User talk:Manu rocks

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नमस्कार! Manu rocks,Wikipedia Embassy from Marathi Wikipedia(आंतरविकि दूतावास) invites you to Marathi Wikipedia!This template shall keep you informed about support and contribution required in various Marathi Wikipedia articles in times to come.


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Mahitgar 17:47, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Nambiar

Hello Manu! I see that you have placed a Deletion tag on the Nambiar (Kshatriya) article. The issue was deemed as "No consensus" on the 8th of October 2006. Please explain why you wish to bring up the issue again, and what problems you have with the article. Suggestions are always welcome. Kshatriya Grandmaster

Hello Mannu! I am questioning a point that you have made on discussion pages. I believe that there are Nambiars who are Samantha Kshatriyas and some who are Illathu Nayars, as you say. The Jenmimar Nambiars, as shown in certain records, were extremely wealthy and were 2nd in line to the king. In fact many of these Nambiar women only married wealthy Nambuthris. There are also Nambiars of high rank who wear poonul (these Nambiars occupy an uncertain rank between Nambuthris and Nairs). In fact especially in the Malabar there were Rajahs who belonged to the Nambiar caste (just as there were Nambuthri and Nair Rajahs in certain parts). So to claim that all Nambiars are Illathu Nayars is wrong. Kshatriya Grandmaster 04:38, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] SanjKaimal

Copied from User talk:59.144.109.79 (You weren't signed in when you posted on my talk page so I accidentally left this there)

I've warned SanjKaimal about the vandalism and will monitor his further edits, obviously since I am not an Indian I can't recognize his attacks. I he continues let me know and if he doesn't stop after that I will report him and he will be blocked from editing. If there is anything else I can do let me know.--Joe Jklin (T C) 10:01, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

He appears to have stopped. If you notice any other problems let me know, you can go through his edits here and try and fix any other vandalism. Happy editing!--Joe Jklin (T C) 10:18, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image tagging for Image:LakshmiPillaiKochama.jpg

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[edit] Image tagging for Image:LakshmiPillaiKochamma.jpg

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[edit] Travancore State Manual

Do you know where I may be able to get a copy of it? In English, that is. --vi5in[talk] 21:57, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the info, Manu! --vi5in[talk] 00:02, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

What is the price ? Tintin 01:59, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Tintin 07:11, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ambalavasis

Dear Manu, I have noticed that you are deleting the Pushpaka brahmin or ambalavasi links wherever they appear. If you go for a search and research, it would be clear that there was group of castes named Pushpakas and even now there is an organization for these castes. It is Sree Pushpaka Seva Sangham. As far as my knowledge its head quatrers is either at Trivandrum or art Ernakulam. It is not fair to deleting these links without any purpose.

Dear Sir since you didnt leave tht post with an id im replying right here on my page. I m not sure if ull read it but nevertheless...Pushpakas are a special subgroup of the Ambalavasis...only the poonool wearing Ambalavasis were called Pushpakans..and although they wore poonools they are supposed to be degraded Brahmins and hence were never considered Brahmins...Thats y i keep deleting the word Brahmin always...all ambalavasis are not pushpakas.

I saw the page of ur ip address...you are from Thalavur?? This is a personal quetion...is there an old family there called Parasseri or Parasheeril...they are Pillais...kindly do tell me...thanks

[edit] Hi

Hey Manu,

Do you have the page/paragraph with the information about Paliath Achan? --vi5in[talk] 17:12, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Manu! I was able to get a PDF of the book from Google Books (But I still don't know where in the book the info is). If you want, I can email you the file. Just send me your email address. --vi5in[talk] 20:36, 19 May 2007 (UTC)


[edit] From Hari

The Mallasseril family was a branch of 'Kunnath-Thans' and they were Kiriyaths. The Thottaman family was a sakha of the 'Munjanattu-Thans' and were Illaths. I think this is how I had said so before.

