Talk:Manchester Grammar School

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[edit] Assessment

Nice looking article. Pics are well chosen. You have references, but there is only really one. Some additional references are required but you can get B as is. I would rate the school as "high" importance based on the 4 or 5 that I recognise as internationally notable. Someone can move this up to the top 200 schools by taking it to "GA". Referencing your alumni would be a start ... is there 3rd party refs that they attended and are notable? The schools project can help Victuallers 22:48, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Manchester Grammar School article.
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[edit] Masonic Connections

MGS is famed for being a breeding ground for members of this shady organisation. They advertise for new members in the Ulula for example and the Highmaster's dais in the mem hall has been donated by them. I think that this should be included.

-care to explain more? - Mget 22:41, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I believe we have our own Masonic Lodge, surely perfectly normal for a school propelling characters from all backgrounds into the forefront of society. Something you contributed on that would be appropriate; if portrayed in a realistic light.

Are the Masons still shady these days? They seem to operate out in the open now. You can go into any Masonic Lodge quite happily now. ThePeg 17:34, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps some people might try to convince themselves that Masons are a 'normal organisation' who have never been involved in political corruption, ban women from membership, and actively encourage their membership to (cough) give assistance to fellow Masons. You can't join the Masons if you're an atheist, and the number of black and minority ethnic members are pitifully few.

[edit] Eton Of the North Claim - Resolved

A search for "Eton of the North" gets ten hits, none of them MGS => removed the assertion. In short, lots of people would like to think theit school is the EotN, but, err, they're not.

No - it's a lot better than Eton in terms of academic study and sporting results. Its a bit of a slur on MGS to describe it as such. I'm not aware that Eton has EVER produced a nobel prize winner (for example) never mind several winners...

Eton of the North would be somewhat misleading, particularly as the title is usually attributed to Fettes. MGS' greatest fame came as the greatest of the Direct Grant Grammars in the sixties- leader of the schools trying to challenge the old public schools in their dominance of top-end education. Lord James would have been most unflattered by the comparison. That said, MGS' reputation for academic excellence certainly qualifies it for consideration as one of the great schools in the land. --Evil Capitalist 17:06, 27 September 2005 (UTC) (an ON, not an OM)

As a current pupil of MGS I would have to agree with Ric's view on MGS, we have a very high quality cricket, football, rugby, swimming and water polo team. The teachers hold very high standards for us all in many aspects and has total tolerance towards disabilities and religious rituals; for instance there is a student in my year Jack who has to use a wheel chair and the school has totally refurbished the school just to habilitate his needs. So, Eton of the North? On the contrary, I think it's MGS of the South.

Selective, fee-paying grammar school for boys in Rusholme; mainly concerned with maintaining its place in the league table of sending kids to Oxbridge.

Ric Euteneuer

Incorrect, it is in Fallowfield. Pupils are encouraged to work hard and do well, not just go to Oxbridge. 81.153.39.100 09:51, 4 September 2006 (UTC)Laurellien

OK, Selective, fee-paying grammar school for boys in the ward of Fallowfield. Better ? Pupils are encouraged to work hard and do well, and to leave if they look like failing

It's selective yes, but there is a large bursary fund to ensure that anybody of any means can go there as long as they have the brains. And if they look like failing, then they get extra help.87.194.9.14 08:24, 7 September 2007 (UTC)Laurellien

[edit] Compulsorary French GCSE

I am a current pupil at MGS and I have to mention the subject choices during 2nd year and 4th year, focusing on languages. As we are often told, 1st and 2nd year and a 'trial period' where we get to grips with the school and prepare for what there is to come. During the 2nd year, I had subject choices, and was appaled to see that you could not drop French. I understand the importance of studing languages, (I selected two other languages in my choices) but surely we should be able to drop French if we studied other languages?

Current Pupil

Watch and wait -Mget 22:40, 31 August 2006 (UTC)


You cannot drop french after 2nd year. You can after 4th year but obviously that is a tad late given you'll have just done the GCSE a year early. The problem I suppose is that, choosing to start Russian, say, at 3rd year would not necessarily put you in a strong enough position to take GCSE russian during fourth year. Maybe the school wants everyone to take a GCSE early.

