Talk:Mansfield Park

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[edit] Popularity?

Under the heading critical appraisal we have this: "Mansfield Park is one of Austen's least popular works". One can make a distinction between quality and popular so I am not upset that Mansfield Park is being dissed here, although I should point out that Kingsley Amis, in his essay Whatever Became of Jane Austen, first page, says "There is something to be said for the view, held by rational critics as well as by mere going-through-the-motions appreciators, that Mansfield Park is the best of Jane Austen's works."

Anyway, not having been an English major, I am not up on what is. I suppose that it is true that is is her least popular work but could we have a citation?

My copy is in storage right now, but in its introduction, the writer called it the least popular of Austen's novels (saying its preachy and prudish tone put readers off). If I can find out which version I had and who wrote that line, I'll put it in the article. | MrDarcy talk 14:26, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

It is one of the least popular - but I think the statement needs to be qualified, as it is also one of the most challenging novels that has received a large amount of critical interest. Perhaps it would be good to mention that people have found it difficult to reconcile the rather more rebellious, mocking and glittering independence of heroines such as Elizabeth Bennet with the stoical, Christian independence of Fanny?

I think "one of the least popular" also sounds strange because there are only six altogether. Wouldn't something like "perhaps the least popular" be better, with a reference?ProfPirate 19:01, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Will and Ariel Durant seem to like Mansfield Park better than Pride and Prejudice in their discussion of Austen in The Story of Civilization - they find the plot of Pride and Prejudice improbable (although they make it rather more improbable than it actually is through their rather typical errors of fact in describing the plot), and feel that Mansfield Park is a better plotted and more believable work. Is this an older critical view which has, in more recent years, been rejected? Or is this just a Durant idiosyncrasy? (The Age of Napoleon, the volume from which it comes, was published in 1973, but the Durants' taste was probably pretty firmly set by the 1920s or so - they were really old by the 1970s). At any rate, if there was an older critical view that Mansfield Park was Austen's best work - as the Amis quote seems also to suggest - it might be worth a quote. john k 08:16, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fanny Price

Jane Austen's own mother thought Fanny "insipid," and many other readers have found her priggish and unlikeable. (See here for the opinion of Jane Austen's mother. See here for a description of the many criticisms of Fanny Price—such as "insignificant", "moralizing prig", "feeble", "dull", or "nebbish"—on the AUSTEN-L mailing list, ironically presented by a defender of the character.)

I'm a bit surprised how enthusiastically some users here defend their negative view of Fanny Price. But anyway, the thing is that the passage about Jane Austen's mother does not belong here.

To make this clear: It's absolutely right that many modern readers feel uncomfortable with Fanny Price. But I see no point in mentioning this widespread disapproval twice. The sentence above already states:

Many modern readers find Fanny's timidity and disapproval of the theatricals difficult to sympathise with, and the idea (made explicit in the final chapter) that she is a better person for the relative privations of her childhood rather unpleasant.

Don't forget that this is an encyclopaedic article, NOT a Fanny-Price-hatesite!

And honestly, what's the deal with mentioning what Jane Austen's mother thought about this matter? If the intention was to point out the influence the mother might have had on Jane Austen's works it would all be fine and suitable. But her personal point of view has no relevance whatsoever. No one would give a damn what Charles Dickens' great uncle might have thought about Oliver Twist. The same goes for Jane Austen's mother. Besides, the listing of invectives used against Fanny Price in the citations is completely unnecessary.--Sokrat3000 11:18, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

