Talk:Marilyn Manson (band)

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Marilyn Manson (band) article.
Please sign and date your posts by typing four tildes (~~~~). Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Ask questions, get answers. This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject.	Be polite Assume good faith No personal attacks Be welcoming	Article policies No original research Neutral point of view Verifiability
Archives: 1

	Marilyn Manson (band) is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.
	This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on January 5, 2006.
Article milestones Date Process Result November 18, 2005 Peer review Reviewed December 6, 2005 Featured article candidate Promoted February 19, 2007 Featured article review Demoted Current Status: Former featured article

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page.	Biography Portal
B	This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale. [FAQ]
	This article is supported by WikiProject Musicians, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed biographical guide to musicians and musical groups on Wikipedia.

	Heavy metal Portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Metal, an attempt to improve articles related to heavy metal music. Please participate by visiting the project page for more details on the projects.
B	This article has been rated as B-class on the quality scale.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale.
The article has been rated for quality and/or importance but has no comments yet. If appropriate, please review the article and then leave comments here to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article and what work it will need.

Contents 1 Idiot grammar 2 Paintings 3 Dita Von Teese 4 Band members 4.1 Daisy 4.2 Pogo's status in the band. 5 Genre 5.1 Nu metal 5.2 goth rock 6 Practicing satanist??? 7 Possible fun 8 "Absolutely fantastic". Is that objective? 9 Images 10 Marilyn Manson On The Internet - separate article? 11 Record Label 12 spooky kids 13 Leno Appearance 14 Marilyn Manson Tag 15 Is Manson a drug user? 16 Early Years timeline error 17 Infobox image 18 Citing books 19 sweet dreams link 20 Requested move 20.1 Survey 20.1.1 Survey - in support of the move 20.1.2 Survey - in opposition to the move 20.2 Discussion 21 Incontinuity 22 A note on GA status 23 Celebritarian rising: the new era (2006–) 24 Jennifer Zawaski 25 WTF 26 hmmm... 27 Fair use criteria 28 This is a bad bad bad article 29 Removal of gothic rock 30 Name 31 Rock or Metal 32 Genres 33 Image 34 Olivia Newton Bundy & Zsa Zsa Speck 35 What happen to the Soundtracks contributions 36 Fair use rationale for Image:Mmlogo.png 37 Twiggy's Back 38 gENRES 39 Big Black 40 Chris Vrenna 41 Rob Holiday 42 Awards 43 7th Album Details

[edit] Idiot grammar

Someone's too much in love with the ampersand in this article. Wtf? --TorbenFrost 13:04, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Paintings

I didn't find any reference to his paintings. Should we open a section for it ? --Julien 03:36, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

I think that's an excellent idea.--Jimmyjrg 03:55, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

A reference already exists at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marilyn_Manson_%28person%29#Art_career , where it belongs. This article is for the band, not the man himself. 68.235.174.142 04:09, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

I just realised that, it gets confusing sometimes --Jimmyjrg 13:11, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dita Von Teese

Why is Dita Von Teese completely missing from the article? It seems they married on December 3, 2005 ([1])? Could anybody add more about his personal life? Thanks -- Chris 73 | Talk 10:09, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Ok, I see, it's only about the band. My mistake. -- Chris 73 | Talk 10:16, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Band members

[edit] Daisy

Please be aware, for future refrence, Daisy Berkowitz is/has been credited with programming, drums, bass, guitar, and also some lyrics(only from the spooky kids era) his voice is also on My Monkey.

This is undebatable as its in the POAF credits. Gein did do SOME bass but he didnt write too much for Marilyn Manson as he was booted before they could work together more.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Synthetic coma (talk • contribs) 07:20, December 16, 2005 (UTC).

Any particular reason, then, that the credits for Portrait read "All bass by Gidget Gein"? --keepsleeping say what 17:14, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Besides, it's not even an issue, because the article lists each member and his primary instrument. Pogo plays theremin on Portrait; it's not in the list. Manson plays pan flute on Antichrist Superstar and harpsichord on Holy Wood; that's not in the list. Daisy played guitar and, because he was responsible for most of the Spooky Kids-era programming, he's also credited with that. --keepsleeping say what 17:19, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Anyway, to prevent edit warring on this article, I've added the following lines following the personnel list:

Most, if not all, members of the band have contributed performances (either live or in-studio) on instruments other than their primary ones. For instance, Gacy has played theremin and calliope, Manson has played pan flute and harpsichord, and Berkowitz has been credited with bass guitar, drum machines, and vocals. Further details on these contributions can be found in the individual members' articles and in the articles on the band's albums. --keepsleeping say what 17:47, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Manson is credited with the Pan flute.

It meant Gein recorded the album. I guess it depends on how detailed you want it, do you want it about what the person contributed, or what the person played live?

For the record, Id consider that a Primary contribution. It was only Daisy Pogo and Manson for most of the time before getting signed. Bassists (as you can see in the former members) had been in and out.

That's incorrect. Olivia Newton Bundy was only bassist for a brief time period, and then it was Gidget Gein for the next 3-4 years or so, right up until after POAAF was recorded, but before it was released. He wasn't present at the release party. I'd say two bassists over the majority of their history doesn't qualify as "in and out." heavensblade23 23:26, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pogo's status in the band.