All in all I agree it's not obvious why french (a subject I detested) is mandatory, when the other key subjects are mandatory only in that one takes a large selection of them, rather than being forced to choose any individual ones. All of geog, hist, phys etc. can individually be dropped.

[edit] Harrow Wins Spelling Bee

Oh, and for any Old Harrovians reading this, John McCririck attended Harrow, along with Mark Thatcher, two of the greatest embarrassments this country has ever seen.

Current pupil

I was at Harrow in the same house at the same time as John McCririck. He's a joke, not an embarrassment! I admit to being amazed at his achieving celebrity status, but you can't blame him for finding a winning formula. Mark Thatcher is a different matter, but how many schools would refuse the Prime Minister's request for her son to attend?

Studying, by the way, is spelt with a "y" = not studing! And you a language student .....!

Curmudgeonly Old Harrovian

Are grammar and spelling included on the MGS curriculum? To judge from some of the above, perhaps it is no longer considered of importance.

Old Harrovian.

Haha, I'm sure there are plenty of misspellers at your school too. ;) -- infinity0 21:39, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

I expect so! But I hope that they might correct their contributions before displaying them in public. Sorry to be a curmudgeonly old bugger, but I regret the decline in care over the written and spoken word.

OH

I regret it too. I believe you meant to say "Are grammar and spelling..." Or were you expecting the answer "Yes, they is."?

An Old Mancunian

I have always regarded Grammar and Spelling as uncountable nouns and therefore singular - though I accept that the reply would be "yes, they are!" so I take your point!

OH harfo32

[edit] Achievement

Like MGS's selective education policy - previously good kids get better results ?? Wow - now there's a revelation - MGS's sports programme is the same. You are tested early on for sporting ability, and if you show none, then you are basically given a football/cricket bat etc , and told to go and play in a corner of a field. No point in wasting good coaching time on pupils who aren't going to achieve good results. Likewise with lower sets for Maths and other subjects - give them the worst teachers. Or even, as happened when I was there, ask low achieving pupils to leave.

Current Pupil

I found that set 1 got the worst teacher and set 7 got one of the best. Understand the sporting comment though. 81.153.39.100 09:56, 4 September 2006 (UTC)Laurellien

[edit] Anti Nazi League

Are you quite sure you got the irony in Ric's description? As an OM myself, I immediately recognised the grain of truth in what he said, at least in relation to the ethos I encountered nearly thirty years ago. However, your points are valid too. Regarding tolerance - was there any truth in the short-lived insertion about the rash of Nazi grafitti? Back in 1977/8, I and a number of my friends were heavily criticised for attempting to set up an MGS branch of the Anti-Nazi League (you'd think a school with such a substantial number of Jewish students would welcome this, wouldn't you?). If the grafitti thing is true, I don't like to say 'told you so', but... :-) Guy Hatton 14:46, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Mmmm, the Nazi grafitti... the cases are true, grafitti, normally swastikas, has appeared a few times now, in toilets, I was startled to walk into a cubicle in the French Block (which stinks by the way) to find the walls covered in Swastikas all over the walls (and a 666 was also on the wall), frankly averyone is disgusted and, despite all this, no perpatrator has been caught! Despite this, I a do think an Anti-Nazi group is a little distastefull, I get your point; but the Nazis are long gone, and facism is not the cause of the grafitti, it is downright disrespect and unruly pupils trying to destroy the system in the most despicable way possible for their stupid brains to come up with, so the come up with being downright offensive!

Current Pupil

Nobel prize winner that went to MGS - John Polanyi: http://www.utoronto.ca/jpolanyi/profile/profile2.html Oh and yeah unfortunately the nazi graffiti in the toilets did happen... :( -- Anonymous current pupil.

