Talk:Manhattan

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Manhattan article.
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Good article Manhattan has been listed as one of the Geography and places good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a reassessment.
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  • Get FA status fixing what was addressed in the FAC

Contents

[edit] Transformer explosion?

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/US/07/18/new.york.explosion/index.html

I guess it looks more dramatic than what it really was: http://www.zelaron.com/gear/manhattan.jpg - Zelaron 00:01, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nation's Third-largest Central Business District?

Out of curiosity, who ranks as the 1st and 2nd?

[edit] Very Beginning of Article

Someone is being either hateful or just immature. The very beginning of the article starts with a Pulitzer-worthy sentence: "Omg, like manhattan is teh biggest and ^rettiest city in the world ^^"

Wow. I have been trying to wipe the ignorance off of the page but my computer is giving me issues. If someone could fix that I would really appreciate it.

Thanks a bunch.

~Mark

[edit] Neighborhood list

Added list of neighborhoods. I propose we put neighborhoods under the city as in city/neighborhood, as some of these won't merit big entries and others (e.g., soho, financial district) are at least somewhat ambiguous with other cities. -User:K.lee

Subpages are deprecated. We'd need to have titles like "Soho (New York)" or "Inwood (Manhattan)". )"Inwood (New York City)" would do, but there's at least one other Inwood in the state, in Nassau County--I've stopped telling people I live in Inwood because then I have to explain that no, I don't live on the Island.)
I'm inclined to delink the neighborhoods for now, and just write short descriptions under the neighborhood headers. Any that get long or complicated can be pulled out. Vicki Rosenzweig
And while I'm on the subject, does anyone not a real estate developer actually talk about "Nolita"?Vicki Rosenzweig
Ha. Evidently the Times does (did you see the Magazine this past week?). As you can see from my history I haven't done much wikipedia-ing. This neighborhood-izing edit was part of my being bold. The slash business was a bad idea, but I do think disambiguation will pay off in the long run. I am fixing the links to use something more readable like the Soho, London, England entry for now. -k.lee

Can we have defs for the meanings of "uptown" and "downtown", please?

  • Done. -- Cjmnyc 04:03, 31 Aug 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Difficult to understand the beginning sentences

"New York County and the Borough of Manhattan are coextensive. As a part of New York City, New York County contains no other political subdivisions."

I have never been to New York, but I am doing my reading and hoping to go soon.

I find the sentences in quotes above to be unintelligible. What does "coextensive" mean? Surely there is a reasonable word or phrase that can be used in place of "coextensive".

Does the second sentence mean that the boundary of NY City is the same as the boundry of NY County? If not, what does it mean?

Thanks, Don Bailey Denver March 14, 2004

  • "New York County" and the "Borough of Manhattan" are separate political entities with identical borders. If that's any clearer<G>. Manhattan is only one part of New York City. Manhattan is coterminous/coextensive with New York County, not New York City. The "County" is smaller than the "City", admittedly rather a confusing thing! As a visitor, you'll never need the terms "New York County" or "Borough of Manhattan", you'll just refer to it as "Manhattan". -- Nunh-huh 05:15, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)
    • "Manhattan" in common usage refers to the island of Manhattan, not to the political boundaries, so I think this is where the confusion comes in. In books, movies, magazine articles and everyday speech, when one hears Manhattan, one is almost always hearing a reference to the island with that name. When the political entity is referenced, it is called "the borough of Manhattan", whose boundaries are, as you say, identical with the boundaries of New York County. This includes Marble Hill, Roosevelt Island and other islands. (I'm quite sure that many locals don't even know this -- I've known residents of Manhattan Island who don't even know the name of the county in which they reside.)
    • People in the "outer boroughs" very often refer to the island of Manhattan as "The City", adding further to the confusion. Manhattan Island once was, indeed, the entirety of the City of New York. Consolidation of what is today the City of New York began in 1898 and even then the political boundaries were different than they are today.
    • The section of City law that defines the borough of Manhattan is below:
    • § 2-202 Division into boroughs and boundaries thereof. The city of New
 York   is   hereby   divided   into  five  boroughs  to  be  designated,
 respectively: Manhattan, The Bronx, Brooklyn, Queens and Staten Island.
   1.  The borough of Manhattan shall consist of the territory  known  as
 New York county which shall contain all that part of the city and state,
 including  that  portion  of  land  commonly  known  as  Marble Hill and
 included within the county of New York and borough of Manhattan for  all
 purposes  pursuant  to  chapter  nine hundred thirty-nine of the laws of
 nineteen hundred eighty-four and further including  the  islands  called
 Manhattan  Island,  Governor's  Island,  Bedloe's  Island, Ellis Island,
 Franklin D.  Roosevelt  Island,  Randall's  Island  and  Oyster  Island,
 bounded  by  the  following  described  line: Beginning at the northerly
 United States bulkhead line of the Harlem river at the junction  of  the
 Hudson and Harlem rivers; thence along the northerly and easterly United
 States  bulkhead  lines of the Harlem river to the low-water mark on the
 westerly bank of the Spuyten Duyvil creek as it  existed  prior  to  its
 being  filled  in;  thence  along  said low-water mark of Spuyten Duyvil
 creek to the easterly United States bulkhead line of the  Harlem  river;
 thence  southerly  along the easterly United States bulkhead line of the
 Harlem river to a point where said United States bulkhead  line  of  the
 Harlem river intersects the northerly United States bulkhead line of the
 Bronx  kills;  thence  along  the  northerly  line  of the United States
 bulkhead line of the Bronx kills to the intersection  of  the  northerly
 United  States  bulkhead  line of the East river; thence across the East
 river to the low-water mark on the  shore  of  Long  Island,  so  as  to
 include  Randall's  Island and Ward's Island; thence along the low-water
 mark on the shore of Long Island to the  southerly  side  of  Red  Hook;
 thence  across  the  Upper  bay  to  the westerly boundary of the state;
 thence northerly along such westerly boundary of the state  to  a  point
 where  a  perpendicular  drawn  from  the  point  or  place of beginning
 intersects such westerly boundary of the state;  thence  easterly  along
 such perpendicular to the point or place of beginning; including all the
 islands or parts thereof situated within the aforedescribed bounds.

