Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive (sexuality)

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Terminology

I'm not sure the style guide is the place for that... wouldn't that be something for an article on terminology? Snowspinner 23:39, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
I also object to making this a style manual matter. According to the article on gay, According to the Safe Schools Coalition of Washington's Glossary for school employees: "Homosexual: Avoid this term; it is clinical, distancing and archaic. Sometimes appropriate in referring to behavior (although same-sex is the preferred adj.). When referring to people, as opposed to behavior, homosexual is considered derogatory and the terms gay and lesbian are preferred, at least in the Northwest.
Of course, "clinical and distancing" is the style many people think we should be aiming for. Moreover, the unspoken POV in all of this would appear to be that homosexuality is normal and acceptable, that to want to be "distanced" from it a sort of prejudice, and that moral distaste to homosexuality, or at least to the identity politics subtext of this passage and the general discussion, are "archaic." This is a POV that we should not endorse, at least not in a style manual. Smerdis of Tlön 01:18, 6 May 2004 (UTC)
The problem is that sexual orientation is not currently a pathology - the term originated at a point when sexual orientation was something that was considered an illness. As sexual orientation is not considered a pathology by any reputable sources anymore, and is instead an identity, the term is rejected because it describes a condition - not an identity. Snowspinner 01:42, 6 May 2004 (UTC)
It seems that what you, Smerdis, are arguing for is terminology which does distance gay people, that does treat them clinically, and that anything which does not is POV. Hyacinth 03:54, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

The idea that sexuality is an identity rather than a condition is pitiful. I pity anyone so wretched, ensnared by the pleasures of the flesh that they find their self-identity in it. We are humans, not copulators. Homosexual describes an act, which is all I am intending to refer to when I use the term, not all this "cultural" business. Gay and Homosexual are separate articles, and rightly so. One is a term describing a phenomena, and the other a slang term for a sub-culture. Sam Spade 06:09, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

Your objection seems to be an ethical one with contemporary Western culture much more than a stylistic one, then. That said, I think you're wrong to assume that people have only one identity. That is to say, I know of no one who's sexual orientation, or even larger sexual identity makes up the whole of their being. But it is a part of people's identities. And when describing that part of people's identities, it is more than a little arrogant to declare what that identity is called. After all, it is their identity - our job is just to describe it. Not dictate it. Snowspinner 14:44, 6 May 2004 (UTC)
Some folks think homosexuality is an identity; others a sickness; others a sin. I don't think that we should crown any one of these positions as TRVTH and the others as error, especially through the somewhat underhanded method of adopting a terminology rooted in one particular POV and making it part of a style manual. Perhaps, instead, we could all just agree to refer to homosexual acts as the abominable and detestable crime against nature, and to homosexuals as sodomites. These terms with an implied agenda strike me as no less objectionable than the proposed terms with an implied agenda, and for the same reason. -- Smerdis of Tlön 13:58, 6 May 2004 (UTC)
Well, OK, so long as we're adopting "niggers" instead of "African Americans", "wetbacks" instead of "Mexican Americans", and "towelheads" for "Arabs." Oh, and we should change all references to "left-wing" to "pinko." After all, to some all of these are accurate and appropriate descriptions of the groups.
There's a difference and you know it. (if you were objecting to "homosexual"... if you were objecting to "sodomite", you need a sarcasm transplant -Random832 23:30, 2004 Jun 14 (UTC)
My point being that it is an accepted guideline in scholarly writing that you avoid offending people, and that you call groups by the name which they desire to be called by. There are lots of terms for lots of things. When dealing with groups of people, the convention is to err on the side of not offending the group of people being described. And so we use the word "gay," even if it offends conservative Christians. However, we avoid using the word "bigoted asswipes" to describe them, for more or less the exact same reason. Snowspinner 14:44, 6 May 2004 (UTC)
A better analogy: Saying that respectful terms are unacceptably non-neutral is like arguing that "Canada" is a POV term for what really is the "Evil Northern State," because some people think that it is a as-of-yet-to-be-incorporated/conquered US state. Hyacinth 15:07, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
You are avoiding my point, which is that homosexual describes an act, wheras gay is ambiguous, and positive. As far as erring on the side least offensive to the group in question, that reasoniung didn't work very well for Racialism, which now redirects to racism, even tho most of those folks prefer to be called racialists, and see racist as offensive and POV. What I see is the typical Left-wing Politically Correct POV of academia creeping in, and attempting to uproot NPOV with what it see's as a higher purpose. Were the demographics here on the wiki more Representative, this wouldn't be a problem, but unfortunately, particularly in places like Wikipedia:WikiProject Sexology and Sexuality, the wiki demographics are FAR from representitive of our fearless readers, and worse yet, fail them with violations of neutrality such as this, style guides or no. Sam Spade 17:57, 6 May 2004 (UTC)
I agree with you on Racialism, for what it's worth, and I'm happy to enter that fight and put the article back - I think it was a reasonable article, and a term that ought to be explained. That said, the standard for academic and professional writing is politically correct. I'm sorry that you dislike PC, but I think it does Wikipedia a great disservice to use something other than the accepted styles of academic and professional writing. It makes it look, well, amateurish. If we want to be treated as a real encyclopedia, we need to act like one. And that means PC language. Snowspinner 18:11, 6 May 2004 (UTC)
Well what can I say to that? Obviously the wikipedia is not the place to fight popular changes of usage or meaning, and apparantly I can't even chide you for inconsistancy ;) I will use "homosexual" to describe acts (as rarely as possible, I should hope!) and "gay" to describe the sub-cultural identity. Is that acceptable to you? Sam Spade 18:17, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

