Image talk:Many Karelias.png

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I updated the map:

  • Removed all pre-WW2 borders. Since this is supposed to be about "traditional" Karelia. I've only left the current borders.
  • Added North and South Karelias.
  • Expanded the map further north. I've used the border of the Karelian republic as the northernmost border.

If something else needs to be fixed, just leave a note here. I'll be on vacation from tomorrow on, so just don't expect me to do anything in a while. :) -- Jniemenmaa 18:54, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I have map, where Kantalahti is part of White Karelia. And is North and South Karelia really named traditionally (pre WW II). I mean they were part of Ladoga Karelia and Karelian Itshmus before Soviet invasions, not distinc parts, because there were not border in the middle of them. (sorry my bad Inklish :-)) Kahkonen 19:24, 2004 Jun 21 (UTC)

Yes, I actually agree with you. But I am uncertain If the whole are we call North-Karelia today was known as Ladoga Karelia before WW2. If it wasn't, then what was it called? Same goes for South Karelia, before WW2 it was part of Viipurin lääni (Viborg county) which included what today is the region of Kymeenlaakso.
So, everything east of Kymijoki could be called Karelia, but not everyhing is on the Karelian Isthmus, neither are they part of South Karelia. What should they be called? (Damn, first the map looked elegant and simple, now I can only see problems ane errors) -- Jniemenmaa 19:58, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)
One must simplify the truth while boiling it down to something possible to teach and memorize.
...And I agree. Regions within Karelia is such a mess. I've no sources at my hand, but would be prepared to bet that North Karelia and South Karelia as we think of it today are late constructs. If not post-1945, then at least post-1920.
A branch of my family lives in what I was learned to call Northern Karelia, in Kitee. But my relatives there make a point of emphasizing how they nurture the remnants of a South Karelian culture, distinct from that of the wooddwellers in the North — and that the dialect of their ancestors from the Sortavala region was indeed South Karelian.
Judge not, and you shall not be judged. /Tuomas 07:57, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)
And there is also area named Border Karelia (Raja-Karjala) (part of Finnish Karelia to north from Ladoga). Kahkonen 10:34, 2004 Jun 22 (UTC)

Now I finally found the page: Karjala (it's in Finnish). Jniemenmaa, please read it. Kahkonen 08:19, 2004 Jul 24 (UTC)

Yep, I already read that page (I think I mentioned it somewhere before). Since the page is maintained by the "Kotimaisten kielten tutkimuskeskus" I think we can trust it. Were you thinking about adding Border Karelia to the map? -- Jniemenmaa 12:12, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Yes, and I think we can't draw very clear border between it and other parts of Finnish Karelia. Maybe some kind of dithered color or something? I'll try to find more information about those names. Kahkonen 11:20, 2004 Jul 25 (UTC)

Border Karelia (Raja-Karjala) was same as Salmi jurisdictional district (kihlakunta). Salmi district comprised Suojärvi, Salmi, Impilahti, Korpiselkä, Suistamo and Soanlahti coyntys (kunnat). Border Karelia was part of Ladoga Karelia. The area between Sortavala and South-Karelia was Central Karelia. But Central Karelia wasn’t so common than South, Ladoga and North Karelians (So maybe it shouldn’t connect to map). Kantalahti district is part of historical White Karelia and Salla-Kuusamo region isn't part of White Karelia. Also the border between White and Olonets Karelia should be a little bit norther (former coyntys Rukajärvi, Paatene and Petrovo-Jam were part of Olonets Karelia. Also the border between Ladoga and North Karelia isn't the same that the present border between Finland and Russia. The border between Ladoga and North Karelia is the same as the border between Viipurin lääni (Viborg province) and Kuopion lääni (Kuopio province) was. So Ilomantsi, Tuupovaara, Pälkjärvi, Värtsilä, Tohmajärvi, Kitee and Kesälahti coyntys are part of Nort Karelia and Suojärvi, Korpiselkä, Soanlahti, Ruskeala, Uukuniemi, Saari, Parikkala ja Simpele are part of Ladoga Karelia. So Finland lose also part of North Karelia and part of Ladoga Karelia is still part of Finland. It’s true that now days “West-Korpiselkä” is part of North Karelia and Uukuniemi, Simpele, Saari and Parikkala coyntys are part of South Karelia. The lines between historical regions and present day regions aren’t the same. So for example historical North Karelia isn’t the same as the present day North Karelia. --Kyzyl 15:13, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Cool! When I did this map allmost two years ago I wasn't able to find this information. So some of the map is based on quesswork. I think I'll have to redo the map from scratch at some point in the future. -- Jniemenmaa 07:48, 27 January 2006 (UTC)