Talk:Marilyn Manson (band)/Archive 1

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Marilyn Manson's music was cited as a motivation in the Columbine High School massacre (ref. [1]).

By whom? GWO

References

http://www.marilynmanson.com
[1] http://www.rollingstone.com/artists/bio.asp?oid=54

The citation of Marilyn Manson's music as a motivation in the Columbine High School massacre was made by one or many non-psychologists with a tendency to blame effects (listening to Marilyn Manson as a result of feeling alienated) as causes, and also an incomplete appreciation for freedom of expression.

Among the non-psychologists who publicly mentioned Marilyn Manson in connetction with the Columbine High School massacre was Senator Joe Lieberman.

Marilyn Manson's music most likely had nothing to do with the Columbine massacre, since Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold didn't listen to him. Attempts to blame him for it is most likely hysteria.

Manson has nothing to fear for the blame of the coulumbine massacre. it is just little church goes too afraid to believe that anything that their children might do is the fault of their upbringing or treatment in other places.

I dunno why this was protected, so i unprotected it. Tuf-Kat

I'm not a fan of the group or the music they make. Frankly, I think a lot of what they do and say is just to stir up the Conservative movement in this country because it generates a great deal of publicity about them. Like the old saying goes, there's no such thing as bad publicity. It keeps them in the public eye. I don't see that their music has had any sort of impact on what's lead to the various school shootings over the past decade. People identify with certain songs of various musicians, something about the lyrics or about the story a song tells or the experiences it conveys. I was always under the impression that touching the listeners on some level was the point of music to begin with. There was no brainwashing or hidden messages that suddenly forced these kids to kill anyone. During the 1980's, Ozzy Osbourne was blamed for the suicides of two teenage boys because they listened to his music, and his stuff is downright tame compared to some of the stuff Manson spews out. There was no evidence at all to suggest that Osbourne's music encouraged their suicides just as there's no evidence to link Manson to the Columbine shootings. People seem to have this tendency of trying to lay the blame for the problems in their own lifes, or the problems of society in general, on those they percieve to be "outcasts" or "evil" or just plain convenient.

Just because he's different they blame him. He lights the Bible on fire during shows so they say he's Satanist and caused it. They can't take the blame for their own monsters they created. TearAwayTheFunerealDress 15:41, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Someone has just changed the Dita Von Teese article to say that she is Manson's girlfriend, not his wife. Are they married or not? RickK 04:11, 3 Oct 2003 (UTC)

No, they're not married. Bubblewrap 14:55, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Contents

band vs. person

move all the personal stuff to his personal page and all the band stuff to this page and keep this page strictly about band history and other members, etc.? - Omegatron 01:38, Oct 29, 2004 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. violet/riga (t) 10:31, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Yup, sounds like a plan. PMC 22:51, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Suggest slightly seperating the demo releases/early material from the full length LP's, starting with Portrait. --Insomniak 05:24, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

silly question

does anyone know when and where he did the cover of Like a Virgin? thanks. --little Alex 07:35, Jan 5, 2005 (UTC)

I seem to remember having an MP3 of it, it sounded like a bootlegged live recording, realy bed quality, you could barely make out the song. On the other hand he did a live cover of ...Baby One More Time (song), which was rather funny. --62.160.189.132 19:01, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Connection to gothic sub-culture

  • re: "the fact that Manson's music had little to no relation to gothic music or sub-culture."

In my experience Manson has been very popular in and has strongly influenced the goth sub-culture in the U.S. Can somebody support the above claim from the article?

Connection to gothic sub-culture

  • re: "the fact that Manson's music had little to no relation to gothic music or sub-culture."

In my experience Manson has been very popular in and has strongly influenced the goth sub-culture in the U.S., perhaps even at one point being the most prominent goth music along with NIN. Can somebody support the above claim from the article?--Nectarflowed (talk) 12:26, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Marilyn Manson is not "gothic" and neither is nine inch nails. Nine inch nails is industrial/alternative-pop, Manson is metal/shock-rock/glam. Goth rock and deathrock are offshoots of punk and post-punk that began in the late '70s and early '80s. Gothic sub-culture is related to goth rock. See All Music entry for Goth rock for more relating to that. Also, article on Manson (link). Manson is commonly mistaken for "gothic" by the media. While, there are certainly goths that listen to Marilyn Manson and Manson gets played at some "goth" clubs occasionally, that does not make Manson gothic or give him any connection to the sub-culture. A lot of goths listen to Duran Duran, too, after all, but I doubt anyone would call them gothic.
Note that a lot of goths freak the **** out because they're terrified of pop culture. Manson isn't a huge influence though. They're more of a gateway band. 13 year olds listen to them, then if they don't drop the act after a few years they'll study further into this dark side of western culture and find what considered by elitists to be true goth.