(ADC - New York City Administrative Code, Title 2, "Boundaries of the City" http://public.leginfo.state.ny.us/menugetf.cgi?COMMONQUERY=LAWS )

ScottyFLL 16:49, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Demographics

I've heard that although Manhattan has 1M people residential, it has 30M employees working there. Does anyone have the facts to back that up, as I think it would be nice in the article. Additionally, Brooklyn is described as "it would be the 4th largest city," and I'd like to see a comparison like that--for example comparing Manhattan to whole other states.

[edit] Uptown/downtown

In Manhattan, uptown means north and downtown means south

Not quite. Manhattan has a concept of "north on the grid" (of streets), which is different from due north (or magnetic north, for that matter). As the map shows, Manhattan is a long, narrow island; most streets are laid out parallel or perpendicular to the long sides of the island. Going northeast along a long street is called going "north on the grid" (or just "north", more commonly). Uptown means north on the grid, and downtown means south on the grid. —msh210 22:17, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Technically, Msh210, you're right. But, seriously, who thinks "north" in Manhattan means due north?

[edit] Etymology?

I was under the impression that manhattan's etymology came from a corruption of the word Manahachtanienk--"the island where we became intoxicated", so named by the indians because they got drunk there by white settlers in 1524 or 16(09|04|05)--every site I go to features a different date. Other Internet sites say "high island". Which ones right, or, failing that, shouldn't there be some indication as to the disputed origin? --Combuchan 23:05, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

  • Of course, noone really knows the correct etymology. Those two are the main "theories", although I think there are also a couple of other possible interpretations. I added an alternate etymology of "place of intoxication" into the article, but I imagine the reference to a specific drunken party the name is supposed to refer to is probably even more dubious than an essentially unknowable etymology.--Pharos 00:27, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I read somewhere that this was an interpretation of the Lenape document Walum Olum or of a sequel to the Walum Olum, as noted in some book entitled Red Record, or something like that. — Rickyrab | Talk 30 June 2005 02:41 (UTC)

[edit] Sunrise/Sunset?

The article states "On 28 May and 12 July the sunrise and sunset are aligned with the street gridlines, so that the Sun is visible at the horizon from street level." Does anyone have a source for this? The sunset part seems particularly implausible, as Manhattan streets generally run from northwest(ish) to southeast(ish). I could see where the sunrise might be aligned on (approximately) those dates, which are roughly equidistant (equitemporal?) from the vernal equinox.

Just wondering.... -- uFu

What you're talking about is called the sunrise/sunset azimuth, which is the observed angle (equivalent to compass directions) of the sun at the point at which it crosses the horizon.
Let's check out the facts: first off, alignment of both sunrise/sunset with the grid cannot happen on the same day, so you have to look at each separately. Since Manhattan North is approximately 29 degrees east of north, the sunset azimuth to align with the grid would be approximately 299 degrees (since 270 is due west by convention, with values increasing clockwise). Likewise sunrise azimuth to align with the grid would be approximately 119 degrees (90 degrees is due east).
If you go to the U.S. Navy's site, it will calculate the solar altitude/azimuth tables for you, showing the values at various times throughout the day for any location/date. The sunset azimuth is (by definition) the value of the azimuth (2nd column) when the solar altitude (1st column) is zero while crossing from positive to negative. Conversely the sunrise azimuth is the value when the altitude is zero, crossing from negative to positive.
Using the form they provided, I entered New York, NY and then experimented with various dates. If I enter in May 28 or July 12, I see that the azimuth at sunset is approximately 299 degrees, which means those dates are accurate for the sunset alignment (on July 12 it happens around 19:20, if you want to check for yourself).
You can verify that sunrise/sunset alignments definitely do not occur on the same day. On July 12, for example, the sunrise azimuth is around 59 degrees (in the NE part of the sky).
I did some experimenting and found that for that New York City, I get sunrise azimuth of 119 degrees on/around December 6 and January 12. Those may be off by a day or so. -- Decumanus 19:15, 2005 Jan 19 (UTC)


Okay, that makes a lot of sense. Got my astronomical terminology confused. I meant to say that the two dates given straddle the summer solstice, not the equinox.
So the article is actually wrong. I'll dig around on the USNO site, and fix it.
Thanks for the info. uFu 23:23, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)


error: "On May 28 and July 12 the sunrise and sunset are aligned with the street grid lines, so that the sun is visible at the horizon from street level." This statement is still incorrect. The sun may be visible on the said dates only when setting in the west. The corresponding rising dates in the east would be around the winter solstice (approx. 6-months from the setting dates), since the 'east-west' street grid points to the southeast. The sun does not rise in the southeast during May and July. I don't have the exact dates, but a cursory calculation for the said setting dates seems accurate. I will remove the word sunrise from the article, but it would be nice if someone with the proper calculation software could add the correct rise dates. J. Crocker 18:23, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Okay, it's taken me a year, but here's what I've got. According to this page, the approximate deviation of Manhattan avenues from true north is +28.9. By the foregoing discussion, that gives us a sunrise azimuth of 118.9, and a sunset azimuth of 298.9. Using a little trial-and-error here to determine when the sun's altitude is zero when its azimuth equals these values, I get dates for 2006 of Jan 11 and Dec 2 for the sunrise, and May 25 and Jul 17 for the sunset. That should be accurate to within one minute and 1/10 of a degree. uFu 19:15, 6 January 2006 (UTC)


Article should mention that the island was bought from a neighboring tribe, and not the ones Manhattan belonged to (The Choctaws).