I know that Pogo is having some kind of personal problem and that he is being replaced by Chris Vrenna on keyboards for the tour, but i can't find him on either the 'Current Members' or 'Former Members' list. Shouldn't Pogo's name be on one of those lists? What's up with this?

Pogo is no more! --Manson_0015 God Of Fuck! 20:39, 29 September 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Manson 0015 (talk • contribs)

[edit] Genre

It should be decided which music genre Manson is as it seems every few weeks to get changed between "nu metal" and "alternative", I feel he is either alternative or rock, isn't nu metal more like Linkin Park and even Limp Bizkit?

It's more hard rock than anything. That's the definition I've always used, and that's the definition I've seen used the most. Calling the band nu metal, though, is ridiculous - it displays almost none of the qualities associated with nu metal. ~ Dead 03:40, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. It's far from being nu metal. Jeremyh 22:43, 2 January 2006 (UTC) nah ive always said its shock rock or even glam, as it has alot of influences from these sorts of bands.

Well they have alot of Glam influences, but they're only really "Glam" on Mechanical Animals, the thing with Manson, they play a different variation of music each album, I think the most general term would be "Industrial Rock".... as the core seems to be predominatly Hard rock with some Industrial. - Deathrocker 19:53, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

I think Industrial Metal, but it is also Industrial Rock. New metal is just wrong, and I dont think alternative is quite right either. -BugsyAbsolute

I think that industrial metal is a more accurate genre to describe his music than industrial rock. DavidJJJ 10:43, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. Alternative metal, sure, since the band clearly fits the description in that article. But in comparison to "mainstream" industrial rock bands like Nine Inch Nails and KMFDM, you find a lot more elements in common with Marilyn Manson than you would between MM and industrial metal artists like Ministry. They're really more of a hard rock band than a heavy metal band to begin with, but, in the end, the truth is that they draw from many different styles and they shift genres frequently, and that's mentioned in the article. --keepsleeping slack off! 15:04, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

These genre wars are hard to stop. I went by the categorisation at the All Music Guide and hopefully that quells it a bit. -- Reaper X 23:53, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Marilyn Manson is classified as nu metal on Rockdetector [2]; I think that nu metal should be added to the list of genres. I would consider putting it before the others since I have always known Marilyn Manson as a nu metal artist/band. Now if this causes problems with certain fans, I'm willing to let it slip to the bottom of the list of genres, but I strongly feel that Nu metal should be added there. Zouavman Le Zouave _{(Talk to me! • O))))} 21:40, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm a fairly hardcore Manson fan, and I do not agree with the nu-metal classification. He do not rap, or use turntables in any of his songs. Shock rock/alternative metal has always been my choice of genres for him. Nickoladze 03:57, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

True, but System of a Down or Soulfly are often labeled nu metal even though they do not use turntables. And Manson does use rap-sounding vocals in some of his songs (This Is The New Hit, for example). Since a reputated source like Rockdetector classifies Manson as nu metal, I think it is legitimate for this genre to be listed in the infobox. Zouavman Le Zouave _{(Talk to me! • O))))} 10:24, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Why not use a blanket statement like "The band's work is hard to categorize, as their overall sound changes from album to album" or something to that affect? It would probably help settle this issue and hopefully stop the constant arguing that comes up with every Manson album/ single/ new fan who has a different opinion of what each genre technically is.- to tough to die 13:19, 4 February 2007

Well, I wouldn't do that, because first of all I don't agree with the statement, but also because I don't think the genre is controversial/complex enough to add a paragraph describing how the genre is debated. Bands like H.I.M. who have a very disputed and hard-to-categorize style have such paragraphs, which I think is the best way to deal with such a problem. I don't think that this problem is present on this article. We all know approximately what genre Marilyn Manson belongs to. I think simply adding Nu metal in the infobox would be alright. Zouavman Le Zouave _{(Talk to me! • O))))} 20:10, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Okay this is the last call... ^^ If anyone has a reasonable reason to tell me why Nu metal shouldn't be on there, may that person say it :) I have a source that has a very good reputation, so I think it should be enough. Zouavman Le Zouave _{(Talk to me! • O))))} 16:49, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Instead, write up a section for the article about his varying genres, and have the infobox say "Debated", and link to to that section. Nickoladze 04:26, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes I have considered this option. However, I do not think that Manson's genre is that hard to catetgorize. There is no real debate around his musical genre. We pretty much all know that his music is a mix of shock rock and other rock subgenres. Adding nu metal to the list is legitimate because Rockdetector classifies the band as such. Encyclopaedia Metallum does not have Manson in its database because it considers it mallcore (which is a derogatory for nu metal and metalcore). I would also like to say that adding nu metal to the list is by no way an attack on Manson's reputation. The fact that I despise Marilyn Manson does not have anything to do with my actions. I'm not doing this against him (or the article, for that matter), and I am keeping my personal opinion of him aside. I hope you understand. Now could you give me a good reason why nu metal should not be added to the list? Zouavman Le Zouave _{(Talk to me! • O))))} 09:49, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Simple, he doesn't use turntables, and he doesn't "rap" (although I guess you could say he has a few influences on of it on his latest album.) Examples of Nu-Metal would be Linkin Park, KoRn, and Limp Bizkit. If you listen to a track by them, then one by Manson, you will see pretty much no similarities. His lastest album, The Golden Age of Grotesque, sounds different because of the addition of John 5, and he brought with him Industrial music influences from his work with KMFDM. Nickoladze 19:03, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

