Talk:Malayali/Archive 1

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents

Requesting Mediation from Mediation Cabal

A request has been made of the Mediation Cabal for mediation on this page.

Please do not remove this notice until the issue is resolved. Preloaded case page

--vi5in[talk] 18:01, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Malayalee userboxes

Hello,

Here are a few Malayalee userboxes for people to use. Wiki Raja 12:23, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

/* Malayali- An Overview */

This part of the Malayali article is 100% conjecture. They are positive statements and as a Malayali, I'll take them---But, let's make it more factual rather than opinionated --144.15.255.227 01:29, 6 May 2007 (UTC)


New Topics

I am going to add two more topics soon.Right now iam on a research in field malayalee.


ARUNKUMAR P.R 07:48, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Templates

I would suggest merging templates "Topics related to Kerala" and "State of Kerala" in order to reduce the need for using both the templates in articles related to Kerala. Probably moving content from "Topics related to Kerala" to "State of Kerala" would do. With that we have to use only one template in articles better than inserting two templates in all articles. Gnanapiti 14:47, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Muslims and Christians

I do doubt the use of Mappila and Nasrani is not proper here in full sense. Since not all muslims are mappilas even in malabar. Same with nasrani. we can better use Muslims and Christians itself. comment please Daya Anjali (talk / contribs) 11:01, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with that. Mappilas and Nasranis are specific communities in their own right and it wouldn't be right to use those terms to describe all Muslims or Christians. --vi5in[talk] 19:33, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Discussion about Origin of Malayalam and Nair Customs

First, "aali" and "malai" are both obviously Tamil. Malayalam itself evolved from Tamil. This is not in dispute. Secondly, Marumakkathayyam and Kalaripayattu were Nair traditions before being absorbed by other communities. Kurups from the Nair caste were traditionally Kalari trainers. That is not in dispute at all. Even anthropologists state that Nairs are a matrilineal and martial caste. I don't see why you are engaging in revisionism. --vi5in[talk] 19:32, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Malai and ali are there in many languages like Kannada, Tamil, Tulu etc. Its not Malaiali. Its Malayali. The malayalam version is Mala and aali.

I think you are confused. Many communities were matrilineal not just in kerala but Karnataka, Tamil Nadu, Srilanka, Asaam even in Indonesia etc. Kalaripayattu was/is a martial art of kerala. Not just nairs. Many communities practised it like ezhavas. Even some christans, namboothiris and muslims. Nobody has said/proved its Nair art or ezhava art or christian art or Muslim art. The word kalari, karaipayattu, Chilambam, Marma kalari are refereed in many ancient tamil books even before the word nair referenced. Nayanmar of cource were there and they were not nairs and belong different backward castes and sc/st(today's status). Actaully in south kerala of most of kalari trainers were ezhavas. i dont think its neede any moreexplanations. Refer Kerala history books. Daya Anjali (talk / contribs) 08:15, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Do you have any quotes from these "Kerala History Books"? Of course it's not "Malaiali". What I am saying is that a possible hypothesis for the origin of the name comes from the Tamil word "Malai" and "Aali". "Malai" being mountain and "Aali" being person. Like "Thozhilaali" where "Thozhil" is work and "aali" is person. The word doesn't come from Malayalam. Malayalam didn't exist at the time. Malayalam is a fairly recently language, having only diverged from about AD 900. Therefore it stands to reason that the word would have come from Tamil. This article has had this information for a long time and it has been established until you came around and changed it. I am not confused - Nairs are known to be one of the few matriarchial communities in the world, similar to Newars of Nepal as well. Kalaripayattu was also mainly practiced by Nairs. Anyway, I have provided a number of references to support this. Also, in your haste to revert my edits you will notice that you reverted your changes (ones I supported). --vi5in[talk] 19:07, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Malai is there Kannada, Telugu and tulu so the case of word aali. Its true that Malayalam has more similarities with Tamil, that doesnt mean Malayalam originated from tamil, probably both came from a common language. it is the case with all south indian languages. See Malayalam has similarities Kannada and telugu in some set words/grammar. For example for look the common word in malayalam is Nokk, in kannada its Nodi, but in Tamil its Paaru. The words Avide and ivide are more similar to Telugu words Akkade and Ikkade. (The tamil words are Anke and Inke). Ali is there in Kannada also but not common. However word ethirali(Opponent) is common in kannada. The sources arcannot be varified. also No authentic books on kalari has said. Actaully the word kalari is refernced in many Sangam and Sidha books. Chilambam said to be evolved around 5000 years back. So the case of Marma kalari. Could please provide a link/refernce citing othe communities learned kalari from Nairs.

Daya Anjali (talk / contribs) 07:52, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Please look at Malayalam language. It is an established fact that Malayalam originated from Tamil. Malayalam is a younger language than Tamil. The reason that all dravidian languages have common features is because a lot of them originated from Tamil. Tamil is a classical language. You will not find any Malayalam in Kerala prior to AD 900. You will find proto-Malayalam. This is why Malayalam is so close to Tamil, because the language diverged only a thousand years ago. As far as the Kalaripayattu, Marumakatthayam thing, I have provided you a reference to an article by Dr. Zacharias Thundy, which says the exact thing quoted in the article. Please do not blindly revert the article. You've reverted the changes I made to fix the headings in this article. --vi5in[talk] 16:10, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
See All South indian languages might have originated from a common languages. The languages Telugu and kannada are as old as tamil itself. Still i also belive that Tamil might be more closer to that common language. Malayalam has taken words from many languages including foriegn languages still closer to Tamil. If you say Malayali copme from Tamil, from which language malandu come from?(This malanadu region is there in karnataka). And for Kalaripayattu, Marumakkathayam if they were nair customes please provide the link and correct in the those artcile first. then you an edit this article. Also please provide single refernce which says others learned kalari from nairs. We all know most of the kalari in south kerala run by ezhavas include famous cheerappanchira kalari and 12 kalaris of venad kingdom by Valiya mundakkal family(Some of the kalaries are now kali temples . one among that kalarikkavu temple in mundakkal, kollam). See we can add all these thing wiki but lacks reference. I would like let you know the word kalari has been used in many old tamil texts written during sangam period

thanks Daya Anjali (talk / contribs) 12:10, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

