Talk:Mario Lopez

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was Moved. Teke ^(talk) 18:24, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Mario López → Mario Lopez — Official website uses his name without an accent. While other sources (IMDB, TV.com, etc.) include the accent, if his official site doesn't stylize his name that way, that could be considered definitive. Another editor has removed all instances of the accent in the article. Tinlinkin 11:01, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Add  # '''Support'''  or  # '''Oppose'''  on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~. Please remember that this survey is not a vote, and please provide an explanation for your recommendation.

[edit] Survey - in support of the move

1. Support using Eurosong's reasoning from the "Oppose" section below. Just because some people are named López with an acute accent "does not give us the right to change someone's proper name" and one would assume his official website gives his proper name. —  AjaxSmack  02:29, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
2. Support. "Lopez" is not just his official domain name. Here are several definitive places where "Lopez" was the listed spelling:
   • his 'bio' on his official site [1]
   • his bio and other references to his name on the official "Dancing With the Stars" website[2]
   • a video of the "Saved By the Bell" opening credits, found on YouTube. (And they are obviously punctuation-conscious, since they made the effort to put the hyphens in "Mark-Paul Gosselaar" and "Tiffani-Amber Thiessen"). [3]

   Many, many Americans with that surname spell it "Lopez", including actress Jennifer Lopez and actor George Lopez. Is anyone questioning those pages? The opposition to this move needs to come up with something more definitive. Vandelay 02:22, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

3. Support as nominator, but if there is reliable evidence (which I haven't seen yet) that, as his personal choice, he writes his own name with an acute accent, and the appearance as "López" is not only implied by his ancestral heritage or pronunciation (because he was born and raised in America), then I would reconsider. Tinlinkin 19:06, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
4. Support This may come as a surprise for those who may have by chance read my opinion on diacritics on the Waldemar Matuška issue...I'll explain...

   Unlike the English language, which doesn't have any recognized institution that regulates its own usage worldwide, the Spanish language has a definite set of rules for proper and improper usage. They are dictated by the Real Academia Española and these rules are recognized by the Spanish-speaking community in twenty-one countries around the world (including the United States where the branch of the Academia is called the "Academia Norteamericana de la Lengua Española"). Therefore, if your name is of Spanish heritage, and you think of yourself as a Hispanic, it doesn't matter if you yourself don't know how on earth to spell your own name, there will be a "correct" and "incorrect" spelling and it doesn't depend on you to decide. I'm assuming, by his looks, that this guy is of Latin heritage but I might be wrong, or if he is indeed of Latin heritage he might be other than Spanish (as I've known of some "Lopez" folk that are descended from French Creole...I don't know how the French regulate their own language or if they even do so).

   In Spanish, the rule for grave words such as the surname "López" (grave words have the accent on the next to last syllable so they're pronounced for example LO-pez and not lo-PEZ), is that they have a diacritic on top of the accented vowel when they end in a letter other than "n", "s" or any of the vowels. If Mario's surname is of Spanish heritage and he considers himself a Latino, then it is his own responsability to honor this heritage and write his name with a diacritic; not doing so just shows he is in ignorance of his cultural inheritance or has purposefully turned his back to it and consequently should not be considered a Latino at all but a regular american. The thing with these entertainers such as himself or Jennifer López is that, first, they normally descend from uneducated Hispanic American folk who emigrated to the United States to escape from poverty and who, being uneducated themselves, didn't know how to spell their own names correctly so they didn't teach their children to do so. Second, JLo and Mario were educated in American schools (as far as I know), where they weren't taught proper Spanish and even if they know how to speak Spanish they aren't aware of many of the grammatical rules.

   Does Mario acknowledges he has Latin American roots? Has he cared to learn Spanish and understand how his name should be written? I think not. So, if he DOES write his surname with a diacritic it should be respected in the articles at Wikipedia, as part of the purpose of an encyclopaedia is intrinsically to value and respect other cultures (that's why we are interested in knowing about them; if we didn't value other cultures then why bother to research and study them?). On the contrary, if he DOES NOT write his own names with a diacritic this should be respected as well in the articles, like in JLo's case where she doesn't write her surname in a Spanish way and where her own family obviously refuses its Latin roots by giving their children american names such as Jennifer and Lynn...I have nothing against that, it's perfectly feasible for someone of Latin (or whatever) heritage to reject their ancestors' culture but in doing so, they have to accept all of the consequences that go with it, the most important of which is to not be recognized as Latinos. So, as I see Mario Lopez isn't hailed as a Latino anywhere in this article but as an American, it means to me he IS an American, not a Latino, and therefore his surname must be written "Lopez" not "López". Rosa 01:11, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

   This is also a two-way street, Rosa. With all your preaching (even though I think you are wrong), maybe you could show that you yourself can learn a little respect for other cultures, and go move the article at our sister Wikipedia from es:Jennifer López, and do a little bit of your teaching of respect for other cultures there? Gene Nygaard 15:02, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