As I have already said, he does rap in certain songs, notably "This is the new shit". And nu metal bands like System of a Down or Disturbed do not use turntables as well. They are still nu metal. Rockdetector is a recognized website created by a musicologist that classifies most of the rock bands. If such a great source describes Marilyn Manson as nu metal, I think it probably has its place in the infobox. Zouavman Le Zouave _{(Talk to me! • O))))} 20:54, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't think System of a Down nor Disturbed are Nu-Metal. In my mind, Nu-Metal is just a genre used to classify KoRn, Linkin Park, and Limp Bizkit, but then just overused by heavy metal fans as a derogatory term. SoaD doesn't rap, so why are they Nu-Metal? Sure, maybe Marilyn Manson raps in "This is the New Shit", but have you listened to any of his previous album? "The Golden Age of Grotesque" is completely different than all his other works, and each of his other albums differs from each other slightly. Shock Rock and Alternative Rock/Metal are the only genres I believe should be given to Marilyn Manson. Oh and earlier when I said John 5 brought KMFDM influences, I meant Tim Skold, sorry. Nickoladze 23:05, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, Industrial rock is more fitting than Industrial metal; some influence is derived from heavy metal (Sabbath, Motley Crue) but as has been mentioned, if you compare them to bands from industrial rock & industrial metal, they are more closely tied to the former. - Deathrocker 17:57, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Well unfortunately, it isn't about what either of us think, but about what the sources say. Disturbed doesn't rap nor use turntables, but they are still classified as nu metal. And nu metal is not a derogatory term, it's the genre. Mallcore is the derogatory term you're looking for. I am not looking to attack Marilyn Manson's image or reputation by adding nu metal, but I was just fairly surprized when I saw that nu metal wasn't on there. And after quick research, I found out that nu metal is fairly often attributed to MM. I insist to add nu metal to the list. However, if it can make things better, I am willing to leave it at the bottom of the list and/or clarify in the introduction something like: "Marilyn Manson's genre is sometimes disputed: some sources label him as nu metal, but others as alternative" or whatever. But I think that the last proposition would compromise the quality of the introduction... It would be just simpler to add nu metal in the infobox. Zouavman Le Zouave _{(Talk to me! • O))))} 17:56, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Plus, as Deathrocker clearly pointed out, shock rock is not a musical form. Zouavman Le Zouave _{(Talk to me! • O))))} 17:58, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Alright go ahead then, doesn't matter. Nickoladze 18:02, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your cooperation ^^ Zouavman Le Zouave _{(Talk to me! • O))))} 18:09, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Marilyn Manson are no more nu-metal than Nine Inch Nails are... I think its fair to have the genres as "Industrial rock, Alternative rock" and maybe, Hard rock. The only connection they have to nu-metal is time-frame of success; they are not widley or historically regarded as part of that movement. There are numerous genres that the band has experimented with (1970s glam rock for example) that describe their musical characteristics more correctly than "nu-metal".

As mentioned further up on this talkpage[3] there is clearly heavy metal influence in this band's music (and that is already mentioned in the article)... but their own music style is more closely related to those in Industrial rock (KMFDM, Nine Inch Nails) the Reznor connections are obvious (he produced their most famous album) also White is currently playing in NIN.. Skold has played in both KMFDM and Manson; they are interlinked.

The situation of Marilyn Manson's genre in relation to heavy metal, is similar to that of Guns N' Roses, there is some influence from heavy metal; but they also drag more prominent influences from elsewhere making them more closely related to hard rock lineage. - Deathrocker 18:21, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I would definitely not classify Marilyn Manson as hard rock... Comparing his music to that of AC/DC or Led Zep is (in my opinion) a big stretch... And do you have better sources than Rockdetector that classifies Marilyn Manson as hard rock? Zouavman Le Zouave _{(Talk to me! • O))))} 18:43, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

His band was listed in, and he himself made an appearence on the "100 Greatest Artists of Hard Rock" documentary [4]. The 5 hour film also featured appearences from members of KISS, Aerosmith, Queen, Van Halen. - Deathrocker 19:19, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

If no one else shows any opposition, I guess you could add hard rock. But I still feel that nu metal should be added... Especially with such a reputated source like Rockdetector. Zouavman Le Zouave _{(Talk to me! • O))))} 19:29, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Rockdetector also list Cradle of Filth as Black metal; if we are going to start listing bands into genre they don't belong, just because of one source. Ignoring the facts of their musical characteristics... then I'm sure I can easily find one where Rage Against The Machine are described as nu-metal and we'll change that one too shall we?[5] - Deathrocker 19:47, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

