Talk:Maltheism

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Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on September 16, 2006. The result of the discussion was redirect to Dystheism.

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[edit] Who exactly believes this anyway

How old is the word maltheism? Does the person who coined it know that mal comes from Latin and theism from Greek, and that some people consider mixing the two to sound uncouth? (It's done in automobile and television and lots of other words, but those have become so much a part of the language that we'd be talking about pushing back the tide with a fork.) Michael Hardy 19:39, 31 Oct 2003 (UTC)

This article fails to mention a couple of items. First, how large is this body of belief? If it is limited to just a few people here and there this should be prominently stated; the length and scope of the article ("maltheists believe...") would lead one to believe that there is some kind of maltheist movement but there's little mention of it on the web outside of wikipedia mirrors. Second, a great deal of space is spent on the maltheist's unique take on the "problem of evil" but then fails to address the "problem of good". How do maltheists, as a group, explain the existence our source of Good? If God is evil then how was Good introduced to the world? Glade Diviney 10 Nov 2004
Glade, my dad wrote quite a bit about the problem of evil vs. the problem of good situation. I didn't think it worthy of inclusion here, as it was getting too detailed about one particular thing, but the answer to your question is relatively simple from the Maltheist perspective. Paraphrasing my dad:
      1. While it is often said that good cannot exist without evil, there doesn't seem to be any logical basis for saying this. Things we think of as good could exist in a world without evil but they would not "stand out" as something that ought to be given a special label like "good". There is no logical reason to assert that a world that is totally good without any evil could not exist—in fact isn't Heaven supposed to be that very world?
      2. But the converse is not true: a world that is totally evil without any good in it could not sustain itself for any extended period of time. It would wither and die. While good can exist without evil, evil cannot exist without good. It is part of the very definition of evil, that evil feeds off of good and takes advantage of it in order to thrive. It is in fact what defines it as being something evil.
Thus there is no "problem of good" in the manner you describe it. Not only is it not a problem per se that good exists in a world supposedly created by something evil, good is a necessity in that world in order for the evil to thrive. I hope that makes sense. As I said, I didn't want to go into this kind of detail in the article, as it seemed too narrow in focus, but if you think this merits inclusion, perhaps it should go somewhere, though I'm not quite sure where. This article has already accused of being a rambling personal essay, and I hesitate to make it more like that. Craig zimmerman 17:53, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)


Who exactly believes in this anyway? [[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 20:17, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

it's true that this is a (latin/greek) hybrid word. That doesn't say it isn't 'real', though (because so is e.g. automobile). A better term would be dystheism (in fact, dystheism does get a couple of google hits). Webster doesn't know either. It's hard to find background on the history of the term. The ideas expressed are of course genuine, and have long been present in theology. But I don't know if there is another, more "official" term. dab 21:17, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)


Of the 1800 google hits, more than 1400 seem to be related to WP mirrors (this is getting ridiculous). The others are mostly blogosphere. Maybe we should concentrate on dystheism: very few, but academic-looking google hits. dab 21:24, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I got the impression when rewriting that this was somebodies pet idea, or maybe a concept entered into philosophical debates by atheists, but... I am willing to bet there isn't much of anybody who even uses the term, much less some sort of "community". [[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 21:36, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
you are right, the article was not written well. I maintain that the content is notable, however, we just need someone with more background to improve it. Or somebody with a good lexicon of theology. We may have to move it, either to Dystheism, or to whatever the proper terminology turns out to be. dab 08:19, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I have a pretty good lexicon of theology, but I've never heard of either term. My impression is that perhaps the content should be split into atheism, gnosticism, and satanism, but I don't feel strongly about that. What I do feel strongly about is that we need to discuss who uses this term, and how, in a verifiable manner. I find the external links woefully inadaquate, and would like to see a prominant or expert source taking a stand on these issues. Since I don't plan on doing much more with the article myself however, I intend to be pretty agreeable with whatever it is you (or the next guy ;) decide on doing here :) Cheers, [[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 11:04, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I agree completely. I propose a move to Dystheism. At least we have one serious source [1] (utexas; well, better than nothing). (a funny take on the issue is here).
There are three possibilities concerning God: eutheism, dystheism and atheism. Eutheism is the thesis that God exists and is wholly good. Dystheism is the thesis that God exists but is not wholly good. Atheism is the thesis that God does not exist. The argument from evil, if it is successful, establishes the falsity of eutheism, leaving us with the two remaining options. If the argument from evil is to be used as an argument for atheism, we need some argument against dystheism.
dab 11:27, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)


further cut down the article. I am now convinced that most of the original text was almost entirely without merit, probably written by a rebellious high-school kid. We would need a competent writeup of dystheistic thought in judaism, gnosticism, and satanism etc. dab 12:06, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Great! I'm convinced that the more rewriting done, the better the article will be. Finding that utexas link at minimum convinces me the page should exist, something I had been questioning. I'm impressed with what you have done here. Cheers, [[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 12:14, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I can't say that I understand what the purpose behind the decimation of the Maltheism article really is. Calling it the work of a rebellious high school kid smacks of the kind of presumptive disdain you would see from people who scoff at anything but established mainstream religions. Should we also get rid of the Satanism article, too? How about Gnosticism? Or for that matter Judaism? This may sound flippant and perhaps abrasive, but by what standards do we judge which articles on subjects of religion stay or go, and who gets to say what in them? Should aryan nations folks be allowed to edit articles on Judaism to offer their perspective?