   I have no need of "learning a little respect" since I already have A LOT of respect for foreign cultures Gene (including yours). As you may read at Waldemar Matuška's Talk I said that the Czech Wikipedia's use of the word "Londýn" instead of "London" was a mistake. About Mrs. Lopez at the Spanish Wikipedia, you may see the article was originally created as "Jennifer Lopez" by one of her fans, but some Guido who probably doesn't know about Mrs. Lopez decision renamed the page, as in Spanish there are specific rules for language usage, rules that don't apply in these case to Mrs. Lopez as she acknowledges her birthplace above all. Since the page "Jennifer Lopez" already exists I left a comment about this issue at both talk pages and am going to ask for an admin's assistance to rename the page back to the original.Rosa 19:07, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

   In fact, as you may see at Jennifer Lopez's redirect someone before me already made a comment on the matter that her name is to be spelled without the diacritic.Rosa 19:17, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

1. Support per AjaxSmack and Vandelay. Rosa's reasoning is fallacious; there are deeply Greek-Americans who spell Παπαδημήτριος DeMet. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:11, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

   Well, it's not exactly the same. Spelling your name as Παπαδημήτριος in check books, contracts, etc. is troublesome in daily life if you live in the USA, unlike López/Lopez.Rosa 19:33, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

   Yes, it is a matter of convenience; so is choosing whether or not to use "Papademetrios". So, often, is choosing whether or not to use López, which can be just as inconvenient as the Greek alphabet, depending on what anglophones one deals with. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:20, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

   I sincerely believe that in the case of Americans who descend from Hispanics, it has more to do with not even caring about their Latin roots than about the inconviniences that may be presented to them in their daily lives by putting a diacritic on top of one of the vowels of their surname. Rosa 01:45, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

   It is clear that you deeply believe this; do you have any verifiable evidence that it is true in this case? (either way; either that ML is deracinated and uses Lopez; or is a true Latino and uses López?) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:40, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

   I didn't ask you to show me verifiable evidence that the Greek-Americans who spell Παπαδημήτριος DeMet felt deeply about their roots, although for me this isn't obvious as I hardly know anything about Greek-Americans (other than that wedding movie lol); just like for you the issue of Hispano-Americans who portray themselves as purely Americans may not be obvious, even if it is for me. I just took your word for it because I believe that in principle people will not lie for no reason. I know that Wikipedia has a policy on verifiability, but as it says right there, "it's not set in stone". In fact, no law is ever set in stone as laws aren't important in themselves, but only as mechanisms that promotes society's advancement. That's in principle why I support foreign spelling use at Wikipedia, even if it's contrary to the current naming conventions; because I believe part of society's advancement is recognizing other cultures and their manifestations as equally valuable.(Sorry for turning this into a soapbox, it was just part of the explanation even if it delves into my personal thoughts, I have argumented about the foreign naming conventions issue here)Rosa 20:51, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

2. Support. How how he is best known in English is the primary consideration, but that can be difficult to determine with common names like this. In that case, the spelling in English on an "official" website is as good an indicator as any. BTW, Rosa's reasoning (using the term loosely) that it is our responsibility as Wikipedia editors to tell people they are so damn stupid that they spell their names wrong, and we need to fix it for them and spell it "correctly", is sheer lunacy. I'm not even going to try to figure out how she got from there to her support. Gene Nygaard 05:30, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

   LOL well Gene, you could certainly illustrate us all a bit more on that topic ;)Rosa 06:48, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Survey - in opposition to the move

1. Oppose - Just because his official site does not use the accent, that doesn't mean it's right. Céline Dion's English site doesn't either. Mario's correct name is with the ó. Yes I know this is the English Wikipedia, but that just means that articles are in English. That does not give us the right to change someone's proper name. EuroSong ^talk 19:15, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

   And notice Céline Dion's Wikipedia article is not at Céline Dion. —  AjaxSmack  10:52, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

2. Oppose. As pointed above, official websites are often not accurate. Kimi Räikkönen's official website uses Kimi Raikkonen, despite the fact that in Finnish language A/O and Ä/Ö are separate letters of the alphabet. Correct name should be used and the evidence for "Lopez" is very weak. Prolog 06:00, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

   But then where is the evidence that López (born and raised in America) is correct? What sounds correct may not be. Tinlinkin 21:05, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Add any additional comments:

So, how do we know what is the correct spelling? I'd say we need a definitive source, one way or the other, before we change it. Maybe we should just ask him, through his site; that'd settle it. Unless that falls under "original research"? But if he posted an answer on his site, it could be used as a reference I guess. If I remember to, I'll try to ask through his site, but if someone else beats me to it, I won't mind.  :) --Ebyabe 20:46, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

A posted answer on his site should clarify things, and perhaps we'll have to wait for that. Tinlinkin 21:09, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

• Neutral for now. IMDB is not the most accurate of sources and Eurosong makes a compelling point with his Celine Dion example. I would like to see more compelling evidence in either direction over what would be his official name or even if he condone's alternative spellings. 205.157.110.11 02:44, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

The examples of Celine Dion (notice the article is not at Céline Dion) and Kimi Räikkönen are non-native English/Americans who were originally named in French/Finnish. Lopez is a native American and there is no evidence he ever uses Spanish for his name. —  AjaxSmack  10:52, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.