Mansons music composed by others

First it was Trent Reznor, but then changed to Twiggy, who composed Antichrist Superstar (it is not clear what parts are meant by "composed"). People also claim that Twiggy "mostly composed" Mechanical Animals. I've followed Manson's work and rumors for many years--never have I heard any of these.

An anonymous editor did followup these claims with some links to interviews saved on MansonUSA.com. I scoured these interviews and found nothing to support either claim, but found plenty of examples of these albums being mainly the result of a collective effort between Madonna Wayne, Twiggy, and Manson.

Before these claims appear in this article again, can someone please paste relevant citations that support either of these claims?

Yeago 15:27, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

references

My point is more that the Reznor claim was clearly wrong. I haven't looked for a definitive history of who did what, but what I stated is common knowledge among Manson fans and is only disputed by those unfamiliar with the band or relatively obsessed with Trent Reznor.

[1]

I've been a fan since Children; I've never heard of this. Many times, what is "common knowledge" is indeed rumor. Many people believe its common knowledge he had his ribs removed--you can't just rely on hearsay, especially when contributing to an articleYeago 20:53, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Trent Reznor is somebody Marilyn and Twiggy know very well because he produced their new album, Antichrist Superstar so, um, Marilyn, I just wanted to, uh, put it to you that, um, working with such a great musician, um, like Trent must have been a very satisfying and also, you know, rewarding experience. Do you think that you allowed his influence to come through a bit more on this record and also he co-wrote some of the songs with you, didn't he?

Marilyn Manson: Yeah, we approached this one more open minded. We, uh, had a lot of songs that were written on the road, Twiggy and I, and, uh, we wanted an outside opinion and, uh, our guitar player left at the beginning of making this record so, you know, Trent plays guitar too so every now and then if he had an idea it came in.

[2]

Your quote does not indicate that Twiggy entirely, mostly, or predominantly composed any album. Manson uses the phrases "we" "our guitar player" "Twiggy and I". What you inserted into the article indicated that Manson had minimal, if any, input. Yeago 20:53, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Guitar School: It seems that each of the three cycles has, musically at least, a thematic consistency; it's as if each of those three sections could stand alone as the album.

Marilyn Manson: It was all very subconscious. It wasn't so contrived that we said "This is the way this is going to be." It just came out of us and happened to fit together in the right way. I'm a little too close to it now to step back and look at it, but when Twiggy and I were writing the record, I would come to him with these dreams that I had, lyrically, and we would understand each other. The music would come from the same place. Whereas, in the past, we wrote in more of a "band" way, and it was very democratic, everybody in a room playing their parts and coming up with ideas. But this was very focused and it came from a specific place in our minds. Twiggy and I were in tune with one another. Pogo [keyboardist Madonna Wayne Gacy] too, for that matter. The core writing of the album was us three, and the number three occurs a lot on the record. In numerology there's a lot of significace to the number three. It's traditionally a very powerful number; you find it in a lot of religions. It's the Holy Trinity, and in magic it's a very powerful number.

Guitar School: How did all this contribute to you gettin a new guitarist?

Marilyn Manson: That triangle is one of the main reasons that we sought out another guitar player, because we were all in a very specific frame of mind and our former guitarist wasn't. So, nearly all the guitar playing on the album was done by Twiggy. I played on three tracks, Daisy [Berkowitz, former guitarist] played on three, Trent played on one or two and Zim played on the live song that we're going to recored in February of next year.

Guitar playing was done by Twiggy, Ok. It says nothing of Twiggy being the sole author of those parts. Nor did you ever mention solely the guitars being "composed" by Twiggy; song composition is much more than one instrument.Yeago 20:53, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Guitar School: Who are some of your major musical influences?