"No, not some corporate giant (surprising how many people think it is!), just your average Heavy Metal fan, Garry Sharpe-Young. What is Rockdetector? Well, it’s an information service really, a place where fans and musicians can learn about Rock music past, present & future. I’m often asked Who? What? Why? So, here we go…" This is from rock detector's FAQ. So someone please tell me what makes this guy a "source" at all, he seems just like any of us except he has a site. If I had the time to make a site, does that make me a professional? I mean really, he listed HIM as goth rock! If you read his FAQ, he stresses more about how his "My thirst for knowledge of all things Metal". So even if we could say this guy is a reputable source, he clearly is limited in his knowledge of the entire landscape that is rock itself for metal is a small part of the grander genre of rock. So while I suppose he may be good at citing JUST metal bands (which would include marilyn manson, i admit)as he seems to mainly do work in that area (I will admit he said he had a magazine article), I do not think rockdetecter seems to be a good source at all. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.166.222.104 (talk) 00:14, 5 May 2007 (UTC).

Well Marilyn Manson is definitely more nu metal than hard rock! I would actually say that Marilyn Manson is mallcore, but since it is a derogatory term, it obviously shouldn't be used in here. As for COF, the genre is debated. I agree that it is not black metal (properly speaking). But I also think that the closest metal genre you can group them with is symphonic black metal. And for RATM, they have a pretty unique style, and it is understandable that the mainstream audience confuses RATM's style with that of other bands/artists they see on the same TV channels or hear on the same radio stations. You can also find sources indicating that Sonata Arctica is death metal and that Slipknot is brutal death metal... Rockdetector on the other hand, does a pretty good job at describing the bands' genres in a concise way. Zouavman Le Zouave _{(Talk to me! • O))))} 20:10, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Read the article on nu-metal, its cultural origins are stated as the mid-1990s; this band started in 1989. Korn are always stated as the originators of that genre by music critics, they didn't start until four years after Marilyn Manson, and have an entirely different musical sound.

Also for arguments sake, reading nu-metal's musical characteristics.. Rage Against the Machine are linked to nearly all of the ones listed, whereas Marilyn Manson are linked to less than half of them.

On your page you state clearly that you despise the band in question and even deride them as "mallcore" so why try edit an encyclopedic article on them, that is supposed to be neutral? Seems an odd thing to do. - Deathrocker 21:24, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I put my personal opinions on the side. I'm not trying to make this article less good (if I didn't care about the quality, I would've made a "debated genre" section), but I'm trying to include the genres that are noted by big sources. Rockdetector is a big source. Plus, Wikipedia is editable by everyone (as long as their edits are not ruining the encyclopedia), and I am pretty sure that includes people who are not fond of the subject. If you think I am being unfair and trying to ruin the article, you are making a wrong judgement. Nu metal is by no means a derogatory term and does not ruin the subject's reputation. I have read the article about nu metal. So you would put RATM in nu metal... I say that RATM does not have a specific genre shared by other bands. In the same way that Mr. Bungle or Faith No More doesn't. Zouavman Le Zouave _{(Talk to me! • O))))} 22:01, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

RATM, Faith No More, and Marilyn Manson all fit under the alternative metal genre. And, as pointed out, Marilyn Manson's breakthrough predates nu metal's by more than two years. As far as reliable sources, Allmusic uses alternative metal to cover early 90s bands as well as nu metal, but Marilyn Manson was a contemporary of the mid-90s alternative rock scene at its height, so "alternative metal" should be a fine enough labeling. WesleyDodds 12:08, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Oh well... I guess adding nu metal is not possible. :) Zouavman Le Zouave _{(Talk to me! • O))))} 09:12, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I'd have to say the band is metal, rather than rock. Antichrist Superstat, Holy Wood and GAOG are all way more metal than rock. Really they are a mix of Metal, Industrial, Glam, Rock and Goth, which they mix up in different proportions from album to album, or even song to song. The sentence about it being hard to categorise the band due to having influences from many genres is good, but I believe the opening sentence should read "Marilyn Manson is a metal band". Despite softening up a bit on Eat Me, Drink Me, their most popular stuff is clearly metal, a style they retained for a long time. TheEmpiricalGuy 13:56, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Since there is obvious debate concerning MM's genre(s), I would think it is legitimate to keep the first sentence vague (genre-wise). Since metal is a subgenre of rock, it is better to say "is a rock band" in the first sentence because metal is included in rock, but rock is not included in metal. Simple as that. Zouavman Le Zouave 16:36, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Hang on, it's back up as Metal again. I thought everyone had come to the consensus that we were going with rock, but mentioning they had a metal influence. Although IMO they are, for the most part, a metal band, there are parts, especially on EMDM that are not metal at all. Just wanna be clear on what's going on here. Also, should there be gothic listed somewhere? I know this is a matter of strong contention for some people, but manson himself has used the term in places... I'm not saying it should the main genre, just that there should be mention they often incorporate a gothic mood, more than actual music. TheEmpiricalGuy (talk) 10:02, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Nu metal

But doesn't Manson have some elements of nu metal in his music, because doesn't he have very few solos in his music, and elements of electronic instrumentation in his music. DavidJJJ 11:44, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually, he's listed as alternative metal by most sources. Nu metal has rapping (see Korn, Limp Bizkit or Slipknot), which is absent in Manson's work. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.217.37.15 (talk)

I'd just leave it with alternative metal - I think everyone can agree that it's a 'metal' sound, and not the traditional sound of bands like Metallica, Slayer, etc. The exact genre changes somewhat from album to album (GAoG was very much 'industrial metal'), but as a whole, alternative metal is the best, least controversial fit.

