Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (Kosovo-related articles)

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The draft looks very well thought out, well done.

I am not quite convinced we should use "Kosovan" for "Kosovar", since the latter is clearly much more widely used. I am not sure just how much "Kosovar" implies Albanian ethnicity, maybe we should cite some third party sources on that question. Also, I am not sure it is a good idea in this case to use national flag as a symbol for languages: Flag of Albania and Flag of Serbia symbolize "Republic of Albania" and "Republic of Serbia", not "ethnic Albanian" and "ethnic Serbian", respectively. The situation is also asymmetric, since the Serbian side claims Kosovo as part of the Republic of Serbia, while the Albanian side does not claim it as part of the Republic of Albania, and it is unwise to suggest the Republic of Albania is an official party to this dispute. --dab (𒁳) 06:13, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback. You're right about "Kosovar" being more widely used, but I found that it has been used very inconsistently, often as a synonym for Albanians (it comes from an Albanian declension). I was influenced by the decision of a number of newspapers to adopt "Kosovan" as a less ambiguous term. See e.g. the UK Guardian's style guide. As for the flags, good point - I'll change that. -- ChrisO (talk) 08:49, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

ok, we could recommend using "Kosovan", pointing to the Guardian guideline. I don't think that this suffices to actively deprecate "Kosovar" though. dab (𒁳) 09:28, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

No, not OK! Is this supposed to be an Orwellian kind of "new speech"? According to dictionary.com and the Oxford dictionary, Kosovar is the correct demonym for Kosovo. --Tubesship (talk) 21:41, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] "Anglicised"

