Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)

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Binary prefixes
Units of measurements
Years and dates
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Years and dates archives

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[edit] Archived part

I've put archive tags around it. This was a rather old part of the discussion, wasn't it? Propose to make a fresh start, if someone feels like reactivating that part of the discussion. --Francis Schonken (talk) 21:58, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

  • I can’t find this in the archives. Where is it? And if it is in an archive, why is it here again? Greg L (talk) 23:15, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
    • Don't know. I neither took it away from this page, neither brought it back. I only put the archive tags around it. --Francis Schonken (talk) 06:35, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Sequence of events:

Thunderbird2 (talk) 07:33, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

  • I archive it to /Archive 102 leaving a transclusion inside the discussion box ... and stick it in a lovely lime show-hide box ... hope this is okay for everyone. JIMp talk·cont 01:49, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

If it's archived, then it's archived. No need to have it here too. Headbomb (ταλκ · κοντριβς) 02:28, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

So be it. JIMp talk·cont 02:45, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Year ranges... spaced or unspaced? – or –?

Should the endash in date ranges be spaced or unspaced? It says unspaced in the "Dates" section of the MoS but both occur in the "Dates of Birth and Death" section (including the Darwin example which is the basically the example everybody actually looks at to see what the standard is!). Also is there a preference for the "–" character vs the control code "–" (–)? It seems to me that the control code is better. The MoS uses both so it seems like there's no policy. I think there should be one. Jason Quinn (talk) 01:34, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

En dash in ranges is unspaced, so I don't see why it should be different for year ranges. Either – or – are fine (just make sure the – is a – and not a hyphen - or an em dash — or a minus sign −) Headbomb (ταλκ · κοντριβς) 03:46, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Then the MoS Dates and Numbers source about this needs to be edited to conform to it. A sentence should also be added to the "Dates of Birth and Death" section about the endash being unspaced because many people will not read the whole section and just the birth and death sub-section. I also propose that a new guideline explicitly states that the character and control code are both acceptable for the endash in date ranges. Jason Quinn (talk) 15:31, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Either spacing is fine; either presentation is fine (one reason to use &endash; is to be sure you have the right dash; on the other hand, the character is easier to understand and edit in edit space); and any editor who goes about flipping them en masse should be warned not to be disruptive. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:44, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Either spacing is not "fine": the guidelines are quite clear that en dashes representing "from -> to" are unspaced where both items themselves contain no internal spaces (1980–85), but are spaced where there's a space within one or both items (3 August 1980 – 13 June 1985). Otherwise, the visual effect is worse than untidy, and in the second case, possibly misleading. TONY (talk) 03:45, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Tony is correct. What he is saying is perfectly consistent with the dominant manuals of style and is widely considered to be the correct way of doing things. Greg L (talk) 04:08, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Change to GB ref

During May, "(decimal)" was added: "A typical advertisement for a PC in 2008 might specify 2 GB memory (binary) and a 160 GB HDD (decimal)." I'm just checking that it means something; I have no idea. I guess I'll add non-breaking spaces between the units and values. TONY (talk) 03:40, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

The binary means that the giga- is the binary sense, 230 (10243); the decimal that it's the decimal, 109 (10003). JIMp talk·cont 04:33, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, Jim. Of course. I'm a dummy. TONY (talk) 08:28, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] automatic archiving?

This page is now humungously big, and must be hell to navigate for anyone on a dialup connection. Dank55 has kindly added an archiving robot to MOS talk, and I've asked him whether he'll do the same for FLC talk, where they like the idea a lot. Does anyone object to this? At MOS talk, it automatically archives any section that hasn't been touched for 10 days. Is that the right duration for here? TONY (talk) 03:49, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

I thought MiszaBot_II already did archiving here? Talk page is unusually big because of the rewrite of section 4. I think it's about to be resolved so a lot of it should be archived soon. Headbomb (ταλκ · κοντριβς) 04:10, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Tony: thanks for shortening the time to archive. I was unable to load the page at all earlier today, but it seems OK now.
To avoid a recurrence, it might be helpful to split up the Talk onto 4 separate pages (main page + one page for each of the 3 coloured boxes). That would certainly help me. Thunderbird2 (talk) 16:27, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Curly quotation marks are not permitted by MOS

  • If anyone persists in using them in MOSNUM, I'll revert immediately. If you have a problem, go argue it out at the main page of MOS, which says: "The exclusive use of straight quotes and apostrophes is recommended. They are easier to type in reliably, and to edit. Mixed use interferes with searching (a search for Korsakoff's syndrome could fail to find Korsakoff’s syndrome and vice versa)".

At the moment, MOS requires words as words to be rendered in italics, not quotes. There's now a clash between this and the (disputed) point here that SI symbols must always be in roman face. This needs to be sorted out. TONY (talk) 04:47, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

  • Yes, you're right. The inconsistency between MOS and MOSNUM should be tackled. It is important for unit symbols to be upright though; in mathematics and numerical sciences, there is a long tradition of reserving italics for variable names. Suggestions anyone? Thunderbird2 (talk) 16:20, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Headbomb: I see that you've italicised some of the unit symbols. How is that compatible with

In accordance with the rules of CGPM, NIST, National Physical Laboratory (UK), unit symbols are in upright, roman type.


