Talk:Malcolm X

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 This is not a forum for general discussion of Malcolm X.
Any such messages will be deleted. Please limit discussion to improvement of the article.

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Malcolm X article.
Article policies
Good article Malcolm X was one of the History good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Archive
Archives

- Archive of Undated and dated 2005 and Prior Subjects
- Archive of Subjects dated 2006
- Archive of Subjects dated 2007


Contents

[edit] Umrah or Hajj?

Was Malcolm's Mecca experience a Hajj or an Umrah? (In other words, did it take place during Dhu Al-Hijjah, or some other time of year?) An anon altered the Umrah reference to Hajj, but I'm not sure which is correct. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 02:34, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)


Well... he returned home w/ the title "El Hajj" so I'm pretty sure it was the Hajj and not the Umrah.

I am asking teh same question did he do the hajj or the umrah this information needs to be checked because hajj is hajj and umrah is umrah and we need accuracy. the title could be symbolic and the title is not a religious one so it has no factual relevance.--HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 07:06, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Doesnt one have to be a muslim to perform hajj in the first place? i dont understand how he made hajj BEFORE he became a muslim. d riffat

From his autobiography (p. 338, in the chapter "Mecca"): "I only knew what I had left in America, and how it had contrasted with what I had found in the Muslim world. About twenty of us Muslims who had finished the Hajj were sitting in a huge tent on Mount Arafat. As a Muslim from America, I was the center of attention. They asked me what about the Hajj had impressed me the most. One of the several who spoke English asked; they translated my answers for the others. My answer to that question was not the one they expected, but it drove home my point." He was a muslim before the hajj, but the experience changed a lot of his ways of thinking about islam (and other things). He describes being interviewed before begin allowed to enter mecca: "I...learned that the Hajj Committee Court had been notified about my case, and that in the morning I should be there. And I was. The Judge was Shiekh Muhammad Harkon. ... He not only recognized me as a true Muslim, but he gave me two books...He recorded my name in the Holy Register of true Muslims." (autobiography, p. 335) Doctormatt 19:18, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

If he was on Arafat during that time, it must of been Hajj, you don't go there for Umrah. Im pretty sure anyway. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.6.37.146 (talk) 05:59, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm no expert on Islam nor Malcolm X, however: 1) the usage of El-Hajj to his name would denote that he had completed the Hajj. No? I don't think one could add the title to his name if one had not completed the pilgrimage, nor did anything ever indicate that this was an insincere man (even if one disagreed with his politics or religion); 2) If the event was as shown in documentary footage, by the numbers of people, it would appear to me to be the annual event, not Umrah, which can be performed at any time of the year and is known as a "lesser" pilgrimage. I would suspect that the numbers would not be the same as those drawn to the Hajj which even makes the U.S. nightly news when the event takes place.

And that leads to the last point -- 3) It might be simple thing for someone to find the dates of the Hajj pilgrimage for 1964 - was it April? I could not find it, but since it's an annual event, there must be a method or calendar as to when the event occurs. For example, in 2005 it was in January.

Something else -- Malcolm X said somewhere that he had to be interviewed to gain access to Saudi Arabia for the purposes of the Hajj. I don't recall where I saw it. This might be related to his 20 hour detention upon entering Saudi Arabia. Given the sheer numbers, it might be that some people (Westerners particularly) might be interviewed for their sincerity and practice of Islam. I can see the Saudi officials having to keep out the gawkers, tourists and sightseers at this important event. Those with no religious business would be taking up time and space for something that the Islamic religion denotes as extremely important to be satisfied correctly, and is not on the tourist guide package. So, without knowing the Islamic calendar, I would say that it was the Hajj. The evidence (for me) seems to point to it being the Hajj.

Legaleze 74.65.216.249 (talk) 00:30, 28 April 2008 (UTC)74.65.216.249 (talk) 23:51, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sexuality

There's an article in The Guardian website giving a case that Malcolm X may have been gay or bisexual. Check it out. [1]. Should this theory be included in the article? Stancel Spencer 02:54, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

The Guardian piece is based entirely on the writings of Bruce Perry, whose book I have read. He devotes a few pages to the possibility. The best that can be said is that perhaps, when he was a young hustler in Boston and New York, Malcolm got involved with a couple of guys for money. The evidence is terribly weak. I do not incline to mention it at all. Uucp 04:01, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I remember reading a book years ago by an old acquaintance/friend of Malcolm X's--can't recall his name; may have been Berry--in which the author asserts that Malcolm X was involved with transvestites. I can't recall whether it was for money or not, but I do remember that this guy said that Malcolm had told him excitedly "They [perform oral sex]!" Even if this is true, I don't think this necessarily means all that much. Just wanted to throw that out there