DEINDENT. Are you going to go against established linguistics by stating that Malayalam did not come from Tamil? I am trying very hard to WP:AGF but it is hard to do so when you are being so obstinate, and worse, when you are completely wrong. Telugu split from the Proto-Dravidian language. Kannada split from Tamil-Kannada. Malayalam diverged from Tamil around AD 900, existing before only as "proto-Malayalam". Therefore, the only language that is probably as old as Tamil, is Telugu. Kannada and Malayalam are all recent languages that have evolved from Tamil. If you do not agree with this, you are completely wrong. It's your word vs. the words of experts. I have provided links in the article which state that Kalaripayattu was mainly followed by Nairs. It was a traditional art for them. I even provided a reference from Dr. Zacharias Thundy that says the same. Please take the time to go through the references instead of blindly reverting the changes. I never said that Ezhavas didn't practice Kalaripayattu, neither did I say that Ezhavas learnt it from the Nairs. What I am saying is that Kalaripayattu has been traditionally linked with the Nairs. Kalaripayattu was compulsory for all male members of the Nair caste. It is even documented (see here) how Kalaripayattu was banned by the British to curtail the powers of the Nairs, whom they saw as a threat. This just shows how much Kalaripayattu was associated with the Nairs. It doesn't matter if the word "Kalari" has been used in sangam texts. It is a compound word formed from "kalari" (a placed where exercises are taught) and "payattu" (meaning "fighting" or "exercise"). I'm not even sure where you are going with that. --vi5in[talk] 17:08, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

The Cites and references could not clarify your stand. The link doesnt say that Kalaripayattu was associated with Nairs. It says The revolt led by Pazhassi Raja was well supported by the Nair soldiers and Kurichya tribals of Wayanad. The British dreaded the widespread Kalari training and objected to the traditional system of carrying arms by the Nairs. . The details doesnt say that Nairs asssociated kalripayattu. Yes i agree that some nairs were soldiers and were carrying weapons. British banned it. You have said communities learned all these traditions from Nairs. please provide single refernce which says kalaripayattu is a Nair tradition. Also could you please provide me link which says The word malayali come from Tamil. So where did the words Malacherrys(people of Lakshadweep) and malandau(Karnataka) come from? Tamil and malayalam are similar languages. we are not sure Malayalam came tamil. No solid reference. Everybody says it might have come or might have developed together. thats it. Culturally both regions and people are totaly different. Also malayalam Script has developed from tulu script. It has valid reference as it has found many old text with similar script used to write in Tulu. please provide valid links for you edits. Thanks.

Daya Anjali (talk / contribs) 07:59, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Why did you pick only one citation and reference? Have you even looked at any of the other references? I provided you a link from the sociology site that talks about Nairs and Matrilineality. I provided you a link from Dr. Zacharias Thundy who talks about Kalaripayattu and Marumakkathayam. As far as Malayalam and Tamil go, I will, at the risk of sounding rude, say that you are completely wrong. I do not know why you are being completely childish. What the hell do you mean by "no solid references"? Don't linguists count as solid references? Are you a linguist? Did you even take the time to read the Malayalam and Tamil language article? Also, the Malayalam script did not evolve from the Tulu script. Please read up on the subject before you say such things. Both Tamil and Malayalam are influenced by the Grantha script. It seems to me that you are only here to spread your POV on this article. I am sorry to say this, but I have done my best to assume good faith. However, you still seem to be completely obstinate. --vi5in[talk] 16:07, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
First of all i am joining the debate. I want to tell you that Malayalam and Tulu script are grantha scrpts. tulu developed first and same scrpt is taken to Malayalam. see these refernces[1] [2] [3]. Actually the Malayalam used in north kerala is more similar old Tulu than Tamil. How can you say that Malayalam come from Tamil. If yes, Give the citation. Yup, tamil have more influence on Malayalam. We billavas also follow matrilinear, we are there in north malabar and Tulunadu. North kerala tiyas or eelavas follow matrilinear system. Dont show too much discrination towards particular community. thats not a good faith editor.Tulu war —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 17:15, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
How can I say Malayalam came from Tamil? Because linguists say so! If you want citations then please take a look at the Malayalam language article instead of pointlessly arguing!. There is no discrimination against any particular community. All the article is saying is that Nairs were known for their Matrilineality! --vi5in[talk] 19:09, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Nobody said nairs were not Matrilineal. But you cant add this to Malayalee article as there are many communities like ezhavas, arayars, some viswakarma communities and many tribals follow the same.And about the malayalam language all agree that malayalam is more similar to tamil. its not proved beyond the doubt that it has come from tamil. please refrain from saying pointless about discussion , we are discssing about it to reach consensus.Daya Anjali (talk / contribs)
--User:Vivin, Please refrain from all personal attacks. Please see WP:NPA. You may want to note as well that I i have just asked for citation and refernce. Nothing else. Please provide me a reference which says the word mala and aali came from tamil(we all know these words are there in many south indian languages and simhla-thats word simhala itself have formed). I am agreeing to fact that malayalam has developed independantly with more interaction with Tamil. Malayalm also has aborbed words from sanskrit, arabic, roman, percian, urdu etc.Instead quoting Nairs are the only community which followed Marumakkathayam, Serpent worship, kali worship, kalaripayattu, add many communities in kerala followed these cutoms. And you can add this to a common section. If you have solid reference that only nairs practised it please go ahead and remove from all the articles which have similar content. thats it.