The word "maltheism" has been in broad discourse for decades. My father lectured on the subject for many years. He was using the word over twenty years ago, and the term is still prominent across Usenet and other boards, a variety of web sites, and in the real world. (Which you would think would be slightly more important than presence on the web.) The Beliefnet community has a forum dedicated to Maltheism, not Dystheism, and people who hold the belief (who I think carry more weight than the words of a single academic) use the word maltheist. Admittedly, there are not many of us, we don't exactly evangelize or proselytize the way many mainstream religions do. But are only major world religions supposed to be represented here? My own google search for "dystheism" came up with less than ten hits. Despite what the other person said, the majority of google hits on maltheism are NOT self-referential, not blogospherical, and certainly were far more numerous than the numbers for dystheism.

I hesitate to say this, because I fear it would unleash a wave of back and forth hostility, but I have to wonder if the decimation of this article is itself religiously motivated. I do not know who these people are who did a chop job on the original article, but I have to ask: would you treat so-called mainstream religions with the same disdain? There are religions with articles on Wikipedia that do not even have any adherents, or whose adherents are long dead and forgotten. Why strike at a legitimate belief about the nature of God that happens to be radically different from yours? Do we not have the right to honest representation here on this web site? I hope my fears are unfounded, but if in fact the purpose in emasculating the content of the article is religiously motivated, we have a right to know that.

I strongly propose returning the name of this article to Maltheism, and linking Dystheism to it, rather than the other way around. I also strongly propose restoring much of the deleted content. Some of the edits are quite benign and are textual improvements for sure, but others simply remove statements it seemed the editor would not rather not hear. As the supposed rebellious high school student behind significant portions of this text (for the record, I'm married and have two children, thank you) I took what I thought were thorough steps to ensure that things were stated as much as possible from the desired neutral point of view—stating things not as facts but as what Maltheists believe about God and about other religions. I would welcome corrections that would further this goal. But I certainly do not appreciate wholesale deletion of text because someone disliked what was being said.

I apologize if I am not doing this correctly, this is my first talk edit as a registered user.

Craig zimmerman 21:30, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The following is a list of references to maltheism on the web, not including Wikipedia or any mirrors of it, not including Google groups searches and not including Beliefnet where maltheism has its own community. While some of these links are from the "blogosphere", even these demonstrate that the word is in common discourse, specifically among people who consider themselves to be maltheists. No one out there is using the word "dystheist" to describe their beliefs. Even those who stand against maltheism and belittle it use that word, not dystheism. We have basically one academic, himself not even a "dystheist", versus people using the name maltheistic to refer to their beliefs.

Craig zimmerman 22:31, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

well, maybe we have to separate dystheism from maltheism, although they realy just mean the same thing. dystheism seems to be the term for academic theological speculation, and maltheism the 'hip' term used on the net. if you can point us to an actual 'maltheist' society, with members and statutes and all, we can write an article about them. I would still prefer to have an article on the history of the idea itself. No, the chopping was not religiously motivated. I like the idea and would like to do it justice. I think the way to do it justice will be a serious article, and not a personal essay. dab 22:39, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I see the distinction more along the lines of dystheism being (as you say) the term for academic theological speculation, while maltheism is the term that at least some set of people who hold this belief actually use. Most of the text I included here was paraphrased from my father's own writings, so forgive me if it came off like a personal essay. I did try to keep a neutral POV about it, paraphrasing my dad's words saying that these things are what maltheists believe as opposed to theological facts. (I'd noticed some other articles on various religions aren't quite so neutral, but I suppose that's another story.) I'm glad we can agree that doing this subject justice is the reasonable thing to do. Might I suggest an article on dystheism describing the academic term and its brief documented history, referring to an article on maltheism as a real world manifestation of dystheistic belief? Does that sound reasonable?
One more thing: running through this particular discussion there has been an interest in furthering documentation of historical instances of maltheistic/dystheistic ideas. Yet one particular example, the Eshu legend, was apparently deleted from the small list of existing examples. Can we put that back, for completeness?
Thanks for your help. Craig zimmerman 15:40, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
And I apologize if I appeared snooty. It would be helpful if you could point to some sort of organization of people who really believe this, and have an agenda, or press releases, or something like that. Otherwise, I fear, unless the argument is connected to the history of theological thought, it will read rather like a personal essay. As noted above, "maltheists believe" suggests some sort of organized movement, rather than theological speculation, and so far we have no evidence to support this. Of course the idea itself is trivial, and people will always come up with it independently (hence probably the "homemade" term 'Maltheism' (vs. Dystheism)), but in the interest of notability, we should focus on what mainstream theology has to say on this. And, to be convinced of the truth of the idea is a different matter entirely, and I imagine most people will opt for Atheism (because, after all, if we believe there are lies in the Bible, why question one part (God is good) and not another (God exists)). I will do some research into this once I have the leisure. As for Eshu, you know, Dystheism really seems dependent on Monotheism. Malevolent polytheistic gods are very common and add nothing to the concept here. User:Dbachmann 15:58, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
No apology necessary, DAB. I'm just glad we can work towards mutual agreement. Maltheism isn't exactly an organized religion, even in the loose sense, and I could no more point you to an organization of Maltheists than I could have pointed you to an organization of Marranos during the Spanish Inquisition. Does this in itself make Maltheism unworthy of inclusion? Would it have been inappropriate, if we'd had the resources back then, to omit Marranos from an objective encyclopedia constructed during the 1500s because we couldn't identify a formal organization of them or a statement of their doctrine? I could offer personal testimonials of individual Maltheists I know personally from all over the world, but I doubt that's what you would be looking for as an impetus. I know that Maltheist "meetups" have been set up via the web, but perhaps that's considered online or blogospheric activity. As for your questions of "why doubt God's goodness but not doubt his existence" my Dad frequently compared this to a reading of Nixon's memoirs. We don't take his spin on the events surrounding his Presidency at face value, knowing what we know about the man, but we don't doubt that he existed or that events he described did not happen at all. And as for your thoughts on Eshu, I disagree that Maltheism/dystheism necessarily is dependent on monotheism—some say the universe is "run" by a bureaucracy that is at best incompetent and at worst malevolent; this combines the worst of polytheism and Maltheism, I guess. :-) But you are absolutely correct that polytheistic beliefs frequently offer a set of deities who exist at a variety of points on the good/evil spectrum. Perhaps this should be mentioned at some point to note that not all beliefs about God/Gods refer to a benevolent entity? The Eshu example is one that Joseph Campbell used himself to demonstrate the variety of cultural attitudes about deities. Craig zimmerman 18:13, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] how this article should be organized (ToC)