[edit] The Lumoxes

Members of the Lumoxes have twice been added to this page. I do not see that in any way the Lumoxes meet WP:MUSIC standard for notability, and hence should not be on this page. Further attempts to include them will probably be considered vandalism - if the IP address who has added them disagrees with this, it might be better to debate on the talk page before amending the article. Didsbury ryder 19:35, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

The IP 128.243.220.41 is from the University of Nottingham so banning won't be an option. Infinity0 talk 19:38, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

care to tell us who they are? apart from vadals though? - nowt wrong with being curious - Mget 22:39, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sprog Jog and Gatley

Just a couple of things about the Sprog Jog I think you should know (I did it last year so I know what it is like in modern years), the Jog is NOT held on heir first day, it is held whenever the school decides, and it is now a jog twice around Fallowfield, the Rugby pitches adjacent to the school. Just thought you should know if you are about to merge them.

Current Pupil

Didn't exist in 1975, I can tell you that much: Ric Euteneuer

Or 1971, thankfully! Just wish the Gatley hadn't existed either: I can't think of anything much more pointless than running round Birchfields Park :-) Guy Hatton 14:01, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

They moved the race to inside the school grounds now. These days if you tried running in Birchfields Park you'd get mugged by scallies ;) -- infinity0 17:00, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

That bad, huh? I did notice that the surrounding area looked rather more run down than I remembered it being when I passed by last summer. Personally, I blame Thatcher :-) Guy Hatton 09:23, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Are you sure about that, I did the sprog jog in '97 (not so long ago) and my class mates did the gatley in 2001 (when i was in 4th year) both of which went through Birchfields park, has it changed since then, I mean ther have only been for Gatleys since?!Justcop

Aye aye. :D -- infinity0 16:13, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Um Im pretty sure that the gatley and the sprog jog are different. The sprog jog taking place shortly after the michaelmas term begins for first years, and the gatley some time in second year. I may be wrong, it's been about 4 years since I was in second year... - Current Pupil

Could somebody please post a more precise date for the discontinuation of the Gatley: 'recently' isn't really good enough (though arguably better than nothing as a temporary wording), and will not remain at all viable with the passage of time. Guy Hatton 18:31, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I believe 5-10 years ago - Mget 22:38, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that describing the Gatley as a voluntary inter-form long jog is accurate. In my time at the school (late 1960s - early 1970s) it was the inter-form cross-country championship race, and was held on the last day of the Easter term. It was only voluntary in that as a member of the school rugby team, I was always "volunteeered" to be on the form cross-country team. If the Gatley has been discontinued, that is a very sad thing. Cymruisrael 15:21, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Luke Bennett

Who is Luke Bennett (actor)? The only Luke Bennett I can find was an editor http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0071896/ , and I can't find any biographical details to indicate if he used to attend MGS or not. Didsbury ryder 12:13, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

He has no article, so even if he exists he's probably not notable enough to be included. I'm deleting it until someone provides evidence of notability. -- infinity0 15:56, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

There was a Teacher about 5 years ago alled MR Bennet, who died whilst he was at the school, I don't know if he was called luke but this could be a referenceJustcop

- Matt Bennet taught me RS for a year and a half and sadly died from, I think ,a brain haemorrhage, so no it does not refer to him. Matt Bennet was a great guy btw.

[edit] Highmasters

The list of high masters here is pretty pathetic considering the school was founded in 1515. Does someone still at the school want to go and note down the list outside the mem hall so that we can have a complete collection. Justcop

I'll go do it, but you sound like you're familiar with the place. Who are you? -- infinity0 13:50, 21 April 2006 (UTC)


The list is complete.

[edit] Pictures

Correct me if I'm wrong, but with stuff like this image

Don't you need the subjects' permissions to use this image in public? -- infinity0 08:52, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

true but not not widely enforced. actually it's "transmission" which isn't allowed - but that doesnt make much difference. - not many people actually enforce it except sometimes TV channels. i wouldn't worry - Mget 22:32, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Recent vandalism

There has been a spate of vandalism on this page during August 2006. Needs watching more carefully. DFH 18:35, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

