Talk:Man Booker Prize

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Contents 1 Page Title 2 Longlist / shortlist -vs- Long list / short list 3 List of longlists 4 Unclear 5 Link 6 Flags 7 Choice of Countries

[edit] Page Title

Since the Booker Prize is known as the Man Booker Prize, shouldn't Booker Prize redirect to Man Booker Prize rather than the other way round? --Kevin 23:58, Dec 18, 2004 (UTC)

Disagree. "Man" is the commercial additive to the real name. When the commercial sonsor has expired, the "Man" prefix will go and we'll have to change the title again. Why not let it rest at Booker Prize? Mandel 13:58, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)

It is a dilemma how the prize should be named and referred to as on an encyclopedia. Surely the current official name is Man Booker Prize and we better stick with that. But the prize became to be known so only starting from 2002. And how long this sponsorship will last and the prize be named so is also in question. Consider those award receivers before 2002, they were awarded Booker Prize rather than Man Booker Prize.

My suggestion is to use the name Booker Prize as is commonly known and redirect Man Booker Prize. MarkBeer 02:18, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

• I'm with Mandel (and MarkBeer you give your own good reasons for retaining the title as is, in your opening comments). The Man Booker may very likely have folded without Man Investments coming on board, and if ever it should prove necessary in due course, there is absolutely no problem with redirecting to Booker Prize and editing a "history of the name" section to explain matters in more detail (Wikipedia is not paper). By all appearances, Man is making a strong, long term investment in supporting the Man Booker and this has been the official and correct title for several years. You see some journos in their articles referring only to it as "the Booker" and IMO this is lazy inattention to basic detail. I'm not saying that "the Booker" should never be used in everyday parlance or writing, but for me, those who may know or refer to the Man Booker only as the Booker have quite simply got the name wrong. 203.198.237.30 05:01, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

I've no objection with the page currently being named as Man Booker Prize. My suggestion is Booker Prize (as is commonly known) be a better arrangement. There is absolutely no problem with redirecting Man Booker Prize to Booker Prize and at the very begining of the page stating:

Man Booker Prize, commonly called Booker Prize, ...

and editing a 'Status of the name' section to explain that the official name is currently such and such, cf the page Bertie Ahern for a supporting example.

Problems are also noticed when referring to the prize on other pages. If we stick with the official name in history, John Banville's The Book of Evidence (1989) was shortlisted by Booker Prize (as was called in 1989) and his The Sea (2005) won the Man Booker Prize. This is undesirable inconsistency. Although I have optioned for Man Booker Prize under both occasions on the Banville page, Roddy Doyle's Paddy Clarke Ha Ha Ha (1993) should on no account be said to have won Man Booker Prize. MarkBeer 06:49, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

• Ok. I don't accept that it is accurate to say that the Man Booker is commonly known as the Booker (this is not the only reason why I think so but for what's its worth, through involvement with an international writers' festival, my experience is that people who know what they're on about only use Man Booker - unless as I've said, it is intended as shorthand). Also, I don't agree that we should redirect to an article where the bolded term does not match the title. This would raise the separate issue of inconsisency with the basic WP convention of having title and bolded term match. Articles on people like Bertie Ahern are an exception which prove the rule. For me, the references on other pages are not inconsistent and it is completely accurate to say that Banville was shortlisted for the Booker in 1989 and the Man Booker in 2005. This is mere detail that may need to be checked more carefully depending on dates and I'm prepared to assist policing that - the desirable outcome being appropriate use of piped links. I suppose there must be many other instances of awards and titles changing names over time, with the differences perhaps becoming a mark of distinction in themselves (but not suggesting this for Booker/Man Booker). Off the cuff this comes to mind: Queen's Counsel, some time ago known as King's Counsel, who may now be called Senior Counsel. 203.198.237.30 08:42, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

An exception which prove the rule? You've lost me I'm afraid. We might have had too many exceptions to prove that rule. The page of United Kingdom has United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in bold. So is the page United States. Are you telling me something like there is absolutely no rule, Mister Hongkong? I beg your pardon.

By the way, the page Hong Kong has Hong Kong Special Administrative Region of the People's Republic of China in bold. Shouldn't we have the latter as the page title and redirct the former to the latter? I hope you would not venture to disagree that Hong Kong Special Administrative Region of the People's Republic of China is commonly known as Hong Kong. Have a nice day, siree! MarkBeer 10:36, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