I'm not quite sure whether the statement that "common English equivalents" should count only where the English forms have "undergone significant modifications to spelling (e.g. "Belgrade" for Beograd" meets current consensus. It seems to me that it is a rather far-reaching re-interpretation of the rules of WP:USEENGLISH. My understanding has always been that "common English equivalent" refers to whatever form is predominantly used in English, be it identically borrowed from the source language or not. For instance, it was determined that Shatt al-Arab, despite not being "Anglicised" in spelling, in fact is the common English term, and this was (rightly) the deciding argument in moving the article there. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:17, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Also, your application of "self-identifying" according to the most local identifiers would entail we'd have to move, for instance, all Northern Cyprus localities to their Turkish names. Are you prepared for the uproar? Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:32, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
In fact, your guideline itself seems to contradict this stated rationale, because it (rightly) opts for "Kosovo" on the grounds that it's the established English term, despite local self-identifying usage.
Also, I'd be careful about the wording that local names for inanimate features should be dependent on usage in their "linguistic area". Linguistic areas are fleeting, can overlap, and often lack official status. The wording seems to imply that we should name geographical features following the usage in whatever local minority language is predominant. So, are we going to rename eastern Anatolian placenames to their Kurdish forms?
On the whole, I'm afraid the emphasis in your presentation (if perhaps not the results) look like a step in the wrong direction: away from taking international usage of the English speech community as a standard (WP:USEENGLISH), towards taking the will of local political entities as a standard. This is counterproductive, since in the present case the whole conflict is about what are the relevant and legitimate local political entities in the first place. Thus, tying ourselves to such criteria only brings us further down into these intractable POV dilemmas, when it ought to be leading us out of them. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:40, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the comments. I think you might be right about geographical entities; looking again at WP:NCON#Proper nouns, it does state that "If the name of an inanimate or non-human entity is disputed by two jurisdictions and there is no English-language equivalent, use the commonest non-English name." In the case of Shatt al-Arab, there's no English equivalent (e.g. "Arab River") so we're left with a choice between the Latinised transliterations of the Arabic and Persian names, of which the Arabic name is clearly the most widely used in English. In relation to Kosovo, I guesss this would mean that (for example) the Sharr Mountains would have to remain at Šar Mountains, as this name seems to be overwhelmingly the most widely used in English sources. I'll amend the proposed guideline to make that principle clear.
Regarding Kosovo's name in English, there actually isn't any contradiction (or won't be, once I've amended the guideline as I've just described). The political entity that governs Kosovo formally calls itself the Republic of Kosova (interestingly, they've just changed their website - it used to say Republic of Kosovo). However, as I've said in the guideline, it's common practice in English to use a geographical name as a synonym for the political entity which governs it ("Greece" instead of "Hellenic Republic", for instance). And the common geographical name applied in English to Kosovo is, overwhelmingly, "Kosovo".
Finally, the thorny question of self-identifying entities. I'm afraid WP:USEENGLISH is somewhat inadequate in this regard, in that it doesn't take sufficient concern about the NPOV implications of self-identifying names, and it also doesn't take into account what happens when a name is changed. Should we, for instance, have kept Mumbai at its old name of "Bombay" because (up to that point at least) the vast majority of English-language sources didn't use the new name?
Disputed self-identifying names require a very tricky balancing act to maintain NPOV. The issue is essentially the same as for the Republic of Macedonia. If ethnic group X, which actually governs the place in question, says "this place is called A" and ethnic group Y says "this place should be called B", which name do we use? We can't make a decision about whether X or Y has a greater moral right to their chosen name, but we can reflect the situation on the ground. It's not really adequate from an NPOV perspective to rely on historical usage in English for self-identifying entities because names are very often artifacts of historical political dominance. In the cases of Bombay and Leningrad, the names were the relics of previous regimes (British and Communist respectively) and the inhabitants made a conscious political decision to undo this legacy. And we have by and large respected their right to do so, despite the prevalent use in English up to that point, hence the renaming to Mumbai and St Petersburg. Byelorussia→Belarus, Moldavia→Moldova and Kishinev→Chişinău are comparable examples. That is really the point of the key principle of WP:NCON - we shouldn't prescribe how a placename is used, we should only reflect how it actually is used. It was because WP:USEENGLISH didn't take this into account that I had to develop WP:NCON in the first place. -- ChrisO (talk) 09:22, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Well, both St Petersburg and Mumbai were renamed well before Wikipedia started, and general English usage in the media had time to adapt to the renamed versions before we had to make that call. If a place were to be renamed like that today, I'd still maintain we should stick with Stupidoldname, since 2008 officially Shinynewname, is..., and then wait and observe how actual usage develops. Apart from that, I think your point about descriptive-prescriptive doesn't quite hit the mark. The point is to be descriptive of English usage (where such is descernible), and on a secondary level to be descriptive of local usage (only where the first criterion fails). I disagree with your statement that "WP:USEENGLISH is somewhat inadequate in this regard, in that it doesn't take sufficient concern about the NPOV implications of self-identifying names". Isn't that exactly bringing back prescription through the back door? WP:USEENGLISH doesn't take concern about NPOV implications, exactly because it is impeccably descriptive and non-prescriptive; it very rightly doesn't take concern of (N)POV issues at all, that's just the point. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:17, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
And Mumbai has the additional complication that it passed in part on the basis that India is an English-speaking country, so {{WP:ENGVAR]] applies. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 05:40, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Fut. Perf. on this. I'm really uneasy with the idea of moving away from the "impeccably descriptive and non-prescriptive" nature of our core criterion of common English usage, which I understand as being basically the same approach that led to the idea of "verifiability, not truth" (in this case, "common English usage, not official or local or ethnicity-based or true name"). It's a can of worms; it has NPOV implications; it would mean using different names from the ones our readership would commonly find elsewhere; etc. Let's patiently wait to see if English usage itself changes. - Best regards, Ev (talk) 20:10, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Republic of Kosov@"

Find sources: Republic of Kosovo — news, books, scholar
Find sources: Republic of Kosova — news, books, scholar

I find that "Republic of Kosovo" is about four times more commonly used than "Republic of Kosova" at this point. dab (𒁳) 09:39, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

We should be careful not to commit the famous logical fallacy - argumentum ad populum. That is, the fact tha 98% of the world believes in some supernatural form (i.e. God) does not mean that God exists. The same way, the fact that Google returns four times as many hits for "Kosovo" as it would for "Kosova" does not mean that Wikipedia should accept the former in favor of the latter. It should, in fact, accept the correct name, the official name, which is (according the the Kosovan government) - Kosova.--Arbër Let's talk 10:24, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Nomenclature isn't a metaphysical question like the existence of God. It is a matter of convention. Our policy is to use the most common spelling in English language usage. There may be room for debate if conventions in academic literature differ from those in newspapers etc. But if one spelling is clearly the most common throughout English language sources, that's the one Wikipedia will use. You will also note that the Greece article is called "Greece", not "Hellas", simply because that's the common English name, in spite of what Greek authorities would like. That has nothing to do with Greece being an independent state, it's a simple matter of the English lexicon. I note that the OED has:

  • Kosovan, n. and adj.: = Kosovar n. and adj.
  • Kosovar: n. and adj.:
    • n.: A native or inhabitant of the region of Kosovo, bordering Serbia, Montenegro, Albania, and Macedonia. (The term is frequently used to refer specifically to an Albanian-speaking inhabitant of Kosovo.)
    • adj.: Of or relating to Kosovo or its inhabitants.