It does, but I feel that your particular reversion was ill-considered, as it had more serious consequences than simply removing vandalism. I have made what I feel to be a more appropriate reversion. Guy Hatton 07:41, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I was a little hasty in going back 2 edits too early. Thanks for making the correction. DFH 11:29, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
No problem, I've found myself doing more harm than good that way on occasions too :-) Guy Hatton 15:28, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Guy, Why not create your user page, and say just a little about yourself? DFH 15:49, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Question:

Are you editing against things which are true but show up the school in a bad light? - because i have a feeling you are going to censor us on this edit and an addition i will be making in the not too distant future.

anyway please only edit what is not true or offensive, not informative Though i think my wording is a bit poor at the moment thanks

-Mget 22:36, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

No, we're 'editing against' material that is not appropriate in the context of an encyclopedia article. Some things may be true, but are not usefully 'informative' in such a context. Poor wording will usually be improved by other editors in fairly short order :-) Guy Hatton 08:01, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

well if something is blatently wrong(in the eyes of a current pupil)[and looking at the history other people too] what does one do about it? by the way what do you call "not appropriate" the truth? i realise you would prefere not to show the school up badly but what is more important the truth or the lie? Personally I find your wording does not leave the article neutral and/OR accurate, how can you justify this? I've just been looking around and i imagine you want published evidence before you will allow it to be included? right? i'll see if I can find some if that would be the deciding factor? what evidence do you have that sprog bashing day is a myth?- where is that published - please tell me because I would really like to see it- Mget 13:59, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I base my argument on; WP:NOT, WP:CITE and WP:NOR. All of these are open (to a greater or lesser degree) to interpretation, of course, but I feel you might benefit from perusing them carefully. Guy Hatton 09:27, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

i will read and respond - Mget 11:51, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Largely the work of ex/current staff/pupils, the nature of this article clearly allows for lack of citation to be agreed by consensus of the type of people likely to be viewing and editing the page. Many will contest that the school is not a secret society nor are 1st years brutally executed on particular fridays. Sprog bashing will have been introduced to the article as an folklore curiousity. If it ever occurred in centuries past it is likely no accounts/records have survived. As of now it exists as an idea not an event.

I sincerely doubt you or your friends experienced anything of the sort not that you have implied such.

[edit] Expeditions and treks

Something should be inserted to describe the various expeditions & treks organised by MGS. In my own time at the school, I went on Scottish Trek a couple of times. DFH 15:58, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Archived materials on Foreign Trek and Scottish Trek are available in PDF format at [1]. DFH 16:03, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Faisal Islam

Is it true that the respected and successful young journalist Faisal Islam (now at Channel 4 News) used to be a pupil at this school?

He certainly hails from Manchester, and is an alumnus of City University – see [2]. DFH 13:21, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Faisal Islam was appointed business correspondent at Channel 4 News in May 2004 [3]. In February 2006 he was named Young Journalist of the Year at the Royal Society of Television awards. DFH 21:22, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Yes Faisal was at MGS and was in my brother's year 1987-199480.176.137.225 21:10, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A few queries

a) was MGS really 'for Lancashire boys'? The BAAS survey of Manchester and its region put out for its 1962 meeting in Mc/r quotes MGS's charter of 1525 as saying it was to admit boys 'of whatever country or shire soever'

b) "sapere aude" - according to the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations, anyway (I now see there is a Wikipedia entry which gives the same origin)- comes from Horace , who seems a much more likely source of a school motto than Kant. Does the fact that Kant also used the tag adequately establish that the MGS usage is a quote of Kant, rather than Horace? (The ODQ translates the tag as 'be bold and be sensible', although I will admit the standard MGS gloss is 'dare to be wise' the ODQ version seems to fit better with the context in which Horace uses it. Any classical scholars care to comment?) Rjccumbria 04:33, 26 September 2006 (UTC) I seem to remember 'sapere aude' was on Hugh Oldham's coat of arms as Bishop of Exeter and therefore certainly comes from Horace.