Malcolm X is definately not 'gay'. Such a rumor about a strong black leader that spoke of freedom had a wife, didn't he? And children?didn't he have children?And for that article,i will have nothing to do with it. as far as i'm concerned, the author resulted to racism, and tried to attack the black community, based on his ridiculous story. I will leave it at that. --Black and Proud 04:34, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

You can get married and have kids while being gay. It was common to have closeted homosexuals marry people of the opposite sex before the 1990s, and even have sex, though they probably didn't enjoy it. And you can be strong while being gay, too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.66.161.156 (talk) 01:46, February 28, 2007
1) The last comment is right on all counts. Being married and having children, especially in the past, is/was no indication of one's sexual orientation. And being gay doesn't mean that one can't be a "strong Black leader." Read about Bayard Rustin or Barbara Jordan.
2) I don't think anybody has suggested that Malcolm X was gay. Perry's biography — which was based on hundreds of interviews with people who knew Malcolm during different periods of his life — alleges that Malcolm engaged in sex with other men when he was a young man. According to the Kinsey Report, that was true of 37% of the men in the study.
3) Perry's book has been criticized for its sensationalism. For example, more than one page is spent discussing the color of Malcolm's eyes (!). No biographer beside Perry has written about these alleged sexual encounters. On the other hand, because of his extensive interviews, Perry may have had the best primary sources of any of Malcolm's biographers.
4) Most importantly, Malcolm's sexual activity as a young man has no bearing on why he is notable or why he continues, more than 40 years after his death, to be an important figure in America. He is not known for his sexuality or his views on sexuality, and I think that adding these allegations has no value other than titillation. — Malik Shabazz | Talk 19:30, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Surely bisexual, on the evidence. Doesn't need wider coverage than it already has in the article but appropriate project coverage is warranted.SupaPlaya —Preceding comment was added at 11:39, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Experimentation does not equal bisexuality. 130.88.205.41 (talk) 23:47, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
Why don't you write that? Are you homofobic? Please, read Dr. Marc Lamont Hill s page, about Bruce Perry’s 1991 biography on Malcolm X. Malcom was bisexual/gay.

http://www.marclamonthill.com/mlhblog/?p=424 Jackblues 02.00, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Malcom X was not homosexual by any means and Peter has no evidence. and he is the only biographer out of many who insists this. this is hearsay and not the truth and i think this is very damaging to his image. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shinelikethesun2000 (talk • contribs) 22:20, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

You could cut the homophobia in here with a knife. 142.26.118.34 (talk) 21:47, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] MALCOM X

IM doing a report on Malcom X —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.66.200.64 (talk) 22:01, 21 February 2007 (UTC).

Good for you...--Jayson Virissimo 21:26, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I am also!

Me too! but really who cares. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.6.37.146 (talk) 06:03, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Photograph / 'By Any Means Necessary'

The caption by the photograph of Malcolm X with an M1 simply says that he's looking out a window and that this image is often on t-shirts with the quotation "by any means necessary." While both of these are true statements, it is important to note that the photograph was taken when Malcolm was guarding his family following a series of death threats. The juxtaposition of this picture with "by any means necessary" has fueled the myth that Malcolm X advocated violent revolution -- this is simply not the case. The quotation was from a speech in which Malcolm X told listeners we must "liberate our minds by any means necessary." This statement had nothing to do with the image of him holding an M1. The two events have only been joined in the pop culture. Since the page is protected, will an admin please edit this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.39.131.88 (talk) 17:47, May 20, 2007

I would argue that Malcolm X did advocate violent revolution if necessary. Because he said "Our objective is complete freedom, justice and equality by any means necessary." That certainly sounds like he advocates using violence to attain those things since he uses the phrase "by any means necessary". He also said in the "Ballot or the Bullet" that there is NO non-violent revolution, that there is no revolution where you love the enemy. If he advocated revolution, which I think everyone would agree he did, then he didn't believe in the idea of non-violence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Andiburns (talk • contribs) 12:08, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

A perfect example of how the press and others have skewed anything to do with Malcolm X. Yes, the photo with the gun has no relation to the "by any means necessary" speech, but as long as you put them together you had double the man to fear. His words could mean many things. The facts seems to bear out that they meant something more to him. Add a gun and he's coming to your house and take all your stuff away too. Even today there are still those who refuse to allow this man to be understood. I blame the press for this all the way back to 1964 and continuing. They simply could not accurately report on this man so much so that for each person who has ever heard his name, there's probably some new and awful things being attributed to him still. I think he was one of, and still is, the most misunderstood person thanks to inaccurate and false reporting and its progeny -- things like those t-shirts which come out of fear and inaccurate reporting of the facts.