[edit] Photo arrangement

Anyone like the new photo arrangement? I myself was looking at getting the Times Square one full right, but server was acting up, so I gave up. Now I see somebody put all photos at top.--JimWae 19:16, 2005 Mar 30 (UTC)

  • I hope everyone likes what I did - there are no more large gaps in the text caused by the photos, and I made them all the same width for a more professional look. I like the fact that there are a lot of great photos in the article, but this can cause weird layout issues. Paradiso 19:29, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

On my screen (1600x1200), ALL the photos are up top and the first paragraph is squeezed into 8% of the screen width on the left. After that there are no more photos. Maybe try putting them all in one table no wider than the widest jpg --JimWae 20:13, 2005 Mar 30 (UTC)

I fixed it for me - photos were NOT inside table before

"  {| align =right
"  | [[Image:xxx.jpg|right
"  |- 
"  |...

--JimWae 20:24, 2005 Mar 30 (UTC)

I didn't notice the table wasn't done right because on my screen (1440 x 900) all the pics looked fine -- all were along the right side (I think its a browser issue?). Thanks for fixing it, now I know I have to look more carefully when I do tables Paradiso 21:30, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Place of Intoxication?

The first sentence under the history section states...

"The name Manhattan ("hilly island" or "place of intoxication") is..."

Is this really true and not vandalism?

Thanks. -Short Verses 05:56, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

No, it's one possible origin of the name; noone's really sure which is the correct explanation (though one would tend to think "hilly island" is a little more straightforward). See the discussion titled 'Etymology?' above.--Pharos 07:07, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

Feh, Staten Island is hillier. — Rickyrab | Talk 30 June 2005 02:38 (UTC)

[edit] Henry Hudson discovery and 9/11

According to [1], Hudson sailed into NY harbor on sept. 3 and began exploring the hudson river on sept. 12. There's no reason to say that Sept. 11 is a proper exact date for Hudson's "discovery" of New York. Also, Verrazano and Gomez most likely observed the coastline of the island (though perhaps without realizing it was an island) in their earlier visits to New York Harbor. Lastly, it's not clear, from the sources I can find, whether Hudson ever made landfall on Manhattan island itself... need help from someone who knows better. k.lee 17:19, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

  • Actually, that link you cite says explicitly that September 11 was the day Hudson entered Upper New York Bay (which is the first real chance to see Manhattan), and that on that night he anchored off Manhattan Island.--Pharos 17:32, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
    • OK, I "corrected" that bit as best as I could see. Is there any disagreement?--Pharos 17:41, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • He was likely born in England (sailed both for England and Dutch East India Company). England still used the Julian calendar then, need to check on when Dutch transitioned, so getting the exact date will be tricky. Where is the link? --JimWae 17:56, 2005 Jun 24 (UTC)
  • According to http://www.norbyhus.dk/calendar.html, different parts of The Netherlands switched to New Style calendar before & after his journey --JimWae 18:12, 2005 Jun 24 (UTC)
    • I really don't think theres any dispute that he was an Englishman (some people are just confused about him flying under different flags). The link is just the one k.lee gave above, [2]--Pharos 18:10, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Start of urban exodus in Manhattan

Hi,

According to the census bureau, Manhattan population reached a peak in 1910 with 2,762,522 inhabitants, and then decreased to 2,284,103 in 1920 and 1,698,281 in 1960. But the article claims that the white flight started only in the 60s. It seems to be obviousliy wrong, according to the table in the demographic section. It seems obvious that white flight started in the 1910s in Manhattan (mainly to the outer borough), and in the 50s in the outer boroughs. --Revas 23:26, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

  • Good question. The migrations from say, the Lower East Side to Brooklyn and the Bronx were not "white flight". They were simply movements of people who had moved up a notch socioeconomically and were able to leave the crowded slums of Lower Manhattan. There wasn't the racial element to this that was involved in the "white flight" of the 60s.--Pharos 23:57, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
Ok. So maybe we can put something like : After reaching a peak before WWI, Manhattan started to see its population plumeting, mainly because of the stop of immigration from Southern and Eastern Europe, and the move of people who could escape the island slums to the outer boroughs.--Revas 01:11, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Location diagram

The diagram labeled "Manhattan Borough lies between the East River and the Hudson River." doesn't help one unfamiliar with the geography. Usually bright colors identify what is labeled, suggesting that Manhattan is the yellow or blue areas. (SEWilco 20:53, 23 August 2005 (UTC))

[edit] Mannados

Around the 17th century, Manhattan was called Mannados. Does anyone know more details? Please add this to the article. Thanks, Scriberius 07:56, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Manhattan was not called Mannados. The map on this site is almost quite certain a fake one. The Dutch called the island (certified document, known as the Van Schagen letter) already "Manhattans". Mannados has a real latin feel to it, doesn't it?

[edit] Additional map

In case anyone feel like using it, I found a map over Manhattan from circa 1850: . Am currently using it in the Central Park article, so just wanted to let the folks associated with this article know about it... Bjelleklang - talk 22:05, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Paragraphs 6, 7 & 8

Paragraphs 6 ,7 & 8 of the History section seem to ramble on with poor structure and require citations for those quotes. Any discussion of the history of individual liberties in New York City should include discussion of the slave trade (one of the major businesses before the civil war) and be more NPOV, or not be there at all (and be in the entry for New York City history, rather than Manhattan). I'd like to solicit some discussion about these paragraphs and how they can be improved before any substantive edits are made (having already changed "our nation" to "United States").