Land assessment was initially started by Marthanda Varma as 'Kettezhuthu'. Later, Velu Thampi introduced 'Kandezhuthu'. Surveys took place many times after Velu Thambi employing measured surveys. However certain classes of lands ( i'd mentioned them last time) were still exempted from surveillance. These were the ones included in the 30 years from 1883-1912. If you have been thru my website you would have seen a photo of my great-grandfather Kottakkal KR Sankara Pillai (my mother's grandfather). He was a Deputy Supervisor (Classifier) employed in the State Revenue Department during that period (Even then it was called the 'Kandezhuthu' department). He was involved in this particular Herculean survey. His boss in the department was Diwan Peshkar Nagam Aiya himself! (yes, the same person who wrote the first TSM).

Shall ask my cousin about Edasery Puthur.

There are two Mouttathu families. Both are Unnithans. The one in Cheriyanad is a sakha of the Vazhapadathu Unnithans. There are not many members. My perappan PG Kesava Pillai of Viruthiyathu, Chengannur is the son of Mouttathu Govindan Unnithan. He spent his childhood in Cheriyanad. They had alot of land there which subsequently became alienated. Perappan was a well-known person in Cheriyanad. He was probably one of the first to own a motorcycle and a car in that area. The Adoor Mouttathu Unnithans are a large family. This is Adoor Gopalakrishnan's tharavad. Many of my relatives have married into this family.

The registers are reference books hence available only to members. Of course ther eis a membership fee. i visit KCHR once in a while. Have to get myself a membership.

Sibi Unnithan is my chittappan's son. He's in Germany. (His great-grandfather, i.e, mother's father's father) is the Kunjukrishna Panicker mentioned in Kottarathil Sankunni's 'Aithihyamala' in the section on Vayaskara Moos. He was the Dewan Peshkar and 1st class magistrate at Kottayam in those days.

About Raja Ravi Varma. To put it simply, he married Bhageerathi Thampuratti of the Mavelikara Kottaram. Their eldest son was Rama Varma Raja (better known as Artist Thampuran. Yes he was trained in B'bay). Rama Varma Raja married Dewan PGN Unnithan's youngest sister Edassery Pattaveettil Gauri Kunjamma. There eldest son was Dr R (Rama Varma) Krishna Prasad who used to run the Malaya Dispensary at Mavelikara. He is no more. It is now run by his son. When my mother's eldest sister got married in 1946 in Mannar, her grandfather (the KR Sankara Pillai I'd mentioned earlier ) noted down in his diary that Artist Thampuran and many other Thampurans from the MVKA Kottaram had come to attend and celebrate the wedding, the reason being that the groom Capt Sreedhara Menon was the grandson of one of the Thampurans and a direct nephew of Artist Thampuran. It is another coincidence that Sreedhara Menon's daughter (my cousin) married yet another cousin of mine (from my father's side). That was none other than Dr RR Unnithan (grandson of Edassery Pattaveetil Parukutty Kunjamma, and Dewan's grand-nephew). Getting complicated, eh?

My grand-uncle and other uncles have married from the Kaduvinal family (Kuttiyamma Kunjamma m.Thottaman Govindan Unnithan, Parvati kunjamma md. Varikolil Govindan Unnithan, etc.). My mother's cousin Rajalakshmi of Mannar Mullasseril married Radhakrishnan Unnithan (Iththampallil), son of Kaduvinal Lakshmikutty Kunjamma (eldest sister of Kaduvinal Paramesaran Unnithan).

There is an ancient family of Unnithans related to us in Chetikulangara, called Chempolil. They have a documented recorded history prepared nearly three hundred years ago, by my uncles's great-great-great grandfather. The Chempollil family established and managed the famous Chettikulangara Devi temple till the early 20th century (later handed over to the Devaswom Board). This was consecrated in 824 AD (the very next year after the consecration at Kandiyur).

