Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles)/Ogasawara Islands debate

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was oppose. --Endroit 06:22, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Poll: "Ogasawara Islands" instead of "Bonin Islands"

Proposal — Use "Ogasawara Islands" instead of the common English name "Bonin Islands", in body texts and in page names.

This poll is intended to resolve the conflict between the current page name Ogasawara Islands, and the English words of Japanese origin rule of WP:MOS-JA.

• A "support" vote suggests a change in WP:MOS-JA to make an exception for "Ogasawara Islands".
• An "oppose" vote suggests a page move from Ogasawara Islands → Bonin Islands.

This poll will run for 2 weeks starting now.--Endroit 23:04, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Survey

Add  * '''Support'''  or  * '''Oppose'''  on a new line followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.

• Oppose — Major dictionaries and encyclopedias seem to agree that it's called "Bonin Islands" in English. (The Ogasawara Islands article should be moved to Bonin Islands).--Endroit 23:18, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment: Please provide a few links showing this. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 03:24, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
    • Please see the citations/links I just provided below, in the "Discussion" section.--Endroit 05:01, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose as the article should be at Bonin Islands, but should definitely include Ogasawara Islands and any other common names in the first paragraph. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 06:09, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose Hmm, I didn't even notice that the Wikipedia article was located at Ogasawara Islands until now. —Tokek 09:19, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose per common usage. "Ogasawara Islands" - 58,800. "Bonin Islands" - 114,000. Jecowa 18:52, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

• "Bonin Islands" citations online:
  1. The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition, 2000
  2. The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition, 2001-05
  3. Encyclopædia Britannica, 2006
  4. MSN Encarta, 2006

--Endroit 04:57, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• "Bonin Islands" entry in Merriam-Webster Unabridged. Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, Eleventh Edition & Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged. Merriam-Webster, 2002. http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com (subscription required):

Main Entry: Bo·nin Islands

Pronunciation: ˈbō-nən

Variant(s): or Oga·sa·wa·ra Islands \(ˌ)ō-ˌgä-sä-ˈwär-ä\

Function: geographical name

islands W Pacific about 600 miles (966 kilometers) SSE of Tokyo; belong to Japan; administered by United States 1945-68 area 40 square miles (104 square kilometers), population 1507

--Endroit 04:57, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• "Bonin Islands" mentioned in CIA world factbook map —Tokek 09:19, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was oppose. --Endroit 06:22, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Poll: "Ryūkyū" instead of "Ryukyu"

Proposal — Use the macronned form "Ryūkyū" instead of the common English form "Ryukyu", for all instances of the word "Ryukyu", in body texts and in page names.

This poll is intended to resolve the conflict between the following 2 rules in WP:MOS-JA:

1. Section 10 in the Romanisation rule, which says "Island names should always include macrons...."
2. The English words of Japanese origin rule.

This vote will not affect the unmacronned usage of the words "Ryukyuan" and "Ryukyuans", as already discussed above. Based on the results of this poll, exception clause(s) will be written into the relevant sections appropriately.

This poll will run for 2 weeks starting now.--Endroit 23:04, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Survey

Add  * '''Support'''  or  * '''Oppose'''  on a new line followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.

• Oppose — Major dictionaries and encyclopedias use "Ryukyu" without any macrons in English. Ryukyu Islands and related articles should be moved back to their unmacronned form.--Endroit 23:21, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

• Strong support As shown in the bibliography excerpt, a great many professionally published English books on the subject use the properly spelled form "Ryūkyū". That includes Ryūkyū used alone as well as in Ryūkyū Islands. More importantly, it is overbearing to always prefer "Ryukyu" over "Ryūkyū" in all cases as this poll suggests. "Ryūkyū" is the more precise form; redirects already exists for the less precise "Ryukyu". Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. It needs to be accurate and precise. There is no need to simplify or make it less precise. Bendono 02:27, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