Marilyn Manson: Adam Ant, David Bowie, Bauhaus, Annie Lennox. One of my favorite records is Mob Rules, when Dio sang with Black Sabbath. I even like Creedence Clearwater Revival. I like dark things; not only predictably dark things, but things that you might not expect to have a lot of pain in them, but do. I like old Rolling Stones, too. [b]Twiggy and I like a lot of the same stuff and when we were making this record, we drew on our influences. We also wanted to capitalize on everyone's strengths. That's why the record is almost like the White Album: There's some stuff that's very keyboard-oriented, and that's Pogo; there's stuff that's very guitar-oriented that Twiggy is responsible for; and there's stuff that revolves around the vocal that I did. We wanted a balanced album.

So far, it seems that the specifics of who-composed-what is noncontroversial and pretty standard for albums. The guy who played guitars tended to compose the guitar parts, the keyboardist; keyboard parts. And wouldn't you know, Manson worked on the vocals. Based on this description, who "composed" the above album? The three of them, which is hardly worth mention.
Anyway, I appreciate you going through and backing yourself up, instead of returning to the article again and again and bombing it with your beliefs. I appreciate you moving discussion to the talk page so we can work this out. I have no doubt, based on the different sounds of the three albums, that Manson may rely on others for the final result of his albums, but better evidence than this is needed. Now, if Trent or Twiggy had made a statement somewhere that this was the case, and that ACS would have been nothing without him, that he held Manson's hand as he traced his lyrics, that would be another matter...Yeago 20:53, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Your quote does not indicate that Twiggy entirely, mostly, or predominantly composed any album. Manson uses the phrases "we" "our guitar player" "Twiggy and I". What you inserted into the article indicated that Manson had minimal, if any, input.

My intention was to fix the lines indicating that Reznor was the primary songwriter, not to minimize Manson's influence. I didn't insert anything to try to push Manson out, rather I edited that paragraph to give him and Ramirez some deserved credit. Ramirez was the primary songwriter and Manson was the primary creative force on the album with contributions from others. At this point there needs to be some sort of paragraph in the article about that particular period.
Cool. Add something, but quote a source.Yeago 17:59, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

bible quotes

From entry:

On May 16, 2001, it was announced on the ReligionToday website that Manson planned to quote the Bible at his next concert, to "balance out" his violent lyrics, "so we can examine the virtues of wonderful Christian stories of disease, murder, adultery, suicide and child sacrifice. Now that seems like entertainment to me."

it's been 4 years, however no indication if it indeed happened or not. -- (☺drini♫|☎) 04:54, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

I beg to differ. On the Nobodies single, the third track is "The Death Song" performed live, before which he reads from the bible. Okay, so it's not like I own it, but I have an mp3 around here and amazon.com confirms that it is on the Nobodies single. It goes something like this:
"Denver, Colorado it's been a long time coming! And you're the best fucking crowd I've seen all my life." (typical rock-concert stuff, eh? the crowd roars) "There's alot of people standing outside tonight, holding this fucking book right here. And they want to tell me that they care more about you than I do. So I think for those people outside can I hear a Fuck You?" (crowd roars back "Fuck You!") "And like I promised, I said I would read from the Bible." (the crowd roars) "Now let me ask you a question. Does this sound like it's very offensive to people? 'For every one that curses his father or his mother, he shall surely be put to death'!" (crowd boos) "And that's not all, brothers and sisters" (cheers) "And if we can turn our bibles to Psalms . . . 'Happy shall he be that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones'. So let me ask you a question, who is a worse influence, God, or Marilyn Manson?" (crowd roars "God!") "And if that is not the best fucking example, God Himself killed his own motherfuckin' son! So let's sing the Death Song kids!" (cue song intro)
So, in other words, I'd say, evidence. (plus, it just wouldn't make sense for Manson never to bother to get around to doing anything like that, considering how in-keeping with his 'antics' so to speak) What do the rest of you think? Phil Urich 06:01, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Mansun

I was wondering what people's thoughts are about including a mention of Mansun somewhere to assist with disambiguation between the two? I know they're not really that similar, but if someone had only heard the name spoken, they might be a bit confused? (Or, like me, they might be getting far too little sleep and be wandering around trying to find why Attack of the Grey Lantern isn't listed as an album here hahaha) --Qirex 07:59, 13 October 2005 (UTC)