Image talk:Map Indonesian religions.jpg

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Corrections to this map of Indonesian religions : Province of Maluku : majorly Protestant (Islands of Seram, Ambon, Haruku, Tanimbar, etc.) ; Province of North Sulawesi : >50% Protestant (Minahasa, Sangihe, Talaud) ; Province of West Kalimantan : some areas are Protestant and Catholic ; Province of Central Kalimantan : some areas are Protestant.

This map needs an overhaul. As an Indonesian, I never know that islands just across Riau area are predominantly Buddhist. Where are the Confucianists (they are acknowledged now as religion by the government, although in fact they call themselves "Tridharma", i.e."three confessions": confucianism, taoism, and buddhism followers), in Singkawang may be? North Sulawesi and Maluku predominantly ("modernist") muslim? And differing "modernist" and "traditionalist" muslim does not represent the dinamic of muslim in Indonesia recently (The fact is that new, and liberal, thoughts among the muslims in Indonesia come from "traditionalist" area shown in the map! Who are then the 'modernists'?). And, if separating Protestantism and Catholicism is considered dubious, then the muslim areas should be written in the same color, since all of them are Sunnites following the parallelity of Sunnite-Shiite. Never so separate in Islam between "traditionalist" and "modernist" are so wide like between Protestantism and Catholicism. Indeed, there is also need to differentiate 50-50 and 90-10 area (and maybe 30-30-40!). I put the same message earlier in Talk:Indonesia Archive 5. Kembangraps

[edit] This map is wrong

It is totally wrong.. If you live in Indonesia you'll know how wrong it is... There is no such thing like this... We're spreading! and java is not a tradional moslems! We live in harmony! We live together! Come on.. This map is ridiculous. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.161.81.219 (talk) 04:38, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A few small corrections

1) Java practices a post-war form of Islam as preached by the FPI, TNI, etc.
2) Aceh is traditional Islamic.
3) the west coast of Sumatra was majority Christian unless that population hass been replaced recently
4) central & eastern Sumatra were pagan
5) yes the southern Sumatra population has been replaced by Javanese settlers
6) Borneo is a Dayak/pagan territory
7) the northern half of the Celebes is mostly Catholic, some Protestant; southern Celebes is a mixed religious basket
8) Ambon and the Moluccass are a mix of Catholic & Protestant - which is WHY there were over two hundred Churches for Laskar Jihad to burn down between 1999 and Oct/2002 when the militia moved to Papua.
9) northern Papua is mostly Protestant, the highlands & south Catholic.
10) East Timor is Catholic
11) PNG is not Islamic but is a mix of Christian and pagan but no Islam or Hindu.
Apart from that the map looks fine, looks just like way people with a Jakarta education think the world is.
58.107.10.36 02:41, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your questions. The drawing is a good idea that clearly needs work. By the way, although you are of course under no obligations to explain, many wikipedians can be reluctant to reply to someone who is particularly anonymous, provides no reasoning for their motivations, or how they formed their interest or understanding of a subject. No problem for me (as you can see below) but it can be for others, particularly if I am correct in detecting a subtle amount of sarcasm in an otherwise perfectly valid (if not always correct) points. Anyway, the issue at hand…

This map has been discussed at the Indonesian talk page - probably now in one of the last 3 archives. GeneralThe map is not without its limits, but it does have its uses. It can only be used if one remembers that this is a listing of its religous majorities. Also, the terms "traditional" and "modernist" have caused some concern BUT, the groupings (regardless of their actual names) are valid. Traditional in this sense means traditional to Indonesia, not orthodox Islam (traditionalist in sense means the syncretic sometimes mystical islam of the abangan javanese). Modernist also means modernist to Indonesia (ie more recent) and is actually, the more orthodox Islam (as one might expect to find in the Middle East, for example). As I've said, this represents the majority, and of course there is more orthodox "modernist" Islam in Java - ie, the santri. The terms and their meanings often get mixed up, but they are used in this way in a number of places. But, the groupings themselves are valid, even if their names are mixed up. Perhaps we need well-referenced articles on both linked from the image.!!

As for your specific concerns it seems that some modifications could be order. But this depends on (a) copyright issues (do we need to recreate from scratch?), and (b) are we technical ability to actually mark up the drawing. I don’t think I have the ‘know-how’.

1) Java practices a post-war form of Islam as preached by the FPI, TNI, etc.

”post-war form of islam”? I’m not sure what that means? Could you elaborate or reference? Do you mean FPI as in the hardline Islamic Defenders Front and TNI as in the Indonesian military. They seem like an odd partnership. Or maybe I’ve got my abbreviations mixed up. One fault with the java section – if my understanding is correct – is that Sunda (West Java) is actually probably more “modernist” than “traditionalist” (in contrast to East and Central Java)Merbabu 03:32, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

2) Aceh is traditional Islamic.