and the (hidden) comment i.e. they are never italic; where they could be mistaken as symbols for dimensions, variables or constants? Thunderbird2 (talk) 18:04, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
  • They were italicized because they needed to be highlighted. They were between quotes before, but in some places quotes were cumbersome. The usage is similar to writing "A triquark is a particle made of three quarks". The italics on kg is compatible with MOS because it is not used as a symbol, but as a word. The only place I kept quotes was in the point about italics, so people could distinguish what to do from what not do to. Headbomb (ταλκ · κοντριβς) 05:51, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Headbomb, I don't understand your explanation. We need to think this through more carefully, and attempt to address Tony's concern about consistency with MOS. Thunderbird2 (talk) 18:17, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
  • I don't think I give a shit about CGPM, NIST and the NPL. We've had this argument before, and it was unresolved. I go with Noetica's view that there's no good reason to make some god-given exception to our usage of italics everywhere else on WP (see MOS on italics), just because a few outside authorities, without stated reason, want SI units to be exclusively roman. I used quotes in my recent clean-up of MOSNUM in deference to the current rule, which was inserted, I believe, without proper consensus. You can see how ugly and hard to read they are, and in the case of degree symbols (the little superscript circles), quotes make it almost impossible to see the symbol. We have to mark "words as words" some way, and italics seems the obvious solution, as prescribed by MOS. TONY (talk) 08:25, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Tony, there is a reason for it, which I gave in my first post just above. Whether the reason is considered good enough is another matter. In what sense was the change here made without consensus? Thunderbird2 (talk) 18:13, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Curly (typographers) quotes look much better than straight quotes; that’s why they’re also called “typographers’ quotes.” All professionally produced literature use them. They are not routinely used on Wikipedia only because the Windows operating system makes it so cumbersome to employ them. Further, many volunteer editors to Wikipedia wouldn’t recognize the difference between an hyphen and an emdash so the wise thing to do is to just let them pound the ol’ " key. So it makes sense to permit the use of straight quotes on Wikipedia, especially in articles that are currently in a great state of flux (either revisions or expansion). So…

    I would propose that MOS and MOSNUM policy be harmonized and also updated with the additional caveat that when an article has reached a level of completeness and polish that it is undergoing little in the way of substantial rewrite or addition, that typographers’ quotes are permissible. This will keep Wikipedia easy to edit when articles are in a state of growth and flux, but will also put Wikipedia on the slow track towards looking more like a professional-grade publication. Greg L (talk) 18:47, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Suffix of ordinal numbers

What is the reasoning behind the policy to not make the suffix of ordinal numbers superscript? As far as I can tell, styles like 23rd and 496th are the standard outside of Wikipedia. --Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 03:31, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I looked in the archives and found this. Hope that helps.
I'm here because I started a discussion at Template talk:Th; I'm thinking about removing all the references to {{st}}, {{nd}}, {{rd}}, and {{th}}. —LOL (talk) 05:36, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
  1. Slightly harder to read.
  2. Extra work in the edit box.
  3. Shifts the line down a little, with untidy visual effect. TONY (talk) 08:20, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
  4. But the number is much more readable and it looks much better. ● 8~Hype @ 22:57, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Since the only objection in the past 3¾ days is an WP:ILIKEIT-esque argument and there isn't any objective material to challenge the Columbia, Davidson and MIT style guides linked from the archive, shall I proceed with replacing all the ordinal suffix templates? For what it's worth, I also found the Apple Style Guide, University of Tennessee Editorial Style Guide, and BCIT writing style guide while browsing the first page of Google results for ordinal superscript style guide. CMSD reads "In Inside District News, superscript the ordinal endings", but "Inside District News" is probably not notable because of the sub-10 Google results. CMoS provides evidence of superscripts in ordinals; however, it seems to only apply to "monarchs and such" and Wikipedia does not use ordinal suffixes in sovereign titles (WP:NCNT#Sovereigns). —LOL (talk) 22:40, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Autoformatting date ranges

Well, which is right? I prefer to use wikidates, but for date ranges that means I have to give two full wikidates, because otherwise, as the second reference notes, these will be damaged. Using wikidates is the only way that readers with preferences set will see the date range correctly, regardless of whether they are using International Dating or American Dating format. --Pete (talk) 23:15, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Yep & it doesn't look like getting fixed any time this decade. JIMp talk·cont 23:37, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
If you want to say September 21–29, 2002, you don't use date linking. If you want to use date linking, you have to say September 21 – September 29 or 21 September 2002 – 29 September 2002. Are you implying the two statements above are inconsistent? Gimmetrow 04:23, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Yes indeed. So why use the autolemon for any date? We've tried and tried and tried to get the Wikimedia developers to decouple it from the linking mechanism, but it falls on deaf ears. Why people are quite happy to read the spelling of other varieties of English, but feel the need to put ugly bright-blue splotches on full dates just for some comforting frisson attached to seeing dates in the format of their own variety, is beyond me. North Americans easily put up with the non-American date format in every signature. I have no problem with August 26, 1979. Big deal. Just as well the autolemon is not mandatory; I discourage everyone from using it. TONY (talk) 08:18, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
This system was put in place to stop one of the earliest edit wars on wikipedia - years before you joined, Tony. You have not gained consensus for your position so please stop. Bug the developers instead. Rmhermen (talk) 18:21, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Pete wants to make the preferences work. I want date ranges to look like normal text, instead of being big blue distractions. I say screw the preferences; if you're talking about dates that a show aired on U.S. television, use U.S. format. If you're talking about Margaret Thatcher, use European format.Cstaffa (talk) 14:36, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, I should read more thoroughly. I should have just quoted:
Strong national ties to a topic
Articles on topics with strong ties to a particular English-speaking nation should generally use the more common date format for that nation; articles related to Canada may use either format consistently. Articles related to other countries that commonly use one of the two acceptable guidelines above should use that format. Cstaffa (talk) 23:15, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Hmmm. There's only 18 months left before 2010. Place your bets. Of course by then we'll have another three million articles to disambiguate messy dates in. Suggest you file a bug to allow preferences to be set for plain, non-highlighted presentation of dates even if datelinked in the wikisource. I'd even suggest that for anon readers the default pref be that. Myself, I still want to see maintainable, unambiguous wikisource, so I'll continue to prefer ISO 8601 dates wherever they can be used (especially in citations). Is today 05/06/08 or 06/05/08? I'll just call it 2008-06-05 so nobody can be confused. LeadSongDog (talk) 06:26, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
It wouldn't be too difficult to have linked dates autoformat, but still end up without links in the rendered page. I think that would make Tony1 happy (no random blue dates) without affecting how autoformatting resolved the old date format controversy. Except for the problem of determining a way to force links when specifically desired, is there a strong objection to this sort of solution? Gimmetrow 03:26, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Superscript characters

