Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (Portuguese-related articles)

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Portuguese-related articles) page.

Please contribute your suggestions below. Galf 14:58, 5 March 2007 (UTC)


I came across "Anti-Dantas Manifest" which is at least butchering the title of the work. I here by propose that NO translation will be done into english of Names, Titles, Places, Offices where no historical translation exists. Names should be presented as: "Portuguese Name (meaningful translation of Portuguese name - ultra short explanation of name)" example: lapis azul (blue pencil - a symbol of censorship).

Same applies for text quoted in line. Important expressions should be preserved as well, such as "a bem da nação(for the good of the nation)". Also, I believe that "proper" native speakers of English, especially if their have NO knowledge of Portuguese subjects should be invited as proofreaders as they can more easily spot Grammar issues but also concepts that are missing or unclear.

Another thing I came across "Parish" means "Paróquia", "freguesia" should be translated as "Civil Parish" as it is a civil, not a religious entity. As I explained above, over-translation leads to confusion, someone who sees a country divided in "parishes" would infer that clerics have civil power, which we know isn't the case. For instance, in Poland they use Voivodship instead of "Distrito" and we know that District is actually closer to the concept of "Civil Parish" than that of Voivodship don't we? See Central_business_district for an example

Galf 15:16, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I had noticed the "parish" before as sounding blatantly inadequate. I suggest changing all mentions to "parish" to simply "freguesia", and changing the translation as "parish" in the latter to "civil parish" or some other form that would not sound like it's a religious division.--Húsönd 15:36, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
For all it's worth, I agree with this suggestion.--Saoshyant talk / contribs (please join WP:Portugal or WP:SPOKEN) 15:47, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Shortcut

After creating the initial version of the manual, please use WP:MOS-PT as the official shortcut. Thanks.--Saoshyant talk / contribs (please join WP:Portugal or WP:SPOKEN) 15:54, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Translations

Don't "preemptive translate" if something has a proper portuguese name, but no common use english name then don't create one an explanation and a simple direct translation should be added to the article and a redirect may be added as well, but only after there is a translation agreed upon.

Translations should be faithful to meaning more than to wording. specially when translating quotes, the meaning should be preserved over the exact wording. References should be provided with the original text and the translation should be consensual.

A short list of commonly made mistakes should be compiled for reference (eg. freguesia = civil parish ; paróquia = parish) Galf 15:57, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mountain Names

I propose that Mountains are named preserving the original Portuguese name: "Serra da Estrela Mountain", "Serra d'Aires Mountain" and thus avoiding things like "Mountain Range of the Star" or "Mountain Range of the Great Goblet" (Serra do Caldeirão). I think this translates better than "da Estrela Mountain" or "Mount Estrela". Even the Everest has the native name on it's article. Comments? Galf 22:18, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

You hit the nail. I completely agree with your argument.--Saoshyant talk / contribs (please join WP:Portugal or WP:SPOKEN) 14:29, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
I think that names such as "Serra da Estrela Mountain" or "Serra d'Aires Mountain" sound like an odd combination of Portuguese and English. Besides, those are not mountains, but rather ridges. I think that having "Serra da Estrela" as the name of the article is perfectly acceptable, there's no need to add "mountain" or any other unnecessary description that's better suited for the content of the article itself.--Húsönd 15:28, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
I might not have quite said what I meant.... in the article it would appear like this:" Serra da Estrela is the highest Mountain of Portugal, often known simply as "Estrela". It is part of the Montejunto-Estrela mountain range." I just want to avoid wierd translations...I've seen "mountain range of Rates" used in the Peter of Rates article and it is neither informative nor accurate Galf 15:51, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Chouriço

I'm sure all Portuguese will say that it is better than the Spanish Chourizo and that in fact it's not even the same thing and we have the alheira and the farinheira...but the fact is that they are all the same basic thing, a cured sausage. My point is: if something has already been named in english using a term from another language then that is the article that should be expanded, national differences apart. And even if everyone knows that the farinheira and the alheira originated from the new Christians this still needs proper sourcing.

Also, on sourcing, I'm sure everyone in Portugal saw at least once the footage of Ramalho Eanes on the chaimite asking if anyone dare shoot him (you guessed, no one did) but say, in the UK, they might not even know that we had the PREC(again, not a surprise, since the article isn't done yet). The point? SOURCE! cleanly and reputably and in English if possible. Galf 22:18, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The letter "ç"

Do mention that "ç" reads as "ss" and not as "c", and that no Portuguese-related article should replace a "ç" with a "c" on any circunstance. Some important names already have a replacement for "ç" as "z", e.g. Azores, Braganza. This was defined long, long ago as part of the English language, and it's not related in anyway with Wp. However, anything less known that may use a "ç", like my name Gonçalves, Non-Portuguese people tend to replace the "ç" with a normal "c", and thus why I believe it should be explained here why this is wrong to avoid problems.--Saoshyant talk / contribs (please join WP:Portugal or WP:SPOKEN) 13:38, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Good point there, I will include that with the translation guidelines. IPA should be used to represent the proper sounds, I don't know how to use it though.Galf 15:22, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Battle Names, Royal Names

I came across another interesting issue with the translations...the "Guerra das Laranjas" article was created as "War of the Oranges" and makes no reference to the original Portuguese or Spanish name for it. This would make any follow-up in either language difficult because it makes the reader "untranslate" the name. also, it makes an uneeded connection to the orange issues to which it has no connection whatsoever. I propose that Old Names be preserved, along with archaic terms, such as "Lente de Direito" (Law Professor) to alow readers with an understanding of portuguese to follow on their research unimpeded.

Also, in Royal names, a lot of them were created with "Infanta" which is an honorific AFAIK, but I could be wrong. My issue here is with the King's names, should we stick to the english names only in the article's body, or use the more common formulations eg. "Dom Pedro" or King Pedro? it becomes a bit weird when "Dona Maria" becomes just "Mary" would "Queen Mary" do? thoughts? Galf 08:26, 13 March 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Porto/Oporto

The English variant for the second largest Portuguese city "Oporto" is falling into disuse and the most common name nowadays is "Porto", even among English speakers. Wikipedia should use the most common name, reference to the variant "Oporto" should only be mentioned in the article Porto.--Húsönd 15:35, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I think I could subscribe that, even though I feel some activism there....the "O" in Oporto was an inehited mistake, but I think no great harm comes from correcting it. Galf 15:55, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Personally, I have always felt that Oporto was wrong in all senses, but I saw it in so many places in Wikipedia that I began to believe it's how outsiders render the city's name. If we can use "Porto", then by all means, let's fix this! I really hate Oporto; it's way more retarded than "Lisbon".--Saoshyant talk / contribs (please join WP:Portugal or WP:SPOKEN) 17:00, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Film titles

In film titles, the foreign version often becomes the title of the article, so we are having a discussion in Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (films)#Capitalization in titles, trying to establish what is correct for each language/country. We would appreciate if you could drop us a line about it. Hoverfish Talk 21:33, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Brazil

This applies only to Portugal? Can't we get some mention on the article? Macgreco 22:56, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Although linguistic matters do appear here, I believe that this page turned out to be more Portugal-related rather than Portuguese (language) related. Perhaps it should be moved to Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (Portugal-related articles), and a new manual of style concerning the Portuguese language created.--Húsönd 23:20, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Is there any objection to adding the "Wikipedia style guideline" category to the page?

The infobox says this is a style guideline, and it has the style bar on the right side, but it's not in any category. Should I add the category? - Dan Dank55 (talk)(mistakes) 02:13, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Sure.--Ivo talk / contribs (join Project Portugal) 01:02, 7 May 2008 (UTC)