Last month there was an exhibition on the Pattanam excavations (at KCHR). It was good. They found remains of a wooden canoe. That's great because they can carbon-date it. This morning I attended a talk on the origins of the Ay kings (at the Heritage Forum, TVM). The Ays had a capital at Kadapra near Mannar during the 1st century AD. The Venad, Odanadu, Thekkumkoor and Vadakkumkoor Rajas and the Ambalapuzha Raja were their descendants. The talk was well-presented by eminent historian and scholar K Sivasankaran Nair (Retd PWD Engineer).

regards

Hari

[edit] Padmanabhaswamy Temple

Dear Manu ,

thanks for contributing Nair and kerala related articles. Do u feel very bad if some edits/remove some genuine content from those articles? thants what have happened to me too me. I have noticed, u have removed some content from ezhava article. I have added this only after refering many sites and even books. Since book reference cannot be given or properly varified u can refer to following links.

http://www.makemyholidays.com/pilgrimage_tour_kerala.html

http://www.experiencefestival.com/ganapathi

there are many sites which say abt this.

I have 1st read from a book "izhavar Anuum innum" By N r Krishnan IAS. Then searched in Google.

Also please discuss in discussion page before removing any content.

I duely respect Nair community and its culture. I hope u r giving very valuable details nair related articles. pleas continue contributing .... regards Daya Daya anjali 11:05, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reply from Daya

Dear manu, thanks for the reply. I appreciate ur comments. Though i cannot completely agree that the state manual is reference source for entire history of south kerala . I dont think u might have heard abt valiya mundakkal family who had fought with kollam rani to stop the invasion of travancore kings towards venad.(even I head only thru vamozhi) Also i dont think it has any refernce in the state manual abt Melathil tharavad of kanyakumari who has given shelter to Marthanda varma when was in exile. I am not here to Question the authenticity of state manual.

If you don’t like one particular section of the society or if you belong to particular society, you can manipulate history in any way to degrade/promote that section’s interest. That might have happened State manual also.

Its clearly mentioned name of the family , the couple belongs to in the book which i mentioned...


regards Daya anjali 04:50, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] From Hari

The only sakha of Munjanattu around Mavelikkara that I know of is 'Thottaman'. Apparently when the 'Munjanattu' family subdivided centuries ago, one branch went east to Ranni and settled down at the place called Thottaman and hence came to be known as 'Thottaman'. Even now there is a famous 'Thottaman Kavu Devi temple' there. One sakha of this family returned to Chengannur and settled down at the area called 'Punthala' near Thonakkad. This sakha went by the name 'Thottaman Punthala'. 'Thottaman Punthala' is the official name of my Dad's tharavad at Thonakkad. The other sakha remained at Ranni. They became the rulers of 'Ranni Desam'. The Thekkumkoor Raja (some say it was Anizham Tirunal Marthanda Varma), bestowed the title of 'Kartha' on them. They gained prominence as the 'Ranni Karthas' or the 'Kottayil Karthas'. The 'Kottayil' family name probably came from them setting up a 'fortified palace' in the area. Many books, even the 'Aitihyamala' refer to the 'Ranni Karthas'. I have not mentioned this in my website because I need to collect more details before I make any claims regarding this. One of my perappans knew this family and one of the members of this family had visited my father a few years ago, but unfortunately that gentleman died pretty soon thereafter, so I have to make fresh contacts with them. There is a book written by Sri KN Gopala Pillai, called 'Rani Mangala Bai'. This is a historical account (partly dramatized, with dialogues), which deals with the life of Sreedevi Kunjamma, the erstwhile ruler of Ranni Desam. There were no males left in the family. She was surrounded by enemies, so went into hiding with a trusted bodyguard. She spent her 'underground' life in the Thekkumkoor Raja's palace, the Kayamkulam raja's palace, and in the Vanjipuzha Thampuran's Kottaram. Finally, with the help of these rulers she regains the kingdom and marries her bodyguard who is a relative of Marthanda Varma's commander Chathu Panicker. In the meantime, she comes into contact with Marthanda Varma and Ramayyan (both in disguise) and later helps them in battle. This particular book went out of print 50 years ago and no one had heard of it. With the help of a librarian who had a dusty catalogue, I dug up this tattered and dusty book (in spite of the fact that I'm dust-allergic) from among a heap of books that hadn't probably seen the light of day for a century, and had it xeroxed. So it's precious. It mentions the Karnavar of the Vazhapadathu family at that time (around 1725 AD, when Marthandan was in hiding). This Karnavar, Vazhapadathu Kandan Kandan Panicker was the Sainyadhipan of the Thekkumkoor Raja at that time. As a bonus I found mention of a certain 'Madathani Krishna Pillai' who was the 'Thekkumkoor Raja's 'Karyasthan' or courtier. This pleased my father-in-law extremely, because 'Madathani' is his mother's tharavad in Chanaganacherry.