And, no, I disagree that Malcolm advocated violent revolution. Originally, he was a separatist. It was a moment in time. Second, he was not associated with any violence. All the violence was perpetrated upon him and his family. He did, however, advocate to meet violence with violence. A normal human reaction given where he'd been. But, he said he would treat a non-violent racist with non-violence. I'm not even certain of the term "revolution." Separation does not mean revolution. Nor does Black pride mean revolution. Black ownership. Black responsibility. Keeping things within the community. None of this means violence or revolution to me.

One must remember that he was constantly evolving. He was stopped before he could "become." Legaleze74.65.216.249 (talk) 01:42, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Was Malcolm X REALLY a muslim?

I mean would Macolm X have preferred to live in a state ruled by shariah law like Saudi-Arabia or Iran instead of the U.S.? Or was Macolm X's confession to Islam a mere protest against the U.S.-society mainstream? After all, Malcolm X considered himself to be a fighter for human rights, and does the idea of human rights, e.g. freedom of speech, freedom to changen one's religion, etc. really mix with Islam? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.173.225.19 (talk) 07:35, December 7, 2007

You idiot. He was a Muslim and your stereotype is just mediocre. You don't even know the difference between Islam and extremeism. They are two separate culture's.

He converted to the Muslim faith because he found inner peace. LOOK UP TRUE ISLAM.


I agree he was obviously a Muslim, but was he really Sunni? It says that at the top of the page on the article, but does anyone have a reliable source for that? I didn't think he identified with any particular brach of Islam. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Andiburns (talk • contribs) 20:32, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Well i don't know about that, I have never read or heard him say that his a sunni muslim. However that might be the things people think nowadays, just to be able to categorize him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.249.247.30 (talk) 13:57, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

I think a lot of people misunderstand Islam...yes, he was a Muslim in my opinion and yes, freedom of speech, human rights, etc. are an integral part of Islam. What most people confuse is the extreme culture of middle eastern areas as the character Islam. Look at American Muslims-many of them are NOT extremists. All that is displayed on TV and in the media are the extremists Muslims because that obviously makes for better "News." All the war and strife that is occurring in the middle east is because of the diluted message of Islam. Please don't confuse the culture of middle eastern countries as Islam.

"You idiot. He was a Muslim and your stereotype is just mediocre. You don't even know the difference between Islam and extremeism. They are two separate culture's."

That kind of negative attitude is hardly helping the situation....It is because of coarse-toned folk like you that people are misinterpreting Islam.

Please calm down. Personal attacks aren't very useful in resolving disputes. Nousernamesleftcopper, not wood 21:53, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

So does anyone have the info to verify if Malcolm was Sunni? I understand he was a Muslim, but I didn't know what branch. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.249.65.166 (talk) 02:59, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't recall that any branch was mentioned after his break with NOI. This seems to be a post-2001 question being asked of 1964. It's only now where the distinction has taken on newsworthy attentions that all the differences between Sunni and Shi'a (and more) seem more important. There's probably a simple answer out there. Legaleze74.65.216.249 (talk) 01:18, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Do we have to add that Muhammad Ali was a Sunni? Does Malcolm X or Muhammad Ali identify(ied) themselves with any of the branches? If yes, then it can be encyclopedic. Many Muslim people don't embrace the idea that they have to be related to a branch. In another note, do you have to add that Averroes was living in an open Muslim society where 'Sunni' and 'Shite' had no much meaning? -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 00:58, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Why were there tensions between Malcolm X and the Nation of Islam

I can't find them. 78.144.29.151 (talk) 18:40, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