Robbins 23:48, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] US and UK English

I noticed that this edit [[3]] involved changing honored to honoured. Doesn't that violate the policy on regional uses of English? Manhattan is, after all, an American subject. Sumergocognito 06:40, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

On second thought, I just reverted the anon. His/Her memory of the Glorious Revolution was a bit sketchy besides the improper spelling and what looked like a POV thing. Sumergocognito 06:50, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Need geographic region maps

I think this and the articles about specific regions of Manahattan would hugely benefit from maps. --DanDanRevolution 02:06, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Travel to Staten Island

My edit regardind travel to Staten Island has been removed by an anonymous. I reverted it. The original text before my edit makes impression that there are problems with travel to Staten Island by car, because there is no bridge to Staten Island. I fixed that impression. If somebody beleives that this edit is useless - that is his/her personal POV. --HenryS 23:53, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Densely populated county

Please stop the edit war. If a county is the most densely populated county in the USA, it is the most densely populated county in any part of the USA. Period. --HenryS 22:19, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

The previous user's explanation for his revert was not correct, as New York City is not the same as the New York Metropolitan Area. I reverted for that reason. It was not apparent to me that the user even read or understood the sentence, so I reverted. If someone else wishes to change the wording, they are welcome to, as you have already done. A simple "removed redundancy" in the edit description would have been sufficient (and in contrast to the previous user's edit description, accurate). I see your point and will not attempt to change that sentence.
However, your version constitutes yet a third version of the sentence, not a restoration of the original version. That's fine by me. However, accusations of an edit war do not breed good will with other Wikipedians, nor does your curt tone ("Period." (as if you are THE final authority on the matter)). If you have concluded that this is indeed an "edit war", then since you have provided a third version (and not a restoration), an outside observer would most likely conclude that you are participating in the "edit war". Therefore, I don't think it is in anybody's best interests to make these charges. Thanks. Ufwuct 00:57, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the wording by the previous user, who used the fake Id for unknown reason
  1. Neither you nor me is THE final authority in the case. The Math is. If a county has the highest rate among the US counties, it has the highest rate among counties of any part of the US (including NY State, or NY Metropolitain Area, East Coast or whatever you wish).
  2. There is NOTHING related to the population of New York County. Please make sure, that the term population density is NOT the same as the term population. There is nothing related to New York Meropolitain Area definition as well.
  3. It was technically much easier to edit directly, than to restore the distant edit, while keeping the futher ones. I just did so. I apologize, if that insulted somebody.
  4. Regarding edit wars. I was against that particar war, because the authors, who used words "X is the most Y in the US and in (any part of the US)" fight not against other editors but against The Math, which is the absolute truth in our Universe. So this war must be stopped by the truth and that is beyond any discusion and multiply points of view.
  5. Finaly. It is my strong belief, that we are here to provide the true information in the Wikipedia articles, not to chat around. Again, the Wikipedia is about knowledge not about the editor's Ego. The article is everything, the chat and personal ambitions are nothing. Thank you --HenryS 14:32, 10 July 2006 (UTC)


[edit] On the arrangement

For some unknown reason a user signed with fake Id Ufwuct made a not-just-two-clicks-job to rearrange items in this discussion, according the rule (s)he prefers. The timestamp for this change was 20:42, 9 July 2006. I would not strongly oppose this kind of arrangement. But I have a reasonable questions:
It is the part of the Wiki Bulletin Board common rules to put newer items on the top. See for example [4]

Should we follow other than the common WikiBB arrangement style for this particular discussion? If yes, why?

Thank you --HenryS 15:47, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

To follow up on your inquiry, please see this page. (I'm not clear on the rationale for the posting at the top at the bulletin board, but perhaps they want to make new announcements the most prominent.) Also, on this talk page, new topics are posted at the bottom. I've made the same mistake before (posting at the top of talk pages) and it's not too big of a deal, so don't worry about it. Ufwuct 00:31, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Orientation of 1660 Map

Do I understand correctly that the first map in the History section is set with North to the right? That's confusing...it isn't the "usual" way and isn't the way the other maps on the page are oriented. If there's a reason, that's fine to do it that way, but then the orientation should be mentioned in the caption. DMacks 17:57, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] $ 600-700 American

Allthough these number have a citation, I doubt their validity. Current US$ 600-700 would mean an average inflation of roughly 1 % over the whole period. whereas an average inflation of 2% (still low, but more likely) would result in a modern day equivalent of US$ 10,000+. That number is more in line with what I remember reading most often. --Lokimaros 16:23, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Inflation is a 20th century phenomenon (you might even say post-WWII). Before that, there was no steady inflation (instead, deflation was more common). Pallas44 18:22, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA nomination

Since this is a new listing I'll post a comment rather than passing or failing the article: line citations are pretty thin for an article of this length and it's troubling to see this categorized with articles having invalid ISBN numbers. As a former Manhattanite I'm pleased with the presentation as a whole - I especially looked for the bit about a small part of Manhattan being contiguous with the Bronx. Was hoping for other mentions in the geography section about semiprecious mineral deposits (discovered while creating the subway system) and a mention that Central Park is thoroughly landscaped and therefore not representative of Manhattan's pre-urban terrain. Mostly though, what stopped me from awarding GA was citations. Please continue to improve. Durova 18:49, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree, with more citations this could easily be a FA candidate, so GA seems inappropriate here. TimVickers 03:16, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
I disagree, it should be allowed, like any other article, to go through GA evaluation on its way to FA. Judgesurreal777 03:23, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
It's not a question of disallowing this, I just feel this article is so good that making it GA would be undervaluing it. I'll make this GA if you feel it is appropriate, but you could easily submit this for FA with just a few more citations. TimVickers 14:19, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
If you feel it is GA though, please pass it. I am going to keep working on this article till it gets to FA, but for now I want it to achieve this quality distinction. And when I add more references, then I'll submit it :). Also, if you pass it, you can give some suggestions. Judgesurreal777 16:44, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi there. I'm afraid I forgot about this article and didn't check back onto this talk page. User:Daniel Case now seems to have removed its nomination from the GA listings but not put any feedback here or changed this article's Candidate tag. Perhaps this was a mistake. I've drooped him a note on his talk page. TimVickers 03:05, 22 September 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Failure

No, Tim, it wasn't. I was in the midst of writing this out when I got your message. Then we got into an edit conflict when I tried to save.

