Talk:Management by perkele

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Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on 14/3/2006. The result of the discussion was keep.

The article is interesting, but it makes several strong claims which need citations in order to stand. In addition, some of the claims (such as claims of bigotry) veer close to POV. I've never been to Finland and know little of the management culture there, and AFAIK this article is correct--but it still needes sources. --EngineerScotty 16:41, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

I happen to live in Finland, and can affirm that there are a lot of companies where it is mostly true, generally speaking, but do agree that it contains very strong streaks of POV, and of course most CEOs have a more sensible way of managing than the one described. -Islander(Scandinavia) 20:37, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Since this article is about the expression itself, it is only natural that the description is how the swedes perceive the finnish management style, regardless of how wrong their POV is... (I guess I should add that I'm a swede myself, but with finnish roots) Mattj452 17:49, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I changed some of the grammar in this page to bring it more in line with conventional English. With absolutely no disrespect intended, it was fairly obvious that this page was written by a non-native English speaker. <unsigned>.

I have seen this phenomena several times in the past, and it is called "My way or the High Way" I think this name is more suitabe than the existing one. Eyalmelamed 21:29, 18 March 2007 (UTC)


[edit] what?

Interestingly, the Finnish Defence Forces themselves have recently adopted a different leadership doctrine, "deep leadership", based on trust, inspiration, intellectual stimulation and encountering the subordinates individually.


I edited that out since... well, it's not true. I finished my military service approx 1 year ago and never heard or saw any truest or inspiration. Fear of the drill sergeants sounds more accurate :P.

[edit] RW

This article is currently messy, misleading and wrong. If you do not object I will rewrite the article from the scratch by 23rd of April 2007. WHY...Firstly: Management by perkele is not a positive decision making tool. As the article stands today, it redefines "Management by perkele" to a mostly way for getting needed things done efficiently. In fact, after reading the article someone might be tempted to seek for a job out-side Finland and to be promising to deliver "Management by perkele".

Simply, "Management by perkele" is not a decision making approach, but much broader and almost evil and controlling attitude towards subordinates. For example Finland's national hockey team coach Raimo Summanen explained his "Management by perkele" leadership model with expressions like "I treat them like dogs" and "it is just about bullying and verbal humiliation" (in original Finnish "Pelkkää simputusta ja v...luahan koko touhu on."). LINK

Current state of the article would also fail to explain, if "Management by perkele" would just be a decision making approach, why the Finnish economy students wrote a following slightly satiric, 5-point Guide for implementing "Management by perkele" 1) Don't care too much about employees' well being 2) Create a strong person cult for your organization, key point being: "I am The organization" 3) Reward denunciations and create an efficient espionage network 4) Curse and shout Satan when you feel like it, be quick in punishing for all errors 5) A leader should always maintain his eyes on subordinates neck

LINK

Current article state also fails to explain popular online opinions like (sorry in Finnish): 1) "Suomalainen management-by-perkele ei kerta kaikkiaan toimi muualla maailmassa. Se asia on pakko oppia ymmärtämään ja hyväksymään, jos haluaa tehdä bisnestä" (Translation: "The Finnish management-by-perkele absolutely does not work elsewhere in the world. One has to learn to understand and accept that if one wants to do business." --Ronja Addams-Moring 21:03, 20 July 2007 (UTC) ) LINK

2) "Management by perkele tunnetaan Erikssonin mukaan tänäkin päivänä, vaikka elämme tietoyhteiskunnan ja asiantuntijaorganisaatioiden aikaa. "Pelätkööt, kunhan tottelevat" -mentaliteetti on edelleen melko yleinen suomalaisissa yrityksissä." LINK

3) "Ruotsissa eräät suomalaiset johtajat eivät osanneet antaa tunnusta ruotsalaisille alaisille. Joku antoi tälle johtamiselle muistaakseni nimen "Management by Perkele"." LINK

4) "Management by perkele" naturally involves a certain amount of shouting." LINK


Thus, more true is that "Management by Perkele" is for making subordinates to feel intimidated, quite worthless and replaceable. Well, Management by "Perkele" refers to an evil spirit not to an efficient leader? And why the article fails to explain why "Management by perkele" is deemed unsuitable for civilian organizations normally operating conditions. Article now also fails to describe where Management by perkele is well suited and the methods shortcomings.