  From the way I read it, the proposal is suggesting to always prefer "Ryūkyū" over "Ryukyu" in all cases. If so, you are actually strongly supporting an overbearing proposal, not opposing one. —Tokek 15:18, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose as "Ryukyu" is by far the most commonly used way to write it. In all applicable cases, however, the rōmaji instances (when kanji are given) should be "Ryūkyū". ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 06:13, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

"by far the most commonly"? Did you notice the bibliography excerpt bibliography excerpt showing many examples to the contrary? Those were only in book titles (and excluded linguistic works). It is far more prevalent in actual text. Bendono 06:33, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

You ignored my question about what percentage of the books on the topic those examples actually represented. Dekimasu 12:36, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose (sort of). I have no expertise in Japan-related subjects, so I don't have a strong opinion on this issue. However, I wanted to note that point #10 "Island names should always include macrons...", whatever its history, is in a section entitled "Body text", with the additional line "Take care with these points regarding usage in article body text (anything that is not the title of the article):" so #10's relevance to the article's title isn't as transparent as it might seem. The following section in MOS-JP, "Article titles", says "Article titles should follow all of the points above, with the following exceptions: ... 2. Article titles should use macrons as specified for body text except in cases where the macronless spelling is in common usage in English-speaking countries (e.g., Tokyo, Osaka, Sumo and Shinto, instead of Tōkyō, Ōsaka, Sumō and Shintō)." So the MOS-JP seems to be distinguishing between article titles and the form to use in body text. It's not clear to me whether the poll is about the article title, the form to use in the article text, or both. The examples from dictionaries/encyclopedias seem to indicate that the macronless form is common English usage, even though specialist works use macrons, so I'd prefer an article title "Ryukyu Islands"; however, I wouldn't have a big problem with the macronned form in the main text.

For those editors who are citing scholarly works as the correct form over sources such as Webster's, I would note that in other areas WP uses a spelling or transliteration standard that deviates from academic practice--see WP:GREEK for an example. The standard laid out there is very different from what you'd find in an academic journal. --Akhilleus (talk) 07:00, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose per common usage. "Ryukyu," with 882,000 hits, is 1888 times more common than "Ryūkyū," which has 467 hits. If you only include pages that include the terms "linguistic" or "linguist" then "Ryukyu," with 20,700 hits, is only 339 times more common than "Ryūkyū," which has 61 hits. Jecowa 19:30, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

• Support per linguistic accuracy. As I have stated before, Ryūkyū is a more proper form of romanization for 琉球. Even if it's been absorbed into English-language usage, this is not like "tycoon", which has been divorced of it's original meaning. "Ryukyu" in English refers to 琉球, and only to that; it should be spelled correctly, not dumbed-down, watered-down, Anglicized. LordAmeth 00:53, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

If you wish correct spelling then choose "Ryukyu." It is the correct spelling of the word. This can be seen in many dictionaries such as reference.com and webster.com. The Oxford dictionary mentions Ryukyu in the Ryukyu Islands entry, but has no mention of Ryūkyū. Jecowa 01:41, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

No, the correct spelling is "Ryūkyū". Arguing for "Ryukyu" is like arguing that 49 / 100 is equal to 0.5 when it is 0.49. "Ryukyu" is close, but still not accurate. "Ryūkyū" is the most accurate spelling. A great many books (partial bibliography excerpt) do use the more accurate form "Ryūkyū". Wikipedia needs to be accurate, not merely close. Bendono 02:03, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

"Ryūkyū" more closely indicates the Japanese spelling than "Ryukyu," but the English spelling can be found in English dictionaries. Jecowa 04:40, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

A lot of things can be found in English dictionaries which aren't really English words, or which aren't really words at all, but merely colloquialisms and such. Even though "truthiness" is in Merriam-Webster, does that really make it a word? LordAmeth 10:13, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