Judging from the above discussion and this talk page in general, I'm going to make a lot of people unhappy by doing this, but here goes:

  • Lede: "Manhattan is both the Island of Manhattan and also the Borough of Manhattan ..." Not quite. Starting off with this sort of easily disprovable (and easily correctable) statement is not good. It's even worse when the map right next to it disproves the assertion. It's horrendous when this is in the article text as well.
  • History section: First, it needs to be subdivided some. I realize it's summing up what's over at History of New York City, but you have over ten paragraphs straight there.

    Second is, yes, sourcing. If I read an article with direct quotations from 17th-century sources, I want to be satisfied that whoever put them there can tell me where they came from. If they're in the main History article, they should be here, too. It's not enough to incorporate them by implied reference.

  • Statements that should be sourced but are not: "a phenomenon sometimes referred to as Manhattanhenge (by analogy with Stonehenge)" By who? "... the Upper East Side, one of the wealthiest neighborhoods in the United States"; And again, "Manhattan is one of the highest-income places in the United States with a population greater than 1 million. The Manhattan zipcode 10021, on the Upper East Side, is home to more than 100,000 people and has a per capita income of over $90,000."
  • Culture. "Manhattan has been the scene of many important American cultural movements." Agreed. But then why the segue into the protests after the Triangle Factory fire? First, it's a social or political movement; and second, even if you accept it as a cultural movement it's not the first one that comes to mind (later the Harlem Renaissance is mentioned ... I could also think of the Ash Can School, the Beat Generation and a few other things first).
  • Politics and government: I think you could have a little bit more here. How about the tensions between Manhattan and the outer boroughs due to the former being so disproportionately wealthy and populous and thus getting its way all the time? You know, the way Queens and Staten Island resent Manhattan the way the rest of the country resents New York? An excellent place to mention Lindsay and the snowstorm (it's not in the Lindsay article, which is amazing considering it did him in politically), if nothing else.

    Also, we have a nice picture of ... Robert Morgenthau, the current district attorney. I would expect a picture of the borough president would be a better choice. Is Mr. Stringer that camera-shy?

  • Transportation: The one-sentence grafs at the end of the section need to be better integrated into the rest of the section.
  • "The world-renowned City University of New York (CUNY) ..." A peacock term. Change it or source it.

I can see you have, on the whole, a very fine article here. You should not be discouraged from entertaining visions of a golden star in the upper right hand corner. It has all the pieces; they just need to be better put together.

And this is New York we're talking about. This article has to be able to make it anywhere.

You can easily fix this and renominate at your lesiure. Daniel Case 03:24, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Largest system by mileage?

According to the data in the citation, the NYC subway system has less miles of track than london.--Rotten 14:19, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] $24 myth

In other articles, the $24 claim is called a "legend" or "not particularly meaningful" (e.g., Peter Minuit) both because the natives didn't think they were "selling" anything and because there were no American dollars until the end of the 18th century. This myth needs to be properly explained rather than propagated. If no one with better knowledge of the history steps forward, I guess I'll change it using my rather limited knowledge of the subject (gleaned mainly from sources like Wikipedia and backed up by common sense). Until then, I'll put up a contradict-other tag. Calbaer 17:51, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

They bought it from the natives for things that, if American dollars existed back then, would be worth $24. Samuel 69105 11:42, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Even if the story is true (I'm not sure on that), it is usually told in a way that makes the Indians sound stupid and the Europeans wily ("Manhattan island for only $24?! What a steal!"). But in the early 1600s, $24 was no small amount, first of all. Second, unless I'm mistaken, there were Indian villages on the island for quite some time afterwards. Third, I think it is misleading to describe these kind of early European-Indian treaties/agreements in terms of modern real estate transactions -- the idea of land ownership as we understand it today was novel to the Europeans as well as the Indians. To modern readers, "bought the island for $24" implies full "fee simple" ownership was purchased, and I highly doubt that was the case. My 2 cent opinion is to either tell the story in detail with the proper context and citations, or qualify it by saying it is has become a kind of "American myth", perhaps with some basis in fact, but usually told in a misleading way. Pfly 19:46, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Who Owns Manhattan

Does anyone know who bought Manhattan, whether it was for beads or dollars or Dutch Guilders. I believe it was orignally owned, in the European sense, by the Dutch. It then fell into English hands. There is a legend that the owner was one Robert Edwards, who left it to his descendants who live in Wales. There is also mention that Queen Anne left it to the Catholic Church. I think it was leased for 100 years, the lease finally expired in 1877. Does the Catholic church now receive the rent? Does anyone know?

What are you talking about. 208.120.84.99 19:56, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Prince, Manhattan

If anyone knows anything about the location known as "Prince", I have just started Prince, Manhattan. Your contributions would be welcome. -- Beland 21:23, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Culture and the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory Fire

Under the CULTURE heading, I'm having trouble understanding why a march to commemorate the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory Fire is the opening example of culture in Manhattan. Can anyone shed some light on this???

[edit] New panorama available

I added a new panorama of the Manhattan skyline taken from Liberty Park in New Jersey here. Feel free to add this to the article if appropriate Kevinp2 04:57, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Unsourced value of Manhattan

"However, if the money had been invested at anything above a 6.25% return (essentially a bond's current yield), it would be worth over $250 billion today, which exceeds Manhattan's estimated value of $200 billion." Where does the figure of $200 billion come from? This site [5] estimates the potential value of Central Park alone at $529 billion; its land (developer) value would be $132 billion. [6] Pallas44 18:30, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA Review

The article is very thorough and well written, but it needs more inline citations. Ideally, every paragraph should have at least one reference.