• So, this is to become ever more fun! Considered, relevant, non-churlish comparisons to geopraphical locations, and my! you can do a look up. You're well on the way to forming a solid consensus on this one. 203.198.237.30 11:33, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Comparison reveals fallacy and elucidates truth. More examples galore: C. S. Lewis, Hessell-Tiltman Prize, and Newdigate prize. A much similar case is the WTA Tour which is now under the sponsorship of Sony Ericsson and has its official name as The Sony Ericsson WTA Tour, but no body calls it so in full except those big companies or organisations that hire bunches of (presumably trademark and patent) solicitors to make their public release more legally right. Glad that WTA has not venture to change its website address which is still http://www.wtatour.com/ rather than the ridiculous http://www.thesonyericssonwtatour.com/, whereas Booker Prize has obdiently moved its website from some otherwise address to the current http://www.themanbookerprize.com/. I shall wait to see the day when the sponsorship expires and the labour necessitated to change their official website domain, as well as the title correction and redirecting on an encyclopaedia. Have a nice day! MarkBeer 02:47, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

• There are nearing a million EN WP articles and you come up with these irrelevant examples, and yes, exceptions which continue to prove the rule. You've exceeded yourself, comparing CS Lewis to this situation, and you may want to explain how the history and naming of these other prizes demonstrates any relevance, given that there is currently nothing on their pages which does so. But only if you're not absolutely convinced of the superiority of your position. 203.198.237.30 05:23, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

We're glad that some is begining to assert their superiority by refuting every counterexample as irrelavant and a mere exception that proves the rule. We shall beg them go back to their Latin class for a re-education on etymology. Before that we shall keep doubting their mentality and implore them to have sense.

For detailed rejoinder, C. S. Lewis (and other examples) was intended, at least, to disprove the following statement by an anonymous (as the IP username construes) user:

I don't agree that we should redirect to an article where the bolded term does not match the title.

Although, as it transpires, the user is reluctant to rescind this assertion made by them, they have reached the decision not to reiterate it. Since page under the title of C. S. Lewis could have its begining with Clive Staples Lewis in bold and search of Clive Staples Lewis is indeed redirected to the page C. S. Lewis, the page titled Booker Prize might as well begin with:

Man Booker Prize, commonly and previously known as Booker Prize, is ...

and be redirected to from search of Man Booker Prize.

Again, as for what is or could be termed as common, a bigot mind is sure to pout. Bonsoir, MarkBeer 07:16, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

• You old charmer, MarkBeer! You "don't understand mean people" (for third parties: from MB's user page) but there is some struggle with civility here. As no one's about to enforce WP:NPA by spanking you for your churlishness, and I'm sure that you're actually a nice guy, let's start over. You started off by saying (btw, disregard my initial reference to agreeing with Mandel) that we should keep the official name, but then proposed redirecting to Booker Prize from Man Booker, with the article starting off with "Man Booker Prize (commonly known as...)". The current redirect setup deals with this (the Booker disambig article includes a link to the article MB) - but there isn't a redirect from Man Booker to the MB article, could you kindly create and redirect? - and my last edits to the MB article to better explain the naming thing will hopefully provide some satisfaction. 203.198.237.30 02:35, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

One's glad that some's proposed to shove off incivility. For that I agree.

I have no objection of any sort for the current version, where the page has a name Man Booker Prize. My suggestion is that Booker Prize might be a better alternative than the official yet temporary name. Thus, according to my outlook, the article of this entity is titled Booker Prize starting with:

Man Booker Prize, commonly known as Booker Prize, is ...

or even better:

Booker Prize (current official name Man Booker Prize), is ...

and Man Booker Prize is redirected here.

Having no problem with the status quo and agreeing to disagree, I wish the user I am having the converse with had spent a gorgeous Valentine's Day in Hong Kong (as the IP address divulges). Cheerio, MarkBeer 00:33, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

• Yes, we got the HK thing earlier, and apology accepted! I think we could include "commonly known as" as you suggest (you know this is also mentioned in the 3rd para, right?). Btw, I'm curious about why you feel that Man is "temporary"? Do you know something we don't?? (and to play devil's advocate, what if it was Booker which got the chop?) 203.198.237.30 07:01, 15 February 2006 (UTC) (btw - thanks for creating Man Booker and redirecting, cheers) 203.198.237.30 08:05, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

• "one of the world's most prestigious literary prize"

Shouldn't this be "...prizes"?

[edit] Longlist / shortlist -vs- Long list / short list

Mel and Ken, why stop at edit warring and near violation of 3RR when there may be much more fun to be had after a few barely civil exchanges here descend into outright ad hominems! For what its worth, the Man Booker people apparently prefer longlist / shortlist. Here also. 203.198.237.30 08:33, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

But, first, our article (to which this article links) is Short list; secondly, we should use the Wikipedia Manual of style, not the stylistic preferences of the subject of the article (this is standard policy in any reference work). Finally, "short list" and "short-listed" are overwhelmingly preferred in British dictionaries, "short list" and "short-listed" in the U.S.; as this is an article on a British award, we should use the British for for the noun phrase (whatever the PR people for the award do), and there's simply no genuine alternative for the verb. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 12:44, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Let me be perfectly clear about my position. I do not disagree with Mel concerning dictionary definitions or British English. My position is that those things are not of primary importance in this case. We are talking about a thing that is known all over the world as the Booker shortlist. That, in my opinion, outweighs Mel's preference for some dictionaries over others.