[edit] goth rock

Someone put goth rock back up. Come on, people I see this band listed next to other bands like KMFDM or whatever those letters are and rob zombie. Metal is metal, and goth rock is goth rock. They have a different path back from the eighties and further and have COMPLETELY different influences. I am taking it out.

On Eat Me, Drink Me there's a couple of gothish sounds, such as on that of "If I Was Your Vampire". The band's official MySpace also lists them as goth. "If I Was Your Vampire" is one of the only gothish songs on the album, other than that it's pretty much rock, most of it's upbeat rock too. R-Tiztik 20:22, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Although its still "unreleased" (you can't cite something intangible), and there are few sources on the album, I will argue that If I was your vampire is not the only goth sounding track (Goth cannot be characterized by lengthy crackling echoes only). The Band's myspace is a good source, but one could argue the summary for Marilyn Manson.com as "official website of heavy metal singer with the band of the same name". Marilyn Manson is a chameleon and it should be mentioned in the text (I believe it is already) and the genres should all be there, including "glam" "Industrial" "goth" "heavy metal" and "shock rock". styles that carry over albums are equally important.

[edit] Practicing satanist???

Im not sure if this is where I go to ask such questions, but is there any information available regarding Marilyns having been made an official satanic priest by Anton Lavey and his embrace or disancing himself from it after Antons death? Also I have heard that he embraces the republican party but cant find any info to validate this. These are both facts I got off of a political chat room, so I cant verify them, although VH1 DID say that Marylin was given preisthood status by Mr Lavey, they dont speak as to if he is still a member. jake

Manson does say that he was made reverend by AL in his book. I haven't read it in a while, so I can't give more details... --Julien 03:36, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Manson was made a Reverend by Anton LaVey, but this is a title of respect from the Church of Satan, and can be bestowed upon those who are not members. Manson is not a member of the CoS, nor is he a Priest, he simply was a fan of Anton LaVey's philosophy. Furthermore, Manson never HAS been a member of the CoS. -- CABHAN TALK CONTRIBS 04:32, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

The above answer is incorrect. "Reverend" is a title which spans several ranks within the CoS, including Priest. Manson is an official member of the CoS, and bears the rank of Priest.

As for embracing the Republican party, he's made statements in the past that could be taken that way (he supported Bush for President in 2000, but that was largely because Al Gore's running mate was his arch-nemesis Joe Lieberman), plus... well... he's rich. He's also made more recent statements opposing the Bush administration, so his political views are fairly ambiguous. --keepsleeping quit your job! slack off! 04:38, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

thanks of the info to all who contributedPickelbarrel 21:23, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

I was watching a documentary on Marilyn Manson and it claims that he has said publicly that he was Christian now. Is this true? TearAwayTheFunerealDress 16:23, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

If he did say that, it could be contributed to his sense of humour. Otherwise it would remove the point of his philosphies.... can you tell me what doco you were watching?

[edit] Possible fun

Something that I always found interesting, and seems to be a fairly popular myth is the "Marilyn Manson was the actor from the Wonder Years". Perhaps if someone feels up to it they can find a way to incorporate it.[6][7] Arkon 04:11, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

This is already in the article on Marilyn Manson the person (Brian Warner). This article is about the band. Mdhowe 08:46, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Absolutely fantastic". Is that objective?

Late influences have come from the absolutley fantastic literature and poetry of David Beckham, whose chameleon-like ability to shift from one style to another, replete with a new look and musical philosophy, was a characteristic which would also be frequently ascribed to Marilyn. --Bad carpet 17:24, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Not really, and I believe it should David Bowie not David Beckham.

[edit] Images

I have just looked throught the Marilyn Manson website and the content is great, however it is ruined by the many images which criss cross over the text, leaving boxes for images left blank while the image that is supposed to be in it sits across the other side of the screen. I am unsure of how to change the images and wont touch them incase it ruins it however this is all that is wrong with the page, once that is sorted it will work perfectly. --Slipdisk 21:45, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

The images appear okay in my browser (MSIE 6). It's likely the problem is with how your browser is rendering the page. --malber 21:57, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Speaking of images, is the photo of Marilyn Manson at the top of the article public domain? How does Wikipedia deal with image copyright issues? Thanks --mike

[edit] Marilyn Manson On The Internet - separate article?

Would it be worth creating a new article on Manson's website and the many updates as it looks like it will become irelevent here after a while and it's getting quite long. sorry i forgot to sign this --Jimmyjrg 10:22, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I think that's a good idea, his website has always been pretty elaborate, Meomega15 23:41, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Although this is an original idea, I do not think that creating an article about Marilyn Manson's website would be a good idea. Maybe adding a couple of smaller sections to the Internet section could help expand the section in an orderly manner. Zouavman Le Zouave _{(Talk to me! • O))))} 06:55, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I think it would be appropriate to create an article entirely about the website (marilynmanson.com). Goldenglove^{Contribs ·Talk} 08:56, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Record Label

Manson is no longer on Nothing and hasn't been for a long time now. This needs to be changed. I don't even think Nothing exists anymore in any real form.

