility, for example Marquis de Sade ... as exceptions. Gryffindor 16:45, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
In my opinion, exceptional names are allowed to be used only if that is really really overwhelmingly best known. We would not want countings and recountings of google hits, if difference is only one or some orders of magnitude. Such exception is George Sand.... Shilkanni 23:12, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the particularity of Sade, in case he really was Marquis, he does not deserve an exception, as the format "Jabba-Jabba, Marquess of Sade" would be quite good. However, I received information that in fact he was not a marquis in real life, but comte de Sade. In that pretension (or suchlike) case, as he is overwhelmingly known as marquis de Sade, it must be regarded as his pen name and be treated as George Sand is treated. These facts should be checked, preferably by opening a discussion in the article's talk page. It's not a proper place to make individualized decision regarding his article here. The principle stands and can be discussed here. Shilkanni 10:31, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
Ok, but about the Marquis de Sade case, apparently his grandfather was the marquis, and in the French version they talk about something how as the eldest son he took the marquis title? didn't quite understand that part, but it does seem to have been part of his family, not just something that he made up. ... Gryffindor 14:45, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
I believe in the French system, the older son takes a title one grade lower than his father. Or maybe even every member of the house except for the head does that... There is a newsgroup called alt.talk.royalty that has lots of info on it. ... Charles 15:30, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
I read French, also. However, the facts seem to be that Sade was son of Count of Sade and succeeded him as count. His maternal grandfather indeed was marquess, but Sade did not presumably succeed him (it would be somewhat unusual, as the title would be inherited by males of his mother's lineage and usually not by his mother's descendants) - thus the grandfather is not a good explanation as source of marquessate. Besides, then he would have not been marquis de Sade, it would have been marquis de Carman. I did not find anything proper to show that Sade's own (agnatic) family had held any marquessate - and if so, why was his father called not a marquess, but a comte instead - you know, highest title is used in French noblesse, not usually secondary. Besides, certain info about Sade's own publications tell that at least one of HIS was titled "...tales of Comte de Sade", not marquis de Sade. Marquis was a higher title of nobility in France too. It would never have taken place that a count's eldest son would have held a marquis-title as a courtesy - the situation would have been reverse. Re family members generally using a lower title as courtesy, it is true at least with French dukedoms - Duc d'Harcourt's younger sons were "comte d'Harcourt"s as courtesy. But a comte's (substantive comte's, not courtesy comte's) heir would have been vicomte, not marquis. The facts suggest that he actually was comte, but for reason or another he used sometimes marquis - and that stuck for literary fame. Shilkanni 18:29, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
  • This family alternated use of the titles marquis and comte, yet appears to have been entitled to neither legally. This was not a faux pas that Wiki needs to set right in the interests of history (as it would be had Sade belonged to the British aristocracy where titles, both legal and by courtesy, are governed by strict rules, so that a breach constitutes usurpation, fraud and scandal). French titres de courtoisie were and are much more flexible, and the Sades' usage falls well within the norm.
  • Gilbert Lêly's Vie du Marquis de Sade (English translation by Alec Brown, published as "The Marquis de Sade: A Biography" 1961) details the many properties, positions, names, income and titles of the family in precise detail from its twelfth century origin to the current Count Xavier de Sade. But when it comes to their noble title, he writes only "It was Gaspard François de Sade, the eldest son of Côme, who was the first of this family to bear the title of Marquis. He was occasionally referred to as the Marquis de Sade, but more often documents refer to him as the Marquis de Mazan. This is the title we find in his marriage contract, in his will and in the Bull of Pope Innocent XII of April 3rd, 1693 giving him the office for life of Colonel of the light cavalry of the Comtat." Conspicuously absent is any reference to Sade's lands being erected into a marquisate for him or his ancestors, or an act of registration of the title of marquis (or count) by the parlement of Provence. Both of these certifications would have been necessary for any legitimate title of nobility to descend legally. The fact that the family indifferently used marquis and count simply reflects the social reality that the Sades were noblesse chevaleresque, that is, of such ancient nobility that they had no known non-noble ancestors. Given the loftiness of their ancestry, the assumption of a noble title, absent a grant from the King, was de rigueur.
  • Two clarifications are warranted however, because several editors on this page still tend to treat Sade's title as if it followed British rules. First, they are puzzled by the alternation between titles, because no English peer or his successors, having attained the rank of "marquess", would have suffered themselves to be styled "earl". But in France, the hierarchy of titles below the rank of duke was notional; it neither carried the privilege of peerage that made most ducal titleholders members of the Parlement of Paris, nor did it determine precedence at court, which was based upon seniority of the family's nobility rather than upon any (sub-ducal) title the family might possess. Thus it was largely a matter of aesthetic preference and chutzpah whether an aristocrat used the title of marquis, comte, vicomte or baron -- he was equally entitled to adopt any, and had a legal right to none. Second, Donatien assumed the title of marquis during his father's lifetime because, in accordance with the above, he never "succeeded" to that title at all, but simply arrogated it. This, too, was customary given his family's high rank.Lethiere 00:53, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
    • This is very useful. Is there an article where we explain this? - Jmabel | Talk 00:50, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Censorship