Furthermore, Mel, your reference to the Wikipedia Manual of Style is misleading at best. Go read it again. It clearly supports my position.

My last point: the consensus so far is in favor of "shortlist" 2 to 1. Stop editing this article against the consensus. KennyLucius 18:51, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Aside from anything else you are still changing a link to an existent article Short list to a link to a non existent article "shortlist". Also, to cliam consensus on the basis of one other opinion, offered by someone who doesn't appear to have read the debate on your Talk page, and couched neutrally, is pretty thin. You are also close to violating WP:3RR. Why not take a breath, count to 100, and leave it for a while? --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 23:09, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

A thin consensus is better than none, and you have reverted as many times as I have. Perhaps you should take your own advice.

I notice that you didn't mention the Wikipedia Manual of Style supporting my position. Have you relented on that particular point? KennyLucius 06:47, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Frankly I'll take the advice of a fellow admin, and leave this, as it's not worth the effort. I've piped the link. If you insist on following the Man-Booker PR people's semi-literacy, fine. most readers will be semi-literate too, so I don't suppose that it matters. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 11:23, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

That's very kind of you, Mel. On semi-literacy: if I know that shortlist is not in the OED yet, that's half of literacy. I guess the other half is using only the words in the OED, right? I'll go along with that, but I must express my disappointment that you didn't address my IP argument. I intend to use short list correctly except when referring to a property purposely and consistently entitled shortlist.

[edit] List of longlists

Should we also create a list of longlisted novels like the list of shortlist and winners? The information's on the official site. It would be really tedious though. Skinnyweed 22:21, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unclear

It is also a mark of distinction for authors to be nominated for the Booker longlist or shortlist. In 1993, the Booker of Booker Prize was awarded to Salman Rushdie for Midnight's Children (the 1981 winner), as the best novel to win the award in the first 25 years of its existence.

Does this mean that Mr. Rushdie won the prize twice, in 1981 and 1993? That seems odd. 140.90.208.79 13:49, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

He won the Booker in '81 and the Booker of Bookers in '93. Two separate awards. --Steve 23:44, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

How come one author is written down as being from Scotland, yet others as being from the United Kingdom??? Shouldn't they all be the UK or split into the separate nations?? ## Sign your posts, please.

Probably - I created the country lists a while back, and thought about that - the UK in this list is essentially a proxy for English. It can certainly be changed, but I'd like to hear feedback from others - should we make everyone from N. Ireland/Scotland/Wales/England UK, or identify authors as specifically English? Since the Man Booker Prize is a Commonwealth organisation, it does recognise sub-units of the UK. Irregulargalaxies 16:48, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Link

Why was the link to the betting for the 2007 Booker Prize removed?? This is clearly a very relevant link. The official Booker Prize website even has articles about the betting market, which have been listed in each of the last 25 years, as an important indicator of a likely winner. If you think it is spam, then you should remove the TurboBookSnob.com external link which is deriving commercial benefit as an affiliate to several e-commerce sites such as Ebay.

I removed the other one, as well, you are quite right about that. María (críticame) 16:26, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Flags

Someone needs to fix the table so that there is a UK flag instead of text saying 'Flag of the United Kingdom'. I would do it myself, only I have no idea how. --Helenalex 00:25, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Also, the South African flags should be switched to the Aparthied-era flag. --Jfruh (talk) 01:32, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Also, someone needs to remove the Australian flag credits from the two JM Coetzee entries. Crediting Australia is ridiculous. JM Coetzee moved from South Africa to Australia long after both Booker Prize awards and none of his work (before the awards) is about or was influenced by Australia. 80.171.132.141 (talk) 21:32, 9 December 2007 (UTC) John B.

• I see no compelling reason to have flags at all. Writers are not sportsfigures representing their country in national competitions, and, as we have seen, people move .... In fact I'm not sure of the purpose of the nationality column at all -- but I think we should definitely eliminate the flags. See WP:FLAG for more discussions, btw. --Lquilter (talk) 22:08, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Choice of Countries

I wonder who chose the Commonwealth plus Ireland. It's like the Brits regarding Ireland as a "Home Nation" ("not really foreign, you know"). But since the precedent for a non-Commonwealth country was set, why not the USA? It's English speaking too.Millbanks (talk) 12:38, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

This is entirely my own guess, but I think that Ireland is included because it was part of the Commonwealth until the 1940s. The US was never part of the Commonwealth because it achieved independence before the Commonwealth was established. Two South African authors won the prize during the period that South Africa was excluded from the Commonwealth, so the criteria for allowing a country to be part of the prize do not appear to be strict. Bláthnaid 18:33, 19 April 2008 (UTC)