Still, he was on them for quite some time, so they deserve to be mentioned.

Nothing Records is a subsidiary of Interscope Records. When Nothing Records closed, Manson went onto the parent label Interscope. LuciferMorgan 18:59, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] spooky kids

Marilyn Manson and the Spooky Kids should be a separate article, White Zombie and Rob Zombie are separate. Though I guess White Zombie had more comercial success, MM & Spooky Kids were charachters of their neighbourhood etc. Cadmiumcandy 14:25, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I think this is something that should be done, since they've also released several albums under the Spooky Kids name (White Trash, etc) as well as several demo tapes FinalDeathwish 09:10, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

In his autobiography, Marilyn (the person) says they just shortened the name because no one was using the full one. Same band, shorter name. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by To tough to die (talk • contribs) 19:35, 4 February 2007 (UTC).

White Trash was a Spooky Kids bootleg anyways. R-Tiztik 20:22, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

From what I know, Rob Zombie is a person/singer of fmr band White Zombie. Spooky kids were the same band(LHROH), songs by them that were not released as Marilyn Manson are still considered rarities/unreleased material. Now here's something tricky: Is "Lunchboxes and Choklit cows" a Manson album? It was remastered, released, and recorded by former member Scott Putesky and not by the current band. Perhaps a "compilation album" would suit it. These other "Several albums" are demos, not official releases.

[edit] Leno Appearance

http://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Article&newsitemID=60201 - The link has some info, though if you do a search on the site more info will be unearthed. LuciferMorgan 17:30, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Marilyn Manson Tag

Should the Marilyn Manson tag, {{Marilyn Manson}} be applied to previous members pages as well?

Yes, it's what's generally done with any band Nightmare X 06:01, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Is Manson a drug user?

I know is seems a stupid question, with his lyrics obivisuly referring to drug use, but if he's so open about his drug using, why hasn't be been busted?

He has been in the past. LuciferMorgan 23:46, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't know, we all know he at least drinks absinthe at this point, I doubt he's given up drugs, or at least I haven't heard anything of it. As for not being 'busted', it's not like he does them in public, and besides, song lyrics have nothing to do with things like that. Narcotics faerie 01:37, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Ahem, "Great Big White World" was about cocaine mister :) R-Tiztik 15:38, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

It's called a warrant, which they did have at the time of his autobiography (mentioned by him in an interview) but he claims they found nothing. He mentions previous usage, but never current or future use. In recent years he's alluded to, but not admitted to using them, such as saying he has use for straws. When asked in 2006 by mansonusa.com about his supposed opium den he changed the subject to "making it to my house", referencing his dislike for stalkers and "hunting" them when on his property. Absinthe is illegal only with opium in it, the drink itself isnt. His "drug" lyrics are often metaphors for love, his love songs are often metaphors for drugs, Manson is hardly ever direct in his messages or goes into explicit details about the meaning of a song.

[edit] Early Years timeline error

i'm a bit confused. The timeline states that everything related to Portrait of an American Family took pllace in 1993, but that the tour in which Sarah Lee Lucus was "fired" (tee hee) was in March of 1995. The article skips a whole year. If I recall correctly, Portrait was released in 1994, so maybe the author(S) simply got confused and wrote the wrong year down? Also, I don't know if the tourmates are right; the opening tour for NIN also had them playing for Hole, which isn't documented, and I can't remember if the proceeding tour was in fact with Danzig and KoRn. (Did they even exist as a band in 1995? I thought they were touring with Monster Voodoo Machine for the Smells Like Children EP...) Finally, I disagree with the wording of the section related to Sarah being released from the band: the way it's written it seems that Manson and Lucas had personal tension between them when in fact all that happened was that the band replaced him with a better drummer and just didn't want to tell him until the tour was over, and the drum set being set on fire was due to an unrelated incident involving someone throwing a bottle onstage.--sfrog 03:35, 26 Nov 2006 (PST)

The album was released in 1994, but recorded in 1993. Also there was personal tension between Manson and Lucas - read Manson's autobiography. (PS - If you have, then I suggest you read it again) LuciferMorgan 00:26, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox image

It skipped my mind that an infobox image has to be a free one. So if someone could find one of the whole band, that would be great. Stupid little things like infoboxes without images taint Featured Articles. -- Reaper X 22:11, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Citing books

When citing books, specific page numbers need to be cited on specific inline citations. This article currently does not do that. LuciferMorgan 13:43, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] sweet dreams link

The sweet dreams single link goes to the original eurythmics single.203.206.110.145 16:13, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

The original single has info on the new cover. It seems to be standard for Wikipedia (when Green Day and U2 did their cover of "The Saints are Coming" no new article was made, it was just added to the original article for the Skids' version). to tough to die 21:36, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

[edit] Incontinuity

The date Tainted Love was released on this page and on the Tainted Love page are different (says here 2002, and 2001 on the other page)

IF it matters whoever reads this could find out which is right, or leave it if both are somehow.