See my general points above about the use of the terms “traditionalist” vs. “modernist”. Yes, Islam in Aceh as far as I understand is certainly orthodox. Maybe the two terms above work better when describing Islam in Java.Merbabu 03:32, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

3) the west coast of Sumatra was majority Christian unless that population has been replaced recently

OK – as much as I’d like to take your word for it, wikipedia needs references. Then if confirmed, the next step would be to find someone who can actually update the image.Merbabu 03:32, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

4) central & eastern Sumatra were pagan

pagan? Well, we all know that every Indonesian is one of 6 religions. ;-) Seriously though, they at least are nominally belonging to one of the six. You say “were”? What about now? Merbabu 03:32, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

5) yes the southern Sumatra population has been replaced by Javanese settlers

Could you elaborate?Merbabu 03:32, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

6) Borneo is a Dayak/pagan territory

Do you have references? Merbabu 03:32, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

7) the northern half of the Celebes is mostly Catholic, some Protestant; southern Celebes is a mixed religious basket

Yes, I understand the Minahasa are predominantly Christian. Again, maybe a change is needed. Any reliable references? Oh, the accepted English name is Sulawesi nowadays. Celebes I understand is like the name Peking.Merbabu 03:32, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

8) Ambon and the Moluccas are a mix of Catholic & Protestant - which is WHY there were over two hundred Churches for Laskar Jihad to burn down between 1999 and Oct/2002 when the militia moved to Papua.

Maluku in general is a mix of Islam and Christian that is a lot more evenly balanced than say Java. As for the ‘’’actual majorities’’’ in each particular region, it may nee further study. To my understanding the north is more Islamic, the south more Christian. What is the link between the Ambon troubles and Papua?03:32, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

9) northern Papua is mostly Protestant, the highlands & south Catholic.

Could be. Any references? Again, the question of how to change it. Merbabu 03:32, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

10) East Timor is Catholic

East Timor is not Indonesian and hence grey (and thus PNG should also be grey). As for West Timor is it Catholic? Merbabu 03:32, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Dear Merbabu, I agree with your critical questions to the correction suggestions written by 58.107.10.36. They contain inaccuracies and loaded with prejudice. For example, "the west coast of Sumatra was majority Christian unless that population has been replaced recently". "Replaced recently"? Since the colonialism era the place was traditionally muslim and still is. The islands west of Sumatra, he meant? The Mentawais were pagan until came Christian priests after the independence, and later muslim clerics. The Nias were pagan but are now predominantly Christian. But in no time the "replacement" took place.

I apologize if my comment before is considered sarcastic. I just want to mention in a brief way many erroneous presentation in the map, which may lead to misperception (like 'modernists' term. I personally prefer 'purists' to call them). Of course, any map will be helpful to simplify presenting things. The problem is, the distribution of religion in Indonesia is not so simple. Let me show you one example. You wrote "this is a listing of its religious majorities". But, then, in which level? Provinces, or regencies (kabupaten)? In certain areas the grouping refer to regencies (like Toraja for instance), but in West Java, Maluku, Central Sulawesi? I do not have capability also in changing the picture. The map now looks better. It still needs, however, "refinement". Access to the "Sensus Penduduk" from BPS may be helpful. Kembangraps 14:40, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Ignoring the slurs by Kembangraps, over two thirds of the Batak are still Christian and it is sad that some person has seen fit to paint them as a minority in their own country, some 68% of North Sumatra according to Jakarta's 2005 figures; so too the 75% of Maluku who are Christian if you accept the Maluku claims or 51% Christian if you accept Jakarta's 2005 figures but which have been painted again as "Modernist Islam" on the map. The same total disregard for the Dayak who are neither Christian nor Muslim of any kind. Of course the "repleacement" I was referring to would be related to both the Laskar Jihad and similar ethnic cleansing in Sulawesi, Maluku and Papua as well as the ongoing transmigration programs to send Islamic settlers to these provinces.58.107.10.36 15:31, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] My Proposed Corrections

- The Aru islands have a Christian majority.(BPS - [1]) Perhaps someone else can find whether Catholics or Protestants are in the majority.

- Ambon has a population that is slightly less than half Protestant and 6% Catholic with the rest being Muslim.

- The map notes the 200,000 Hindus in Central Kalimantan but not the 300,000 Protestants in the same province. Similarly, it does not note the 1.35 million Protestants/Catholics living in West Kalimantan.[2]

- I thought Tenggerese (East Java) were Hindu, not Buddhist.

69.155.228.96 01:36, 25 December 2006 (UTC)