As a note, the work 120 Days of Sodom is censored (as a book) in New Zealand (per the New Zealand Office of Film and Literature Classification and apparently is banned in many other countries. Perhaps this should be mentioned somewhere on the page? (I'm not sure where to find a list of countries that've banned the text). --Liamf 06:51, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] licentiousness

"His is a philosophy of extreme freedom (or at least licentiousness), unrestrained by ethics, religion or law, with the pursuit of personal pleasure being the highest principle." I added the note on licentiousness as, arguably, Sade's philosophy does not actually grant freedom but only licence. --Whitespace 21:02, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mazan and the Marquis

There has been little or no mention of the Marquis and his long family history based in Mazan, where it is known that his family had a castle and more recently (around the 1700's ) a chateau. There seems to be some confusion about the family residence in La Coste and that of the Chateau de Mazan. Did the Marquis introduce his theatre events in Mazan or Lacoste? Since his family clearly originated in Mazan it is surprising that so little is written of his sojourn there with his uncle the Abbe and his time spent at the Chateau during his exile. Can someone fill in the missing history? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mazanais (talk • contribs) 8 August 2006.

[edit] Contemporary bans

In "Scandals and Imprisonment", it is stated that Justine and Les Prospérités du Vice are still banned in France. I just bought a copy of the latter yesterday, editted by the French 10-18 (http://www.10-18.fr/10_18/index.htm) from a used book store in Chinon, the Loire valley. The books are most assuredly not banned.

[edit] Scandals and imprisonment section

This section is a bit unclear. First off, are Lacoste and La Coste two different places? If they are, I'd feel a bit better if the article clarified it. Another issue is the slightly confusing chronology. For example, at one point it says "His mother-in-law obtained a lettre de cachet...and he was committed to the Bastille. During this imprisonment...", but then it seems to imply that he went on to other places without explaining how or why (or if) he escaped. 24.126.199.129 05:11, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Lacoste/ La Coste: presumably the same, does anyone know if one form is more correct?
On the rest, I have no clue. - Jmabel | Talk 16:52, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
This is the correct one: Lacoste, Vaucluse. The other things in the scandals section have been clarified in the meantime. AxelBoldt 19:32, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Authorship

Isn't there a question of authorship for a number of his works? I don't see much mention of that in this article. 24.126.199.129 07:12, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

That's interesting. I'm not aware of that, but references to the controversy would certainly be appreciated. AxelBoldt 19:28, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Convictions

Why was "he was never convicted of any crime" turned into "he was never technically convicted of any crime"? How is one non-technically convicted? - Jmabel | Talk 04:43, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Three days, no response, reverting. - Jmabel | Talk 02:12, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

He was officially under the jurisdiction of the king, due to the letter-de-cachet, and as such, was not answerable to crimes in the regular court system. Thus, the convictions he received in the regular court system were, technically, invalid. Although, I don't care for the word "technically". Ideas, anyone?

[edit] Isn't this page a little . . .