The OED isn't aware of the spelling Kosova. dab (𒁳) 10:38, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that's factually correct, but logically incorrect (that was my point - anyway :)). --Arbër Let's talk 10:39, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
terminology isn't "logical", it's conventional. It may change over time ("Kosovan" appears to be gaining ground on "Kosovar"), but Wikipedia is not the place to coin new terminology, it has to reflect current conventions. dab (𒁳) 11:22, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sources for Kosovo placenames

moved from guideline page

(add gazetteers, maps etc here)

The best source that enforces the order Albanian (A)/Serbian (S) is the 2000/43 UNMIK Regulation, which may be found here.--Arbër Let's talk 13:14, 25 February 2008 (UTC)


Does the regulation actually say "use Albanian first"? BalkanFever 10:55, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
Regulations are not prepared to give directives regarding the order of names, but they do give the order of names. See Schedule A of the Regulation to verbally comprehend the order: Albanian/Serbian. --Arbër Let's talk 11:20, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
It's a table. The names are written parallel. BalkanFever 11:31, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

guys, this has been long debated. We can give both Serbian and Albanian names. But we necessarily need to give them in linear order. The best we have been able to come up with in the spirit of WP:NPOV is alphabetic order, first Albanian, then Serbian (or, if you prefer, Shqip, then Srpski). This is for listings of the native nomenclature. Of course English usage (common anglicizations) will trump these for the question of article titling. There may be room for the argument that for toponyms in North Kosovo, where there is a Serbian majority, the sequence may be inverted to Serbian, Albanian. dab (𒁳) 11:57, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

My point is there is no enforcement of any particular order. If we go by alphabetical on wiki, so be it. But I'm quite sure the UNMIK was concentrating on just including the Albanian language names, rather than putting them "before" the Serbian names. BalkanFever 12:08, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
I would suggest naming them accorfing to their ethnic population (e.g : Prishtina is mostly albanian populated so the name should be Prishtina , while novo brdo is mostly serbian populated so Novo Brdo)--Cradel 12:10, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
this sounds reasonable for clear-cut cases, but may lead to endless bickering in borderline cases.... oh well, it will be a case-by-case discussion in any case. dab (𒁳) 06:05, 28 February 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Kosovar / Kosovan

According to dictionary.com and the Oxford dictionary, Kosovar is the correct demonym for Kosovo. Grammaticaly it should have been Kosovan, however in this case due to the widespread usage of the term Kosovar, this has generally been replaced the with Kosovar. I believe this version should be applied.

No so long ago the US spokesman referred to "Kosovar Serbs" and "Kosovar Albanians" living in peace. I disagree that the term Kosovar causes confusion. Most people who would be confused are the ones that woudn't know anything about Kosovo.

I found that people that never heard of Kosovo tend to say, "Kosovians", "kosovovians", in spain I encountered, "Kosovovos" or "Kosoveños".

Kosovar is a widely accepted term in most european languages. See elpais.es, lemonde.fr, or even local balkan versions jutarnji.hr (croatian best selling daily) or delo.si (slovenian daily). They all refer to them as Kosovares, Kosovari, Kosovars etc.

Most english speakers refer to its people as Kosovars. United Kingdom however tends to use the term Kosovan. This alone doesn't justify it's exclusive use.Logitech999 (talk) 16:37, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

According to the CIA world factbook [1] , the noun and adjective for Kosovo are:
  • noun : Kosovoan
  • adjective : Kosovoan--Cradel 20:54, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
very idiosyncratic... a simple google search shows that it is hundreds of times less current than either "Kosovan" or "Kosovar". dab (𒁳) 08:03, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

CIA word factbook has corrected itself as it is written now:

  • noun: Kosovar (Albanian), Kosovac (Serbian)
  • adjective: Kosovar (Albanian), Kosovski (Serbian)
  • note: Kosovan, a neutral term, is sometimes also used as a noun or adjective --Tubesship (talk) 21:45, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Order

Radiant suggested that WP:MOSMAC put its recommendations first and the reasons for them below. This seems to work well.