not at all; it is perfectly alright to cover a community even if it hasn't gone beyond the internet (we do have the GNAA precedence, after all). However, in this case, there is more to the issue than a group of individuals communicating on the web. There is a venerable theological tradition, certainly more notable than blogs. That doesn't mean the blogs are out, just that they come after. We should have:

  • concise definition
  • history of the idea in theology
  • contemporary activity / "maltheism".

re inquisition, you don't want to pretend you are persecuted, though? If the Church of Satan can be institutionalized, I am certain, so can the "maltheists". "The universe is run by incompetents" is a very different idea, very common in polytheism (if not put so bluntly, in general). It doesn't belong here. Dystheism is about a God who claims to be morally good, but is not. Good and Evil in the moral sense arise with monotheism. (polytheistic gods are neither good nor evil, they are just people too). The bible passages related with dystheism (Job etc.) are intimately connected with the rise of monotheism (i.e. they are vestiges of YHWH before he was monotheistic, i.e. they hark back to a time where there was no claim that any god be good or evil.

DAB -- No, I wasn't seeking to pretend to be persecuted or to invite persecution, thank you. My Dad certainly got his share of that in his time though, but that's not the issue. My point was that people like the Marranos didn't have an organization associated with them yet certainly they are worthy subjects for inclusion. Being "institutionalized" has more than one connotation, I'm sure you know, and frankly I see no reason for Maltheism or any of its adherents to be associated with either one. The "universe run by incompetents" idea was simply meant as example, it isn't even reflective of Maltheist thought about God (saying that God might be incompetent rather than deliberately malicious). Maltheism has been accused of being Yahweh-centric, that it is specifically an indictment of Judeo-Christian-Islamic beliefs about God. Perhaps it is, but is dystheism? Somewhere, I think, this notion should be presented in the abstract, as a statement about whatever God there is, whatever his name is. Perhaps that's more the purpose of a distinct dystheism article?

Ok, here's my suggestion: let's put the contemporary maltheist "blog-style" activity in a section towards the end ("modern forms" or something), rather than taking over the whole article, making it sound vindictive. dab 18:35, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

That doesn't sound bad at all. Might I suggest the following breakdown into separate articles:
Dystheism
    • Article on theological concept of dystheism as referenced on the UTexas page that DAB supplied
    • Contrast with/pointer to article on eutheism, also referencing the UTexas page
    • Historical instances of dystheistic belief/thought
    • Mention that polytheistic beliefs frequently refer to maleovelent/trickster Gods, mention Eshu, contrast with dystheism having more monotheistic focus
    • Pointer to article on Maltheism as concrete modern manifestation of this notion
    • Comparison with/pointers to gnosticism, satanism, atheism (why many notions used to support atheism do not rebut the dystheistic perspective, e.g., why Nietzsche's statement about not believing in a God who always needs to be praised doesn't mean that such a God does not exist, merely that he would find it repugnant to believe in such a God)
Maltheism
    • Described as real-world manifestation of dystheistic beliefs (pointer to dystheism article)
    • Reference to theophilia as Maltheists' term for eutheism - note that they are not the same thing in that theophilia refers to people loving God whether or not he is deemed good
    • Specifics of Maltheistic belief as they contrast with general notion of dystheism (e.g., notion of worshipping an evil God who oppresses humanity as 'treasonous' is a specifically Maltheist notion, not necessarily a dystheist one)
Eutheism
    • Article on theological concept of eutheism as referenced on the UTexas page that DAB supplied
    • Contrast with/pointer to dystheism
    • Pointer to summum bonum which is an explicit extreme example of eutheism
Theophilia
    • Described as term used by Maltheists to designate people who believe in God's existence and worship/love him
    • Used to distinguish two types of theists - those who do worship/love God and those who don't
    • Contrast with/pointer to eutheism
Craig zimmerman 20:44, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] history of the idea

ok, here are some references:

  • “ I cannot believe in a God who wants to be praised all the time. " Nietzsche, Friedrich
  • “The only excuse for God is that he does not exist.“ Stendhal in Camus, Albert (1953) The Rebel, Metaphysical Rebellion, Absolute Affirmation. (Penguin Books: London), pp. 58.

