Talk:Maniraptoriformes

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[edit] Don't like Harpymimas?

J.Spencer wrote: "liked except 1 line about Harpy, something like Ornitholestes or Coelurus is probably closer in form to the first maniraptoriforms than a relatively specialized animal." I based the notion of Harpymimas being closest to the ancestral Maniraptoformes on the Harpymimus-Deinocheirus split being 3 morphological changes away from the ancestral Maniroptoriformes (which is very close) as opposed to 7 morphological changes to the Ornitholestes-Maniraptora split and to the Pelicanimimus split, according to Senter (2007). I'm aware that that's an unreliable guide, in part because there's no information about how far Harpymimus is from the Harpymimus-Deinocheirus split, and in part because I haven't looked up other research articles. Why do you say that Harpymimus is relatively specialized? Mollwollfumble (talk) 05:26, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Cladograms don't really represent number of morphological changes, just order of morphological changes. There could have been two or a thousand between the basal maniraptoran and Harpymimus. From what we know, Ornitholestes is more plesiomorphic--which means more primitive, that is less changed from the ancestral condition. Dinoguy2 (talk) 12:49, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

That's about right. Judging from the basal members of maniraptoriform groups, the first maniraptoriforms were probably bipedal carnivores with relatively long arms and gracile legs, a meter or two long overall, and lacking the specializations of the various groups. Something like Ornitholestes or Coelurus fit the bill reasonably well, although each is odd in its own way (stocky limbs and small head of Ornitholestes, extreme gracility and hyperelongate legs of Coelurus); perhaps the compsognathids (real group or hypsilophodont-like grade) instead? J. Spencer (talk) 23:45, 11 June 2008 (UTC)