The major problem with it is, as Chris knows, that the different factions each see it as legitimizing their own preference, which is why it (briefly) claimed consensus. Let's not do this again. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 04:20, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Obsolete?

I don't know that we want to describe Kossovo as obsolete, although Cossovo may be. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 04:20, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

can you point to any recent usage? The spelling on google news is so rare as to suggest misspelling. --dab (𒁳) 12:40, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Google Books shows 540 since 2000. Some of these, like the first, reflect the spelling of the First World War; but most do not. (Many are the battle, or the place, but it is the same word.)
The real reason not to say this is that Kossovo is the Croatian, and represents the Serbian, spelling. Declaring the Serbian spelling obsolete is pouring gasoline on a fire. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:47, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
And we do not want that right, because we stick to the facts here. O do give me a brake with this crap. This is an encyclopedia. It is meant to be written based on facts and not to favour or hurt someones feelings. Jawohl (talk) 08:31, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] When ?

This guidelines seem quite fair and neutral , no ? When will they be implemented ? Cradel 21:36, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Implementation

Who will be actually implementing this guidelines? Do the editors/users need to do it and always refer to them?. Thanks 85.144.179.57 (talk) 14:33, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] correct English terms

Is it Kosovo or Kosova? And is it Pristina or Prishtina? i don't want a reply without a good source, otherwise i will see it as void. Ijanderson977 (talk) 22:07, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Is an native speaker a good source? I as an Albanian say "Kosova" and..., well I have to admit, at least in the Albanian accent that we speak (from Tetova, Macedonia), we say neither "Pristina" nor "Prishtina" but "Prishtine". And here is the official governmental website of Prishtina: http://www.prishtina-komuna.org/ and here is the official governmental website of Kosova: http://www.ks-gov.net/portal/eng.htm You see, officially it is written "Kosova" and "Pristina" --Tubesship (talk) 22:49, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
You mean Prishtina instead of Pristina. 85.144.179.57 (talk) 11:01, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ferizaj, Gjakove and others

Ferizaj is the youngest City in Kosovo, founded in 1896 by the Turks. Originally it had only a railroad station and a "motel" who's owner was Feriz. Thus later the location became known as the place of Feriz or Ferizaj. Urosevac was added only later when Kosovo was annexed by Serbia after 1912. Gjakove is founded by the family of Jakova, common albanian christian family name, which throughout the times changed it's form onto Gjakove and was also changed by the serbs onto Djakovice. Prizren comes from the Albanian (pesrend) which means five rows and describes the houses situated on the hilltop under the castle. Lipjan derives from the name of old Roman City of Ulpiana. Novobrdo, one of the most powerful Kosovo cities in the 14th century was founded as Neuberg and later translated onto Novobrdo, is known by the albanians by the name Artana (because of the gold mines)

Serbs did not only change place names or created new ones but changed also peoples names especially after 1989. For example Gashi and Thaçi were changed to Gasi and Taci. If you think that wikipedia should take onto account these changes which every colonial power enforced, then you are clearly out of touch. In a lot of discussions forums, serbs use as an argument that Kosovo is Serbia because there are so many serb named places. But local population has their own albanian names and wikipedia will not able able to change that. 85.144.179.57 (talk) 08:09, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm surprised they didn't change Thaçi to Tačič (just kidding) --Cradel 11:44, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
What exactly is your point in regards to place names? In regards to people's surnames - no. Thaçi wasn't changed to Tači, that is just how it is pronounced in Serbian - and Serbian orthographic convention is "write as you speak". There is no "th" sound; it becomes "t". Gashi becomes Gaši because Serbian has it's own alphabet - it doesn't use the Albanian one. BalkanFever 08:23, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Why should english then use serb letters for name places in Kosova?85.144.179.57 (talk) 14:12, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Peoples surnames were changed in their personal documents (birth certificates, ID's etc.) and yes Serbian language does not have: th, sh, zh, q , ç and other letters used by the albanian language but their typewriters or computers do have these letters and yet they did change them. Peoples and place names in the Balkans have been changed by most of the countries (Turkey, Macedonia, Greece, Bullgaria, Serbia, Kosovo etc.) and mostly for political reasons and not for practical or linguistic ones. Wikipedia should use the names used by the majority in these places otherwise it will turn into an political instrument. 85.144.179.57 (talk) 09:24, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
I know my surname was changed ( Çapriqi to Čaprič - notice the change : the iqi part was changed to ič , which is the way most serbian surnames end (also with vič), in order to make it sound serbian, if this was only a linguistic matter it would have been changed to Čapriči and not Čaprič ) - thank god its good now --Cradel 11:28, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] No need for a separate policy or guideline

