Talk:Malvasia

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The following user(s) are actively involved with this article and may be able to help with questions about verification and sources: Peter G Werner (talk • email) This in no way implies article ownership; all editors are encouraged to contribute.

Removed from article:

A butt of wine (from the medieval French and Italian botte) is a large cask (or barrel) holding two hogsheads of wine. A hogshead varied in size but today is most commonly 63 U.S. gallons, so a butt is now usually 126 U.S. gallons or 108 imperial gallons.

This is true but why is it here? Rmhermen 10:03 Aug 20, 2002 (PDT)

Because the only reason any of us cares about Malmsey is because of George "Butt of Malmsey" Clarence who was allegedly drowned in one in the Tower of London, and scholars have wasted (dare I say it?) butts of ink on whether it's possible to drown in a butt of wine. -- isis

Then include a statement about that in the article. As it stands it has nothing to do with Malmsey. Rmhermen 14:01 Aug 20, 2002 (PDT)

Is this the royal "us" Isis? Believe it or not, there are wine fanciers (such as myself) that enjoy a good Malmsey and do think its deserving of an article. --Peter G Werner 20:41, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

Okay, I understand now what the problem was, and I've provided the missing link. Thanks for pointing it out.
Does anyone know whether Malmsey (1) is a fortified wine now and/or (2) was a fortified wine then? Some of the sources I found called it a "light" and others a "strong" wine, and some of the current catalogs list it as a fortified wine, and some of the older materials refer to it as a sherry and others as a port. Help! Is there an oenophile in the house? -- isis

Oinofile to the rescue. I won't fill up this page with my response, but here is a link to it.> http://www.greekwinemakers.com/malvazia.html Nickcobb 23:35, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Added to article: ... of Laconia , or, as has been much more convincingly argued recently, the district of Malevizi, extending south west from the city of Candia on Crete).

The source is a conference article by Stylianos Alexiou, Professor Emeritus of the University of Crete, entitled "Malmsey, the wine of Malevizi" (in Greek). Alexiou presents convincing arguments as to why Monemvasia could not have been producing or exporting enough wine at the time Malmsey became popular in Europe, and how vintners came to Crete to take vines to Madeira. Details on the wine trade from Crete are mentioned in several travelogues since 1415. Lastly, the name "Malevizi" is much closer to "Malvasia" (alternative of Malmsey) than "Monemvasia".

I haven't seen Alexiou's work. Among the problems with his theory would be: 1. The connection in various medieval languages between Monemvasia, Malvoisie and Malmsey seems reasonably clear. 2. Medieval sources always distinguish between Cretan and "Candie" wine on the one hand and "Malvoisie" or Malmsey on the other, and they never seem to say that Malvoisie came from Crete. 3. Monemvasia is well placed to be the export centre for Cycladic wine (where Monemvasia grapes are grown now) and was actually a trading port; Malevizi is not so well placed and wasn't. These points don't disprove Alexiou's theory, but I'd love to know how he deals with them. Andrew Dalby 11:54, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Contents 1 Does Malvasia only mean unfortified wine? 2 Move and Rewrite 3 Needs sections 4 Additional Information

[edit] Does Malvasia only mean unfortified wine?

I dont think this bit of the article is correct: "Presently, however, "Malvasia" generally refers to unfortified white table or desert wines produced from this grape". In Madeira most non-Madeira Wine Company (ie Portuguese rather than English) firms use "Malvasia" or "Malvazia" rather than Malmsey to designate their sweet fortified Malvasia wines. In particular, I have a bottle of 10 year old Malvasia from (the very reputable) Vinhos Barbeito in my store. These firms also tend to use the Portuguese "Bual" rather than "Boal" for the medium sweet wines. Sasha 09:33, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