Both the Basic Manual of Style and the Mathematical Manual of Style recommend that proper superscripts be used for exponents (<sup>2</sup>, <sup>3</sup>) instead of mixing in the legacy Unicode characters ² and ³. This is for consistency (see 1²³4 vs. 1234), for accessibility (the Unicode superscripts are impossible to read on some monitors at the default size), and because the Unicode standard recommends they not be used when markup is available.

For consistency, this guide should reiterate what the other guides state, that the two characters ² and ³ should not be used in articles except when necessary (such as in templates or links that require them). —Werson (talk) 04:44, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Actually I believe that <math>2^{32}</math> (rendered as 232) is the preferred method when dealing with mathematical expressions. -- KelleyCook (talk) 13:22, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
You're right, that would be more correct. Problem is I'm seeing a lot of articles using the legacy characters as shorthand, especially for units (see Area, for instance). —Werson (talk) 21:39, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
  • It wasn’t too long ago that full-tilt superscripts on Wikipedia caused extra leading on the line that included them. It resulted in ugly page layout and, where there was lots of lines using them in a short paragraph, you could hardly see when one paragraph ended and the next one began. I hadn’t noticed exactly when, but recently, Wikipedia fixed this problem so now leading doesn’t shift around like that. IMO, that’s one reason why the Unicode mini-superscripts were popular (besides the fact that they used to be included in the Insert:Symbol pallet). I see that the m² and m³ characters are still there for the choosing and I see no reason why they shouldn't be permitted. But for a consistent, harmonious appearance in articles, I would think the proper thing to do is use full-tilt number<sup>2</sup> superscripts. Greg L (talk) 05:19, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] RFC discussion of User:Greg L

A request for comments has been filed concerning the conduct of Greg L (talk · contribs). You are invited to comment on the discussion at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Greg L. -- — Omegatron (talk) 00:28, 6 June 2008 (UTC) — Omegatron (talk) 00:28, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] June of 2008 or June 2008

Which is preferred, "June of 2008", "June 2008", or either format, when providing a date with only a month and year? --Silver Edge (talk) 03:28, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)#Longer_periods says "June 2008". Gimmetrow 03:31, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, I guess I missed that. Perhaps it should be added to the table at WP:DATE#Dates, beside "October, 1976". --Silver Edge (talk) 03:36, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] I'm currently archiving the rewrite-related talk. Please give me an hour or so to complete the job.

I will post here again when I'm done. Headbomb (ταλκ · κοντριβς) 17:56, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Everything was archived at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive/Complete rewrite of Units of Measurements (June 2008). I understand that usually only old threads are archived, but there was just so much that can't be separated that I couldn't only archive half of it coherently. I've left the votes here for now so Woodstone can update his vote. I'll update the archive accordingly.

You can head over there to check if your links still work.

Discussion is not closed, if you want to talk about anything from there, just bring back whatever text is relevant as needed. Headbomb (ταλκ · κοντριβς) 17:56, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Archive completed. Headbomb (ταλκ · κοντριβς) 19:31, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion of events leading up to 7 June 2008

  • Well, what can I say? One good thing has come of all this nonsense: at least I can edit the page. I will take advantage of my new-found ability to load it into my browser, and make my views known for the record:
  • No attempt has been made to address my and Woodstone's concern about unjustified deprecation of IEC units, despite a vote as recently as March 2008 showing 11 votes to 0 against precisely this form of deprecation. (the record shows 11-1, but only a sockpuppet favoured deprecation)
  • During the final voting Throughout the entire process the wording of the oppose vote was biased; and when Woodstone attempted to remove the bias, his changes were reverted by Fnagaton and by Headbomb. Headbomb "permitted" Woodstone's neutral version only after he had uploaded the new text.
  • No attempt was made to deal with the sheer size of the page to make it easier to load it. I was unable to access the page for most of the afternoon; there may have been other editors in the same position.
  • I have been the target of repeated accusations of dishonesty [1][2][3][4] by Fnagaton during the past few days.