Daya Anjali (talk / contribs) 05:06, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

DEINDENT. Please tell me where I have attacked you personally? I said that you are being obstinate and going completely against what linguistics have to say about Malayalam and Tamil. You might want to look here as far as where "Malayalee" comes from. Even if you look at it phonetically, Malayalee is pronounced with the 'y' as part of the word. There is no way you could have that 'y' with just 'mala' and 'aali'. On the other hand, if it was from 'malai' and 'aali', the 'ai' at the end of 'malai' incorporates the 'y'. Most words in Malayalam are of Tamil origin. I don't know what fact you are "agreeing" to, because I never said that Malayalam evolved independently from Tamil. If that was the case, Malayalam would be considered a classical language, which it is not. Malayalam evolved tamil (why don't you actually read the Malayalam language and the Tamil language article?). I am well aware that Malayalam has absorbed loanwords from other languages, but I am not sure what this has to do with the argument. The word "Malayalee" and "Malayalam" existed even before the genesis of the language itself. Like I said, they are probably corrupted versions of "malai-aali" or "malai-aazhi". If most words are of Tamil origin, how can you say Malayalee came from the Malayalam itself? As far as Nairs go, I didn't say that Nairs are the only community with these customs. I said that they are known to be different because they were (until recent times) exclusively matrilineal. In addition, they were also exclusively a martial class. Any anthropological or sociological text that talks about Nairs never fails to mention these facts. I never said that "Nairs are the only ones who practiced this". I am not where you are even getting this from. And yes as far as the argument on the language goes, your argument is pointless. It is an established fact that Malayalam evolved FROM Tamil. It did not evolve independently. --vi5in[talk] 15:25, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

The crux of my argument is this. When one talks about Nairs, one always mentions the fact that they were a matriarchial/matrifocal and martial people. This is not in dispute. Also note that nowhere in the article does it say that other castes did not practice these customs. However, there is no caste in Kerala that practiced these customs as a whole. Some sections did, but not all. This is what I am trying to say. For example, some Namboothiris had matriarchial customs (different from the Nairs), but Namboothiris are still a patriarchial community. Here are a few links supporting the fact that Nairs were known for the matriarchial system:

As far as Kalaripayattu:

Let me reiterate. I am not saying that sections of other communities did not practice matriarchy or kalaripayattu. I am saying that as a community, Nairs were known for their martial attributes (kalaripayattu) and matriarchial system (marumakkathayam). So I honestly don't see the problem here. The Ezhava article mentions that Ezhavas practiced Kalaripayaattu as well. Of course - this is true. There were a lot of Ezhava Kalari warriors. Do you see me arguing with that? But are the Ezhavas known as a martial or matrifocal/matriarchial community? No - sections of the community did practice it, but not the community as a whole. This is not the case with the Nair community. Nairs were feudal lords and warriors - they had no other profession. It was compulsory for Nairs males to undergo Kalaripayattu training. This is why they are known as a martial and martifocal/matriarchial people. --vi5in[talk] 16:06, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Also, please look here (A Comparative Grammar of the Dravidian or South-Indian Family of Languages by Robert Caldwell). It talks about the differences between Tamil and Malayalam words and how words like Mala/Malai and aazham/aali are related to words in Tamil. The region of Kerala was also known as "Malayala" for a long time. Therefore it only seems logical that a dialect of Tamil that eventually split off from the parent language would be called "Malayalam", and the people of that region, "Malayalee". --vi5in[talk] 19:45, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