Going left again because I'm on a 12" powerbook and it hurts my eyes to count the colons. That works. I'll wade into the racialist issue in a bit. I have to consult edit history, and see what's in Racism now that may need redirection. Snowspinner 18:32, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

One large concern with enforcing language based on 20th century identity politics is that it raises a serious problem with anachronism. Though many ancient Greeks and Romans had homosexual sex, it strikes me as a bit odd to refer to any of them as "gay." (Well, maybe Hadrian). I've recently written on Richard Burton's odd theory of the Sotadic zone; he said in essence that homosexuality --- specifically pederasty ---- was concentrated in a mostly tropical belt; not sure it works at all to say "gayness" was concentrated there. Smerdis of Tlön 20:01, 6 May 2004 (UTC)
This is something plenty of people are aware of - the identity "homosexual" is a 19th century creation. This objection has been raised several times on various lists of historical gay figures. Ultimately, it becomes a factual error to refer to historical figures as homosexual, gay, or as any other contemporary sexual identity, and should be avoided - regardless of terminology. Snowspinner 20:18, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

I agree. When we review history or even just non-western sociology/anthropology, it doesn't take long to realize that contemporary PC terms regarding sexuality (and everything else ;) are intellectually offensive encumberances. That being said, snowspin made a pretty valid case for the wiki needing to conform to popular style guides. I would love to hear a clarion call of truth, and if you (or anyone, of course) has an alternate style guide, or a sound reasoning for ignoring all style guides, etc.. so much the better. As you point out above, in reality homosexuality has been far from a "identity" or subculture in most of history, and was mainly rather a severely unorthadox (by most of todays standards) way of educating boys in the ways of adulthood, or a form of promiscuity engaged in by some. There is very, very little evidence for organized or distict "gay" societies or organizations historically, altho there are some (the kama sutra mentions the role of male bath attendants, for example). Sam Spade 20:28, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

Off topic: The first recorded case of someone coming out is actually fairly recent (can't remember exactly, an Italian boxer declared himself a sodomite), though the existance of the various identies now called Two-Spirit, along with theories that society always treats minorities as lesser or greater than the majority would tend to prove you wrong on this one. Hyacinth 15:07, 7 May 2004 (UTC)

I can't believe that anyone could think gay is a positive term, obviously you all didn't grow up gay! For many people born since 1970 gay means stupid, at best. Hyacinth 15:07, 7 May 2004 (UTC)

APA gay?

Yikes Sam, did you call the APA gay? Hyacinth 22:46, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

No, he called them homosexual. Remember, there's a difference. ;) Snowspinner 22:48, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
LOL... you guys got a laugh out of me on that one, I will admit :) Sam Spade 23:32, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

from article

' Avoid the use of queer (or any term) as being most inclusive '

What is this supposed to mean? It needs reworded, or removed. Sam [Spade] 20:06, 15 May 2004 (UTC)
It means that the term "queer" should not be used as a term that encombasses gays, lesbians, bisexuals, transsexuals, etc. And furthermore, that no other term is an adequate substitution, that is, that there is no good way to encompass all of these things into one umbrella term. Snowspinner 20:08, 15 May 2004 (UTC)
What does this mean: "Avoid homosexuality and thus heterosexuality," ...? How do I avoid heterosxuality, it's what I am!!! Perhaps you mean: "Avoid "homosexuality" and thus "heterosexuality"," -- the words. But even so, why? Whatr is wrong with the word "heterosexuality"? -- Tarquin
He justifies these by a number of style guides which he claims suggest against the use of the term "homosexual" as being distressing to some. I find it incredibly poor reasoning, and requested a poll before. Perhaps its time for one now. Sam [Spade] 20:23, 15 May 2004 (UTC)
It's rather more than "suggest." It's more "Clearly says these terms are not preferred." And, again, I hardly see how reference to a style guide is "incredibly poor reasoning." Particularly when it's the APA guide, which is the guide most applcable to this particular issue, being the leading style guide in the social sciences. Snowspinner 20:28, 15 May 2004 (UTC)