This is not how consensus is built. Thunderbird2 (talk) 19:35, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

    • I take back my remark about the wording being biased. I do so because that remark was based on a misunderstanding that oppose votes were to be treated differently to support votes (The way the table was laid out gave me the incorrect impression that only oppose votes were to be ignored). Nevertheless, it is unusual to have such a category of votes in the first place. It is even more unusual for a voter to have to fight to get his vote accepted in the ‘included’ category. Woodstone’s vote makes it clear that he wished it to be considered (and why wouldn’t he?), but for reasons I have not investigated he had to reinstate it not once[5], not twice [6], but five times in total [7][8][9]. Why did he need to do that? Thunderbird2 (talk) 19:39, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Every attempt was made to address valid concerns that had substantive reasons, you would be correct to conclude that what you posted were not substantiated reasons but instead they were statements without valid argument, so they were disregarded. Headbomb and others asked you many times over the past week to provide substantive arguments, you did not. The individual vote you cite does not represent consensus because consensus is made with good arguments, not by the number of people who vote on one issue. The oppose vote wording is not biased at all. There were many votes, so it is disingenuous to only pick one and claim that means there is no consensus. You helped cause the large size of the page by copying large amounts of text from talk archives. Also you seem to have edited anyway so it is a non-issue and would not have affected consensus anyway. Again I see you repeat your utterly untrue and false accusations because you used the word dishonest in relation to yourself first, don't try to deny it because the archive is proof that you did. The fact you keep on misrepresenting and repeating that completely untrue accusation means you intend it to be a personal attack, stop, right now. Consensus is built by good arguments, you have failed to answer questions and you have refused point blank to answer questions, you only have yourself to blame for removing yourself from the debate by refusing to make good valid arguments. If you wanted to help with the consensus then all you had to do was contribute in a meaningful way, but all you did was claim "there isn't consensus" (despite the proof showing there is consensus) while refusing to explain why, which is nonsense. Just stop trying to misrepresent the truth, it is archived and it proves where your version of events is completely untrue. Please, for your own self respect, before you lose what you have remaining, just stop trying to re-write the truth to fit your personal opinion. It won't work and it just makes you look bad. Fnagaton 19:49, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Response:
  • First, there were plenty of attempts to address your concerns. It is you who ignored our repeated attempts to have you clarify your position, and to have you explicit the reasons of your concerns. It is only very recently that you first gave us one reason (on my talk page), and that reason was that there was a vote 2-3 months ago opposing the deprecation. We went through the archives, and found no reason other given for opposition than "I like it IEC units" and "Some organisation uses them". The fact that some organisation uses IEC prefixes is made completely irrelevant in the face of the fact that virtually no organization uses of them (Google test said less than 0.1% of scientific literature uses them, and about 0.6% of "general" litterature). See also WP:IDONTLIKE, WP:UNDUE, WP:Crystal Ball. As if we go by votes alone, what was 11 vs. 0 against deprecation has turned into 10 vs 2 (or 11 vs. 3, depending on how you count) so if your opposition is that 2 months ago people were against deprecation, this crumbled in the face of the fact that now people are for deprecation.
  • Second, how was the wording biased? Options were consensus/no consensus, support/opposition for personal reasons. Reasons were completely symmetric for either sides. I lumped Woodstone's vote into personal reasons because guess what... it was based on personal reasons and still is. My reverts were more concerned about maintaining the options as they were. I "permitted" the vote so Woodstone would stop complaining about it and so I could archive everything, but it is still fundamentally a personal reason vote. That this happened after the upload is inconsequential, as it was not a swing vote at 10 vs. 2, and the opposition's reasons are just as weak as before which is the fundamental reason why this was uploaded. If he were able to separate his personals feelings on the issue from your ability to judge whether or not there is consensus none of this would have happened.
  • Third, most of the problem of you not being able to see the page was caused by your humongous upload of texts from the archives rather than simple links on the talk page so you only have yourself to blame for that.
  • And fourth, it's completely inconsequential if you feel your pride is more important that settling issues. I've had my loads of personal attacks from just about everyone here, and you didn't see me get on a high horse and play the "If you don't apologize, then I'm not going to address the concerns of people" game. If you have a problem with that, then RfC. I've accused both Greg and Fganaton of being sockmasters [Which I’ve never done. Greg L (talk) 20:48, 7 June 2008 (UTC)], I've berated Greg L for his conduct here [“That is twenty demerit points Sgt. John Spartan.” Greg L (talk) 20:48, 7 June 2008 (UTC)], I've opposed Jimp's argument in the previous FCL greenbox, and I still think that Fganaton was the sockmaster of DPH, but did that stop any of them from working with me and answer my concerns? If we can all rise above petty bickering, then so should you. Headbomb (ταλκ · κοντριβς) 20:12, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Re the last point about accusations of dishonesty: TB2's untrue accusations have already been added to the RfC by myself and my comments have been endorsed by at least two other editors.Fnagaton 20:17, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Thunderbird2: Your above claims are beyond fallacious. All of them. “…[use my] new-found ability to load it into my browser, and make my views known for the record…” Who do you think you’re trying to kid here?? You were as active here on Talk:MOSNUM over the last several months as anyone else. If your views were ambiguous, it was only due to your own fault. Why? Because, it seems to me that one of your debate tactics at first was to give the appearance of someone sitting on the fence on this issue, trying to influence opinion by appearing to be someone who was wrestling with the issue of the binary prefixes. Your ham-handed effort to disambiguate Mac Pro without using your precious IEC prefixes, and your complaint here about how your success in your efforts to write articles without the IEC prefixes were “spotty”, only reinforced this view of your method of operation. But in the last month, your position had become clear as glass. We all heard your arguments. So please spare us your “No one is listening and responding to my arguments” spiel. We have listened. And we understood. And we responded (hundreds, if not thousands of times). We simply reject your position as being the unwise thing to do. What Wikipedia will be doing now will be to follow the way the rest of the computing world works. That’s good. As for your allegation that this was not how consensus is built, Headbomb’s effort should serve as the paradigm of how consensus is built. It comes as no surprise to anyone here that a principle opponent of the consensus view now alleges that there was no consensus. We reject that charge as being fallacious too. Desist please. Greg L (talk) 20:17, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Anyway, now TB2's outburst has been roundly refuted I have to go to sleep. Early flight in the morning. :( Fnagaton 20:40, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Archive B9