R Ramakrishnan Unnithan (Vijayan) is Padmavati Kunjamma's son. Sreedhara Menon's (my perappan's) father was Achanveetil Sankunni Menon. (He was known to us only as A. Sankunni Menon. I found out that the 'A' stood for his mother's tharavad 'Achanveetil' when I chanced upon his service records.He was Inspector of Schools in the Travancore Education Department. You have good observation skills. Yes , Menons are not indigenous to Travancore. Sankunni Menon's father (I'm trying to trace his name from other Mavelikara Kottaram members) ws a Thampuran of the Mavelikara kottaram. On one of his journeys up north he fell in love with an extremely beautiful Menon lady from Parappanangadi. He married her and brought her to MVKA. That's how Sankunni 'Menon' arrived in Travancore. Now I've found out that 'A' is for 'Achanveetil'. This again corroborates the evidence because quite a few Menons up north had the title 'Achan', like the 'Paliath' Achans, who were Menons. I had a classmate with the surname 'Achan'. His father and mother were Menons from Kochi. I did a search of 'Achanveetil' on the net. Found a Menon guy with 'Achanveettil' in his name. Sent him a post on Orkut but he hasn't replied yet. Sankunni Menon's father was most probably an uncle of Artist Thampuran, not the other way round (as I'd mistakenly written). Therefore PGN Unnithan's grand-nephew (RR Unnithan) married PGN's brother-in-law Artist Thampuran's grand niece (my peramma's daughter Lalita). Kaduvinal Kuttiyamma Kunjamma and LK's mother were probably sisters, but I have to confirm from my perappan Radhakrishnan Unnithan (I'd asked him to get me their family details). Interestingly, actress Mallika's father, Kainikkara Madhavan Pillai, is related to my mother's Tharavad 'Mullasseril' of Mannar. Mallika's first husband was Jagathi Sreekumar.

Chempollil's history was brought out in book form by the late Sri KS Unnithan. His father's father was Chempolil Govindan Unnithan. There records mention one of their forefathers visiting 'Sri Mulavasam' (a buddhist center of learning that used to exist on the seashore between Trikunnapuzha and Ambalapuzha, and was swallowed by the sea around the 9th or 10th century AD) and replicating their festival rituals (what we now see as the famous 'Chettikulangara Kettukazhcha'). So it mentions some things about the area in general too.

The Ay kings had marital relations with the 'Chempakasseri' Illam at 'Kudamaloor' near Kottayam. Custom had it that after seven successive generations of marriage with Brahmins, the 8th successive descendant would become a Brahmin. That is how one of the Ay sakhas became Brahmin (The Ambalapuzha Rajas). The Ay-Vels themselves were not Kshatriyas. They were 'Yadavas'(or 'Vrishnis). Considering their vocation, It is probable that they were descended from the original 'Edasseri Nairs' or 'Idaya-seri' Nairs, which goes again to prove that the Nairs were the original inhabitants of Kerala much before the Kshatriyas or Brahmins.

My grandmother is still alive and well. I did ask ask my cousin about the 'kitchen' thing and he said it wasn't true.

I haven't been to the Revenue dept archives, but copies of the books are in various libraries. You'll need a library membership for those.

Another thing that might interest you. Just remembered now. The title 'Kunjamma' for ladies was not limited to the womenfolk of 'Unnithans'. "Kunjamma' is also used by ladies of 'Valiathan' familes (the eldest female is 'Valiyamma', the others are 'Kunjamma'. However the 'Thottathil' sakha of the Valiathans (at Pandalam) still use only 'Amma'e.g, Artist VS valiathan's mother was Thottathil Madhavi Amma and Dr MS Valiathan's mother was Janaki Amma. 'Kunjamma' is also used by the Paliath Achan family for their womenfolk. Some 'Panicker' families (those with the actual surname of 'Panicker', not just as a 'Sthanam') also use 'Kunjamma'.