[edit] Alumni

Why has someone formatted the names of some MGS alumni in italics? They are not the titles of books or articles! DFH 13:15, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

This was done by myself to highlight them. I decided to put the alumni into paragraph format since for some information about them specific to thed school was available, and in a couple of cases info about two of them together. There are a lot of necessary links in the alumni section. The people themselves needed highlighting. I tried bold but then settled on italics

[edit] Chris Addison

Why was Chris Addison removed from the list of notable Old Mancunians? He is a talented, successful and respected comedian who has been nominated for the Perrier award and recieved a Sony Gold Award for best radio comedy. And he is also famous enough to have his own Wikipedia Article, if that means anything to you.

I agree. He should be put back on. ThePeg 17:35, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Done. DFH 16:59, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Enough notability to have a wikipedia article does NOT guarantee enough to be listed as an alumni on the article's main page. We do not need a lower standard for more recent expupils. If we allowed all those of similar standard the list would be endless; I am not going to humour this page with examples.

What would be good and constructive would be to make a seperate 'list of notable old mancunians' which would include Mr Addison. While on the current page stick to having a high standard for inclusion on the main page.

[edit] Discipline

The language in the discipline section makes the school sound like a military training center. This really gives the wrong impression. I have never even heard the term "Deputy Prefect". "Silver Prefect"s are normally just called prefects. I'd change it myself, but I don't know enough details; only enough to know that what's in the section atm is very inaccurate. -- infinity0 00:38, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Also, is the claim "Over 90% of lower sixth formers become Silver Prefects" accurate? I seem to remember a rather lower number (around 75%?).

I know that in a letter sent by the High Master to Sixth Formers last month, the terms used are "deputy prefect" and "full prefect". But not capitalised. JDH Owens

Why has Computer Hacking been added to the discipline section? it seems it has been added without a word being said about it's arrival. Do we have any evidence for 'Hacking' being such an epidemic as drugs or bulling? In my view it deserves more explanation if its inclucion agreed, as 'Hacking' is not similar in nature to drug abuse or bulling and for a school which does not teach I.T. it seems hard to believe it is such a problem. Your thoughts? - Mget 19:45, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Founders' Day ?

Does MGS still have an annual Founders' Day service (as it did during the 1960s)? DFH 14:03, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah it does - current pupil 6/1/07

[edit] Not trivia

Most of the information in the section headed Trivia is not trivia per se. Can some think of a better section heading? 86.133.66.146 19:02, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I would suggest this is split as follows:

Sports
Material on the Gatley and Sprog race day could be included in a section which starts by describing sports undertaken now and any recent sports achievements.
(NB in the 60s sprogs had 'trials' on the first Saturday of term. Everyone had to nominate their favourite sport and we were all assessed during a trial game. No-one was excused.)
(It might also be worth recording that in the 60s swimming was undertaken naked - not sure why and not sure when this was abolished!)
Camps
This material is useful and an important part of the school history.

The last two paras (maths coridor and the bus service) are not of any very wide interest and could be deleted.

I'm also sure 'Sprog Bashing Day' is an urban myth and should be deleted - it was unknown in the 60s (though not necessarily sprog bashing itself or at least taunting...)

Keithuk 13:01, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

OK, as I had some spare time, I have bitten the bullet and tackled the trivia section. Almost all the text is still there but some of the minor items I have banished to footnotes and the rest is under new sub-headings.
I have also reworked the summary to make it more of an overview and put the para about girls' schools down below with Bugosa school. Detail on funding status also moved below (and expanded on). I also added some more historical info about funding. I have added a section on curriculum with a very bland opening statement, (plus the bit about the maths exam) but I realise there is nothing on MGS' recent academic record anywhere and perhaps someone with access to recent info could add this in. It's actually the main point to make in the article, probably!
I still feel the discipline section should be edited down to about a quarter of its length - it reads like an extract from the school handbook verbatim. Could the original contributor or someone with recent knowledge have a go at this?

Keithuk 13:30, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Some drastic pruning?

I've added some paras on the early history which seemed to be missing, with citation.

The material on the current school is very interesting to me personally (Keith Mason 1963-70) but surely some sections are far too detailed for a Wikipedia article (eg the prefect and punishment systems).


Keithuk 11:47, 14 April 2007 (UTC)