Also, the list of external links is too long. See WP:EL for guidelines.

The article should be removed from category:Boroughs of New York City.

Epbr123 19:17, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

  • Where does anything say an article should have an inline reference per paragraph to be a GA? If there are any specific claims that need a reference now that would be helpful... --W.marsh 20:02, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Additional citations are being added. Given the size and scope of both the article and the subject, I think the links may need some pruning. As Manhattan is one of the five boroughs of New York City, why should Category:Boroughs of New York City be removed? Alansohn 21:23, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
    • It needed to be removed from Boroughs of New York City as the category did not exist. However, I have now created the category. Epbr123 21:32, 25 April 2007 (UTC)


Good improvements have been made so far but these statements still need quotations:

"it gave rise to what would become the most diverse city in the world"

"New York County is named in honor of the Royal Majesty of Great Britain, the Duke of York"

"The borough has an area of 33.8 mi² (87.5 km²), of which 32.01% is water."

"Chelsea is a neighborhood with a large gay population"

"Manhattan's Chinatown is the largest in the Western hemisphere."

"The term uptown refers to the northern part of Manhattan (generally speaking, above 59th Street) and downtown to the southern portion (typically below 23rd Street or 14th Street)."

"Manhattan's Borough President is Scott Stringer, elected as a Democrat in 2005."

"Republicans constitute more than 20% of the electorate only on the Upper East Side and the Financial District."

"The Manhattan zip code 10021, on the Upper East Side, is home to more than 100,000 people and has a per capita income of over $90,000." Is this from the 2005 census?

"Manhattan's vibrant visual art scene in the 1950s and 1960s defined the American pop art movement"

"The oldest public-access television channel in the United States is the Manhattan Neighborhood Network,"

"The Lincoln Tunnel, which carries 120,000 vehicles per day .... is the world's busiest vehicular tunnel."

"The Queens Midtown Tunnel, ..... was the largest non-Federal project of its time when it was completed in 1940."

"The City University is the largest urban university system in the United States as well as the third largest system in terms of enrollment."


Also, I won't judge the GA award on this but some of the language in the history section is complex and might be difficult to understand by some readers. For example, "Consequently, the negotiations assured that the legal and political tradition of tolerance as the basis of cultural diversity and pluralism since 1624 was perpetuated by the Articles of Transfer under English authority. Thus safeguarded, the notion of tolerance endured after conclusive jurisdictional establishment of English dominion over New Netherland in 1674, and through the formation of the United States of America, when it was reintroduced as a constitutional right under the Bill of Rights in 1791."

Epbr123 21:40, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Here are the actions taken so far:

  • "it gave rise to what would become the most diverse city in the world" REMOVED
  • "New York County is named in honor of the Royal Majesty of Great Britain, the Duke of York" SOURCED
  • "The borough has an area of 33.8 mi² (87.5 km²), of which 32.01% is water." CORRECTED AND SOURCED
  • "Chelsea is a neighborhood with a large gay population" SOURCED
  • "Manhattan's Chinatown is the largest in the Western hemisphere." SOURCED
  • "The term uptown refers to the northern part of Manhattan (generally speaking, above 59th Street) and downtown to the southern portion (typically below 23rd Street or 14th Street)." REWORDED AND SOURCED
  • "Manhattan's Borough President is Scott Stringer, elected as a Democrat in 2005." SOURCED
  • "Republicans constitute more than 20% of the electorate only on the Upper East Side and the Financial District." SOURCED
  • "The Manhattan zip code 10021, on the Upper East Side, is home to more than 100,000 people and has a per capita income of over $90,000." Is this from the 2005 census? SOURCED (FROM 2000 CENSUS)
  • "Manhattan's vibrant visual art scene in the 1950s and 1960s defined the American pop art movement" REWORDED
  • "The oldest public-access television channel in the United States is the Manhattan Neighborhood Network," SOURCED
  • "The Lincoln Tunnel, which carries 120,000 vehicles per day .... is the world's busiest vehicular tunnel." SOURCED
  • "The Queens Midtown Tunnel, ..... was the largest non-Federal project of its time when it was completed in 1940." SOURCED
  • "The City University is the largest urban university system in the United States as well as the third largest system in terms of enrollment." SOURCED
  • Also, many people won't know the meaning of the word "coterminous". Linked to Wiktionary Alansohn 19:11, 30 April 2007 (UTC)



I'm afraid there are more citations needed:

"In the 2004 presidential election, Democrat John Kerry received 82.1% of the vote in Manhattan and Republican George W. Bush received 16.7%."

"is a phenomenon sometimes referred to as Manhattanhenge"

"The Upper West Side is often characterized as a liberal and family-friendly alternative to the Upper East Side"

"Upper East Side, one of the wealthiest neighborhoods in the United States."

"Manhattan has not voted for a Republican in a national presidential election since 1924."

"Lower East Side and East Village, have been associated with the "Bohemian" subculture, though many artists have relocated to Brooklyn from these neighborhoods."

The Presidential elections results table also needs a citation.

This part should be taken out of the brackets and written more formally: "(Though even north and south here are relative - north in Manhattan is a logical north, determined by the main axis of the island, and corresponding to the direction of the avenues of the street grid. Uptown is actually more like north-by-northeast.)"