I wanted remind all parties involved in the discussion that the extreme technique of malyali Kalaripayattu were taught in tulunadu Garodi or gardi. The garodi is tulu name for malyali Kalari. And garodi were only associated with Billavas of tulunadu. not with any other caste.Tulu war 15:41, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
See, please prove following statements with refercnces. Malayali derived from tamil words. also prove they are not in any other languages. i support User:Dayanjali for not adding all caste customs in this article. Also i have not heard abot this Ambalavasi caste. is it a prominent caste in kerala?Tulu war 09:27, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
If you look at Malayalam language and Tamil language, you will see that Malayalam has originated from Tamil. Secondly, the Kerala region was called "Malayala" before the evolution of the Malayalam. This would make it rather obvious that the word originated from Tamil. Secondly, all caste customs are not being added to this article. There is an introductory paragraph to each caste. Dayaanjali has an issue with one sentence - the sentence describing the martial and matrilineal attributes of Nairs. First he kept clamouring for references, and once I provided him references supporting the sentence, he nows claims that it is unnecessary to show attributes of all castes? And yes, Ambalavasi is a prominent caste in Kerala. --vi5in[talk] 19:19, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Hi Daya Anjali,
I disagree to many of your points:
Malai is there Kannada, Telugu and tulu so the case of word aali. Its true that Malayalam has more similarities with Tamil, that doesnt mean :::Malayalam originated from tamil, probably both came from a common language. it is the case with all south indian languages.
The statement made by you is not correct. The evolution of Malayalam as an independent language took place around 9th century AD. Before that, the language prevailed in the region was a local dialect of the old-Tamil. The rulers of the region were the Tamil kingdoms of Cheras, Ays, etc. Immediately after the Sangam age, the local dialect was mixed with pure Sanskrit, thus forming a new version of the language. Manipravalam is a result of this fusion. That was an age when scholars considered Sanskrit as the sign of wisdom. This resulted the formation of grammer also sliding away from the original Tamil rules and embracing the Sanskrit lexical rules of combination. The poetry following the ‘vritham’ was considered to be elite than the local folk poems. Malayalam thus got more basic vocabulary from Sanskrit while maintaining its Tamil inheritance. During evolving period, there existed two different kind of poetry. The one was in the original language (which is very very near to Tamil), known as “Pattu” (eg: Ramacharitam – 11th century) and the other was in the Sanskritised form, known as “Manipravalam” (eg: Attaprakaram and Kramadeepika – 11th century, Vaishikatantram – 12th century, Unniyachee charitam, etc). The first written grammatical book, Leelathilakam, is the evidence of the deviation from Tamil style towards Sanskrit. However, the language still holds Tamil dominance in basic grammer.
You said :
See Malayalam has similarities Kannada and telugu in some set words/grammar. For example for look the common word in malayalam is Nokk, in kannada its Nodi, but in Tamil its Paaru. The words Avide and ivide are more similar to Telugu words Akkade and Ikkade. (The tamil words are Anke and Inke). Ali is there in Kannada also but not common. However word ethirali(Opponent) is common in kannada.
Malayalam ofcourse have similarities with other languages such as Kannada. This is not because of the influence of Kannada, but because of the influence of Tamil !! See many words like Paalu, Paattu, Puli, etc in Malayalam, which is having Kannada counter parts like Haalu, Haadu, Huli, etc. :::These words are inherited to Malayalam from Tamil.
As you said, the Kannada word for Malayalam “Nokku” is “Nodi”. The original Tamil word is also “Nokku”. Remember the famous Tamil prayer “ Nokka Nokka Nodiyil Nokka, Kaakka kaakka thadayana kaakka… “ in Kandashasti kavasam. Similarly, the words “avide” and “ivide” originated from Tamil basic words of “avidam” and “ividam”. The word “ethirali” is also a Tamil word (joined form of ethir (opposite) + aali (person) ).
Since Kannada also has its roots on Old version of Tamil, you can find same words or similar words in all these languages.
It was the dominance of Namboodiris, that cemented this Sanskritization. Going down the time, we can find books like “Adyathmaramayanam” having more sanskritised words ( see this line : “vahni sandaptha lohasthambu bindunam; sannibham marthya janmam kshana bhanguram”). This is how Malayalam evolved as the language as it is now.
You said :
Everybody says it might have come or might have developed together. thats it.
This is not at all correct. Read more. :-)
Tulu war said :
Also malayalam Script has developed from tulu script. It has valid reference as it has found many old text with similar script used to write in Tulu.
This is not true. Malayalam script was called “Vattezhutthu” which means rounded script in 8th century. This was evolved from Grantha script. Later the influence of Brahmi script caused the birth of a new script which is more similar to the script used nowadays. The oldest written record in Tulu dates back only to the beginning of 10th century, which implies that Tulu was written in an earlier version of Malayalam, not vice versa.
Cheers,
-- Rajith Mohan (Talk to me..) 12:22, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
So you mean to say almost all words in Malayalam, Kannada and telugu are Tamil. So kappal(Ship) in Telugu and malayalam is a Tamil word. Manka in (Woman) in Telugu and maLayalam is a Tamil word. Thats IneterstingDaya Anjali (talk / contribs) —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 05:58, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
There might have been a common language. How can you say its Tamil? Give me vali proof which says all SL languages like Tulu come from Tamil.Tulu war
There are tulu books written in 5th and 6th century using this script and Tulu is much older than Malayalam. This language used in North kerala is much more similar to Tulu and Kannada. You can Vist Kasargiode and mangalore and talk to Malayalees there.Tulu war 05:09, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Please a give valid reference which says which says Ali amd Malai came from tamil.Tulu war —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 05:02, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
This is utter nonsense to say Malayalam eveloved from Tamil. grammer of malayalam and tamil are totally different right? About The people. The Brahmin arrived during 6-9 century AD. But thats the last migration. before that itself Brahmins were there in kerala. There were aryan budhists also. Adi shankara and moosad group belongs to earlier brahmin migrations. Also kerala communities like Nairs, ezhavas are not pure dravidians . they are crypto dravidians. They have mixed up descedents of these budhist missionaries and followers.(there were no cast during Budhist era). See serpent worship(were only part of Bushist tradition now adopted by hindu followers also. this shows budhist influence of culture) among keralites. The house arichitecture is completely different that of Tamil Nadu. And its similar to that of budhist countries.(There were budhist and jain influence in tamil nadu but not much as in kerala.) See dance forms has nothing to do with Tamil Nadu arts. we have kathakali similar to Yakshagana of karnataka. Matrilinear systems are extensive in kerala and karnataka but not that much in TN. Also Theyyam of kerala and Nema of karnataka are almost same. Spririt worship is same almost same in both states. Paddanas of Karnataka are closer Ballards of kerala. Communities are much closer that of Karnataka. Nairs and bunts, ezhavas and billavas(idiga), Amabalavasis and devadasis etc. No such similarities with Tamil people. Malabar cost had trade with european and arab merchants(coutries). Their language influence is seen in Current Malayalam. Whats true here is Malayalam developed with more influence from Tamil. :::::There were a language used in Malabar cost similar to Tamil but not Tamil. But with more words from Other languages like Eropean, Arabic, persian etc(words Kuris, Mesa, Kambi etc)
Daya Anjali (talk / contribs) 05:44, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
U said See many words like Paalu, Paattu, Puli, etc in Malayalam, which is having Kannada counter parts like Haalu, Haadu, Huli, etc. These words are inherited to Malayalam from Tamil. U meant to say there were no kerala communities during that period? Once they were using tamil words and it suddenly become Malayalam One day!!! Daya Anjali (talk / contribs) 05:55, 9 October 2007 (UTC)