Alternative term "Management by fear" could be used in describing this leadership style LINK. But then what is that fear based on? And now the article fails to explain In addition, the article gives too much weight for the military aspects - "Management by perkele" is a 95% about company management NOT about military manners. Military command is authoritarian everywhere. Besides, in "management by perkele" is predominantly present in large hierarchical organisations that are mostly populated by / run by women like hospitals, universities, government offices.

Current article links are also "bad" and not saying anything deep about the "Management by perkele". Except that English study that cannot be accessed online. A following article (in Finnish) summarizes the findings in that original English article: LINK

With these words, I challenge Finnish speaking editors to Google for "management by perkele on" and to find anything positive that the "management by perkele" can bring to normally operating civilian organizations. My googling resulted raw material, for to be rewritten article, that tells "Management by perkele" (MBP) to be:

- MBP is the same as "management by fear"[1]

- MBP is being replaced by West-European polite leadership approaches [2]

- MBP is out, and leading of the skills and knowledge have become more important [3]

- "Military leadership is based on commanding and obeying. Also often the Finnish civilian leadership. "Management By Perkele" is still used in too many organizations. MPB is well suited for crisis, but its shortcomings are obvious, if the employees are really wanted to be involved into the process, by the heart. MPB is totally unsuitable for leading a voluntary expert organization" [4]

- Guide to MPB in a nutshell (slightly satirically)[5]:
+ Don't care about employees' well being
+ Create a strong culture for your organization, key point being: "I am The Organization"
+ Reward denunciations and create an efficient espionage network
+ Curse and shout Satan when you feel like it, be quick in punishing for all errors
+ A leader should always maintain his eyes on subordinates' neck


etc.

[1] "Pelolla johtaminen, usein viitataan termiin 'management by perkele' on useissa työelämän epävirallisissa keskusteluissa liitetty osaksi johtamisperinnettä" Sosiaaliset innovaatiot työelämän muutoksissa

[2] "management by perkele" on vihdoin väistymässä ja länsieurooppalaiset kohteliaat tavat tulossa tilalle." LINK

[3] "Management by perkele on out. Sen sijaan johtamisessa tärkeämmäksi on muuttunut osaamisen ja tietämyksen johtaminen." LINK

Even the military magazine says it is bad: "Sotilasjohtaminen, muutoksistaan huolimatta, perustuu viime kädessä käskemiseen ja tottelemiseen. Myös suomalainen siviilijohtaminen usein. Management-by-perkele on voimissaan liiankin monissa yhteisöissä. Se sopii hyvin kriisiin, mutta sen heikkoudet ovat ilmeiset, jos henkilöstö halutaan todella sydämestään mukaan. Vapaaehtoisen asiantuntijaorganisaation johtamiseen se ei sovi ollenkaan." [4] LINK

The Economy students write (satirically) about "Management by perkele" in their college magazine: " MBP korttipakassa: - Älä lankea työntekijöiden hyvinvoinnilla elämöivien tutkijoiden harhautuksiin - Luo vahva kulttuuri organisatioosi: mottona olkoon "Organisaation olen minä" - Palkitse ilmiannot ja luo tehokas tarkkailuverkosto (tätä voidaan kutsua verkostojohtamiseksi) - Sano Perkele reilusti ja rankaise virheistä välittömästi - Tulevaisuuden johtajalla on katse tiukasti suunnattuna alaisen niskaan." [5] LINK