This line doesn't seem to make sense, "Later, in 1624, no-trading-nature colonists joined to the older ones"

Epbr123 22:11, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Back to the drawing board... Alansohn 22:12, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

For round two, here are the results of all of the changes made to address the issues listed above:

  • "In the 2004 presidential election, Democrat John Kerry received 82.1% of the vote in Manhattan and Republican George W. Bush received 16.7%." SOURCED
  • "is a phenomenon sometimes referred to as Manhattanhenge" SOURCED
  • "The Upper West Side is often characterized as a liberal and family-friendly alternative to the Upper East Side" REWORDED AND SOURCED
  • "Upper East Side, one of the wealthiest neighborhoods in the United States." SOURCED
  • "Manhattan has not voted for a Republican in a national presidential election since 1924." SOURCED
  • "Lower East Side and East Village, have been associated with the "Bohemian" subculture, though many artists have relocated to Brooklyn from these neighborhoods." SOURCED
  • The Presidential elections results table also needs a citation. SOURCED
  • This part should be taken out of the brackets and written more formally: "(Though even north and south here are relative - north in Manhattan is a logical north, determined by the main axis of the island, and corresponding to the direction of the avenues of the street grid. Uptown is actually more like north-by-northeast.)" REWORDED AND SOURCED
  • This line doesn't seem to make sense, "Later, in 1624, no-trading-nature colonists joined to the older ones" REWORDED AND SOURCED Alansohn 15:48, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA pass

The article now fulfills all the GA criteria. Well done! Epbr123 20:10, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Second oldest city

In the article on Manhattan history, it is stated that it is the second oldest city after Santa Fe NM. For the record, your site on Santa Fe lists it founding year around 1607 to 1608. St Augustine, Fla was founded in 1565, making it the Nations Oldest City. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Iandugan (talk • contribs) 21:34, 1 May 2007 (UTC).

  • TSt. Augustine hasn't been continuously lived in, I think, and that's the difference. Article could make this clearer though. --W.marsh 21:58, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
    • The article states "second oldest capital city in the United States", which would exclude St. Augustine. Alansohn 22:06, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Statue of Liberty

...is not in Manhattan, or even NYC, surely - as every trivia buff knows? But it says so in the introduction.... richardcarroll1981 00:07, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

  • Liberty Island, on which stands the Statue of Liberty, is entirely within the Borough of Manhattan. See this link for details of New York's Eighth Congressional District. Also see this link, which covers the Supreme Court's review of issues relating to Ellis Island. "The Compact comprises eight articles, the first three of which directly concern us here. Article First sets the relevant stretch of the "boundary line" between New York and New Jersey as the middle of the Hudson River "except as hereinafter otherwise particularly mentioned." Article Second provides that "New York shall retain its present jurisdiction of and over Bedlow's and Ellis's islands; and shall also retain exclusive jurisdiction of and over the other islands lying in the waters above mentioned and now under the jurisdiction of that state.", Bedlow's (or Bedloe's) Island now better known as Liberty Island. If you have the source that shows the opposite, I'd love to see it. Alansohn 05:51, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recommendations for improvement (simple compliance you may expect for FA)

The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question.

You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Wim van Dorst (Talk) 23:14, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Congestion Pricing

Does anyone have a comprehensive understanding of what this proposal will eventually (or at least potentially) entail? Shouldn't it be put somewhere in the article? DRosenbach (Talk | Contribs) 22:33, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Why not add this sort of details to Transportation in New York City, instead of sticking every minute detail into this article. It makes the article too lengthy. See WP:SIZE. Pepsidrinka 12:20, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Can't edit sidebox at the top of the page

I tried accessing Manhattan's edit page to fix the misleadingly low population density, but the box is not included in the script.

The sidebox itself shows Manhattan's density at "25,846/sq mi (9,979/km²)", which is way off from the "nearly 67,000" in the article, and the nearly 67,000 that I calculated.

  • Density was corrected. It appears that the density per km² was entered and then automatically converted to the stats previously shown. Alansohn 06:33, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Split?

Several editors have expressed an interest in splitting the articles, since they feel it is too long. However, none of them has proposed anything specific here. Is there a consensus to split the article, or should the {{toolong}} template be removed? Silly rabbit 12:31, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Per Wikipedia:Article size#A rule of thumb: ">100 KB; Almost certainly should be divided up". An article isn't necessarily better because its long. Diving it will hopefully make it easier for readers to find the information they are looking for.
/ Mats Halldin (talk) 13:17, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
That's fine, but tagging articles as part of an administrative mark-and-sweep without regard for how an article is to be divided up is worse than useless. The {{verylong}} template should be accompanied by a discussion of how to divide up the article. Otherwise it is just templatecruft or article defacement. No one is debating the Wikipedia guidelines on article length. But if this truly is in the interest of improving the article, then it must be accompanied by some constructive discussion. Until then, the template should stay off the page. Period. Silly rabbit 13:29, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Rules of thumb are great, but they have little relevance if no thought is put in to how to address the issue, or if there is one. This is a worthy topic for discussion as to how to split or trim this article (even though a good part of the increased size is related to extensive footnotes), but the tag adds nothing to the issue. Alansohn 17:23, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree about the tag - it's junky, and it's lazy to apply it without giving suggestions. I think the entire article could use editing (for instance, do we really need to mention Valerie Solanas under culture?) section-by-section. Additionally, I think that two industries central to New York could use their own articles: Sports and Media. --David Shankbone 17:31, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Sorry about this. I've now had a closer look at the article and I realize I was wrong. The one big issue for this article is, imho, not to duplicate information on NY, not the length of the article. So, happy editing, I won't steal your attention any further.
/ Mats Halldin (talk) 18:29, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Contradicting figures within Article

Can someone please thoroughly recheck the sidebox data? I suspect some of the data in there still to be wrong. - E.g.: The text's 1st paragraph reads:

"With a 2000 population of 1,537,195[1] packed into a land area of 22.96 square miles (59.47 km²), [...]"

whereas the infobox has:

"Land: 51.8 km² (20 sq mi)". --Gulliveig 04:56, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

The template was converting from km² to square miles, and it does not seem that there was a reliable source used for the data. Inconsistencies in the source data and the conversion created discrepancies. The underlying borough template was changed to take the Census Bureau data (which is in units of square miles), and then convert to km² for the benefit of all those metrically inclined. The data has been corrected for Manhattan and the four other boroughs, as well. Alansohn 05:37, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
That was fast. Thank you. --Gulliveig 06:09, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Manhattan Island

I am at the moment building a roll call of islands that make up the Thousand Islands. I have come across one named Manhattan Island. I noticed there is a redirection for the page Manhattan Island to a page on Manhattan. At some point I would like to construct a page about Manhattan Island.