Sorry if I didn't do something right... 64.184.139.58 06:31, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

The "Tainted Love" single was released on March 18, 2002. R-Tiztik 15:33, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A note on GA status

I see that this article was at one time a Featured article or FA candidate. However, the article is not listed as a Good Article . As part of the Rock music WikiProject, it is suggested that an article achieve Good Article (GA) status before having it's candidacy re-newed. So be sure that points from any previous Features article candidate (FAC) archives and peer reviews are taken and applied to the article, and shoot for a GA nomination. Good luck! -- Reaper X 22:36, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Celebritarian rising: the new era (2006–)

Someone please update Celebritarian rising: the new era (2006–) since this is extremely out of date such references such "icluding a new song to be called "Rebels Without Applause" User:Padaz 2:06, 8 March 2007 Australia times

In an interview with The Heirophant, Manson was asked what was happening with the Celebritarian movement. Manson is still a member of this "Celebritarianism", but his music isn't currently going in that direction as all references to the Cross of Lorraine (the symbol of Celebritarianism) have been removed from the Marilyn Manson website, the Eat Me, Drink Me record has no references to Celebritarianism by any level, and Marilyn Manson himself stated this. My point here is that the heading "Celebritarian rising" doesn't seem to reflect the band anywhere beyond 2006, and so shouldn't this heading title be changed? It seems like starting a heading for the post-Celebritarian era would just make two small sections in comparison to the history sections above the "Celebritarian rising: the new era (2006–)" heading, but given the massive change in direction, it just doesn't seem classifiable under the Celebritarian section. R-Tiztik 15:33, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jennifer Zawaski

"He also takes much of his inspiration from the voluptuous Jennifer Zawaski." What does that even MEAN? Also it got no source. It was put here by: 19:20, 27 March 2007 Mza919 (Talk | contribs) (→Composition and songwriting) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 137.248.1.11 (talk) 17:43, 31 March 2007 (UTC).

Whoever posted that obviously has a soft spot for her. :)

URFG 16:00, 1 April 2007 (UTC)URFG

Yeah whatever:). Now who is that and how is it related to the band? I did a short google and all it came up with was some bodybuilder. I think it should be removed and also please someone tell me what is going on there?

Ok, I will remove the Zawaski line. Fun while it lasted but serslywtf.

[edit] WTF

Alright who the hell added the album cover of Eat Me, Drink Me...seriously where the hell are your sources? or did you just shop it or something? because there is no mention of it on the official site... ItsNotLupus 11:47, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I have removed it and nominated it for deletion. Almost certainly a fake. J Milburn 18:16, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

kudos to you sir ItsNotLupus 11:52, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] hmmm...

'Mariolyn Manson is a truly intelligent person. Though many have critisized him as "Satanic" "Horrible" And "disturbing". None of these morons have gone so far to look into what they call obscene.' erm...written by a 12 year old? This is certainly not NPOV by any stretch and certainly poor writing. How embarrassing!

Lol...He even spelled his name wrong. Makes me wanna cry ;-;72.241.165.155 02:20, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

"the last name of a mass murderer or a serial killer"

Same thing isn't it? Also it must be noted, Manson has never named Alice Cooper as an influence.- Deathrocker 05:36, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Nope. A mass murderer might kill a group of people in the same event. A serial killer reaches their total by killing one or two people at a time in several events over a long period of time. -- Mikeblas 22:16, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

It should be noted that Charles Manson is not a mass murderer or serial killer, rumored to have killed one person.

'them and their tapes to The Record Plant in Los Angeles, California where Manson peformed anal intercourse on goats and children before and after performing oral sex on himself'...excuse me?

Manson mentions Cooper as an influence in his book.

Where in his book does he mention him as an influence? He may have listened to his music, but does that warrant him as an influence? Not in my book LuciferMorgan 03:06, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Italic text"during a performance of the then-current single, "Lunchbox", he doused Lucas's drum kit in butane and set it ablaze — with Lucas still attempting to play on behind it.Italic text

I don't believe butane would have been used. Butane is a compressed gas. It would be somewhat difficult to set something like a drum set on fire with and impossible to "douse" something in it. It is more than likely that lighter fluid was used.

[edit] Fair use criteria

The use of images not in compliance with our fair-use criteria or our policy on nonfree content is not appropriate, and the images have been removed. Please do not restore them. — Κaiba 18:46, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] This is a bad bad bad article

Remove fan biased writings (The Hierophant and Nachtkabarett writers with no sense for perception of the casual reader.)

Replace every KMFDM with David Bowie ('rotating members'), as Marilyn Manson is not in the same universe as KMFDM, and as for Golden Age of Grotesque, clean that text. If 20 loud members on Hierophant, who think Manson should still perform Spooky Kids songs, think it's a bad album, that may not be true. Do by all means explain the sublimal depth of the album, but make it better.

Bring the old stories to 2007, keep only relevant ones, portay them as a part of a myth. Why are the stories still more important then fabulous depth Mr. Manson puts in everything he does (his marriage as an Celebritarian event), don't indulge.