What you say makes good sense to me. I think you should be bold and correct the article! Also, yes, I know the spelling "Bual", not "Boal". Andrew Dalby 11:45, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm the one who wrote that, and I agree, some clarification is needed. I don't think you are entirely correct in your assertion that most non-MWC Madeira companies use "Malvasia" rather than "Malmsey" for Madeiras made from this grape. You are correct about Barbeito being labeled "Malvazia", however, Henriques & Henriques call theirs "Malmsey" (I have a bottle of it right in front of me). Broadbent also ships a 10-year-old "Malmsey" (made for them by Justino Henriques). The MWC brands, Henriques, Barbeito, and Broadbent cover what's available in the US, so those are what I have direct experience with. Searching the web, I was able to establish that there are only a few other companies out there that make non-vintage Malvasia/Malmsey. One of those, Justinos Madeira, had a website that was very revealing about the issue – for their 10-year-old varietal, the English-language version of their site calls it "Malmsey", while the Portuguese-language version calls it "Malvasia". [1] [2] Hence, the name may have to do whether they export the wine primarily to Portuguese-speaking or English-speaking countries. (Note, however, that Henriques & Henriques refer to their wine as "Malmsey" on both the Portuguese- and English-language versions of their website. [3] [4]) I'll re-edit the relevant paragraph shortly to make the statement more accurate. Peter G Werner 17:49, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I may have overstated my case. Better a civilised discussion than a reversion war! MWC and Barbeito are the ones I drink most - yes, another expensive habit I've acquired! :) I'm sure you're right that 'Malmsey' is more likely to be used for exports to English speaking countries. Justino Henriques uses the name 'malvasia' on his Portuguese website. Looking at what one can buy online, Henriques & Henriques use all three spellings; Barbeito use 'malvasia', I think on principle; Perreira D'Oliveira use 'malvasia'; Artur de Barros e Sousa use 'malvazia'; HM Borges use 'malmsey' though. The point is that, even for English speaking customers, the two terms are both used for the fortified wine. (And personally I love it!) Has anyone ever tasted the unfortified stuff - what's it like? Sasha 11:18, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, I was specifically referring to usage on non-vintage Madeiras. As I stated in the article, Malvasia/Malvazia is very common for Vintage Madeira. On the other hand not as commonly used for non-vintage Madeira (I stated - in error – that it was never used for these). For non-vintage Madeira, Borges, Henriques, and all MWC labels uses "Malmsey", Justino's seems to use both, D'Oliveira and ABS, uses neither – they call their NV sweet Madeiras "Doce", (even on Madeiras as much as 15-years old) presumably because they use Tinta Negra Mole or a blend for their non-vintage line. I believe D'Oliveira and ABS are mainly in the Vintage Madeira business these days, and their NV madeiras are just a sideline. Peter G Werner 17:03, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Move and Rewrite

I moved the page from "Malmsey" to "Malvasia" and I've substantially rewritten this article, clarifying the distinction between white Malvasias and Malmsey Madeira, and generally rewriting and reorganizing the article for clarity. I also got rid of the illustration, which had nothing in particular to do with "Malvasia".

--Peter G Werner 20:45, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Needs sections

Howdy, Peter! I was looking over at the Malvasia article and I'd love to have the opportunity to work with you on some areas that would be great to expand. I would say foremost, I think it would be helpful to break the article into sections-especially with a separation between "Malvasia the grape" and "Malvasia the wine". Underneath the "wine" section there could be sub sections with notes about the wine's history leading up into the modern day labeling practices. Let me know what you think! Agne 03:21, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree about creating sections for the article, but separating into "grape" and "wine" sections is not the best way to go about it, since the history of the two is so closely intertwined. Also, if you look at the articles on other wine varietals, you'll see that the articles all cover the grape variety and the wine varietal without breaking those topics out into different sections – see the articles "Pinot noir" and "Cabernet sauvignon" for examples. In the case of this article, "Origins" and "Madeira" might be the best way to split the article up, with more information about Malvasia from other parts of the world added later. Peter G Werner 06:29, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I split the article into an introduction and an "Origins" section similar to the way the Zinfandel article is formatted, and I Wikified the references so they appear as actual footnotes. Amatulic 05:54, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Additional Information

Peter, This article has some more history re. Canary Islands Malmsey

http://enjoyment.independent.co.uk/food_and_drink/news/article1993588.ece

and a Shakespeare quote to boot. Perhaps it would be of some use. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.189.135.170 (talk) 13:37, 1 March 2007 (UTC).