I removed some of my earlier 'talks' from your user page because it was causing too much congestion there. Really this 'talk page' business is not the best way to 'talk' on such matters.

regards

Hari

[edit] Re:Hey

You can remove the redirect and update the article. Check the article history to see if you can restore it to before the redirect. That is, assuming it was an article in its own right before it was redirected. I'll take a look at it too if you don't mind. The Pushpaka Brahmin article might eventually need to be merged into the Brahmin article. --vi5in[talk] 17:27, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Oh, well, I am not really knowledgeable about that! Do what you think is best; you know more about the subject than I do :) --vi5in[talk] 16:23, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hello

Pls take a look on Nadar caste. The artcile claims they are kshatriyars. I have been discussing this for long in the forum.. pleae have a look at article and also compare with the my edits. like to have ur insights.... Also pls look at the discussion page of pillai.

08:00, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] on Gundert's translation of the Keralolpathi

Keralolpathiyum Mattum is published by DC books ( its in Malayalam) and I do have a copy of this book. Most probably you can find it in any DC books book stall. If you are interested in ketrala history, Ill suggest you to read, Malabar Manuel By William Logan (published by Mathrubhumi publications, if my memmory is correct), Kerala Jathi Vyavasthithiyum Kerala Charithravum, by P.K.Balakrishna (DC BOOKS) and if you have access to http://www.jstor.org/ , you can find a vast amount of articles on Kerala history.

By the way, a comment on the discussion on Nambiars, what so ever this guy seems to be confused. He is talking about certain group of namboothiri's (nambiathiri's or nambidi’s, I cant recall) who are assigned to practice martial arts contrary to normal nambothiri’s, and they are not related to Nambiars. Nambiar is just a subcaste (prominent in northern Kerala). Most of the Nambiar tharavads belongs to Kiriathil nair category.

Cheers, crayoz Crayoz 16:43, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] HI

You are welcome. I think you can find english version of Malabar manuel. I've seen it, but im not sure if its in print now. I checked the nambiar link again, now its in good shape, I remebr seeing it with all kind of rediculas sensless crap. Somebody edieted it and now its ok. cheers,

[edit] Paliath Achan

Hi! Thanks for the info. Yes, I read something to the same effect; the Raja became pretty much, a ceremonial head for some period of time. --vi5in[talk] 16:58, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I think he is the last person who held the title. I will add that information to the picture. --vi5in[talk] 03:16, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sethu Lakshmi Bayi

Thanks for adding the quote from Lord Mountbatten to the Sethu Lakshmi Bayi article. Do you have a source for the quotation? As the official policy at Wikipedia:Verifiability states: "Editors adding or restoring material that has been challenged or is likely to be challenged, or quotations, must provide a reliable published source, or the material may be removed." --Bejnar 21:01, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

The quote is found in Freedom at Midnight,a book that deals with the Indian independance movement's last moments etc. I dont remember the page etc as of now. Besides ive read it in a newpaper article as well. Manu
Unfortunately, we do not have a copy of Freedom at Midnight at our library here. Could you take the time to find the page reference? Collins, Larry and Lapierre, Dominique (1975) Freedom at midnight Simon and Schuster, New York, p. ?, ISBN 0-671-22088-8 or the reprint Collins, Larry and Lapierre, Dominique (1997) Freedom at midnight Vikas, New Delhi, p. ?. ISBN 81-259-0480-8 --Bejnar 16:03, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] your bad behaviour at nayar

Hello, the changes i made to nayar entry was all postive. then why did you simply remove my changes at one go? namboodhiri is more in use than namboothiri. You dont know that? i am fairly new to wikeypiedia. but I edit in consultation with a more experienced person. he advises me that in such situatins there must be an "see there" page. instead of doing the proper things, you simply remove all my positive changes? what sort of conduct is this? do you want me to make a formal complaint against operators of the site? i want to hear your explanation. thank you. tranquilmind Tranquilmind 05:58, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] removal of templates

You add false reference and remove templates. You have also violate three revert rule and edit warred. take care in the future.

