Talk:Map–territory relation

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[edit] References

The article says that "the map is not the territory" was coined by Eric Temple Bell, but there is no reference. E. T. Bell was a supporter of Alfred Korzybski (AK), who used the expression, and may have been influenced by Lewis Carroll, as AK quotes Carroll's writings from Alice in Wonderland. The reference lacks support in the article. I'd like a specific reference to where and particularly when E. T. Bell said or wrote that. - JDF, August 10, 2005

I says it's been variously attributed. I didn't see references for AK either. Dawhitfield 01:10, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I changed it to variously attributed. 'The map is not the territory' appears in Korzybski's book, Science and Sanity, published in 1933, but I may be able to find earlier references. E. T. Bell is quoted in the back of the book praising Science and Sanity, and he had been a student of Cassius Jackson Keyser, who played a major role in editing Korzybski's tome, but nothing is said about Bell coining the phrase, and Korzybski was generous in acknowledging his sources. Also, one wonders how Bell could praise a book that quotes him, "the map is not the territory," but doesn't have the grace to acknowledge from where the quote came. - JDF, 16:36, 16 August 2005

OK, Bruce Kodish, who is writing a biography of Korzybski, found the correct reference, and I have read the original source and changed the entry. If anyone claims that E. T. Bell first coined the phrase, he or she will have to provide an earlier reference. - JDF, 14:10, 21 August 2005

I would suggest that the 'map-territory relation' is the subject of reflection in Samuel Taylor Coleridge's Logic, discussed in Part Two, Chapter One.: "....The mere wish of relieving the subject might be a sufficient apology if from the crowd that present themselves to the mind I select a trivial and ridiculous instance in preference, but in truth I have other and more serious purposes in view, and such preference forms part of my plan, for reasons which I shall hereafter explain. To the instance, however. A country squire, one of the reverend vegetables so exquisitely portrayed in the 86(th) No. of the Tatler, having for the first time left his home, far inland, for Ramsgate, had been further tempted to join a sailing party in a trip to Calais. From the state of the weather the opposite coast was invisible till within a league of Calais. Our worthy voyager still keeping his face toward old England, when all at once the mists dissolved and the French cliffs bursting on the view, the master of the boat turned him suddenly round, exclaiming: "There Sir! that's France!" "You don't say so", quoth the Squire, "That's France! and pray, which is Spain?" (...)[DM, 29 November 2005]

The originators of NLP have been explicit about their debt to Korzybski. Thus, the mention in connection with NLP should point out that tie. I think I'll go fix that... [ESR, 2 December 2005]

Carl von Clausewitz, the nineteenth century Prussian military theorist, is often attributed with originating the map/territory notion, however, I have failed to find a clean reference. Referring to either his contribution or our mistaken belief in his contribution would be worthwhile. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Srschwartz (talk • contribs) 15:06, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Content issues

This article needs some serious work - I'm going to add the cleanup tag in a second. The original (before the merge) content appears to be about 50% quotes from other sources, not original work. -Seth Mahoney 23:01, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Fair Use Image

I'm copying bit of this discussion from Sean Blacks talk page, having notified him of my intent a few days ago:

MB: Hi Sean. Regarding your edit here: Could you please let me know what part of WP:FUC you were thinking of when you removed the image? My understanding is that if it is out of context we cannot use the image. But is it really out of context? Doesn't it qualify as critical commentary on the work in question since the article is called The map is not the territory and the work is illustrating the same thing?

SB: Perhaps. But it's a borderline case, so it's probably best to just keep it as a link.

MB: Perhaps it's best to achieve consensus on this. I think it isn't borderline and it's almost a textbook example of when a fair use claim is appropriate. But then again I'm no lawyer. I'd like to copy our discussion to the talk page and ask for a 3rd opinion (or 4th and so on) on the matter.

AR: IMHO, there shouldn't be any deleting of images from templates in respect of the "fair use" issue without there being prior consensus on the interpretation and application of the fair use rules to the particular instance. --Aquarius Rising 03:49, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

I've reinstated the image temporarily. But I'd appreciate some more input from other editors. What are your thoughts? Can the image stay as fair use? ॐ Metta Bubble puff 06:31, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Try to comment about the image more, or send it to René Magritte. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) Fair use policy 06:56, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Tempshill 22:48, 26 Mar 2004 (UTC) says for this to be acceptable under fair use, "2. Its inclusion in the article adds significantly to the article because it shows the most famous work by this artist, illustrates his technical work, and gives probably the most famous example of representational surrealism."
  • IMO, the image illustrates an important point in a way that seems to satisfy fair use. Its probably best to get another opinion. --'c' 12:53, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
I really don't see what the image has to do with the article. --Phroziac ♥♥♥♥ 13:46, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
It is quite common for Korzybski "the map is not the territory" and Rene Magritte's surrealism to be to illustrate the same point that, "perception always interceeds between reality and ourselves". See for example, p.15-16 Visual Intelligence: Perception, Image, and Manipulation in Visual Communication by Ann Marie Barry(bio) --'c' 23:55, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Could you include this reference in the bottom section as per Zscout370's suggestion, if you have time. ॐ Metta Bubble puff 19:38, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that's it! That about wraps this up then. Thanks. ॐ Metta Bubble puff 11:08, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Simulcra Argument

About "map within a map": what's wrong with the idea? Consider fractals like the Mandelbrot set.

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"Today abstraction is no longer that of the map, the double, the mirror, or the concept. Simulation is no longer that of a territory, a referential being or substance. It is the generation by models of a real without origin or reality: A hyperreal."

The argument reflects a misunderstanding of the map-territory-scheme. The source(territory) of the simulation(map) is in the consciousness of the creator. If for example i create a videogame, then i first will have an idea about it(the source/territory) and then program the videogame(the map). But the videogame will not be exactly the same as my original idea of it. Creation allows us to "inject" maps into reality. The source of this reality-manipulation is our consciousness. Thus, creation is a map-territory relationship with exchanged roles(the source is "I" and the target is "reality"). Map and territory are *relative*! I am surprised that the author of simulcra did not understand this, since relativism is what the map-territory-scheme tried to describe in the first place. Then again, misunderstandings were to be expected, because the map-territory-scheme is incomplete: It does not account for perception AND projection, but instead only one of the two at a time - it does not allow to visualize an entire projection->reality->perception scenario - because its "scope" only reaches half of the way. - by Lyx - --82.141.51.61 23:03, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hyphen, dash, or slash?

Should this not, in fact, more properly be written as the “map/territory relation”? Binary opposition (/distinction). That postmodern slash and all. I'll change it in a few days if no one has any objection. Anonymous 57 19:30, 28 September 2006 (UTC)