A langauge used by Malabaris had no script during olden times. Majority of the people(inluding in administration) were using Tamil scripts for writing before the arriaval of Brahmins(who might have brought the grantha script). And Travellers confused this being tamil itself. This might have the theaory behind old tamil rule. Whatever may be the reason prove that Malayali came from Tamil words.Thats the point. If thats the case we have to rewrite all Wiki malayalam article to add this come from Tamil word. ! Daya Anjali (talk / contribs) 05:55, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Please specify a link/ref saying kannada came from tamil.Daya Anjali (talk / contribs) 05:55, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Did you even take a look at that link to the book I posted (in google books) that talks about the comparative grammars of dravidian languages? Tulu War, the Malayalam and Tamil script came from the Grantha script. If you take a look, you will see how similar both the scripts are. The Malayalam and Tamil scripts are extremely similar and are in fact, rather dissimilar compared to the Kannada and Tamil scripts (though I believe all are abugidas). Rajith even gave you dates for the earliest known references to the scripts, which proves what we are trying to say. And of course the language used in North Kerala is similar to Tulu. That's because of the proximity of that region to Karnataka. This happens in every part of the world. For example, the Malayalam in Palakkad and in parts of Trivandrum have a Tamil-flavour due to the proximity of that region to Tamil Nadu. And this goes for Tamil too - Tamil in places like Pollachi (close to the border of Kerala) will have Malayalam attributes. Dayaanjali, you might think it is utter nonsense that Malayalam evolved from Tamil. In fact, that is a rather bold statement that is contrary to what every Linguist who is a Dravidian Language expert has to say. The irony is that what you just said is completely wrong. Let me reiterate. Malayalam evolved from Tamil. You keep asking for references. How about you take a look at the Malayalam language and Tamil language pages like I have asked you about a hundred times already? There's your reference!. Your point about the population being Crypto-dravidian has absolutely nothing to do with the current discussion at hand. You then ask if "Malayalam became Tamil suddenly one day!". Your argument is a straw man argument, because no one said that. If you took the time to go through what Rajith had to say, you will see that he provided a clear line for the evolution of Malayalam from Tamil. With the arrival of the Namboothiris to Kerala, the Tamil on the western side of the Indian Peninsula became heavily sanskritized. You have pieces composed in a mix of Old Tamil and Sanskrit (Manipravalam). The fact remains that in Kerala, before about 900 or 800 AD, the lingua franca was (Old) Tamil. No one has to rewrite every wiki article saying that "this word came from Tamil". That is a ridiculous assertion. What we are saying is that a) The region known as Kerala currently, was known as "Malayala" long before the genesis of the Malayalam language and b) It would therefore seem logical that this word would have originated in the Tamil language. And finally, to support our point, we know for a fact (because, some experts known as linguists say this) that Malayalam originated from Tamil. You also say that the grammar of both languages are different. This is wrong. The grammars of both languages are actually very similar. This is why a Tamilian and a Malayalee can understand each other (with a degree of difficulty). I have been brought up speaking Malayalam, but I can still figure out the dialogues in Tamil movies due to similar words, and even more importantly, similar grammar. Malayalam and Tamil only differ about as much as Portuguese and Spanish do (which you would know, if you took a look at Malayalam language). I'll leave you with this link. Please take a look where he says "Tamil and Malayalam were most probably one language with pre-Malayalam as a diverging western dialect..." and also "The oldest Malayalam inscriptions and literary texts are not earlier than about the ninth century A.D.". I am sorry to say, but the both of you are completely wrong. If you keep reverting this version to deliberately add information which we have consistently proven to be incorrect, I will have no choice but to report you to WP:ANI. --vi5in[talk] 10:29, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Its interesting read that after the arrival Namboothiris suddenly the language chnaged? Then what about Iyers and Iyenkars? They are more Aryan than Namboothiris latter mixed up a lot with local budhist monks(eg Ashta vaidyar Moosad, pottis etc). Hoever Tamil has not changed much still it has a lot Sanskrit words(Not as much as Malayalam). Could you please tell me the influence of word Tharippanam(A dravidian word) with any tamil word with same meaning? could you please tell me the influence of Sanskrit and Namboothiris so that Tamil word Kooppunko became Malayalam word Vilikkua? Daya Anjali (talk / contribs) 13:37, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Namboothiris arrived in Kerala somewhere around AD 600 and AD 700. No one is saying that the language suddenly changed, so please stop saying that. It is a non-argument. I find it amazing that you think that Tamil has less Sanskrit words than Malayalam. This is patently false. Why aren't you going through the references I provided? Tell me, on what basis are you arguing against what linguists say? More importantly, are you a linguist? What qualifications do you have? It is painfully obvious you aren't doing any sort of research to support your arguments. If you had, you would know that within Tamil Grammar, there are different Word Classes, one of them is called viLippu col, which translates to words for calling'. So the word viLi exists in Tamil. Malayalam eventually evolved to use viLi instead of koopunko. --vi5in[talk] 16:13, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