  • I've seen some people argue using the results from the poll in Archive B9, and I've seen other people argue that it's no longer applicable because significant numbers of people have changed their minds. Instead of arguing about it, I'd like to de-archive B9 into a page like Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Binary prefix opinions and let people change their votes if they've changed their minds, add new sections for consideration, etc. with no deadline or archival. I think this would be a valuable tool for building consensus and representing editors' (possibly changing) opinions on each issue without being lost in a lot of argumentation.

    My suggestion is to move the polls alone to the new name, and leave just the discussion in the B9 archive with a link back to it. What do you all think? — Omegatron (talk) 23:26, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

  • Let old polls be old polls. That one was made two months ago, in the context of two months ago. To change it is meaningless, as probably more than half of these people won't update their votes and we'll be stuck with an ambiguous results and votes from two time periods.

    Start a new one if you want, but that would be pretty pointless considering we just had one, and that polls mean diddly squat on their own. See WP:DEMO. Headbomb (ταλκ · κοντριβς)

  • Omegatron: The events and votes archived on B9 are not applicable in any way to what later occurred here and which eventually lead to the current contents of MOSNUM.

    Please respect the fact that many editors labored here in good faith to debate the proposed contents and develop a consensus on the current MOSNUM wording. You apparently had no interest in the goings on here, or boycotted the proceedings. But for whatever reason, you chose not to participate. The majority of editors who labored on the latest wording have zero interest whatsoever in your trying to resurrect the IEC prefix issue for further discussion. Please respect the consensus. Do all protons in the universe have to decay before you let this rest? If you dispute that there was a consensus in the latest decision, please take your complaint somewhere else. Greg L (talk) 04:52, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

  • Omegatron's suggestion is a good one. The two polls are in no way comparable, because B9 was solely about binary prefixes, whereas the new one was much broader, covering all units and their symbols. Such a poll would settle the issue of consensus on the disputed part of the new guideline. Isn't that what we are trying to achieve here? Thunderbird2 (talk) 07:43, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Omegatron's suggestion is a bad suggestion because it goes against a couple of the policies he cited in the RfC complaint about Greg, notably WP:CONSENSUS because votes don't make consensus good reasons do and because when challenged no good reasons have been given, Wikipedia is not a democracy because trying to resurrect votes when consensus has just been reached is not how Wikipedia operates and Wikipedia:Polling is not a substitute for discussion. Just so there is no doubt Omegatron, it is not a good idea. Consensus has been reached so calling for yet more votes will be seen as an attempt to game the system. You had months to make a valid contribution yet you did not. Fnagaton 15:14, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Francis Schonken's horse is alive and kicking:

    Because of the clear deprecation that was considered so important by some, the new guideline is being interpreted as preferring ambiguous units to unambiguous ones. User:Warren may or may not be the first editor to interpret the guideline in this way, but I am certain he will not be the last. The solution is simple: Remove the deprecation of IEC units. Thunderbird2 (talk) 14:56, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