. . . more hostile than it should be? I'm not saying it shouldn't be hostile to certain acts, but it seems to be hostile even to homosexuality. I think homosexuality is one of the things wikipedia is supposed to be neutral on . . .

Oh, by the way, if you know how to get rid of that annoying box thing on my comment, please do so. Thank you.Done —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 204.95.23.122 (talk • contribs) 04:33, 3 December 2006 (UTC).

This page is extremely hostile, and terribly factually incorrect.

  • Several "facts" are entirely incorrect, others are dubious at best
  • The descriptions of Sade's life and scandals are not only factually incorrect but not at all neutral
  • The citations are rare, few and far between
  • The writing itself is poor, and there are many misspellings, naming errors, and irrelevant statements.

I'd rewrite the entire article if I had the time -- perhaps I'll find the time at some point. This article definitely needs work.

In the spirit of sanity and humanity, my suggestion would be to have this sick man and the entire body of his work obliterated from history.
99.249.100.219 04:37, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
A book-burning, a book-burning! Quick, mother, gather the folios in our arms! Oh, the joy, the thrills, the unbounded, sadistic pleasure! DionysosProteus 13:25, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Sadistic pleasure? Was that intentional? Cryo921 (talk) 21:42, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Sex without pain..." quote

Can anyone reference the "Sex without pain is like food without taste." quote? Perhaps I'm not looking hard enough but I cannot find an original writing of it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.120.188.41 (talk • contribs) 4 January 2007.

I think it's in Justine; one of the monks who has imprisoned her in the monastery has a long speech justifying his sexual practices to her. I'm not completely sure though.

[edit] Etymology of the term Sadism

I've deleted the citation needed tag for the etymology of the term sadism. It's in the Shorter Oxford Dictionary (1973) which adds that word 'sadism' was first used in 1888 and means 'a form of sexual perversion marked by a love of cruelty'. Natalie West 11:28, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] External links

None of the external links work apart from the internet movie base, but I am reluctant to delete them until someone else has checked. Natalie West 11:50, 1 July 2007 (UTC) Realised that anon vandal changed thm all, so I've restored them. Natalie West 12:44, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Why is this still flagged?

So many of these questions have been resolved, and were from years ago....in recent events, little has been questioned at all. Just how much does a page have to be clarified and professionalized to remove the tags all over it?? Lesomers 03:28, 26 September 2007 (UTC)lesomers September 25, 2007

[edit] List of Works

I think this section needs expanding greatly. It also needs to be categorized more than just between fiction and non-fiction. I've prepared a more comprehensive list of Sade's own work (as opposed to works about him). I based it on the bibliography found in the Grove Press edition of 120 Days of Sodom and Other Writings as well as Simone de Beauvoir's essay. So it is not complete and considering I don't understand French I may have made some mistakes in listing the works down in their proper categories. Feel free to edit them and rearrange them accordingly. Preferably chronologically. If anyone knows the dates the works were published, it would be a big help.

-Red marquis 13:32, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] His Works:

[edit] Novels/Novellas/Tales:

  • Justine, Les Infortunes de la Vertu (ou les Malheurs de la Vertu, or Good Conduct Well-Chastised)
  • Juliette, or Vice Amply Rewarded (l'Histoire de Juliette, sa soeur [ou les Prosperites du vice])
  • The 120 Days of Sodom, or the School of Freedoms (Les 120 Journees de Sodome, ou l'Ecole de libertinage)
  • Incest (Hesperus Classics)
  • The Crimes of Love (Les Crimes de l'Amour, Nouvelles heroiques et tragiques
    • Vol. I
      • Juliette et Raunai, ou la Conspiration d'Amboise, nouvelle historique
      • La Double Epreuve
    • Vol. II
      • Miss Henriette Stralson, ou les Effets du desespoir, nouvelle anglaise
      • Faxelange, ou les Torts de l'ambition
      • Florville and Courval, or The Works of Fate (Florville et Courval, ou le Fatalisme)
    • Vol. III
      • Rodrigue, ou la Tour enchantee, conte allegorique
      • Laurence and Antonio, An Italian Tale (Laurence et Antonio, nouvelle italienne)
      • Ernestine, A Swedish Tale (Ernestine, nouvelle suedoise)
    • Vol. IV
      • Dorgeville, ou le Criminel par Vertu
      • La Comtesse de Sancerre, ou la Rivale de sa fille, anecdote de la Cour de Bourgogne
      • Eugenie de Franval
  • Voyage d'Italie
  • Le Portefeuille d'un homme de lettres (Destroyed / Lost)
  • OEuvres diverses (1764 - 1869)
    • Le Philosophe soi-disant
    • Voyage de Hollande
  • La Marquise de Gange (1813)
  • Contes et Fabliaux du XVIII siecle, par troubadour provencal
    • Historiettes
      • Le Serpent
      • La Saillie gasconne
      • L'Heureuse Feinte
      • Le M... puni
      • L'Eveque embourbe
      • Le Revenant
      • Les Harangueurs provencaux
      • Attrapez-moi toujours de meme
      • L'Epoux complaisant
      • Aventure incomprehensible
      • La Fleur de chataignier
    • Contes et Fabliaux
      • L'Instituteur philosophe
      • La Prude, ou la Rencontre imprevue
      • Emilie de Tourville, ou la Cruaute fraternelle
      • Augustine de Villeblanche, ou le Stratageme de l'amour
      • Soit fait ainsi qu'il est requis
      • Le President mystifie
      • La Marquise de Theleme, ou les Effets du libertinage (Destroyed / Lost)
      • Le Talion
      • Le Cocu de lui-meme, ou les Raccommodement imprevu
      • Il y a place pour deux
      • L'Epoux corrige
      • Le Mari pretre, conte provencal
      • La Chatelaine de Longueville, ou la Femme vengee
      • Le Filous
    • Appendice
      • Les Dangers de la bienfaisance
  • Aline et Valcour, ou le Roman philosophique (1795)
  • Adelaide de Brunswick, princesse de Saxe
  • Les Journees de Florbelle, ou la Nature devoilee, suivies des Memoires de l'abbe de Modose et des Adventures d'Emilie de Volnange servant de preuves aux assertions (Destroyed / Lost)
    • Les Converations du chateau de Charmelle (First Draft of Les Journees Florbelle, Destroyed / Lost)
  • Les Delassements du libertin, ou la Neuvaine de Cythere (Destroyed / Lost)
  • La Fine Mouche (Destroyed / Lost)
  • L'Heureux Echange (Destroyed / Lost)
  • Les Inconvenients de la pitie (Destroyed / Lost)
  • Les Reliques (Destroyed / Lost)
  • Le Cure de Prato (Destroyed / Lost)
  • Histoire secrete d'Isabelle de Baviere, reine de France (1953)

[edit] Historiettes:

  • La Liste du Suisse (Destroyed / Lost)
  • La Messe trop chere (Destroyed / Lost)
  • L'Honnete Ivrogne (Destroyed / Lost)
  • N'y allez jamais sans lumiere (Destroyed / Lost)
  • La justice venitienne (Destroyed / Lost)
  • Adelaide de Miramas, ou le Fanatisme protestan (Destroyed / Lost)

[edit] Essays:

  • Reflections on the Novel (Idee sur les romans, introductory text to Les Crimes de l'Amour)
  • The Author of Les Crimes de l'Amour to Villeterque, Hack Writer (1803) (L'Auteur de "Les Crimes de l'Amour" a Villeterque, folliculaire)

[edit] Plays:

  • Dialogue Between a Priest and a Dying Man (Dialogue entre un pretre et un moribond)
  • Philosophy in the Bedroom (La Philosophie dans le boudoir)
  • Oxtiern, The Misfortunes of Libertinage (1800) (Le Comte Oxtiern ou les Effets du Libertinage)
  • Les Jumelles ou le /choix difficile
  • Le Prevaricateur ou le Magistrat du temps passe
  • Jeanne Laisne, ou le Siege de Beauvais
  • L'Ecole des jaloux ou la Folle Epreuve
  • Le Misanthrope par amour ou Sophie et Desfrancs
  • Le Capricieux, ou l'Homme inegal
  • Les Antiquaires
  • Henriette et Saint-Clair, ou la Force du Sang (Destroyed / Lost)
  • Franchise et Trahison
  • Fanny, ou les Effets du desespoir
  • La Tour mysterieuse
  • L'Union des arts ou les Ruses de l'amour
    • Divertissement (missing)
    • La Fille malheureuse (Destroyed / Lost)
  • Les Fetes de l'amitie
  • L'Egarement de l'infortune (Destroyed / Lost)
  • Tancrede (Destroyed / Lost)