Transexuals

This came up on IRC w/ regards to arcticles like Brandon Tina - what pronoun do we use for transsexuals? Pretty much everyone agrees that post-op transsexuals should be called by their preferred/physical gender, but what do we do use for pre-op transsexuals, where the physical and preferential genders differ? Should an M->F transsexual be called a he or a she? Either way we go, it's POV and factually debatable, so we might as well make a uniform policy. Snowspinner checked other manuals of style but found no reference we could use (does anyone else have one?). →Raul654 17:58, Jul 7, 2004 (UTC)

If we try to go legally, we run into some difficutlies. In the US, some states allow sex changes on the birth certificate, others do not. Britain appears to have passed the Gender Recognition Act 2004, which would allow legal change after two years of transition - surgery not required. What would people think of this criterion, then? After two years of living in a gender identity, the pronoun is used? Snowspinner 18:13, Jul 7, 2004 (UTC)
It's always good policy to call people what they want to be called; I don't see a particular need to have a time limit. If a person identifies as a particular gender, then we should use the appropriate pronoun in referring to him or her. In other words, it's not up to us to decide what gender a person is. Anyway, in Wikipedia it should be clear enough from the article. In the case of Brandon Teena, the article is actually very badly written, but with a bit of editing it would be perfectly clear what his circumstances were, and it's quite acceptable to refer to him as male, since that was what he himself did. Exploding Boy 23:56, Jul 14, 2004 (UTC)

Homosexuality

Moved from article

  • Sexuality

Avoid homosexuality and thus heterosexuality, use alternatives such as gay/lesbian/bisexual/straight/same-sex/different-sex. Avoid the use of queer (or any term) as being most inclusive.

What is this about? homosexuality and heterosexuality are the proper medical/biological terms, the rest of the above are pop-culture/alt-culture jargon. I don't hear the word gay used any more often than fag, and both are POV. Homosexual and heterosexual are the precise, clinical terms, regardless of what is seen on "queer eye for the straight guy". Sam Spade 19:34, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
The problem is that they're medical/biological terms, and thus carry the implication of being a pathology instead of an identity. Snowspinner 19:36, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Once again: By "medical/biological terms" did you mean the medicine and biology of the last or next to last centuries or of this one? Consult, for instance, the American Psychological Association: http://www.apastyle.org/sexuality.html. Hyacinth 19:46, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

I think the ruling of the APA is pretty much solid when talking about this issue - I've put the passage back in, with an added citation of the APA guide. Snowspinner 20:02, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
Did you bother to read that link? "Because no universal agreement exists on terminology, and because language and culture continually change, the ideas in this article should be considered helpful suggestions rather than rigid rules." And even if it were describing "rigid rules", who says the APA dictates wikipedia content? I find the APA to be generally wrong, and I'm a psyche major ;) Sam Spade 20:13, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
I've consulted MLA, Chicago, and APA guidance on this - APA guidance is cited by MLA in terms of unbiased language, whereas Chicago remains silent on the usage. Regardless, there is clear precedent for using external styleguides to determine the style guide for Wikipedia. Unless you can find a current style guide that argues for heterosexual and homosexual as the preferred words, I think APA pretty much stands, and a poll is unnecessary. Snowspinner 20:29, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
I refer you to the following quote from the article: "If you are faced with a fine point, please use other resources, such as The Chicago Manual of Style (from the University of Chicago Press) or Fowler's Modern English Usage (from the Oxford University Press)." The APA is one of the most-cited publication guides, with many disciplines requiring its usage. And the most recent APA Publication Manual does say not to use those terms. I think that's pretty much definitive. This is not an issue of disagreeing with the APA, but with accepted style for an academic discipline. If we don't use widely accepted style guides, what would we use? Snowspinner 20:34, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
FWIW, straight is a disambiguation page that points to heterosexual. The problem with the neologisms goes beyond gay. Smerdis of Tlön 20:59, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
It should probably be changed to straight (sexual orientation) or something along those lines. Snowspinner 21:00, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
If one has a problem with the APA one could also consult the The Guardian style guide the Newswatch Diversity Style Guide and I imagine other sources, and they would all suggest one should not use homosexual. Hyacinth 21:38, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
Actually, I could not find anything in the Guardian style guide, except "gay: use as an adjective, eg "gay bishops", "gay people", rather than a noun ("gays") where possible, though "gays and lesbians" is OK." Personally, I am surprised to hear that "homosexual" carries more negative connotations than "gay", but I'm happy to follow the APA recommendation unless somebody points out a guide controdicting them. -- Jitse Niesen 10:58, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)
As a note, the quote referenced about guidelines, at least in the APA manual I have in front of me, applies to three guidelines earlier in the chapter than the section on sexual orientation. The sexual orientation section is part of the same larger section on biased language, but it is not one of the three guidelines marked - the APA is clear that the preferred usage is not homosexual or homosexuality. Based on Hyacinth's production of two further styleguides, I'm putting the section back in until some source indicating a reason for deletion is actually provided beyond one person's personal experience. Snowspinner 21:49, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