  • No TB2, your edit does not follow the guideline, don't try to get Warren into trouble because reading the article it is obvious what the prefixes already mean due to their context. If he doesn't want to add disambiguation then OK, so if you think disambiguation is needed you should be adding disambiguation using footnotes to state the number of bytes with (power notation is good), or by adding the number of bytes to the prefixes used (power notation is good) or by adding some explanation following "Editors should specify if the binary or decimal meanings of K, M, G,... are intended as the primary meaning" in the article. You should be choosing one of those options instead of adding IEC prefixes. The guideline is very clear about this. If you don't want to add footnotes or an acceptable form of disambiguation then don't, leave it to another editor to do instead. As Greg showed in another article it isn't hard or difficult to add disambiguation that does not use IEC prefixes, so please follow the new guideline text in future. Fnagaton 15:21, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Who is blaming Warren? Not me, because he has done nothing wrong. The problem is clearly with the guideline, which leaves itself open to be interpreted in this way. (And no, the meaning is certainly not obvious from the context to a non-expert). Thunderbird2 (talk) 15:37, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
  • I'm glad you say he has done nothing wrong, so please stop reverting his changes. The problem is not with the guideline if you follow the guideline and disambiguate with the examples given in the guideline. So, one question directly to you: Why are you not following the guideline ( by adding IEC prefixes) when you should be adding acceptable disambiguation instead? Fnagaton 15:47, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
  • The guideline says "Editors should use the conventional prefixes, such as kilobyte (KB) and megabyte (MB), and disambiguate where necessary." (i.e. it is not mandatory to disambiguate) and "IEC prefixes are not to be used on Wikipedia except under the following circumstances". Looking at Warren's changes, where you say he has done nothing wrong, he has correctly removed the IEC prefixes, within the scope of the guideline. He obviously doesn't think disambiguation is necessary which is also within the scope of the guideline and you did say he has done nothing wrong. Obviously from your comments you do think disambiguation is necessary, so within the scope of the guideline you should be adding acceptable disambiguation, not adding IEC prefixes back again. Fnagaton 16:09, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Here is Warren's interpretation of the the new guideline:[10]
  • [computing articles] should carry the ambiguous binary prefixes unless there is a very specific reason to do otherwise
  • If that interpretation is widespread we will have more and more ambiguity introduced into computer articles. Is that the desired end result? Thunderbird2 (talk) 18:40, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
  • The guideline says "Consensus was reached that the spirit of the MoS was better reflected by having familiar but ambiguous units ... ". The guideline does not result in more ambiguity being added to computer articles if you follow the guideline and use the acceptable forms of disambiguation where necessary. I note you've not answered the question put directly to you above. Fnagaton 18:53, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
That's because I hadn't noticed it. I simply reverted a change that did not follow the spirit of MOSNUM. I did not introduce the IEC prefixes because they were there already. Thunderbird2 (talk) 21:06, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
  • As already explained above and on several talk pages, Warren's change did not go against the "spirit of MOSNUM". Your edit did go against the "spirit of MOSNUM" and did go against the letter of MOSNUM as well. You made an edit to add IEC prefixes back again and you know better than that because you know exactly what the guideline text says about using IEC prefixes. I also note, again, that you have failed to answer the question put directly to you. Fnagaton 21:21, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
  • You are asking the wrong question. You should ask yourself: which version is better: the ambiguous one or the unambiguous one (which does not follow the guidline to the letter). The answer must certainly be: the unambiguous one is better. If someone else wants to further "improve" by following the guidlineline that is up to him. A reversion to ambiguous units is counterproductive. −Woodstone (talk) 09:41, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
  • I'm asking a good question and he's refusing the answer it. It isn't counterproductive because it uses prefixes that the reader will be familiar with, as it says in the guideline text "Familiar units are preferred over obscure units" and "Consensus was reached that the spirit of the MoS was better reflected by having familiar but ambiguous units...". So to answer your question the better version is the version that uses prefixes that the reader will be more familiar with. Therefore, the better version is the version that Warren edited. The corollary is that the version edited by TB2 is worse than Warren's version, again this is according to the consensus in the guideline. By the way, you are asking the wrong question because you asume the article is "ambiguous" or "unambiguous" which actually isn't the case because the context of the KB/MB/GB prefixes used in the article makes it obvious, so it isn't ambiguous per se. The article might be improved by adding disambiguation that uses the methods described in the guideline if the editor thinks it is necessary to disambiguate, however the article is made worse by adding IEC prefixes. Hence my question to TB2 that has still gone unanswered. Looking at Warren's edits and the articles it is clear to me he thinks (I have to assume good faith here) from the context in the articles what the prefixes mean so the disambiguation is not necessary, look in the MOSNUM guideline text for "necessary". Now then, it is clear looking at TB2's edits he thinks that disambiguation is "necessary". But looking at TB2's edits he uses IEC prefixes which according to the guildine are "not to be used on Wikipedia" and TB2 knows this fact. What TB2 should have done is to disambiguate using acceptable methods described in the guideline, not the wholesale reversion and comments on multiple talk pages of Warren for his edits. You see, in the time it has taken TB2 to make those multiple talk page comments and the reverts he could have easily added acceptable disambiguation and helped to improve the article. Doing that would have involved a lot more good faith and much less Wiki-drama. Editors must not disrupt Wikipedia to illustrate a point. Fnagaton 10:07, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
  • By changing MiB to MB information is destroyed. A bot could easily be constructed to change 1 MiB into 1 MB (10242 bytes). However there is no bot that could ever disambiguate 1 MB dependably. So I stay with the conclusion that MiB is better than an ambiguous MB. You forget that a guideline is not mandatory. It just describes the preferred end result. Not all steps towards it need to be taken by the same editor. −Woodstone (talk) 12:11, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Information is not "destroyed" by changing MiB to MB because the surrounding text in an article gives context. The guideline clearly says MB is better than MiB because MB is familiar to the reader. The end result is that the terms used in the article are familiar to the reader because we want the article to communicate to the reader and not be too confusing, hence the guideline text using that terminology. Fnagaton 13:32, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
  • So you're saying that if we put MB (220) instead of MiB, everything is peachy—just like the MOS says? And you're saying that with or without IEC prefix around, we'll still have to disambiguate the decimal MB (106), because in the real world, MB can mean either 106 or 220—just like the MOS says?