Coordinates: 44°21'9"N 75°55'0"W —Preceding unsigned comment added by WebMachiavelli (talk • contribs) 08:52, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 9/11 Attacks

The September 11th attacks are mentioned only in passing in this article. Given their significance, it would seem that they should be mentioned in the history section.Stavrolo (talk) 05:07, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Center of the world?

re: The first sentence of the second par: "Manhattan is the commercial, financial, and cultural center of the United States and, to varying extents, of the world."

The end of this sentence isn't verified by the citation, which only says that New York is the media and cultural center of the US, not the world. Readin' Writin' (talk) 07:32, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

  • The "world center" claims are now explicitly supported. Alansohn (talk) 07:47, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Manhattan most certainly is the center of the world Travis Cleveland (talk) 22:03, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
  • This is a clear case of bias. Financial center of the US, certainly, but the Swiss will rightly disagree about the world ranking. Also, LA has a stronger claim to being the cultural center of the US. harburg (talk) 20:09, 16 March 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.171.191.60 (talk)

I've changed it to "Manhattan is a major commercial, financial, ...". New York is not the center of the world, or even the US. But I did also add that major radio and TV companies are based there. Which I suppose is why people assume the world originates in NY. Wolfram.Tungsten (talk) 20:16, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Nickname "The City"

The box on the right lists a nickname of Manhattan as being "The City". That seems a little silly, doesn't it? Sure people from outer boroughs call Manhattan "The City," but people from Schaumburg IL call Chicago "The City" and people from all over the Bay Area call San Francisco "The City." Isn't that just a generic term for the biggest city in any particular area? Hardly a unique nickname for Manhattan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.136.29.87 (talk) 22:49, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

  • I think you've answered your own question; In both of your examples, people outside of Chicago and San Francisco call those places "The City", not rather unique. What is special about Manhattan is that people who live in the city's four outer boroughs will use "The City" to refer to Manhattan alone. Here, "The City" is being used as a nickname for New York City's smallest borough, not for the city as a whole. Alansohn (talk) 01:15, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
  • I agree that Nickname: "The City" is pretty silly, as this is the common local name for the most prominent city in a metro area. "The Big Apple" is a much more reasonable nickname for Manhattan from a worldwide perspective, and that 5 boroughs example above is really reaching for it, since you are really just playing word games. You might as well say NYC is unique in that it has an extra, superfluous set of county names that other big cities do not. San Jose California is the biggest city in the Bay Area, but "The City" is San Francisco of course. An interesting fact, but so what? "The City" is a local thing. NOBODY in San Jose, San Francisco, or Omaha, NE thinks "The City" is Manhattan, NY.Joebob2k6 (talk) 03:54, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] New York, New York IS Manhattan, NOT New York City!

New York, New York specifically identifies the Borough of Manhattan. "New York City" refers to all five boroughs of the City of New York. Please stop arbitrarily reverting my LEGITIMATE edits! This means you, JamesMLane! 24.168.116.169 (talk) 15:40, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, it's best that both of you look at the local map of new york, municipalities are usually part of major city.

[edit] Wikipedian NYC Meetup

New York City Meetup


Next: Sunday March 16th, Columbia University area
Last: 1/13/2008
This box: view • talk • edit

In the afternoon, we will hold a session dedicated to meta:Wikimedia New York City activities, and have salon-style group discussions on Wikipedia and the other Wikimedia projects (see the last meeting's minutes).

In the evening, we'll share dinner and chat at a local restaurant, and (weather permitting) hold a late-night astronomy event at Columbia's telescopes.

You can add or remove your name from the New York City Meetups invite list at Wikipedia:Meetup/NYC/Invite list.--Pharos (talk) 23:48, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ian Fortuno's edits

I don't know about the rest of you, but I don't care for User:Ian Fortuno's additions to this page. First, many of the photos are low quality and he removes high quality to put them on - that includes the current panorama. Second, the captions are highly inaccurate, outdated and almost laughable (e.g. the West Village is known as a "Bohemian Capital" - maybe in the 50's and 60's!) Third, he inserts way too many photos that end up stacking. Can I get other comments from people who are familiar with his additions to this article? --David Shankbone 18:50, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Swapped for spice islands in indonesia

Watching QI, someone said that the British swapped manhattan island with the Dutch for the spice islands in Indonesia, and got "full marks" for being correct and interesting. Googling didn't bring up much. Any clues? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.192.32.66 (talk) 21:17, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Updadate to that.. It's true! Spice Islands. Perhaps a link, and writeup should be added? :-) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.192.32.66 (talk) 21:19, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't belong here at all, this article being already too big. The swap was for the whole of Dutch North America, and is mentioned in New Netherland#English incursions and Treaty of Breda. Jim.henderson (talk) 16:27, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] I don't get it

The math just doesn't add up. Prehaps someone can explain it to me. According to this article, the population of Manhattan is 1,611,581, and the land on the island is 22.96 sq mi. in size. When I devide the population by the size, I get 70,068, not 66,940, as is implied by the density on this page. Dkerear (talk) 18:32, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Perplexing ref problem at this article

See Wikipedia:Village pump (technical) #Puzzling ref-breaking problem at Manhattan about a strange problem in this article. Graham87 07:52, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Now archived at Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)/Archive 39#Puzzling ref-breaking problem at Manhattan. I'll repost about the problem to the village pump if it ever happens again because it is quite serious. Graham87 09:57, 3 June 2008 (UTC)