LordAmeth, you're just happenning to contradict ALL English dictionaries in this case. If ALL the English dictionaries list "Ryukyu Islands" or "Ryukyu" WITHOUT macrons, the macronless form "Ryukyu" is correct English, and the macronned form "Ryūkyū" is NOT correct English; that's all. Also, tycoon (大君, taikun^?) wouldn't have macrons to begin with. Perhaps you meant to say sumō (相撲, sumō^?), tōfu (豆腐, tōfu^?), or Tōshiba (東芝, Tōshiba^?)?--Endroit 11:16, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I used "tycoon" as my example intentionally, as it is one of the few words to have been taken from Japanese fully into English, adopting a meaning and usage completely outside of the Japanese context. Unlike sushi, sumō, Ryūkyū, and the like, which are only used in reference to the same meaning they hold in Japanese, "tycoon" has been fully adopted into the English language and thus the romanized spelling, taikun, referring to the original Japanese word, is no longer valid. I must say, I honestly don't care if I'm going against every popular English language dictionary. Look at any scholarly article, scholarly text on Japan, any dictionary or encyclopedia specifically devoted to Japanese terms, and you'll find that nearly all of them use macrons (or spelled out romanization, e.g. "ou", "uu") in every case. LordAmeth 11:44, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

• Support I won't argue the point on the basis of what is or is not proper in transliterating from Japanese to English, since that is a matter of custom, however the inclusion of macrons in the English forms of Japanese words and names seems to be increasingly common, the practice is more exacting in referring to the language of origin, and the macrons are not especially distracting to an English reader with little knowledge of things Japanese. I think it makes more sense to retain such diacritics unless there is a clear reason not to. Pinkville 01:28, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Your premise would have to be that "Ryukyu Islands" and "Ryukyu" are NOT an English word, thereby contradicting ALL English dictionaries.--Endroit 11:16, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

By no means do "ALL" English dictionaries support your case. A glance at the Library of Congress Authorities, surely one of the most trustworthy sources available, gives "Ryūkyū" as a variant for Ryukyu Islands. And the trend seems to be towards increasing use of macrons in Japanese names and words in English transliteration (when not already incorporated into English, as with your later example of "tofu" [which comes to us via Japanese from Chinese, by the way]). Furthermore, "Ryūkyū"/"Ryukyu" is a proper noun, not a common word, it precisely is "NOT an English word", so all the more reason for it to be rendered in a manner that comes closer to the language of origin. Pinkville 13:56, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

A further note, the authoritative Getty Thesaurus of Geographic Names actually prefers the Japanese Nansei-shotō to any of the Ryūkyū variants. Then again, probably the just alternative would be to use a form like Luchu that more closely resembles the Okinawan... Pinkville 00:23, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

• Support Both forms exist and are verifiable, thus I go for the most accurate rōmaji one.--Húsönd 05:06, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Sure, why not use "the most accurate rōmaji" for sumō (相撲, sumō^?), tōfu (豆腐, tōfu^?), and Tōshiba (東芝, Tōshiba^?) as well?--Endroit 11:16, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, that's not a bad idea. Although the forms without macrons are far more common, the ones with macrons are more accurate and using them on Wikipedia article titles would not only be harmless as also educational.--Húsönd 18:57, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Toshiba is a company name... It's proper English to use Toshiba. WhisperToMe 02:39, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

• Support. The version with macrons is more informative and more precise than that without, which, it can be argued, is plain wrong within a context (WP articles) that provide macrons elsewhere, and certainly risks giving the wrong impression. A non-trivial percentage of readers are likely to benefit in some way from the use of macrons. Those who are uninterested in the long/short distinction, in approximating the Japanese pronunciation or in orthography will be free to ignore the macrons provided by others. -- Hoary 08:17, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, and ALL the dictionaries were wrong to begin with, because sumō (相撲, sumō^?), tōfu (豆腐, tōfu^?), and Tōshiba (東芝, Tōshiba^?) would be "more informative and more precise" for the reader as well, right?--Endroit 11:16, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