The Fanny wars continue! Anyway, the article already contains a number of very favorable comments about Fanny:
"Despite often being unhappy during her childhood, Fanny grows up with a strong sense of propriety and virtue."
"However, her [Fanny's] genuine gentleness and kindness cause this plan to backfire."
"But Fanny holds her ground, knowing that she has acted correctly."
"She [Fanny] shows courage and grows in self-esteem during the latter part of the story."
Sokrat3000 rightly says that the article should not be a Fanny hatefest. But neither should it be a Fanny lovefest. The article should present a balanced view of Fanny Price. The fact that Jane Austen's own mother disliked the character is relevant to the discussion because it was the view of somebody extremely close to the novelist, who wasn't afraid to tell her daughter face-to-face about her unfavorable opinion of Fanny Price. I was asked to supply a citation for this quote, and I did. I also supplied a citation which discusses how controversial Fanny Price is...and this controversy seems to have spilled over into Wikipedia.
I have partially reverted. I left out the list of unflattering descriptions of the character, though there are, as we have seen, many very flattering comments about Fanny interspersed throughout the article. I have no intention of refighting the Fanny wars that plagued AUSTEN-L, but the article should be roughly balanced with both favorable and unfavorable views of this character. I believe the article as it stands is now reasonably NPOV on this most controversial aspect of the novel. Casey Abell 12:59, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Casey Abell on this one. This is precisely the place for critical and popular opinions of the novel, its plot, and its characters. Mentioning the controversy over the character once in the intro and again in the section on the book's reception is appropriate. I think the current version - now properly sourced - is NPOV. | Mr. Darcy talk 13:45, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
I never intented to start a "Fanny war". I haven't even noticed that there was one going on. I simply had some problems with the mention of Jane Austen's mum and I thought that the passage partly repeated the sentence above. But if the balance of positive and negative statements about the character is so important to you I have no objections to this being mentioned twice.
Of course, I could also start to be a quibbler and point out that all the quoted "pro-Fanny"-statements are from the section Plot. Well, it's just logical to present the plot from the author's point of view. And it was Jane Austen who considered Fanny Price to be a person of great virtue.
By the way, two of the quoted sentences don't even contradict your critical view of the character. If you consider Fanny to be insipid and priggish it does not prevent her from being gentle and growing in self-esteem.
The appraisal of the character, however, belongs to the section Critical appraisal. I think there is even a slight prevalence of negative appraisal there, but never mind.
So I have no objections against the second part of your sentence (though I don't agree with it) but the part about the mother still sounds inappropriate to me. Your answer left me wondering if you really considered Jane Austen's mother to be relevant or if, in fact, your intention was merely an act of counterbalance. Jane Austen had six brothers, one sister and many friends and each one must have had his own perception of her novel. But is this really important concerning the novel? I don't think so as I don't see any influence of her readers' reactions that might have caused her to alter her style of writing in her last novel. I remember having once read that Jane Austen stated that she liked Mansfield Park best of all her novels.--Sokrat3000 12:03, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
The comment from Jane Austen's mother demonstrates how controversial Fanny Price was from the beginning, and the disagreement about her has only grown over time. Lionel Trilling was intentionally exaggerating when he said (in the essay mentioned at the very end of the article) that nobody likes Fanny Price, but the cited website shows how many readers have found her, well, less than appealing. I'm pretty neutral on the issue. As you say, Fanny can be considered insipid, priggish, gentle and growing in self-esteem all at once. The article now offers a reasonable balance of opinion on the character.
By the way, Trilling's exact comment was: "Nobody, I believe, has ever found it possible to like the heroine of Mansfield Park." Again, that's an obvious and conscious overstatement. But he went on to defend Fanny Price and the novel in general. The essay is worth reading, though detractors of the novel and its heroine will probably not be convinced by Trilling's sometimes convoluted defense, especially after he concedes so much to those detractors in the beginning of the essay. Casey Abell 12:28, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Slavery reference in Mansfield Park

I have concerns about the following sentence from the article:

"Claire Tomalin, following literary critic Brian Southam, points out that Fanny, usually so timid, questions her uncle vigorously about the slave trade and receives no answer, suggesting that her vision of the trade's immorality is clearer than his."