It says in the article
“ Writing after his break from the Nation of Islam, Malcolm said in the Autobiography that one reason for the separation was growing tension between him and Elijah Muhammad that arose from Malcolm's dismay at rumors of Muhammad's extramarital affairs with young secretaries. These rumors troubled Malcolm because the Nation of Islam condemns adultery. At first Malcolm brushed these rumors aside. Later, he spoke with Elijah Muhammad's son and the women making the accusations and he came to believe them. According to the Autobiography, in 1963 Elijah Muhammad confirmed the rumors to Malcolm. Muhammad justified his actions by saying they followed a pattern established by Biblical prophets. ”

Does that answer your question? Nousernamesleftcopper, not wood 03:34, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Further reading

The Further reading section is just too long. Someone who knows better, please, make it shorter. --Tone 21:27, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

What's wrong with having a long one if it contributes to the article? Nousernamesleftcopper, not wood 04:02, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Because Wikipedia style disapproves of it What Wikipedia is Not —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.170.31.68 (talk) 21:57, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] X or Shabazz?

Quote: Soon after their meeting (with Elijah Muhammad), he (Malcolm) changed his surname to "X". ... I very much doubt whether he legally changed it to X, so "adopted the monicker" might be more appropriate.
The article then goes on to say that according to a FBI file Malcolm used the alias "Malachi Shabazz". Next it states: They (Malcolm and Betty) had six daughters, all of whom carried the family name of Shabazz.
So it seems that Malcolm at some point started using the monicker "X" and then changed his surname from "Little" to "Shabazz". When did he do so? I'd much appreciate it if someone could clear this up, thanks. Maikel (talk) 18:59, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

When Robert Zimmerman changed his name to Bob Dylan, he didn't legally change it either. Malcolm never "adopted the monicker" X, he changed his name to Malcolm X. He later changed his name to Malik Shabazz; I'm not sure that he filed any legal paperwork for that name change either.
(I'm not a lawyer, but my lawyer friends have told me that in the United States, changing one's name in most cases is simply a matter of using a new name. I've never heard of anybody who's changed his or her name upon marriage or divorce filing court documents to legally change his or her name.)
I don't have my copy of Malcolm X's FBI file handy (no, I'm not being facetious; it was edited by Clayborne Carson and published in book form), so I'm not sure of the date of their first "Malachi Shabazz" letter. (If you're motivated, you can look here.)
Malcolm started using the name Malik Shabazz (not Malachi) in early 1964 after he left the Nation of Islam. While he was an NoI member, he was always known publicly as Malcolm X.
The article is misleading when it says that Malcolm's daughters "all ... carried the family name of Shabazz." While their parents were Malcolm X and Betty X, they were known as Attallah X, Qubilah X, etc. After Malcolm X and Betty X took the names Malik Shabazz and Betty Shabazz, their daughters also took the last name Shabazz. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 01:44, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Break from NOI

Quote: Malcolm publicly announced his break from the Nation of Islam on March 8, 1964.
What reasons did he give at that time? Thanks. Maikel (talk) 20:06, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

He still supported Black nationalism, but he felt the NoI was too rigid and dogmatic and it would never get its message to most African-Americans. Instead, he was starting his own organization, which would work with other civil rights groups (something the NoI had always opposed). Here's a link to The New York Times article the day after his press conference. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 01:57, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

When first interviewed, he said it was the gag that was imposed upon him by NOI after his words about the Kennedy assassination -- the NOI said he could not publicly speak or preach for 90 days. He added that he also felt that it was important to work with other groups and he wanted to be less isolationist. However, at the interview where he had finally satisfied the 90 days, but the NOI had extended it, he reiterated those two reasons and then added the third -- that the Elijah Mohammad had 8 children by 6 women. I've seen the interview. He gave the impression that he had held back but was now ready to disclose this last reason. Legaleze74.65.221.25 (talk) 00:21, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Kwangming

Quote: "Kwangming, published in Beijing, bluntly stated that "Malcolm was murdered because he fought for freedom and equal rights."[1]"
Is this a sufficiently notable newspaper? Or is this just a Red Chinese newspaper badmouthing the "decadent capitalist West"? Maikel (talk) 12:24, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] ThreeQuotesThatCanBeAdded

I found two quotes, maybe some one can add them in some where.

1. "Human right are something you were born with. Human rights are your God-given rights. Human rights are the rights that are recognized by all nations of this earth."

2. "Power in defense of freedom is greater than power in behalf of tyranny and oppression, because power, real power, coms from our conviction which produces action, uncompromising action."