though they are really more connected to the "Problem of Evil". Nietzsche and Camus should by all means be included here, though. If anyone has the Oxford Bible Dicttionary (or similar), do check the Book of Job entry! dab 18:46, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I think we'd find it hard to discuss dystheism/maltheism without referencing the problem of evil. :-) As a side note, I responded to another contributor's question about why there is no corresponding "problem of good" in Maltheistic terms. Where (if anywhere) should that go? Craig zimmerman 20:48, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
well, we are referencing the problem of evil, i.e. linking to its article. We don't need to explain it here. The "problem of good" may need some explanation here, if we can come up with a reference — it's not enough to compose ad hoc theological speculation here, this would amount to original research. If you like, write an essay on the "problem of good" and publish it somewhere on the internet, and we can afterwards link to it. The "problem of good", however, would only arise for someone who claims God is the "summum malum" ("kakotheism"?). If dystheism simpy disputes that God is the summum bonum, no problem of good arises. dab 08:13, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
"Dystheism" cannot simply be the dispute of summum bonum, since many believers dispute that, and in fact it isn't a particularly widely understood or agreed to concept. A huge portion of believers see God as either being mixed of good and bad, or possessing a morality incomprehensible to most of mankind. Maltheism suggests a malevolent god, not just one who happens not to be pure goodness incarnate. [[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 12:45, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Dystheism is coined as the opposite to Eutheism. It does not imply a God who is entirely, purely evil (a better term may have been aneutheism:) How many Christians would agree that God can be selfish, mean, spiteful etc.? However, the belief that God can be malevolent doesn't imply pure evil. A "Problem of Good" would only arise if a purely evil God was postulated. dab 13:04, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Many Christians, and even more Hindus, muslims and Jews concieve of a jealous, angry God who can appear quite unfair, perhaps even cruel and petty. I have a good friend who is christian, and who (despite being a particularly nice, altruistic guy) assumes he is going to hell. Have you heard of Calvinism? Their concept of Predestination (Calvinism) is shocking indeed. Or how about God hates fags? Maltheism is the concept of a god who is mostly bad, not just slightly bad, as far as I can tell. W as bizarre a catagory as this is, its important that we not define it in such a way as to potentially include most (or many) ordinary believers. [[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 13:58, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Yes, I have heard of Calvinism. The common Christian view is that God may appear evil, but only "because his ways are hidden", i.e. because the full picture is not available to us. In Christianity, God is good by definition. If your friend thinks otherwise, he may be a dystheist. (thinking that he goes to hell because he deserves it, otoh, doesn't imply malevolence on the part of God: God would still be good, just your friend wouldn't (in his own eyes). Dystheism would imply that God sends people to hell who do not deserve the punishment, or that he maliciously created sinners only so he could send them to hell (which has some connection with Calvinist determinism, only a Calvinist would never admit to the maliciously part, but rather claim ignorance of God's greater plan) dab 16:48, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

My friend feels that God is strict, and that he (himself) is bad, so he's no dystheist. Calvinists think God is right (so does Fred Phelps), and morally unquestionable. I think the key here is that maltheists (dystheists, whatever we call them) think God is bad, generally (not just partially). I think this "Problem of Good" would be good to explore, regardless of if the God is shown to be all bad, and regardless of if we can find a refernce discussing it (this subject is far to obcure to be particularly strict Re: citation, if were going to go that route, it will likely need to be made a stub, and kept that way). [[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 19:36, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Well, this discussion has certainly become lively. :-) The two of you bring up many of the very same issues Maltheists have grappled with. For instance, if eutheists are those who believe God is good, and yet some of them believe that being jealous, angry, spiteful, and cruel are characteristics God manifests, is good redefined by them so that jealousy, anger, spitefulness, and cruelty are considered good things? Only if God is the one engaging in those behaviors? Isn't that "do as I say, not as I do?" Do these people believe God is still good, and redefine what's good accordingly, or do they simply not care whether or not God is good and worship him anyway? This all trails back to summum bonum in that if you accept the idea that God is the "ultimate good" is this a statement of fact about God's goodness, based on an objective definition of goodness, or an example of despotic fiat, declaring that God is good because he gets to define good, because he's God? The distinction between good defined by description and good defined by proscription is not unfounded in theological discourse: is good whatever God says is good, or is good something objectively defined, independent of God, that God either is or isn't?

Calvinists, who are rather prevalent in the American heartland, seem to fall back on the ineffability of God and say that what he does is good regardless of its effects, we just aren't capable of understanding. So they'd likely call themselves eutheists, and define good in the proscriptive sense of "whatever God says is good", as circular as that might be. I think you're right that a Calvinist would never admit to the 'maliciously' aspect, but my father engaged one particular Calvinist and got him to describe what would be an example of God's being evil, and he described pretty much what Calvinists believe God to be. (!!!) So are they "eutheists", or "theophiles?"—Do they really believe God is good, and love and worship him because he is good, or would they love and worship him whether or not he was good, and just define good circularly? I think this is something worth covering… somewhere.

DAB's suggestion that I post an article or essay on the web, particularly on the "problem of good" that could be referenced here sounds reasonable. (Check the third paragraph from the top in this talk entry for the beginnings of that.) I have a lot of my Dad's old writings that we were planning on collating and eventually publishing at some point anyway. I still claim that Dystheism and Maltheism are two different things, in that Dystheism is simply the intellectualized notion of a belief that God is not the summum bonum as documented by the professor at UTexas, while Maltheism has historically been an actual belief system held by people and a more rigorous set of statements about the reasons for and consequences of such belief. I'm beginning to think a good starting point is to have a page devoted to Eutheism vs. dystheism, since neither concept is especially meaningful without its dialectic opposite. I started composing what I thought might go on such a page, a combination of DAB's words and some of my own. Here goes:

Eutheism is the belief that God exists and is good. It is contrasted with Dystheism which asserts that God exists but is not good. Both dystheism and eutheism are forms of theism, in that they are belief systems that assert the existence of God in some form. The opposing viewpoint to theism is of course atheism, which asserts that there is no God.
Most theistic belief systems are eutheistic, but by no means all of them. Gnosticism, Satanism, and Maltheism are examples of belief systems with dystheistic tenets. Also, many polytheistic belief systems assert the existence of a variety of deities, both good and bad. Thus the strict dichotomy of eutheism vs. dystheism as opposing beliefs is usually framed in monotheistic terms, though this need not be the case.
One of the open questions associated with eutheistic belief systems is how their adherents define what "good" means and how God manifests himself as good.
    • A eutheistic belief system that defines good in and of itself, attempting to be objective and independent, uses a descriptive definition of good, and asserts that God is good because he fits this definition in his nature and behavior.
    • A eutheistic belief system that defines good as whatever God says is good uses a proscriptive definition of good, and asserts that God is good because he is God and gets to define what good is. (For example, belief systems that recognize that God can be petty, jealous, cruel, vindictive, and destructive but say that this is OK because is serving some greater good through his actions consider themselves "eutheistic.")
Conversely, the same questions apply to dystheistic belief systems and how their adherents define what "evil" means.
The problem of evil raises questions about God's nature, asking why a benevolent omnipotent God would create a world with evil in it when he could have chosen not to do so. Atheists cite the problem of evil as a disproof of the existence of God and theism in general, but in reality it only works as a disproof of eutheism. The problem of evil does not eliminate the possibility of the existence of a malevolent God as postulated by dystheism.
Summum bonum is an extreme form of eutheistic belief, declaring that God is the center and source of all good.
An elaboration of the formal dichotomy of eutheism vs. dystheism was first proposed in an academic setting by Robert Koons at the University of Texas.

…

Craig zimmerman 23:42, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I'm going to just jump in and create a Eutheism and dystheism article as I'd suggested and see where that goes. If it seems wrong, feel free to kill it. I think it's a good direction to go in, and I hope you agree.

Craig zimmerman 00:49, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal

Having honed the Eutheism and dystheism article a bit, I would like to make the following proposal to structure things a bit better:

  1. Make the Eutheism and dystheism article the focal point for this topic. (Add appropriate redirects for "Eutheism vs. dystheism", etc.)
  2. Change redirect for Eutheism to point to Eutheism and dystheism instead of summum bonum. I think it was generally agreed that Eutheism and summum bonum are really separate things, and the dialectic article references summum bonum appropriately.
  3. Change Dystheism to be a redirect to Eutheism and dystheism. Virtually all of the content in the current dystheism article is recomposed in the dialectic article, and that which isn't can be included in a separate Maltheism article.
  4. Change Maltheism from a redirect to Dystheism into its own article, incorporating the bits from the Eutheism and dystheism article that are specifically about Maltheism. That section in there now is way too much content for a subsection in that larger article and should be in its own space. Include elements from current Dystheism article specific to Maltheism. This should only contain that which is specific to people who identify with the term 'Maltheist', including concepts unique to believers in Maltheism. This will be short and to the point and will not be a personal essay. :-)
  5. Remove most of the content in the Maltheism subsection, since it would have been moved to its own article by this point.
  6. Change content of Theophilia to reflect that this is a term coined and used by Maltheists, referencing Eutheism (which would bring readers to the dialectic page).

I think this is a reasonable solution addressing the concerns of people who have had issues with the original Maltheism article. Eutheism/dystheism focuses on the philosophical/theological concepts and elaborates on the dialectic between the two beliefs. Separate articles on eutheism and dystheism would be weaker, in my opinion, because they would need persistent cross-references all over the place in order to make it all meaningful. Each term is meaningless, or at least contentless, without its opposite, thus discussing them in one place seems more prudent. Both terms are defined very early in the article so redirects from the individual terms would be clear.

Shall I proceed?

Craig zimmerman 16:49, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I've begun tweaking the redirects.

Craig zimmerman 18:37, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

it's looking good so far! dab (ᛏ) 18:45, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)


[edit] so far

Craig, I appreciate what you have done with Eutheism and dystheism, but I am still not sure about the status of this page. It is still phrased as if there was a sizeable congregation of "maltheists". As far as I can see, there is mainly your blog, and your dad. And from this it is not clear whether it, and he, does not rather view the whole thing as a pedagogic exercise, essentially exposing the arbitrariness of religions. If that is so, I still think that "Maltheism" does deserve a section on "Dystheism" as a recent "internet" version of Dystheistic thought, but the bulk of the article must be rewritten. I.e. the evidence from the bible should be incorporated in the Dystheism article, and the essay-like style of this article must go (meaning, this article must sound less like somebody trying to convince people of his position). We cannot say "Maltheists believe", "Maltheists point out" if we cannot point to any Maltheist organization. I will not engage in edit-warring with you over this, but I do hope you possess the intellectual honesty to see my point. I am sorry. Dystheism obviously deserves a detailed article, but the "Maltheism" variety doesn't, unless we can be sure it goes beyond a one- (or two-) man-project. dab (ᛏ) 17:00, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I just realized your distinction of "Maltheism" as a stronger form of Dystheism (ie. Maltheism= God is evil while Dystheism = God is not entirely good). This is entirely idiosyncratic, and unless you can point to some dictionary of Theological terminology, it should be rejected as misleading: Maltheism still isn't a well-formed term, and the proper term, if ever applied in literature as opposed to dystheism, would more probably have been kakotheism. But we cannot just make up terms here. Googlehits are not a good measure of notability (unless they are in the 100,000s), especially if the term originates with somebody of considerable online activity. The majority of hits is still from WP mirrors. dab (ᛏ) 17:15, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

DAB, don't worry about "edit-warring", my goal is to come to mutually agreeable terms for these articles, not to fight about them. I agree wholeheartedly that the evidence from the Bible section could and should be moved into the parent dialectic article. I was reticent to do that because the particulars associated with what was said in that section do not come from Dystheism in general (which so far only has an academic existence), but from Maltheism in specific. Most of the content of the "evidence from the Bible" section does not derive from any academic discourse on Dystheism, but from what a Maltheist actually said. Since there is no "organization" associated with Maltheism, and I'm not sure we would want for there to be one, I can only speak for what I believe, and for what my dad believed, knowing that others agree in principle with some but not necessarily all of these particulars.

