Talk:Mark Kramer

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page.	Biography Portal
Start	This article has been rated as Start-Class on the project's quality scale. [FAQ]
	This article is supported by WikiProject Musicians, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed biographical guide to musicians and musical groups on Wikipedia.
More information about this article... The following comments have been left for this page: Gossip aside, much of what you read about Kramer's personal history is true, if not even understated. His relationship with his first wife is hardly ever addressed and Kramer often negates the fact that she was almost wholly responsible financially for the existance of Shimmy-Disc. Kramer was just a salad chef with a trombone. Not nearly as discussed about his personal life is how Shimmy-Disc funds were dispersed. Several of the bands Kramer uses to tout his "fame" ie: Eugene Chadbourne and BALL may have other comments about the man he really may not want to have exposed. I have known his former wife personally for years and Kramer has literally left her without her proper due financially and has recently separated her from any contact to their daughter, Tess. "Gossip" aside, Kramer touts his "celebrity" behind a sham of lawsuits, personal abuse and finacial arrears to almost everyone he has known. A comment on the story on the Ann Magnuson affair...Kramer claims he is making a film on "The Guilt Trip'. It will be curious if he tells the whole story of his many affairs to other women throughout his marriage and if he truly feels "guilty" about anything. He had dedicated "The Guilt Trip" to "Shannon and Tess" and yet where is "Shannon"? in all of his history in spite of the fact that they were together for 16 years and she was possibly the only reason Kramer made anything of himself...Kramer, where is Shannon Kramer anyway? Some of us would like to know... (edit)

Thanks to the anonymous person who greatly expanded this article. I did searching and didn't see anyplace else on the web that the article seemed to be derived from. I think it would be helpful to have some sources to cite. I have edited the article with an eye towards NPOV and changed some style to make it more encyclopida-esque. It could use some more work in this area, however.--Larrybob 23:56, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

I have a strong suspicion (actually i have no doubt) that this is an autobiographical entry. Thanks for taking on the editing, Larrybob. I had no idea where to even start.--Handsome pete 15:51, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the comment. It could still use more work, though.--Larrybob 21:26, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

• This article probably already has enough bands mentioned without adding even more obsucre ones. For something like a fuller list of Kramer's productions, try Shimmy Disc discography.--Larrybob 01:41, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

It's certainly overly kind to him as a person- he may have made some great music, but I've personally spoken to a ShimmyDisc band who said he was virtually impossible to work with and the breakup of the Ann Magnuson relationship is completely glossed over- he'd left his wife for Magnuson when he found out his wife was pregnant and then went back to her (clearly it didn't work out as they divorced in 1994). I can't find the interview online so I won't put it in the main article. 144.87.143.3 15:12, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, i found him fine to work with and he produced a damn good record for us. That kind of third-party hearsay is not appropriate for an encyclopedic article. I would argue that gossip about his relationships is not neccessary, either. ikes 17:03, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Then perhaps you ought to remove all reference to his personal life from the main article if you feel so strongly about it. Why do you think I mentioned it here rather than in the main article? Dear me. Shall we talk about the other things that aren't appropriate to an encyclopaedic article, while we're here? The heavily biased tone; Calling himself a former member of the Butthole Surfers when he didn't really do a lot more than play bass for them on one tour; and calling himself a member of the Fugs (same). There's a section about Bongwater and the fact that the band's relationship deteriorated with no mention of why it did, and I think it would be appropriate to give background to people wondering why such a great band split up. It was the Tinklers I spoke to about him- it was over a decade ago. I'm a fan of his music otherwise I wouldn't be bothering to write about him- but I do think the article is heavily biased in his favour while ignoring the (sometimes quite substantial) problems that numerous people have reported in terms of working with him. Famous Mortimer 08:26, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the article is biased. If you feel so strongly about it, then clean it up. It desperately needs it. I personally haven't had the energy or interest to do it. Including gossip is not going to help the article. I am just saying, the Tinklers may have found him impossible to work with, but others may have the opposite opinion. The article should stick to facts. ikes 15:09, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Hsg3 20:53, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I thought he was a nice guy, from the very little that I talked to him right when the whole Ann Magnuson thing was happening. Just so you know, there IS a Melody Maker article or two from right around that time, where Kramer goes into detail about the lawsuit and the personal stuff associated with it. (Melody Maker wrote about him a fair bit, probably because they loved Galaxie 500.) So, that whole drama can indeed be sourced. And, since it did affect Shimmydisc (and his singles label), it probably is good info to be included into the article as long as it's properly sourced and conforming to WP:BLP, of course. Anyway, yeah, the article should be cleaned up too. AllGloryToTheHypnotoad (talk) 17:54, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

One minor point on the bio. I believe Kramer's full name is Steven Mark Kramer. I bought a Bongwater shirt nearly 20 years ago that came with an enclosed bank deposit slip for "Mr. Steven Kramer."Hsg3 20:53, 6 February 2007 (UTC)