  • You also used IP sock to remove templates. [1] This is not acceptable. Stop or you will be blocked.

[edit] Unnithan

Do the references actually contain the information in the article? Rich Farmbrough, 12:52 20 July 2007 (GMT). (P.S. Sign comments on talk pages with ~~~~)

Cool, suggest you add page/chapter references. See also Wikipedia:Citing sources. If you still have problems with the anon IP, let me know. Rich Farmbrough, 15:29 20 July 2007 (GMT).
In theory unreferenced material can be removed, in practice it is better to get a ref, and to leave material that is uncontentious for this to happen. There is a massive project to provide references throughout WP. Rich Farmbrough, 17:11 20 July 2007 (GMT).
According to my sources p 368 is in the section "Fall of Yusuf Khan"? Rich Farmbrough, 08:51 21 July 2007 (GMT).
I did wonder if there were two such works. Rich Farmbrough, 19:27 22 July 2007 (GMT).

[edit] Malayala Kshatriya

Hello Manu. According to Nambuthri definition there are no such things as "Malayala Kshatriya". It is important to note that the first Upanayanam to be performed by a Varma was in 1500s, and that was done by Brahmanar from outside Kerala because the Nambuthris thought of Varmas, Nairs and other Savarnar alike as Sudra. If there is such a thing as Malayala Kshatriya, this would include Nairs as well (the Varmas come under the general umbrella of Nair), and all that is different between Nair and Varma is that Varmas have begun wearing the Poonul since 1500s, all other traditions and customs are the same. In fact there are Varma communities that do not have the Poonul, so does that mean they are not Kshatriya? "Samanta Kshatriyas" do not have the Poonul, and they too are referred to as Shudra by Nambuthris. The Manusmriti does not say that Upanayanam is the defining factor for Kshatriya status, only that it is one of the rituals for a "twice-born". Kshatriyan 02:26, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

The point that I tried to make is that Varmas and rulers were basically high class Nairs. Their customs and traditions are exactly the same as Nairs, only that the men have taken up Upanayanam (even this isn't widespread, as not all the Varmas have a Poonul). So it's not correct to say that Nairs were Sudras and the Varmas were Kshatriya, since both were considered as Sudra by the Nambuthris, although in actual fact both were Kshatriya by their dharma. Kshatriyan 01:51, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
I will keep a watch on the Kiriyathil Nair page. All Varmas did not have a poonul. The first ruler to undergo Upanayanam was Kolathiri Udayavarman from the Malabar in 1617 AD (see Nair talk page) and this was conducted by Tulu Brahmins, since the Nambuthris didn't recognise the Varmas as Kshatriyas. However, later they became accepted, since the Hiranyagarba had been performed according to Vedic rites. This should be mentioned in the article, as it shows that Malayala Kshatriyas were originally considered Sudra but then elevated, and this has occurred in relatively recent times (unlike the Rajputs who have been Kshatriyas since ancient times). Although Hindu law specifies rulers as being Kshatriyas, it didn't seem to apply to Kerala or much of South India (otherwise the major Janmimar and Naduvazhi Nayars would have been given Kshatriya status officially), just as untouchability was carefully followed in Kerala, although the scriptures make no specifications of the sort; and that Sambandham was practiced by previously unmarried Nambuthri men who were supposed to have wedded a Brahmin before marrying a Kshatriya according to the Manusmriti. Also Varmas were just as indigenous to Kerala as were the Nairs (both groups having been the rulers and warriors during the time of Cheras). The reason why Nambuthris called Nairs and Varmas "Sudra" was not so much a matter of race (Aryan Invasion Theory was not known in those days) but a matter of replacing them as a dominant community (just as it had occurred initially with the Marathas, Jats, Rajputs, etc.) as the Nairs were reluctant to give up their power to the Nambuthris (Keralolpathi mentions a confrontation).Kshatriyan 11:02, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] UNNITHAN

we should be better going by the references instead of what we personaly research.. the travancore manual says that unnithans were children of the non ruling rajas so, we should try to keep it like that,,unless there is some other written reference.... i appreciate your contribs, 'cos i see that u have been working on many topics..i am new, but u also can't just undo something i took time & compiled, from references... we can discuss points which are not in references... & u should not be taking things to personal ego...