Thus I agree with you that we cannot meet your standard for a separate article on Maltheism—there is no organization to speak of that would merit an encyclopedic entry. (I already compared this to the notion of an "organization" of Marranos during the Spanish Inquisition, pointing out that even though one more than likely did not exist that wouldn't preempt a valid entry for Marranos in an encyclopedia, but I think my point was misinterpreted.)

Therefore, in the interest of coming together on this, I agree that the evidence from the Bible points should be moved into the master dialectic article. I would not see a problem with removing the Maltheism article entirely, if you really think that's the correct path, leaving just a section in the master article. But I agree that as long as we do not meet your standard, devoting an article of any significant length to Maltheism would conflict with your purposes. A section on Maltheism as it exists in the master article sounds fine. Realize that, originally, I had all those points about Maltheism now in the Maltheism article included in the Maltheism section of the master article, but I decided that was clearly not the right thing to do. I'm sure you would concur. :-)

Is the current content of the Eutheism and dystheism article, assuming we include the Bible points and possibly the popular culture stub section into it, otherwise reasonable? Craig zimmerman 22:36, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

yes, I do have the impression that you are genuinely trying to be fair. And I don't want to nitpick about the wording etc. too much. In my opinion, the "evidence of the bible" would belong under dystheism, because these things have been pointed out as problematic for a long time, without necessarily anybody actually converting to 'maltheism' because of them. Their traditional interpretation in theology should be given, together with 'maltheist' criticism, at least. That's all very well. Maybe, if your dad really was serious about being a 'maltheist', this article should revolve around his views, rather than anonymous "maltheists' views"? Did he ever publish his views in some way? Or else it can be about your blog, and similar sites (we do have articles about individual internet sites)? I just insist that we need some historical depth here. Etymology. Look at Atheism: There were clear examples of atheism in Ancient Greece, but there was no Greek word atheismos. This was coined around 1700. It is important to have an idea of the relation of the terminology with the actual ideas. Dystheist ideas have been around forever, as you say, in Gnosticism, in Satanism, etc. Dystheism must be a recent term (19th century?). Malteism must be a very recent term (your dad's?). If your dad invented the word, you'll need to say that your dad invented the word, and the article would be about his ideas, and how they evolved since, and how they tie in with earlier thinkers. dab (ᛏ) 08:30, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)


Thanks, DAB. A few points about your comments:

  1. We're in complete agreement about moving the "evidence from the Bible" section over to the Eutheism and dystheism article. I had the same thought while piecing those parts together, that that's where it belonged, but I was focusing on the Maltheism article at that time.
  2. I would venture that no one "converted to Maltheism" (or Dystheism) because of any of the points you see here, or in Koons' essay, or anywhere else. My point has been that very few people in the world identify overtly as being a Maltheist or Dystheist by name, likewise few people would describe their process of coming into such belief as a "conversion" to anything in particular. What does this say about the number of people who hold or have considered such beliefs? Does the lack of a formal religious belief system as a "conversion destination" change how the topic should be covered?
  3. You say "Dystheism must be a recent term (19th century?)", but the only representation of that term we've seen is from 1998. Maltheism definitely dates back to the early 1980s, but that's hardly ancient history either, I would agree. They both then qualify as "very recent terms". It seems to me (and to others) that the phenomenon has been "around forever" as you say, but has never been instantiated with a name—except perhaps the generic "heresy" and "blasphemy" labelings from God worshipers. We can't have an encyclopedic entry for something that doesn't have a name, can we? The act of naming something like this often helps increase focus on it for purposes of study and analysis. It's a question of what we name and how we name it. An entry defining this sort of belief is highly unlikely to convert anyone to anything (not that that would be its purpose in any case), but it is much more likely to give people who already happen to hold such beliefs a point of focus and a name to apply to those beliefs. No, that's not the "job" of an encyclopedia, but it's often the end result of this kind of intellectual inquiry—giving a name to the unnamed.
  4. Regarding Maltheism in particular, my Dad may indeed have been the one who coined that term, but I've wanted to make this not about individual ego but about the universality of the belief. If you like, we could make the Eutheism and dystheism entry have that focus, and if we agree that Maltheism is worthy of its own article, I could attribute what I know to be my Dad's original writing to him.

For now, I can take the actions we've discussed here, moving the Bible section over, and changing the "flavor" of the Maltheism entry according to what we've been saying. If we can't work things out concerning that entry, then we can agree to let it go away, leaving a brief mention in the master entry. I hope we are on the same page concerning the Eutheism and dystheism entry.