DEINDENT. I don't have enough time for more than a quick comment here, but Vivin asked me to weigh in. It is quite true that Malayalam and Tamil diverged from a common language relatively recently. The speakers of that language called it Tamil, but this is a social fact, not a linguistic one; it says nothing about the relative "similarity" of those languages. (For instance, modern Greek isn't any more similar to ancient Greek than modern Italian to Latin, despite the fact that we call both the two former languages "Greek.") Since from a linguistic standpoint, those labels are arbitrary, all living languages (excepting constructed languages like Esperanto) are equally old (young) in that they can all trace their "ancestry" into prehistory. It is in this sense that Dutch and Afrikaans, English and Scots, and, yes, Tamil and Malayalam are "equally old." This is exactly what the articles on Tamil and Malayalam say. --Xiaopo (Talk) 22:34, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Hello Dayaanjali and Tuluwar,
I am afraid that your arguments are quite baseless. As a Malayalee, I too wish to say that Malayalam is not evolved from Tamil. But I should go by my brain rather than heart. Please do the same, go by your brain; not heart. We are not talking here about the various dialects of Malayalam. The dialects differ from place to place, and the influence of neighbouring languages will be visible. Thats why you could find some Kannada words in extreme north of Kerala, and Tamil words in Palakkad. This was pointed out by Vivin.
When I read through the entire discussion, I felt that you are not reading out the links provided. So, I am not here for an argument. Please refrain from repeated revisions. Let us make the article very much Neutral.
Thanks a lot.
- Rajith Mohan (Talk to me..)
Please Stop this. Why people wanted to ruin this article. People want their own community article in wikipedia to be better than others'. Guys, why you wanted add that Mala and azhi are tamil words just add the meaning of the words and leave it off.

Vvmundakkal 04:53, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Has the University of Kerala's ongoing Malayalam Lexicon project reached the letter "ma"? I believe they've gotten all the way up to volume 7 or 8, but I'm not sure which letter of the alphabet that represents. In any event, if it has, it seems to me that the simplest way to resolve this issue will be to look up what they say about the etymology of the word "Malayali", and simply base what this article says on that. If I remember correctly, mediaeval Tamil literature usually used "Malaiyalan" rather than "Malaiyali" to refer to the inhabitants of Malabar, but I could be wrong. -- :::Arvind 22:52, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Hey Arvind, that would be a great place to look. But I guess you said it right there - the area of Kerala was known as "Malayala" for a while. So it would make sense for the people to be called "Malaiyalan". Either way, the origin of the word is far older than the origin of the language itself. Indeed, the language is named after the region, which would mean that the word "Malayala" would have only come from Tamil, since that area spoke a western dialect of Tamil. --vi5in[talk] 00:21, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
Hello Vivin, so you are also not sure as you said it would have come from. That means no reference to say the words come from any language. How can you add content wikipedia without any refrence?.. I assume we have reached end of the discussion. The content should be preserved as it is..Tulu war 08:08, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
Don't try to split hairs here or be overly pedantic. I know what I said. Also, like I have said about a hundred times, the area was known as "Malayala" long before the language Malayalam originated. You keep blabbing about references. I honestly don't have the time to provide them all again. You seem to be unable or unwilling to look at them. Go through this talk page and find them again for yourself. The result of the discussion is obvious. Your position is untenable and without merit. The content will be changed to reflect the view supported by linguists. --vi5in[talk] 12:45, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

DEINDENT. Hello, you have not provided any link(atleast) which says the words come from any language. I think wikipedia is not the place to add unvarifed content and anyone's political views.Tulu war —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 17:43, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