They would indeed, yes. I'd be happy with sumō and tōfu; but as "tofu" now appears to be completely assimilated within English, "tōfu" might seem a bit pedantic or quaint (cf "façade"). (Offhand I can't judge the degree to which "sumo"/"sumō" has been assimilated.) They're words, not names. Toshiba is the romanized form that's chosen by 東芝 itself and that is (I think) universally used. As for Ryūkyū/Ryukyu, unlike a corporation or person it can't choose how to spell itself. I'm not much influenced in any Japanese governmental choice of spelling, as Japanese (quasi-) government organs make such a balls-up of romanization. I'm certainly not influenced by the practice of the US occupation regime. And when it comes to names I'm not much interested in general-purpose English dictionaries. To go further back in this thread, I'd like Tōkyō and Ōsaka too. (There's nothing specifically Japanese about this: I'd also like Rīga.) -- Hoary 14:25, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose per Endroit's arguments-XinJeisan 11:45, 10 December 2006 (UTC)XinJeisan

• Oppose and this poll is obviously not going to get us to consensus, either. Dekimasu 12:36, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

• Support per the above arguments, but yeah, we won't get consensus here, it seems. —Nightstallion (?) 17:32, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

• Support: Typically I only like the non-macroned form for very famous place names like "Tokyo" and "Osaka" -- Ryūkyū just doesn't make the cut in my opinion. --awh (Talk) 23:13, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

• Support: Common usage is more than a comparison of google hit counts. For one thing, taking into account the fact that Wikipedia has only allowed Unicode for a little more than a year, expecting all other internet sites around the world to update just as swiftly to a (more correct / different -- depending on your point of view) way of writing transliterated words is unreasonable. At Wikipedia (for better or worse), the number and types of editors we have leads to a culture of trailblazing to some extent. Going by popularity is also subject to the whims of the world at large. If AP/CNN/Reuters all of a sudden decided that "Hey, these macrons are a good idea", then the number of sources which use them would slowly start to dwarf the number which don't. The editorial decisions of those groups are not something which we can control, though, and basing our policies on theirs is not the best way to do things in my opinion. At one point, 倭 was the most common (only) written form for "Japan", but I don't see many people pushing for that renaming. Using Google to determine how entrenched/popular a particular word is in English is acceptable, but still prone to inaccuraceies when comparing across a broad spectrum of subjects. Geographically, comparing the popularity of cities is easy. Determining the popularity of Ryuku/Ryūkyū is complicated given the different ways it can be used (island chain, kingdom, language, culture, etc); however, assuming all of the hits are for the island chain, its 882,000 Ghits are still less than Honshū (1.4 Million). If Japan called the islands 琉球諸島, then my vote would be strong support. Neier 01:12, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for the valuable comments. However, I am sure that someone will point out that Japan (presently) calls the chain of islands 南西諸島. This issue has been discussed enough and no one is proposing "Nansei Islands" (which already exists as a redirect) so it really has no bearing on this case. Whether the origin of English "Ryūkyū Islands" is 琉球諸島, 琉球列島, or even somehow 南西諸島, it is obvious that Ryūkyū (even Ryukyu) is to be identified as 琉球. Hopefully we do not need to rehash that conversation again here. Besides, this vote is about Ryūkyū vs. Ryukyu in general, and not only about the expression "Ryūkyū Islands". Bendono 02:18, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to stress that when we romanize, we transliterate: there is a word in Japanese that has a certain meaning that we want to express or explain and for that purpose we approximate the word in latin characters. But in this case, we don't want to give the impression that we are romanizing, because we aren't using something like Nansei-shotō. Ryukyu, as used in English, is certainly based on a Japanese word, but it is now an English word with an English meaning. There is no macrons in English like there is in (some forms of) romanized Japanese. Wipe 08:25, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

That's why I said that it would be "strong support" if Japan still used this name. It's my opinion that the layperson would not recognize the word Ryukyu (Ryūkyū) if you asked them about it, so, we should strive for accuracy above repeating the same casual attitude that has resulted in the less accurate spelling in other sources. As pointed out above, some published books have taken the time to make it correct, so it is not like we are making things up. Macrons don't appear out of thin air; however, they can easily disappear. Neier 14:07, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