By the way, I am thinking that better crosslinking for the Eutheism and dystheism entry is in order. Linking the sections describing how good is defined to divine command theory and the Euthyphro Dilemma would be useful. At the same time, a link from the mention of "the common belief that what we worship is given spiritual substance through the act of worship" and … whatever the name is for that belief! (Have I just come up with a great example of my concept of naming the unnamed, or am I simply too dense, too forgetful, or too clueless to recognize the term associated with this?) Craig zimmerman 14:55, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

you may be looking for (some uses of the term) fideism. you are right that I should stop giving you a hard time over the term "maltheism" until I have researched the history and official status of the term "dystheism" (which I am confident is some 100 years old). I will be back after I did that ;o) dab (ᛏ) 09:24, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Not sure if fideism is quite right, but I'll keep looking, this can't be a totally original notion. Right now, I don't like at all what I stuck in their for divine command theory/Euthyphro Dilemma within the definition of good section, so that will be tweaked for sure. It's a bit rambling and not very cohesive as it is now. Craig zimmerman 19:44, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Dbachmann is a very nice, accomodating, guy, in my experience. And it looks like Craig is a sincere person; so I think maybe dab has maybe been a bit too accomodating with this article. For one thing it it sure looks like something went wrong with all the redirecting. Dystheism is redirected to Eutheism and dystheism, but Talk:Dystheism is redirected here. That just seems weird. But, more importantly, the concerns voiced above by dab and others about this article are valid, it seems to me. I ask again: why does this article exist? Who are the maltheists? What notability does it have apart from being a near-synonym for dystheism used on a few online discussion forums. Name one maltheist. When and where was the term introduced, and by whom? I just don't think an article that only states "Maltheists say this; maltheists say that" can ever be good. Who are the maltheists; and who are the authorities on what the maltheists say? I mistrust an article where the person writing it (and his Dad) seems to be the only authority on the subject. The Wikipedia isn't the place for the manifestos of new religions, even if there are some Internet discussion groups. How can the information in this article be verified? Do we have only primary sources and are those primary sources the archives of various on-line forums? What secondary sources exist on this. For me, the supposed distinction between "God is not good" and "God is evil" isn't significant enough to warrant a separate article from dystheism, and this article ought to be deleted and redirected to Eutheism and Dystheism, in my opinion, with that article perhaps somewhat expanded a little to reflect maltheist views, assuming someone can find a notable maltheist to quote. --BM 21:04, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

For that matter, it doesn't look like dystheism has much of a pedigree either. --BM 21:22, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I'm completely confused. We have the Maltheism article, but Talk:Maltheism is redirected to Talk:Dystheism, and the former content of Talk:Maltheism has been moved to Talk:Dystheism. There doesn't seem to be any prior Talk:Dystheism history, of if there was, I don't know where it went to. But the Dystheism article itself seems to be redirected to Eutheism and dystheism. I hope I am not being presumptious, but I am going to presume that this situation was a slip of the fingers, and fix it. --BM 21:37, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

OK, I need help from an administrator, I think. I'm afraid of losing the histories. It seems like the history of Talk:Maltheism is over on Talk:Dystheism, and I have no idea where the original history of Talk:Dystheism is, if there was one before Talk:Maltheism was redirected there. --BM 21:44, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

BM - I thought I had made clear that if a separate Maltheism article was deemed unwarranted then the one that's there should go away. My goal is not to fight over territory and naming rights but to present information coherently. Per DAB's suggestion, I moved most of the relevant pieces of the old Maltheism article out and over to the Dystheism article DAB had put together. I am almost positive we have not been losing any histories: Talk:Maltheism existed and became Talk:Dystheism when Dab renamed the main page itself. There was never a talk page for Eutheism (or for Eutheism and dystheism), and there has been no new talk page for Maltheism. I can assure you there's been no history loss only because I've been keeping my eye on the related pages for a while now. Just to reiterate what I did:
  1. Modified the article DAB was working on to make it a single article about eutheism and dystheism as a dialectic.
  2. Changed the redirect for Eutheism from going to summum bonum (there was agreement that eutheism and summum bonum were not the same thing) to point to this larger article.
  3. Made Dystheism a redirect to the larger article
  4. Made Maltheism its own article again. (That's probably where the talk page link breakage happened. I apologize if I'm the cause of that.) Again, if what's there is unsatisfactory, then please remove it.
DAB said he would be looking into historical references to the name "dystheism", but I'm wondering whether it has as paltry a formal history as the term "Maltheism". Clearly the phenomenon has existed historically, without necessarily having a name. Does it need to have had a name for a certain number of years to be represented?
OK, so Robert Koons and my Dad finally gave it a name (or two) in only recent memory. I can understand if you are saying that Maltheism in particular is "just the rantings of one person" and unworthy of inclusion as such. Don't worry, I don't take offense. I wanted not to make any discussion of Maltheism into an ego thing where I talked about "how Paul Zimmerman said this, that, and the other thing." It's not about my or my Dad's personal ego, and if the only way to make Maltheism concrete is to make it that way then I will agree with you that we'd be better off without an article specifically on Maltheism.
But I think the topic in itself is worthy of inclusion, historically speaking. Is there disagreement on that? My framing of the article in dialectic form came about because, as I was trying to figure out what would go in individual articles on eutheism and dystheism, I noticed constant crosslinking was occurring in my outline, which would have made individual articles unreadable. Talking about eutheism in and of itself would either be pretty boring or a rehash of various other religion entries. Talking about dystheism in and of itself makes little sense without contrasting it to eutheism. Hence, my approach.
As I said in an earlier note, sometimes an endeavor such as this gives a name to the unnamed. I hope that some sort of article still emerges on this topic and survives. Craig zimmerman 00:44, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
OK, well I'm glad no histories have been lost. But it doesn't make sense for Talk:Maltheism to redirect to Talk:Dystheism, if the Maltheism article still exists, and especially not if the Dystheism article is itself redirecting to yet a third article, Eutheism and dystheism. All that is just confusing. If article X exists, the convention is that its Talk page is at Talk:X. The way it is now, if you go to Maltheism and click on the "Discussion" tab, you find yourself on Talk::Dystheism; then if you click on the "Article" tab, you are not back on the Maltheism article, as you would expect, but on the "Eutheism and dystheism" article, and if you click on that Discussion tab, you are now on "Talk:Eutheism and dystheism". I can't put this right because I'm not an administrator, but dab is, and I hope he will help sort this out.
As for the articles themselves, it doesn't make sense to me for Maltheism to be separate from "Eutheism and dystheism". And I have my doubts as to whether "Eutheism and dystheism" should even exist. What are your sources for the information in these articles? It bothers me a lot that in these articles not a single eutheist, dystheist, or maltheist is named or quoted. Who are all these people having debates with each other? When did these debates take place, and where? Where are they documented, so that I can check whether the article is correctly representing the various views? Who advocates these positions? Where can I find their writings? I don't mean to be rude, but in the previous discussion, you've cited your father a few times as the source of your information. Who is your father, in what way is he notable, and what makes him an authority? Are his lectures or other writings on this topic publicly available? Where can I find commentary on any of these positions by recognized scholars? Information in the Wikipedia is supposed to be based on public sources, ideally secondary sources, and not be original research, or original reporting. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a repository for essays on interesting ides that people have. --BM 01:31, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