    Glad to see that you finally agree that we have a sound policy that allows us to write things unambiguously in a way that 99%+ of the planet can understand. Headbomb (ταλκ · κοντριβς) 13:19, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
  • To Fnagaton: yes destroyed, because it becomes inacessible to a bot and can only be reconstructed by the efforts of a knowledgeable human editor. To Headbomb: I'm very surpised by that last remark. I have stated quite while ago that I agree that MB should always be disambiguated and that I have no objection to a preference for explicit powers (although personally I would prefer IEC). The only thing I still object to in this context is the explicit ban on IEC prefixes (the bullet "the IEC prefixes are not to be used" with its 3 subbullets). It is unnecessary, because application of the preference would phase them out. At a moment shortly before the final voting I thought we had agreement on that. There is no explicit ban on unfamiliar units like "fathom" or "cubit" and a 100 others. Why one for MiB? −Woodstone (talk) 13:55, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
  • No not destroyed at all, as already explained the context makes it clear. The advantage is that the reader sees prefixes that they are much more likely to understand. The guideline text states this preference as well, that is the consensus. Also as we have just seen we do need the explicit ban because some editors will still try to add IEC prefixes to articles when they know full well that other better methods exist and that IEC prefixes are not preferred, again that is the consensus. Not that it is really a valid point about the "fathom" or "cubit", it is a red herring, but with those units we don't have a minority of editors intent on pushing their point of view about those units into articles. We do have a minority intent on pushing their point of view with IEC prefixes, yet another reason for the explicit ban. Of course if after a few months (six months maybe?) we did not have a minority intent on pushing their point of view then I would be open to the suggestion of potentially removing the explicit ban, but until then I say we do need it. Just as the consensus showed. Fnagaton 14:04, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
  • There are no explicit ban on unfamiliar units like "fathom" or "cubit" because there is no de facto need for such a ban. When you see a fathom/cubit-brigade who insist on having fathoms and cubits all around wikipedia, then you'll see an explicit ban on fathoms and cubits. Or perhaps it's just that the fathom/cubit brigade members are reasonable enough to see that "Familiar units are preferred over unfamiliar units", to see that meters and cubic meter are more appropriate. There's no de facto need for an explicit fathom/cubit deprecation because the implicit one is respected. The IEC-brigade members however, have and will-continue to insist that since IEC units are acceptable since they aren't explicitly banned. Hence the ban. Headbomb (ταλκ · κοντριβς) 15:15, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Exactly. At the end of the day what the guideline does is make the articles less confusing and better understood for the readers who will be using them. Fnagaton 15:18, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
  • To Woodstone: 100% behind you
  • To Fnagaton, Headbomb: the ban is what gave Warren the licence to interpret the guideline as favouring ambiguous units. Therefore it does more harm than good.
  • Thunderbird2 (talk) 16:18, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
This is an essay; it contains the advice and/or opinions of one or more Wikipedia contributors. It is not a policy or guideline, and editors are not obliged to follow it.
Shortcuts:
WP:STICK
WP:HORSEMEAT
WP:DEADHORSE
Mmm, nuts! This page in a nutshell:
If you are the only person left beating the horse after it has died, consider the possibility that you should stop.

There comes a point in every debate on Wikipedia where the debate itself has come to a natural end. You may have won the debate, you may have lost the debate, or you may have found yourself in an honourable draw. At this point you should drop the stick and back slowly away from the horse carcass.

If a debate, discussion, or general exchange of views has come to a natural end through one party having "won" or (more likely) the community having lost interest in the entire thing, then no matter which side you were on, you should walk away.

If you don't, if you continue to flog the poor old debate, if you try to reopen it, if you continually refer to old news, if you parade your triumph in the faces of others... you're not really winning friends and influencing people. Instead, you are annoying the hell out of everyone nearby.

If you've "won": good for you. Now go about your business, don't keep reminding us of the fact that your "opponent" didn't "win". If you've "lost": sorry, hard luck. Now go about your business, don't keep reminding us of the fact that your "opponent" didn't actually win because of... whatever. If the debate died a natural death: let it remain dead. It is over, let it go. Nobody cared except you. Hard to stomach, but you're going to have to live with it.

So, the next time you find yourself with the body of a horse: please stop beating it. It won't help.


--Francis Schonken (talk) 08:03, 8 June 2008 (UTC)


  • I agree with Fnagaton (and Francis Schonken’s point too). Warren’s edits could have been lifted out of any computer brochure or article out of Mac World or PC World. His use of the conventional binary prefixes like “megabyte” was clear enough because it was common verbiage seen a million times before in real-world usage; it wasn’t “necessary” to disambiguate them. For Thunderbird2 to have entirely undone Warren’s work was a violation of Wikipedia:Do not disrupt Wikipedia to illustrate a point. From now on, I suggest to Thunderbird2, that if you really feel that an expression like “The Windows-box 9000 comes stock with 3 GB of RAM so it runs less slug-like with Vista” truly, really, honestly confuses so many readers, then you can disambiguate said article using techniques seen here on “Mac Pro” (take a look at footnotes 10, 11, and 22). Please don’t just revert other editors’ work by restoring units of measure few readers have ever seen before. The consensus is clear that this is not what we want to see on Wikipedia any more. Whether you agree with the consensus view or not, please respect it.

    I should also add that Power Macintosh 5500 should have had the first instances of each use of “KB” and “MB” spelled out. Some of us here are assuming that the typical reader is more knowledgeable about computer terminology that should be presumed. Note that Encyclopedia Britannica spells out every instance and doesn’t use the unit symbols. Of course, that’s where the number of instances of “megabyte” in the article is limited. I’m going to revise the article to show what I mean. Greg L (talk) 20:31, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