Tomalin does not use the word "vigorously." Tomalin's exact wording is as follows:

"Brian Southam has suggested that her question [Tomalin quotes Fanny's question to her uncle] is met with dead silence because Sir Thomas could not answer her to his own satisfaction, being necessarily a supporter of the slave trade, and that by raising the question at all, Fanny bravely makes her own abolitionist sympathies clear" (Jane Austen: A Life, p. 233).


Furthermore, Austen's text does not support this reading. The exact quote is as follows:


"But I do talk to him more than I used. I am sure I do. Did not you hear me ask him about the slave–trade last night?"

"I did — and was in hopes the question would be followed up by others. It would have pleased your uncle to be inquired of farther."

"And I longed to do it — but there was such a dead silence! And while my cousins were sitting by without speaking a word, or seeming at all interested in the subject, I did not like — I thought it would appear as if I wanted to set myself off at their expense, by shewing a curiosity and pleasure in his information which he must wish his own daughters to feel" (Mansfield Park, chapter 21).


Austen does not portray Fanny as "question[ing] her uncle VIGOROUSLY." This wording gives an inacurate portrayal of what transpires in that scene, so I have deleted the word "vigorously" from the article.


Thank you BellyOption 00:50, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

I'd have to agree with you-- I did not remember it being very vigorous at all and your quote above backs that up. It's only in that awful adaptation that they did in the 90s that it plays such a prominent role. plange 01:40, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
I agree. Vigourous criticism and Fanny Price hardly belong together in the same sentence, particularly bearing in mind the terror with which she regards Sir Thomas. --131.111.8.99 11:37, 19 July 2006 (UTC)


Austen’s text does not support the notion of Sir Thomas being implicated in the slave trade at all. In fact, it implies just the opposite. Why, if Sir Thomas were involved in the slave trade and unwilling to talk about it, would Edmund assert that Sir Thomas would have welcomed being questioned on the issue further? Similarly, why would Sir Thomas wish his daughters to show more curiosity about the matter, if he were in fact try to dodge the subject altogether? The entire exchange between Fanny and Edmund would make no sense if in fact her uncle were on the defensive about slavery.

From the exchange, it is clear what occurred: Fanny asked her uncle about the slave trade. He answered her and would have welcomed a follow-up question. But Fanny’s cousins Maria and Julia (and maybe Tom) were profoundly uninterested (and still brooding over the loss of Lovers Vows), thus the “dead silence.” And as Fanny explains, she didn’t want to put herself forward by seeming to be more interested in their father’s opinions than her cousins themselves were. Thaale 21:27, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Not NPOV

This article isn't neutral at all.

[edit] Southam and Moody

I have a problem with this part, as it seems clear that Southam's implication is simply wrong - it takes part of the book out of context and creates a false context for it which simply cannot be supported from the text. Moody is clearly right that we can't tell anything from this passage about anyone's view of the slave trade. Sir Thomas himself may very well oppose the (Transatlantic) slave trade even as he makes his wealth from slave-farmed plantations in Antigua. Or he may view the (then recent) abolition of the slave trade as a terrible business which might ruin him (the fact that his business prospects have recently diminished, and forced him to go off to Antigua for two years, or whatever it was, would suggest at least the possibility that abolition has hurt him financially). At any rate, I think Said's point is significant enough to stay, but I think the whole discussion of Fanny's question about the slave trade should be gotten rid of. Mentioning it, when any fair reading of the text pretty clearly shows that Southam is simply wrong, is to give a false impression, even if we then quote Moody to the effect that Southam is wrong. If it is to stay, would it not be preferable to get a quote from Southam himself, rather than quoting him second hand? john k 08:10, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Marriage between cousins

This plot is built around an attraction between first cousins, resulting in marriage. This is currently often discouraged or prohibited. It would help modern readers understand the plot, to know what the situation was then, in England, for various classes. And how this book was received then, in this regard. -69.87.200.152 (talk) 03:37, 4 February 2008 (UTC)