I give up. Seriously, just go and read this whole discussion again. I'll tell you this much. It's rather obvious from this discussion that your points are completely invalid. If you continue to keep arguing and if you will continue to revert the article to your (wrong) version. It will be considered vandalism and you will be blocked. --vi5in[talk] 23:54, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
Want more references? See this and this (Names and Their Histories: A Handbook of Historical Geography and Topographical Nomenclature by Isaac Taylor). --vi5in[talk] 00:09, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
Comman man, the reference does not say that the words come from any particular language. The word meaning is only there.It says Tamil with a local variation was used there. But doesnt say they come from Any language. Also it just comment from of an author. There multiple contradicting opinion from many liguists. Also dont lie. You have been accusing me many user discussions saying that i with other editors are rejecting your arguement of relationship between tamil and malayalam. please stop thatTulu war —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 03:19, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps you need to go over my reference about the comparative linguistics between dravidian languages. "Malai" is Dravidian for "Mountain". If you cannot figure elementary logic, it is not my problem. You are arguing just for the sake of arguing. All the points you have put forth, have been invalidated. One only needs to go through your initial point (that Malayalam did not originate from Tamil) to see that it is false. Can you answer this very simple question? If the region of Kerala was known as Malayala before the development of the Malayalam language, then can you tell me how Malayalee comes from the Malayalam language? Seems kind of paradoxical, doesn't it? Please explain this in light of your theory (that Malayalam doesn't come from Tamil). Thanks! --vi5in[talk] 07:25, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
Check out this and this. Malai is Proto-South-Dravidian and Tamil. In Malayalam it is Mala. It loses the ai. --vi5in[talk] 08:24, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
Hello, dont take this issue as personal. Also dont just argue for the same arguement. You have nevered proved with a solid ref which says it came from Tamil.I agee these dravidian words. These dravidian words are there in Many languages. On the same time i admit the influence of Tamil in Malayalam. Better we stop here. Thatsnk for a great discussionDaya Anjali (talk / :::::contribs) 09:51, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
Gee, I dunno, but seeing that Tamil is a classical dravidian language, and that Malai is "mountain" in proto-Dravidian and Tamil, that should prove my point right there. Tamil/Old Tamil -> Manipravalam (Tamil + Sanksrit) -> Malayalam. I see, I have never proved with a solid reference that Malayalam originated from Tamil? Wow, fine, I will humour you and list all the references I have provided thus far:
From the article: Proto-Tamil Malayalam, the common stock of Tamil and Malayalam apparently diverged over a period of four or five centuries from the ninth century on, resulting in the emergence of Malayalam as a language distinct from Tamil.
and In his Comparative Grammar of Dravidian Languages (1875), Bishop Robert Caldwell argued that Malayalam evolved out of Tamil and that the process took place during the Sangam period (first five centuries A.D.) when Kerala belonged to the larger political unit called Tamilakam, the apogee of Dravidian civilization.
There, is that enough? If you don't believe that Malayalam originated from Tamil, then where exactly did it originate from? What is your theory? :::::Can you also explain why there is no Malayalam before the 8th or 9th centuries? I would suggest that you not leave this discussion. --vi5in[talk] 16:27, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

DEINDENT. Malayalam originated from what is called by Indologists as Classical Tamil or Sangha Thamizh. The present day Tamil is only a derivative from its classical form. These could be considered two different languages. The script is also different.There are a number of words in Malayalam which you find in old Tamil literature, but which are no longer used in present day Tamil. You could say that Malayalam is a form of Classical or Sangha Tamil which was spoken in Kerala/Chera Nadu or something similar.--Sankarrukku 06:38, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

I believe it was a western dialect that eventually diverged. That's what the linguists say. Perhaps instead of saying the words came from Tamil, we can say that it came from Old Tamil or Classical Tamil? --vi5in[talk] 02:28, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
Please do not use the word "came from" or "from" or dialect at all. Malayalam is the formalization of a form of Classical or Sangha Tamil which was spoken in Kerala/Chera Nadu. "Clasical Tamil" is the accepted usage in Indology. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sankarrukku (talk • contribs) 04:09, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
Thinking about it further why not drop this from business and get on with making this page good. I speak a language which is called Malayalam by Tamils and Tamil by Malayalees. Thank you.--Sankarrukku 04:30, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
I disagree. Linguists state that Malayalam originated from a western dialect of Old Tamil, or Proto-Tamil-Malayalam. Its transformation was cemented by Sanskritization. Prior to the 9th century, you will find only (Old) Tamil in the Kerala area. "Formalization" is also true, but now we're just being euphemistic. There's nothing wrong in stating that Malayalam originated from (Old) Tamil. Anyway, I was talking about the words "Malai" and "Aaali" or "Aazham". The whole region was called "Malayala" before the Malayalam language even originated. --vi5in[talk] 04:42, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

It is called Transitional Grantha; from about 1300 on, the modern script has been in use. Currently two varieties are used: Brahmanic, or square, and Jain, or round. The Tulu-Malayalam script is a variety of Grantha dating from the 8th or 9th century AD. The modern Tamil script may also be derived from Grantha, but this is not certain.

I this will open up your eyes. you can find the details here[4] in britannica.

Some more details about the script

Grantha script: emerged from the Gupta script that in turn was derived from Brahmi script. Grantha script developed in the 5th and 6th century C.E. Veda Vyasa was said to have written the Vedas in the Grantha script. This led to the postulation that the Vedas were written down much later than their origins as oral traditions. This also suggests that the Tulu script developed much later than the language itself. All the Dravidian literature developed from Grantha script after the 5th century C.E. However, there is literature in Tamil dating back to 3rd century B.C.E. to 3rd century C.E. (Sangam literature). Currently Sanskrit language is written in Nagari script that developed in the 7th century C.E.

The people of Noth kerala are also Malayalis. There is community called malayali Billava or Belchadas in across Tulunadu. Their language is not at all similar to Tamil but have Tulu Influence. There also called Malayalis. There is also a community called Bearys, they also also use malayali dialect having least Sanskrit words. Still their language is not at all similar to Tamil. Also Tulu is one of the oldest language in South India evolved much before Tamil and Kannada evolved(Much before Tamil-kananda evolved). If you have doubt you can find it here[5].

References: A major source of reference for this article is Dr. Padmanabha Kekunnaya’s thesis, “A Comparative Study of Tulu Dialects.” Other referral sources are “Renaissance in Tulu literature” and “Tulu Lexicon:A New Experiment in Dictionary Making” both by Dr. U. P. Upadhyaya.