We have a general rule to use for place names the most used variants in English language. We don't need a separate guideline only for Kosovo.--MariusM (talk) 12:54, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually , we do , please read this manual for more information why it is necessary--Cradel 14:07, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
of course he have "general rules". What do you think would happen if we didn't keep track of consensus how to apply these guidelines to specific cases? Correct: the exact same debates would be rehashed over and over and over again with no memory of what has been said before. Come on. Obviously these specific guidelines need to comply with the general guidelines. dab (𒁳) 14:11, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
I also think that we do and besides as you said we have a general rule, why not have some specific rules as well :) 85.144.179.57 (talk) 18:34, 2 April 2008 (UTC)



[edit] Pristina vs. Prishtina

[edit] KOSOVO'S CONSTITUTION SPELLS "PRISTINA" AS SO

We should spell Pristina the same way the Republic of Kosovo's Constitution does as that makes sense. Kosovo's Constitution spells it as "Pristina". Please read Chapter 1 Article 13 Kosovo's Constitution Ijanderson977 (talk) 18:49, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Here is a final copy of the constitution Kosovo's Constitution FINAL COPY. This too spells the city as Pristina. Please read Chapter 1 Article 13 Ijanderson977 (talk) 19:23, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
The constitution has been approved by the EU and according to news it will be adopted tomorrow in Kosovo parliament. It's a done deal. There will be no further changes. Therefore you can not disagree with the spelling. Now we must update the articles accordingly Ijanderson977 (talk) 19:35, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree we should spell it "Pristina", but I insist the constitution draft does have nothing to do with that. We need to follow de facto current usage in notable (and neutral) English language sources, not one single document, let alone a partisan one. --dab (𒁳) 14:23, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

But that shows that even the Kosovo Govt agree that in English it is spelled "Pristina". The English translation for the Albanian version of "Prishtina" is Pristina. We should use the English version for English Wikipedia and the Albanian version for Albanian Wikipedia. Seems logical to me. Also Google news hits... Pristina gets 1,638 hits [2], "Prishtina" gets 49 hits [3]. English speakers overwhemingly prefer Pristina. Pristina is also neutral as it's not the Serbian or Albanian spelling. Almost all of the governments that recognise Kosovo use Pristina (see [4] [5] [6], etc.). 2008
  • CIA WORLD FACT BOOK [7]
  • BBC Country Profiles [8]

These two who are very important in the English speaking world and spell it as "Pristina".
Ijanderson977 (talk) 15:22, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

you have a point. As I said, I agree with the spelling Pristina, I just don't think the constitution draft has any relevance in this. dab (𒁳) 18:07, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] We should add to this article that "Pristina" is the correct spelling of the city

Shall i add this to the page as a final consensus is needed on the name of the city?
Please read in the above section named "KOSOVO'S CONSTITUTION SPELLS "PRISTINA" AS SO" before commenting on this Ijanderson977 (talk) 18:35, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] RfC on the Prishtina/Pristina/Priština naming dispute

A Request for Comment has been opened at Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Kosovo-related articles)/Prishtina-Pristina-Priština regarding the disagreement over the naming of Kosovo's capital city. Although I would like to remind everyone that RfCs are not votes, all constructive discussion and comments are welcome at that page. Happy‑melon 20:15, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I have made some comments after Happy-melon gauged consensus. - Best regards, Ev (talk) 02:46, 5 May 2008 (UTC)


[edit] THIS NEEDS TO BE ADDED

Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Kosovo-related articles)/Prishtina-Pristina-Priština. A consensus was reached that on English Wikipedia we are to spell the name of that capital/ largest city of Kosovo as "Pristina". So this must be included for future edits. Ijanderson977 (talk) 20:53, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely. --Tocino 01:50, 21 May 2008 (UTC)