A physical act may certainly reasonably be described as "homosexual" (v. "gay") or "heterosexual" (v. "straight"). However, I'd really hesitate to use the word "homosexual" in terms of a person's identity. It's too strongly associated with a century or so of categorizing same-sex orientation as pathology. "Heterosexual" to describe a person seems less tinged, and "straight" too ambiguous -- drugs, honesty -- so I wouldn't hesitate to call a person "hetrosexual," so insofar as we need to use these words to refer to people, I'd actually opt for the (admittedly asymetric) "gay" and "heterosexual." -- Jmabel 01:26, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

Regarding historical figures before the word gay became common usage, although its appropriate to say "Elton John is gay", but Oscar Wilde was homosexual; its all about self-identification. 144.32.132.230 20:49, 15 May 2004 (UTC)

I actually agree that it is probably more historically correct to call Wilde "homosexual" than "gay", but (1) self-identification is not exactly the issue: I don't think he ever used the term, and he was a married man with children and (2) what, then, do we call people from a period any earlier, when the term "homosexual" had not been invented, and where same-sex practices were not usually seen to constitute an identity? -- Jmabel 02:43, 16 May 2004 (UTC)

I think you refer to them as having had gay male experiences, as having preferred men, etc. i.e. you simply describe their behavior instead of ascribing an identity to them. Snowspinner 03:27, 16 May 2004 (UTC)

After all of this discussion, our MoS still says (without qualification on the historical issues, etc.), "Avoid using the words homosexuality and heterosexuality...", etc. I'm not very active in the Manual, I honestly don't feel like I should be editing it (I imagine all of these issues are very fraught), but I'd sure appreciate if someone would edit it to reflect some of the nuances in the conversation above. -- Jmabel 16:09, Aug 13, 2004 (UTC)

Poll

I suggest a poll on this matter, one which specifically outlines style guidelines for the wikipedia sexuality project. Sam Spade 20:16, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

I find a poll unnecessary. I added the sexuality section April 6th (at the latest, I can't figure out revision histories) and there were no objections until you decided to cut. Thus you are the only one who disputes the guideline, and you have provided only one reason with no references, sources, or documentation. However, you are right to point out that &;quot;no universal agreement exists on terminology, and...language and culture continually change." I suggest the guideline indicates that pluralism is necessary and beneficial as being more neutral. Hyacinth 22:56, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
I do think a poll is necessary, but in the short term finding a better rewording will have to suffice. Something that makes it clear there is a diversity of opinion on the subject would do nicely. Sam Spade 23:34, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

There should be consensus on the manual of style. The section is question is far from having a consensus - it was controversial when itw as added, and it remains so today. In IRC, not one gay person there out of about a half dozen found "homosexual" offensive. I think the section should be removed, and I am going to do it unless someone gives me a good reason not to. →Raul654 16:56, Aug 13, 2004 (UTC)

No one responded so I've gone ahead and removed it. →Raul654 18:16, Aug 14, 2004 (UTC)

I think there may be some basic confusion over the -ity suffix form of the terms as was used in the article. It seems to me that homosexuality and heterosexuality are appropriate when discussing the concept in whole, while specifically referring to someone as a homosexual or heterosexual may be less preferred than using gay man, straight person, etc. Maybe it is just a question of rewording the section a little differently? func(talk) 20:31, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

FWIW, I'd say that deeming someone "gay" is generally taken to imply a lot more about them than saying that they are homosexual, as the terms are generally understood in the UK, at least. This might be a British/American thing, though...
James F. (talk) 21:23, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)