[edit] Garbage on the Nair Talk page

I'm trying to get that crap out of there, but Dayaanjali keeps reverting me. That page is just for the article, not all the caste-war BS. --vi5in[talk] 15:29, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Please go through the article published in 1926

[edit] Samanta

Samanta Kshatriya article has them as being "lower Kshatriyas" although they did not wear a Poonool and were identical to the Nairs in customs and practices. I doubt whether Upanayanam was absolutely necessary to be considered Kshatriya, since there are several Samskaras required for dvijas that were not always fulfilled (also Jats, Marathas did not do Upanayanam). Also was the Nair caste as a whole labelled as Sudra, or from the Illathu Nair downwards? I had made a List of Nairs article, but it has been deleted, so names must now go on the Nair page.Kshatriyan 12:14, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

According to scriptures, you are correct, however Rajputs, Jats and Marathas (also Soods, Bhatias, Khambojas, Yadavs) are still considered "Kshatriya". Samantas were not therefore "pure" Kshatriyas and so in the Samanta Kshatriya page it should include the Malayala Kshatriyas which you talk about, since at the moment the Samanta Kshatriyas have been confused with Samantanmar (who were upperclass Nairs). In terms of untouchability, any caste had been polluted by the touch of another, whether it was Brahmin and the Raja, or Nair and Ezhava, however it is important to note that in North India untouchability only applied to Dalits who were considered avarna (the Sudras were not untouchable). It is just another example of how narrow minded and puritan Kerala society was. You haven't answered my question regarding whether all Nairs were Sudra (I don't think this was possible, since there was a continuous link from Nair to Samanta to Samanta Kshatriya) Kshatriyan 09:58, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
Yes, and I don't think Jats, Marathas and Nairs are any different in that matter! From my understanding, the Nairs which "served" were the Illathu Nairs who served as warriors and also retainers for Naduvazhi Nairs and Nambuthri estates. Kiriyath Nairs were self sufficient, and didn't serve anyone except for the Rajah (in the past Varmas could have power struggles with the Kiriyath Nairs), they even thought themselves higher than Nambuthris. To my knowledge, they were not considered Sudra (so they were placed with the Samantas), however strictly speaking the Nambuthris would have considered all castes (Samanta Kshatriya included) as Sudra. Kshatriyan 11:44, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Hello Manu. You seem to know much about the history of Kerala. After reading the articles Ezhava, Panicker, I noticed that Panicker is a title for both Nairs and Ezhavas. The articles say that Ezhavas were warriors (such as Cheerapanchira Kalari) and had been scholars in Ayurveda, Sanskrit, etc. Are Ezhava Panickers and Nair Panickers the same? I had heard that Ezhavas were largely business people and I can understand how some families became aristocratic. I am curious as to whether the Nambuthri Brahmins (who claimed land as being theirs) were opposed to Ezhavas learning Sanskrit, Vedic sciences, etc? Were these aristocratic Ezhavas already allowed to enter temples (before the Temple Entry Act, since it would make sense that if they learnt Sanskrit they would be actively involved in religious/cultural processes)? Just thought you might be able to answer these questions. Kshatriyan 00:30, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] List of Nairs

I have made the pages List of Nairs, List of Ezhavas, List of Namboothiris similar to List of Rajputs, List of Iyers, etc. Please feel free to add names to the list. I have also added some pictures to the Nair article relating to the history of Nairs, and if you have some suitable pictures, it would be much appreciated if it could be used to make the article better. Thanks!Malayaliyan 07:38, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Notability of Uthradom Thirunal

A tag has been placed on Uthradom Thirunal requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done because the article appears to be about a person, group of people, band, club, company, or web content, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is notable: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, articles that do not indicate the subject's importance or significance may be deleted at any time. Please see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as notable. If this is the first page that you have created, then you should read the guide to writing your first article.