Eat Me, Drink Me debuting number 2 on what chart? Billboard? Say it. Make it cleaner, clean the symbols, perfect the story, make it celebratory, so that people can eat and drink him.

you sound like a nutter! apologies for lack of manners but ...woop woop!

[edit] Removal of gothic rock

I do not care what an someone sees as "definitely gothic rock," that is a POV. Please see the discussion page on the album in question for a further explanation. Until than, I see more credible sources who write on gothic rock that exclude manson from gothic rock than ones that include. If you add it again, with the excuse that "it is definitely gothic rock" then I will report it as vandalism.

• Good faith edits cannot be reported as vandalism. Zazaban 08:13, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Name

A lot of the band members Wwikipedia pages use their real names instead of their stage names (Like Twiggy being on here as Jeordie White), so why not have Marilyn Manson's page (The person) be Brian Warner and have the band's page be just Marilyn Manson? I don't know how to change that or if it can be changed, but it seems like I should bring it up here.

[edit] Rock or Metal

Okay, either one or the other is used on MM articles across wikipedia, it's time we decieded which one is correct. Rock or Metal. I say it's defiantly Rock. Zazaban 23:37, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I'd also say that the band's music is Rock rather than Metal. 162.40.164.81 00:51, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Genres

We really need to settle on 2 or 3. We can't have seven up there! Zazaban 20:55, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Agreed... it may be helpful to list a couple genres in the main article. And, if appropriate, we could also note some of the varied genres within the articles of the respective album/era. Thanks. J. T. Lance 01:39, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Image

I've switched the image in the top right from a logo to a free image of members of the band twice now, and I want to explain myself here (I accidentally hit enter before I finished my edit summary the last time) so that I don't have to do it again. I think that the image in the top right should be of the band or members of the band, especially because many free license images are readily available, rather than a logo, because of obvious reasons. I also think that, although a picture of the full band would be preferable, I think that an image of Marilyn Manson (the person) alone would be acceptable as well, as he is both the namesake of the band and the one consistent member (Other examples of the sole consistent member of a band being pictured can be seen at The Cure and Nine Inch Nails). --Brandt Luke Zorn 18:47, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Olivia Newton Bundy & Zsa Zsa Speck

A number of anons are very persistently deleting these people from both this article and the template with absolutely no explanation. What can be done about this? Zazaban 23:18, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, that's true, i put this people almost 5 times, and ever delete them, why? i don't know... Maul day 08:34, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

On Manson's AMG page, they're not listed as members. [8] But I don't know enough about the band's history to say if they were members, though. Funeral 19:58, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Their names on on a cassette from the band's early days. They were members. link Zazaban 20:09, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

They're also briefly mentioned in Manson's autobiography. LuciferMorgan (talk) 00:53, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] What happen to the Soundtracks contributions

It gone. What happen to it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.191.91.213 (talk) 20:58, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Mmlogo.png

Image:Mmlogo.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 20:53, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Twiggy's Back

Could someone atleast find the original bulletin and add it here? or add it to my talk page please? Thanx.Mutlee (talk) 14:12, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

The message from the Goon Moon myspace page:

Thursday, January 10, 2008
beans have spilled

Jeordie is playing with manson again. Very exciting indeed.
DON'T WORRY, Goon Moon is still very much alive and still a band. You will be getting a full statement about all of this in the next few days.

Hope that helps?  Doktor  Wilhelm  14:18, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] gENRES

Just looking through page history, found a few quite plausable genres:

• Industrial metal
• Shock rock
• Experimental rock

What do you think? I'm not suggesting we put them up there in the infobox but maybe incorpate them into the article? Your thoughts please. Thanks for reading, ThunderMaster ^UTC 17:28, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Big Black

What the Hell? Daisy didn't introduce Manson to Big black, it was Pogo...I'm changing it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Buckdich1 (talk • contribs) 08:02, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Chris Vrenna

He really left marilyn manson? he appear as a former member in the template, and in his page it's noted that he parted ways with MM. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.180.154.180 (talk) 01:32, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Chris Vrenna has not left the band. If one reads the interview with Manson called Everyone Will Suffer Now on the Heirophant, he mentions that it is a misconception that Vrenna and Holliday are temporary members.Mattpaige (talk) 17:14, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Rob Holiday

He's left now? Anybody got a source for that one? Zazaban (talk) 20:28, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

You know, at the rate they're going I wouldn't be surprised if Manson left the band. :P Zazaban (talk) 21:31, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Rob Holliday has not left the band. If one reads the interview with Manson called Everyone Will Suffer Now on the Heirophant, he mentions that it is a misconception that Vrenna and Holliday are temporary members.Mattpaige (talk) 17:15, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Awards

I just noticed that NIN had their own awards section is allMutlee (talk) 20:15, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 7th Album Details

'Manson’s seventh album planned for a late 2008 release!'

Where did a late 2008 release date come from? I see no news source, or information anywhere on a possible release date. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.15.153.182 (talk) 17:49, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

It's called speculation. It's gone now. Zazaban (talk) 02:07, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I just added a reference from Kerrang! that, yes, it is planned for a late 2008 release. See here: http://www2.kerrang.com/2008/05/manson_new_album_is_very_viole.html 76.113.43.129 (talk) 03:49, 25 May 2008 (UTC)