What is it that is so accurate and correct about implying a Japanese meaning when we use the English one? There is a difference, whether some layperson knows it or not. Wipe 00:44, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Oppose - Unless the macronned form is seen in any proper dictionary, I shall vote oppose. WhisperToMe 02:39, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose - From WP:NC: Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature. In this case, macronless form is easier to recognize as it is the form used in English dictionaries and is not ambiguous as there's no entiries about Ryukyu, Ryūkyu nor Ryukyū other than this usage. --Kusunose 03:54, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose - In my opinion, Ryukyu is naturalised enough with all the English suffixes, somewhat anglicanized pronunciation (c.f. the dictionary entries), connections with American history, and different scope compared to current Japanese usage. The island chain is Ryukyu Islands (or the Ryukyus for short). The languages are Ryukyuan. There should be very little need to use the word Ryukyu alone as-it-is, but in these cases, e.g. when talking about the Japanese term, macrons should be used. Also, use the nihongo template where appropriate. Wipe 07:07, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

• Support - The macroned form encourages correct pronunciation of the term, while (in my opinion at least) not being distracting to the lay-reader. It also hints towards the Japanese origin of the word, which I think is a good thing. Academic texts (which I believe Wikipedia should strive to be) use the macroned form for these reasons. Bobo12345 13:32, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose - Ryukyu appears in English terms as well, so I oppose renaming * all* instances. There is no practice of using macrons for English terms outside of Wikipedia. This is like saying all occurances of "Italy" should be renamed to "Italia", "typhoon" to "táifēng", "pork" to "porcus" (Latin origin) in article titles to encourage "correct" pronounciation. The proposal has too much far reaching consequences that probably goes against other Wikipedia policies anyway. —Tokek 15:18, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

It is interesting how all of your examples change much more than just a macron. At present, there is no specific rule for Ryūkyū or Ryukyu. If there is a consensus for Ryukyu, it will be added as an exception like Tokyo. That may be used to argue for Ryukyu in all cases. I do not know how it would be written if there is a consensus for Ryūkyū. However, it would not be listed as one of the exceptions. Thus, there may be more freedom in the interpretation. In the end, whatever the result is, it will probably be used to argue all Ryukyu or Ryūkyū either way. Bendono 22:16, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose Page titles also function as search terms and link targets. Therefore they should be something that is easy to type on a standard English keyboard. Native spelling, pronunciation and Romanization can be listed in the article. --Dgies 18:24, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

There are already appropriate redirects. That will not change regardless of the conclusion made here. You can access the various pages with or without macrons. The result of this vote will be used to change the spelling of Ryukyu or Ryūkyū in the actual articles. If some useful redirects are missing, please add them or let us know. Bendono 22:16, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose Not standard English spelling. Rmhermen 00:41, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose I am generally opposed to all rules requiring the use of macrons in English texts intended for a general audience. -- Meyer 02:41, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

What exactly are you voting for? Again, I ask for clarification: is this poll for "Ryūkyū" vs "Ryukyu" or "Ryūkyū Islands" vs. "Ryukyu Islands". As shown already, many books also use "Ryūkyū" and even "Ryūkyū Islands" with macrons as well in English. Also note that a "Ryūkyū Islands" -> "Ryukyu Islands" poll just ended with no consensus a few weeks ago. As is often done with other pages, it may be best to wait a few months again before trying this again. Bendono 00:14, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

The scope is ALL occurrences of the word "Ryukyu" in text bodies and page names, except "Ryukyuan" and "Ryukyans". Question is: Do we use Ryūkyū with macrons, instead of Ryukyu?

This poll is required to clarify the interpretation of WP:MOS-JA, since WP:MOS-JA itself is in conflict due to a later addition (item 10 of the "romanisation" rule).

Ask admins for an opinion. If the other related poll was "no consensus" and if this poll has a clear consensus, that should weigh heavily. That's because the other poll kept referring back here to WP:MOS-JA, which means the interpretation of WP:MOS-JA was in question in the other poll. Obviously, that needs to be clarified first, before any admin or arbitrator can make a decision on the final page name. In my opinion, this can be a part of WP:DR, and may escalate into WP:Arb, if there is no resolution here.--Endroit 00:46, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.