3. "When a person places the proper value on freedom, there is nothing under the sun that he will not do to acquire that freedom. Whenever you hear a man saying he wants freedom, but in the next breath he is going to tell you what he won't do to get it, or what he doesn't believe in doing in order to get it, he doesn't believe in freedom. A man who believes in freedom will do anything under the sun to acquire . . . or preserve his freedom."

Heres another one, its very funny, comes from his autobiography. This is written where hes about to marry Betty Shabazz in the book. "All of that Hollywood stuff! Like these women wanting men to pick them up and carry them across thresholds and some of them weigh more than you do. I don’t know how many marriages are caused by these movie and television-addicted women expecting some bouquets and kissing and hugging and being swept out like Cinderella for dinner and dancing – then getting mad when a poor, scraggly husband comes in tired and sweaty from working like a dog all day, looking for some food." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.249.242.175 (talk) 08:25, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Ocianecanadas (talk) 19:56, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

"Quote" sections are generally frowned upon. wikiquote:Malcolm X might be the appropriate place for them. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 20:38, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Good article reassessment

This article was nominated for good article reassessment to determine whether or not it met the good article criteria and so can be listed as a good article. The article was delisted. Please see the archived discussion for further information.

Question: was it considered whether to simply revert to the GA-approved version rather than delisting? I have not compared them in detail, wondering if the editors who !voted to delist considered this option. -Pete (talk) 19:06, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
OK never mind. Almost no inline citations, far less than present version. Clearly not up to present GA standards. Also utterly different from today's versions. -Pete (talk) 02:13, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "He referred to whites as "devils"[...]"

"He referred to whites as "devils" who had been created in a misguided breeding program by a black scientist, and predicted the inevitable (and imminent) return of blacks to their natural place at the top of the social order."

Shouldn't this be supported by some referrences? I don't dispute the fact that he didn't say those things, I'm just saying that claims like this should have some backup (quotes, speeches, writings). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.137.12.37 (talk) 02:04, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

There is an issue with the lack of references. If you can help out, please do! Thanks, PeterSymonds | talk 19:58, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Well there is sources from his autobiograpghy about this subject. However that was during his time with the NOI, later after he went to mecca, he "realized" that blacks, whites and any other race CAN togheter coexist, however only under the right religion > Islam. That is about xacly what he says only in my own words. From the book "Malcolm X autobiography - by Alex Haley"

[edit] Heroin addiction?

There's no mention of his Heroin addiction, even the Addiction article mentions it. 67.5.159.39 (talk) 03:10, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

See Malcolm_X#Young_adult_years:

After some time in Harlem, he became involved in drug dealing, gambling, racketeering, robbery and steering prostitutes. During this time, his friends and acquaintances called him "Detroit Red".

I think this is mention enough of his use of drugs. Yahel Guhan 04:51, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
You claim he had a heroin addiction. If you want to include it in the article, please fine a valid and reliable reference to support it please. Ijanderson977 (talk) 18:10, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Malcolm lived in Mason, MI not Lansing, MI

I've read this in several places. Malcolm Little lived in Mason, MI which is about 14 miles south of Lansing MI. I realize this is a minor point to those people who do not live in Michigan but it is not the same as living in the City of Lansing. They called him Detroit Red because it is close to Lansing? Detroit is 90 miles from the city of Lansing. Anyway my point is the location where Malcolm Little lived while in Michigan is Mason, MI.

Signed Saskegard 4-11-08 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Saskegard (talk • contribs) 17:06, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

At different times in his life, Malcolm lived in different parts of Michigan. According to the Autobiography, the Littles lived "in the country" two miles outside East Lansing and 12 miles from Mason at the time of Malcolm's father's death. When he was 13, Malcolm was sent to a detention home in Mason, where he completed his education. That's basically what the article says:
The 1930 U.S. Census showed him living ... in the low-income Urbandale neighborhood in Lansing Township, between Lansing and East Lansing. Later, when he was in high school, Malcolm Little lived in Mason, an almost all-white small town 12 miles (19 km) to the south.
As a young man, Malcolm lived in Inkster and other towns near Detroit. He was called Detroit Red when he moved to New York because he had come most recently from the Detroit area, not because he grew up in the Lansing area. Hope that helps. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 18:42, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Archiving older messages

In the interest of shortening this very long Talk page, I've archived messages that haven't had any responses since 2007. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 22:40, 25 April 2008 (UTC)