[6] LINK


Jääkiekossa management by perkele on vanha menestyskonsepti, joka on edelleen käytössä. NHL:n menestyneimpiin kuuluva valmentaja ja moninkertainen Stanley Cup-voittaja kiteytti pelaajien johtamismetodinsa lauseeseen: "I treat them like dogs". [7] LINK

"Ruotsissa eräät suomalaiset johtajat eivät osanneet antaa tunnusta ruotsalaisille alaisille. Joku antoi tälle johtamiselle muistaakseni nimen "Management by Perkele". Ruotsalaiseen yrityskulttuurin kuului positiivisen palautteen antaminen alaisille. Suomalaiselta johtajalta ruotsalaiset eivät saaneet riittävää palautetta onnistuneesta työstä." [8] LINK

View in swedish: "Och med de nya entreprenörerna förändras även den traditionella finska företagarkulturen. Borta är "management by perkele" och in kommer nya vindar. - I och med att många unga och akademiskt utbildade nu blir företagare försvinner de gamla, auktoritära ledarmodellerna." [9] http://www.adiente.fi/images/press/realtid_12_05.pdf

[10] LINK

So, do you agree/disagree with me, about the need of rewriting the article from the scratch?

It appears there are two contradictory meanings to the phrase. One is the Swedish expression for the Finnish non-democratic but efficient leadership style; one is the Finnish expression, which means management by fear. It seems that you want to force the second meaning instead of the first. Management by fear is a wider concept and warrants its own article; it's not just Finnish. Also, if te read the article, the third paragraph actually mentions management by fear, and distinguishes it from Finnish leadership in general. --Vuo 12:31, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the comments. You are right that the Finnish and Swedish views do differ. And I found even more points of views. for example...
1) some links mention, MBP is well suited for crisis, but unsuitable for volunteer expert organizations. On a contrary, Wikipedia article Anti-pattern (a pitfall) lists "Management by perkele" as an organizational anti-pattern

--> Management by perkele: Army-style management with no tolerance for dissent

In earlier Wiki discussion about whether to delete MBP-article, someone could actually provide a testimony that the term is in active use as an anti-pattern

--> "Strong Keep Notable term. Used in US in certain software engineering circles as illustration of what not to do to succeed." BY MR. dryguy"

That view is supported by a Finnish research http://www.digitoday.fi/page.php?page_id=13&news_id=200415321 Magazine LINK


2) "Finnish management culture appears as a strange combination of pragmatism, “action-orientation” and privacy, “introversion”. Finnish managers themselves like to see themselves as flexible, straightforward, and those who get things done. From outside they appear silent, modest and shy".... ..."Management by "perkele", the slogan created by Swedes, emphasizes temper and impatience. Finnish managers, unlike Swedish, are not keen on long discussions, but instead long for action."

LINK Thus: (privacy,shy, introversion, temper(kiivaus,kiukku) impatience (kärsimättömyys)) are more than efficiency

3) The Swedish view about management by perkele, also includes tones like:
a) A jocular and popular (Swedish) description of the Finnish management

style is “Management by perkele”, that is management by cursing and swearing (“De viktigaste svenska IT-företagen”, Computer Sweden, Nr 1- 2, 2004, p.15).

b) Statsmakten syns av allt att döma ha gjort sitt digi-beslut i äkta MBP-anda (Management-By-Perkele)?
...Sverige går klokt nog sin egen väg. Finland tillåter däremot inte konverterande digiboxar i centralantenner. Det innebär att nuvarande tv-utrustning på hotell och skolor, sjukhus och vårdhem, kastas direkt på sophögen. Grattis, 5-0 till Sverige.... "Management by perkele"-spirit in Digi-TV project

Thus, a MBP also seems to include elements of stubbornness, even if the route seems to be bad.