BM - Doing an explicit edit of Talk:Maltheism (without redirects) shows that there is a redirect in that page to this one (Talk:Dystheism). That can easily be changed, I imagine, but you're right that an administrator should probably be the one to do this. Perhaps it's better to move this entire discussion to Talk:Eutheism_and_dystheism. (Just an idea.)

As for your comment regarding "not a single eutheist, dystheist, or maltheist":

  1. Robert Koons employed the terms eutheist and dystheist in his curriculum to describe opposing viewpoints about God, transcending the natural assumption that eutheism was a "default" for any and all beliefs about God. These terms are his and DAB saw his essay as a reasonable place to start. I would agree, and I think so far others here have agreed.
  2. The answer to the question of "who advocates eutheism" would be the majority of people in the world who worship a God they consider to be good. I think there are a lot of them. :-) Eutheism comprises the vast majority of religious beliefs in the world, as the majority of such beliefs assert the existence of a God who is good and more often that not a command to worship him. The answer to the question of "who advocates dystheism" (or who has put forth dystheist notions in their work) would not be a reference to some organized group. It does, however, include a list of people, virtually all referenced in some form in the larger article, ranging from Camus, Nietzsche, Wiesel, Blake, and Milton, to George Carlin and Woody Allen. Dystheistic thought is not unknown and the contention is that it's not isolated individual thought. It has a name given to it in an academic context—not that that necessarily legitimizes anything, but I think this is a legitimate enough topic to be given coverage.

I would concur with you, given your statements about original research, that given the lack of published work on the subject of Maltheism per se, including a Maltheism article here would be wrong. Again, someone take the initiative then to delete it. My father was just someone who wrote online and in local articles on this subject. He may have been the one who coined the word Maltheism, we never knew for sure. This is not about "immortalizing" my Dad's work on the pages of Wikipedia. It's about giving due coverage to the topic. I hope that's what the Eutheism and dystheism article achieves. Craig zimmerman 17:54, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I guess in the case of eutheism and dystheism, the more relevant question is not who advocates them, but rather who uses the terms. Also, I followed the link to Koons lecture, and in it dystheism and eutheism are introduced basically as footnotes in a lecture about the problem of evil, rather than full-blown positions. And, you know, in my opinion there are already several more articles than necessary on the problem of evil, which I had been hoping to merge one day. Perhaps Koons' point (and terms) should simply be added to one or more of those articles. --BM 18:10, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

BM - You say the relevant question is "who uses the terms." My answer is that almost nobody uses the terms because almost nobody knows there are any. The belief that God exists and is evil clearly exists, given the scattering of literary and philosophical voices who have considered the notion and said something on the subject, but barely has a name, meaning that the subject is going to be underdiscussed because nobody knows what to call it, because there are no encyclopedic references to it. Thus, no one uses any "term" for it because no one knows there are any terms for it because there are few if any references to such terms. This is the purpose of a reference source—to provide this sort of information, even if only "what's that thing called?"
While I agree that the problem of evil entry has grown like a hydra out of proportion, I would disagree that this subject can all be rolled into a single "problem of evil" entry. The problem of evil is the question that forms the basis of a need for theodicy, an explanation of why a benevolent omnipotent God would create evil, period. The notions of eutheism vs. dystheism include reference to the problem of evil but not just to that—the issues of alleged inconsistencies in the Bible and divine command theory also play a part. Conversely, the problem of evil concerns itself with eutheistic and dystheistic conceptions of God, but also comes back to issues like free will, the discipline of theodicy, etc.

I decided to rename the "Eutheism and dystheism" page to "Eutheism, dystheism, and maltheism", and to merge the content of this page there. In my mind, that is just a temporary, because the eventual place for all of this material, in my opinion, should be a single article on The problem of evil. --BM 21:41, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree, but my disagreement has nothing to do with dystheism or maltheism: more along the lines that the subject of the tentacles to the problem of evil article—"free will and the problem of evil", "theodicy" et al—are too much to squeeze into one space, for reasons already mentioned.
And thanks for cleaning up the talk pointers, I thought you were going to ask an administrator to do this but it looks like you put things in order. Craig zimmerman 23:56, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] well?

after almost two years, we still have any evidence whatsoever that the term refers to more than an online essay, and that the term is in any way well-defined as distinct from dystheism. the "beliefnet introduction" is a user comment on their discussion board (and it is my distinct impression that you are linking to your own words, Craig)! If no sources and no respectable evidence is brought forward, I will finally redirect this to dystheism, it simply will not do to use Wikipedia as a host for personal essays on topics that already have perfectly good articles. dab (ᛏ) 12:47, 15 September 2006 (UTC)