[edit] Political Pamphlets:

  • Adresse d'un citoyen de Paris, au roi des Francais (1791)
  • Section des Piques. Observations presentees a l'Assemblee administrativedes hopitaux (28 octobre 1792)
  • Section des Piques. Idee sur le mode de la sanction des Loix; par un citoyen de cette Section (2 novembre 1792)
  • Petition des Sections de Paris a la Convention nationale (1793)
  • Section des Piques. Extraits des Registres des deliberations de l'Assemblee generale et permanente de la Section des Piques (1793)
  • La Section des Piques a ses Freres et Amis de la Societe de la Liberte et de l'Egalite, a Saintes, departement de la Charente-Inferieure (1793)
  • Section des Piques. Discours prononce par la Section des Piques, aux manes de Marat et de Le Pelletier, par Sade, citoyen de cette section et membre de la Societe populaire (1793)
  • Petition de la Section des Piques, aux representans de peuple francais (1793)
  • Les Caprices, ou un peu de tout (Destroyed / Lost)

[edit] Letter Correspondence/Personal Notes Posthumously Published into Books:

  • Letters From Prison
  • Correspondance inedite du Marquis de Sade, de ses proches et de ses familiers, publiee avec une introduction, des annales et des notes par Paul Bourdin (1929)
  • L'Aigle, Mademoiselle..., Lettres publiees pour la premiere fois sur les manuscrits autographes inedits avec une Preface et un Commentaire par Gilbert Lely (1949)
  • Le Carillon de Vincennes. Lettres inedites publiees avec des notes par Gilbert Lely (1953)
  • Cahiers personnels (1803-1804). Publies pour la premiere fois sur les manuscrits autographes inedits avec une preface et des notes par Gilbert Lely (1953)
  • Monsieur le 6. Lettres inedites (1778 - 1784) publiees et annotees par Georges Daumas. Preface de Gilbert Lely (1954)
  • Cent onze Notes pour La Nouvelle Justine. Collection "La Terrain vague," no. IV (1956)

[edit] Uncertain/Misattributions:

  • Theory of Libertinage
  • Zoloe

-Red marquis 12:21, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Comments moved from main article

In Defence of Existensialism. The M. de Sade in his "Dialoque between a Prist and a Dying Man" touches om aspects of The Philosophy of Existentialism but by no means was the Marquis an Extentialist. That philosphy had historic origins and is a part of the modern world circa WWI. The absurdity of life became even more absurd with wars of worldwide scope and colonial wars and neo-colonial and now wars for no simple reasons except to appease the military-industrial establishment and protect economic interests (oil) and strategic land (Israel). Existentialism remains a relevant and provocative approach to life whereas the Marquis offerred more examples of the abuse of power. —200.86.154.106 (talk) 13:28, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Philosopher Infobox

Do you think we ought to change the infobox to a philosopher`s infobox considering the influence de Sade had on many philosopher's and the content of his works? Exiledone (talk) 19:41, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Non-fiction?

I know very little about the Marquis de Sade indeed. I was, however, a little puzzled to find that under the main heading of non-fiction works were listed his novels and novellas, including Justine, Juliette, and the 120 Days of Sodom. Are these non-fiction works, or has somebody created the list with "Non-fiction" erroneously placed as a major heading, as if these works form a sub-section within the larger category of non-fiction?--Oxonian2006 (talk) 19:47, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] places of prisonement

it didnt sound for me to list all the places where he was imprisoned in the lead. instead i would expect to see names of some very famous novels by him. --ArazZeynili (talk) 16:40, 7 March 2008 (UTC)