4) Scotish view about Finnish Leadership and Management by Perkele in practice: Sorry its a long snip but again it gives different point of view.
"Anette Risberg (1999a), a Swede, studied acquisitions of a Norwegian and Scottish company by a Finnish company, Kone. The acquisitions took place in 1973 and 1987. The main impression of the Finnish managers given by representatives of the acquired companies was that the Finns do not speak a lot and that they do not interfere much with the subsidiaries’ operations. They do not interfere, however, until the profit is going down. Then they become very authoritative, giving direct orders and making sure of what they want to be done is done. Financial control is the key for the Finns to keep track of the subsidiaries. One of Risberg’s informants in Norway commented upon this: “They have especially good control over what has happened, that is financial reports come fast afterwards. One does maybe not care about to plan and look ahead, but has very good control over what has happened”. This seems to be a well-known ‘fact’ among Finnish managers. In Laine-Sveiby (1987:130) a Finnish manager was quoted saying “A Finnish MD is focused on numbers.”
Risberg (1999a) reports that in Scotland the managers of the company acquired by Kone were frustrated over the fact that the Finnish top management rarely showed any interest in the people working there. When they came for meetings, they rushed in and they rushed out to catch the plane back home. The stereotypical Finnish silentness also seemed to be problematic for the representatives of the acquired company. Finns never gave any instruction what they expected the subsidiary to do; they never gave any feedback, except when they were disappointed; they never talked to people, except to fellow Finns; and they did not seem to care about “building relationships”. This gave the Scots the impression that Finns were either cowards or dishonest people, as they never gave an answer to questions they did not want to answer. (Risberg 1999a).
Cowardice and dishonesty, however, are images that are not in line with the Finns’ auto-stereotypes. A common trait that Finns like to emphasize is that they are honest and straight-forward people (Ekwall and Karlsson 1999; Laine-Sveiby 1991).
In Laine-Sveiby (1991), what Swedish managers in a subsidiary of a Finnish company seemed to want the “most was to find a way to get the Finns down from the – if not a pedestal – at least a podium. The Finns did do their “Eriksgator” and sometimes visited the Swedish subsidiaries. But they rarely – or never – had the time to sit down with their co-workers to talk to them. There seemed to be a dream, in every subsidiary, that the Finnish top management would get more time, come in to one’s office, sit down and say, ‘Hi, I’m Risto and this is what I look like…”"
Risberg, Tienari,Vaara


5) And there are many more published expert opinions available e.g. ... (sorry availabel only Finnish).
"Diesel-moottoreita ja voimaloita valmistavan Wärtsilän Leif Österroos on vastannut koneiden huoltoon liittyvistä asioista vuosikymmeniä niin Suomessa kuin Aasiassakin. "... "Suomalainen management-by-perkele ei kerta kaikkiaan toimi muualla maailmassa. Se asia on pakko oppia ymmärtämään ja hyväksymään, jos haluaa tehdä bisnestä maailmanlaajuisesti. Tarvitaan laaja-alaista tietoa paikallisista olosuhteista, kulttuurista, uskonnosta ja käytöstavoista, listaa Österroos."

LINK

6) And as you noted that "management by fear" aspect in Finland is apparently quite characteristic, but it also has it's reasons (e.g. difficulty of finding a new job, high housing costs)
Pelolla johtaminen on koettu tyypilliseksi suomalaiseksi johtamistavaksi. Sen juuret ovat suuryritysten ja harvojen omistajasukujen aikakaudella. Management by perkele tunnetaan Erikssonin mukaan tänäkin päivänä, vaikka elämme tietoyhteiskunnan ja asiantuntijaorganisaatioiden aikaa. "Pelätkööt, kunhan tottelevat" -mentaliteetti on edelleen melko yleinen suomalaisissa yrityksissä.

http://www.verkkouutiset.fi/arkisto/paakirjoitus/104768.html

By the way professor's clause "Pelätkööt, kunhan tottelevat" (Let them fear us, as long as they obey us) trims nicely with "Let them hate us as long as they fear us" quote by Galigula.

Rengine 20:07, 17 April 2007 (UTC)