  • P.S. There. These changes illustrate what I have in mind regarding spelling out first instances of “MB” and “MHz”, etc. It also provides link to the first instances of new units of measure, and it disambiguates the binary prefixes via footnotes using familiar wording seen in the real world. We need to remember some of the fundamentals of technical writing in an encyclopedia: some readers who come here to learn are not terribly familiar with computer terminology. Even though we have Wikilinks, the proper thing to do is spell out first instances of arcane technobabble. Greg L (talk) 21:08, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Well Note 1 is clear; but Note 2 - what's a billion, I assume you mean 1024 Mbytes, or is it 1,000,000,000?Pyrotec (talk) 21:18, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
  • The edits look good to me (I take 1 billion to mean 1,000,000,000). Now that we have identified the loophole, I look forward to suggestions on how to fix the root cause of the problem. Thunderbird2 (talk) 21:31, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
  • I lifted that sentence straight off of Apple’s Web site. It’s clear enough to me and apparently, Apple computer thinks it's clear enough for England too. Note Apple’s UK iMac tech spec page. See Footnote #4. It reads as follows: “1GB = 1 billion bytes and 1TB = 1 trillion bytes; actual formatted capacity less.”. England has long used the short scale for named numbers and commerce there observes that real-world practice. The only countries still using the long scale for numbers are non-English speaking. This is en.Wikipedia. If you want to change it to prove some sort of point, be my guest; I’m not going to make a federal case out of it. Greg L (talk) 21:34, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Pyrotec said he interprets 1 billion bytes as 1024 MB and I said I thought it meant 10003 B. What point is it that you think we are trying to prove? Thunderbird2 (talk) 21:41, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
  • P.S. Yeah, I caught that. Pyrotec’s point wasn’t that we had a long scale/short scale issue; Pyrotec was saying that the named number word “billion” can be interpreted as “1024 Mbytes”. I’m not going to even debate this point, other than to provide a link to Billion, and ask you to point out where 1,024,000,000 is one of its defined values. The IEC prefix wording was pored over more carefully than most other text in MOSNUM. It’s clear enough. Again, whether you agree with the consensus view or not, please respect it and abide by it. It does have the virtue of following real-world practices. If you have a problem, take it up with the world, not with editors here trying to follow real-world practices. Greg L (talk) 21:47, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
  • My point is that Note 1 says: Transistorized memory, such as RAM and cache sizes, are binary values whereby 1 KB = 210 (1024) bytes and 1 MB = 220 (1,048,576) bytes; and Note 2 says: "For hard drives, 1 GB equals 1 billion bytes; actual formatted capacities are less". The point I am making is that I would have expected Note 2 to be of the form: "For hard drives, 1 GB equals 1 billion (1,000,000,000) bytes; actual formatted capacities are less".

    If you look at Billion it can be 10^9 or 10^12, but I was not trying to make that point. (It might even be 1,024 * 1,024 * 1,024 or even 1000 * 1,048,576 - but that would be flogging a dead horse :))Pyrotec (talk) 21:52, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

  • OK. After I disambiguated “gigabyte” (using real-world language lifted straight off an Apple web page), I then disambiguated “billion” with a Wikilink to 1000000000 (number). I trust there is no need to disambiguate “1,000,000,000” means? As I pointed out with my above-mentioned edits, there are other sucking chest wounds in some of Wikipedias computer articles (like spelling out the first instance of “megabyte” and then transitioning to the symbols (MB). Fussing over whether a “billion” really means the standard, English-language word it normally means seems to be more of a need to make a point here than trying to fix anything that really needs fixing. Can we move on now?? Greg L (talk) 22:05, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
  • It is quite simple really, and its getting it right first time, why not change Note 2 to read: "For hard drives, 1 GB equals 1 billion (1,000,000,000) bytes; actual formatted capacities are less", and move on to fix the things that need fixing?Pyrotec (talk) 22:12, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Like I stated above, I would have thought that language that Apple thought was perfectly clear in both England and the U.S. is clear enough. Even Rain Man in a hurry could figure what “billion” means. So writing out “billion” means “1,000,000,000” seemed silly and unnecessary to me. It also seemed like a POINT issue in the closing days of this IEC prefix nuclear war. But maybe that’s just me. I’m not going to make a federal case out of it. Knock yourself out. Greg L (talk) 22:22, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
  • If the prefix war must go on, it must go on, but dearchiving one of the dozen binary prefix archives might just make things more confusing. Beat a dead horse ... is it dead? How many legs does a dead horse have ... are they legs any more or just lumps of meat? Ever tried dead horse? It's great raw with a little garlic or ginger. Francis' transclusion of WP:DEADHORSE looks a little different from when he posted it because I've gone and stuck some <noinclude></noinclude> tags in there so that this page isn't miscategorised and wrongly linked up with the Arabic version of the dead-horse essay and to remove the See also heading. As for me, I still stick with the logical meaning of billion but acknowledge the fact that I'm a dying breed. Until the English-speaking world sees the light ... as have many of the other-European-language-speaking worlds and go back to the original meaning of billion, trillion, etc. ... and that may never happen ... I s'pose we're stuck with this bastardised terminology in the WP article space ... but I'm off on a tangent. Consensus went in some direction today ... or which direction? ... but consensus can change. Have fun with your horse. Let's just not have the prefix war spilling all over the place again. JIMp talk·cont 02:40, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Scientific notation, engineering notation, and uncertainty's location

The section Scientific notation, engineering notation, and uncertainty could be better positioned. This section deals with the representation of numbers. Such notation can occur outside the context of measurements and is certainly something besides units. I propose moving it from Units of measurements. It could stand alone as its own section but what I propose is to move it into Numbers since that's what it deals with. JIMp talk·cont 01:26, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Headbomb,

You write "Makes sense. Feel free to edit." did you mean to delete it or was that a mistake? I will edit. There is no content change involved just a more logical organisation of content. It had been brought up before but I can't find it in the archives and I'm not really up for picking through diffs.

JIMp talk·cont 03:10, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

found JIMp talk·cont 03:19, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


I'm not quite sure I'm following. I deleted the collapse box containing the content of archive 102, since it's archived. What's that got to do with the moving of the Sci/eng notation section? Headbomb (ταλκ · κοντριβς) 04:04, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Should've been nothing, or so you'd guess, but see the diff. JIMp talk·cont 04:06, 9 June 2008 (UTC)