If you think that you can assert the notability of the subject, you may contest the deletion by adding {{hangon}} to the top of the page (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag), coupled with adding a note on the article's talk page explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the article meets the criterion it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the article that would confirm the subject's notability under Wikipedia guidelines.

For guidelines on specific types of articles, you may want to check out our criteria for biographies, for web sites, for bands, or for companies. Feel free to leave a note on my talk page if you have any questions about this. Mhking (talk) 03:40, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism

Hi Manu - There's a guide to how to deal with vandalism at Wikipedia:Vandalism. Essentially the first step is to try to discuss things (e.g. is it really vandalism or just a crudely expressed disagreement?); then there is a process of issuing warnings of increasing severity. Since the user in question is registered (unlike the previous vandalism that seemed to come from various unregistered IPs), it ought to be possible to get this sorted out. Blocking the user is an ultimate recourse, but you'll need to go through the earlier steps first. Good luck. Colonies Chris (talk) 09:41, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Your recent edits

Hi there. In case you didn't know, when you add content to talk pages and Wikipedia pages that have open discussion, you should sign your posts by typing four tildes ( ~~~~ ) at the end of your comment. On many keyboards, the tilde is entered by holding the Shift key, and pressing the key with the tilde pictured. You may also click on the signature button Image:Signature_icon.png located above the edit window. This will automatically insert a signature with your name and the time you posted the comment. This information is useful because other editors will be able to tell who said what, and when. Thank you! --SineBot (talk) 12:41, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Raja Nair origins

As you can see the Kolathiris were Samanthas were underwent Upanayanam for the first time in the 17th century with the help of Tulu Brahmins (since Nambudiris refused to conduct the ceremony). The Zamorin Rajas were basically Nair chiefs known as Eradis who expanded their Desham by annexing nearby lands and building a Kingdom (they were not referred to as Varma I don't think). The Travancore Rajahs have Varma as a title, dating back probably to Chera times, but as stated in the Nair article it seems they had Nair origins (the statement has a valid reference so please do not delete it). It seems that there are no pure "Kshatriyas" in Kerala, even the Nambudiris failed to recognise the Travancore Rajahs nephew as a Kshatriya until the Hiranyagarba rebirth ceremony was performed. The "ruling class" as it were, was made up of certain levels, with the Varma at the top of the scale, followed by the Samanthas and then the Kiriyath Nairs, each of these groups having a huge influence on the ruling of the Kingdom (Kiriyath Nairs such as Ettuveetil Pillamar were known as "Crownless Kings" due to their strength). Underlying the ruling caste however it seems was a Nair origin (references indicate).Jammfly (talk) 08:11, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Malayala Kshatriya

I was wondering if the article should be renamed to "Samantha Kshatriya" which is what the Rajas were. In traditional texts they are referred to as this, and although many started to wear the Poonul, their successors had to undergo Hiranyagarba, which "true" Kshatriyas were not required to perform.Jammedfly (talk) 05:41, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

It may be confusing, but if explained properly it can be understood. Malayala Kshatriya implies they were the proper Kshatriyas, whereas Samantha Kshatriya shows their status as being "Kshatriya in name only". Also Wikipedia is the first time that I have heard about "Malayala Kshatriya", are there citations for its use elsewhere? I think the orthodox name should be used. Also could you please weigh in on the debate about whether to mass delete several articles related to the Nair caste? ThankyouJammedfly (talk) 21:15, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Your recent edits

Hi there. In case you didn't know, when you add content to talk pages and Wikipedia pages that have open discussion, you should sign your posts by typing four tildes ( ~~~~ ) at the end of your comment. On many keyboards, the tilde is entered by holding the Shift key, and pressing the key with the tilde pictured. You may also click on the signature button Image:Signature_icon.png located above the edit window. This will automatically insert a signature with your name and the time you posted the comment. This information is useful because other editors will be able to tell who said what, and when. Thank you! --SineBot (talk) 05:04, 8 February 2008 (UTC)