Tulu war 05:19, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

This doesn't say anything about Malayalam not having diverged from (Old) Tamil. All this says is that the Tulu-Malayalam script is a variant of Grantha. So? The original Grantha script has been used to write Sanskrit in Tamil (see Grantha script). Also, if you see here, it says how the Grantha script evolved into the Malayalam script. Writing systems themselves don't say anything about the evolution of a language. In some cases, it has nothing to do with the language itself; having only been adopted to provide a written version of a language. You have some grave misconceptions of languages and linguistics in general. You still haven't proved that Malayalam is an independent language and did not evolve from (Old) Tamil. With that in mind, your arguments have absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand. It doesn't matter if the people there speak a different language and identify themselves as "Malayalis". That doesn't mean that Malayalam originated from Tulu or whatever. I know that your argument is to try and show that there is no Tamil influence in Malayalam. But like I explained before, and which you have obviously failed to read or understand, Malayalam takes on the attributes of neighboring languages in the border areas of the Kerala state. This goes for any language in any part of the world. --vi5in[talk] 16:52, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Hello Vivin, i cannot authentically support your statements. But what i can sya here is , all south indian languages are inlfunced each other because of migration and emigration. Tulu amd Malayali communities are much closer than wny communities in India, both culturally and lingustically though tulu is much older. My request is limit caste contnet in this article. Also whats the need to add that words(disputed) words come from any particyular language? If you have solid understanding and referals then add those details in language article. this will solve the problem.Tulu war 04:44, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
If you cannot authentically support your arguments then you shouldn't be arguing your points in the first place. How can you even justify adding your information to this article if you cannot even support your points? Even going by the link that you posted, you can see the relationship between the different languages. You can see how Malayalam diverged from Proto-Tamil-Malayalam. If Tulu diverged earlier from Proto-Dravidian, this makes Malayalam more distantly related to Tulu, than to Tamil. Your argument about Tulu and Malayali communities being closer "linguistically" and "culturally" holds absolutely no water. Malayalam is linguistically closer to Tamil and that is a fact. Your very own link proves that. I have provided you the references and details for this article to support the content. Please don't spin the "it doesn't belong in this article" argument now that your points have been shown to be wrong. This is exactly what Dayaanjali is doing. First, Dayaanjali claimed my points were "wrong" and "unsourced". Then once I gave him proper sources, he suddenly started saying that "we shouldn't have caste details in this article". It's not even that much. Each community is described by an introductory paragraph. I honestly don't see the point here. You are arguing just for the sake of arguing now. More than one person has proven your points wrong and without merit. --vi5in[talk] 04:56, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
I think you have confused. i was replying to your comments on some word meaning. So dont knwo much that. The problem can be easily solved as the words pwnership issue is dropped:)Tulu war 08:03, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Communities practised Marumakkathayyam or similar tradition

Minangkabau People of West Sumatra, the Ezhava, Nairs, and Kurichiyas of Kerala, India, Bunts and Billavas of Karnataka, Pillai caste in Nagercoil District of Tamil Nadu, the Khasi and Garo of Meghalaya, India, the Naxi of China, the Gitksan of British Columbia the Iroquois Confederacy (Haudenosaunee), the Hopi, the Picts and the Berbers.

cheers! Daya Anjali (talk / contribs) 10:54, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

GOOD LORD! What don't you understand? We are talking about Kerala here! I am not saying there are no other matrilineal communities. What I am saying is that Nairs are known to be one of them. That is exactly what the article states! --vi5in[talk] 16:08, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Billavas are two groups. Malayali billava and tulu billavas. Billavas were following matrilineal Tulu war 17:19, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
That sounds better Vivin, What I am saying is that Nairs are known to be one of them. But you have quoted these customs as unique to Nairs in some other article. You may please modify those. Your argument that other communities learnt Kalaripayat from Nairs is baseless and biased. User Dayanjali has provided enough references to prove the martial traditions in Ezhava community. I don't think you would ever change your opinion. btw, an internet article or a history book is not always neutral. I don't have any comments on Malayalam language's origin when we are not certain on Malayalee's origin. One sugestion. Let's not have too much caste stuffs in this article. Panikkar —Preceding unsigned comment added by Panikkar (talk • contribs) 16:46, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
I haven't said that they are unique to Nairs. Nor have I said that Ezhavas never had a martial tradition. If you read my arguments, you would realize that. My point is that sociologically Nairs are known as a martial and matrilineal caste. We can rewrite the sentence that way if that makes everyone happier. --vi5in[talk] 22:36, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Malayalee - solution

We have accepted(and a known fact) the fact that language Malayalam developed with maximum influence from Tamil. The issue here is with two words Mala and aali from whcih the word Malayalee developed. All South indians know that these words are there in their own languages(Since they are similar). These two words are also found in many other foriegn languages like Sinhala, dhivehi etc. The meaning of word in all language are exactly same. Mala means Hill and aali means person or citizen. The Problem here is we dont know from which language its developed. However since Malayalee means a person speaks malayalam, I have replaced existing content that is these words orginated from Tamil and its meaning Hill country in Tamil' with these words orginated from Malayalam and its meaning Hill country in Malayalam . Since a dispute is raised by one editor User:Vivin, however as a solution, we have removed the language part and rewritten the content as the word Malayalee orginated from words mala and aali and its meaning is Hill country in local language. Again dispute is raised and we have removed local language phrase from the content in order to achieve a peaceful solution. Now the content is The word Malayali originates from Mala meaning Hill and Aali meaning person. Malayalee literally means a person hailing from a Hill Country.. In Malayalam language article its clearly mentions its relationship Tamil language. So whats the pupuse of adding that this developed from Tamil. Malayalee means a person who speaks Malayalam. Anything else look like moth-eaten theories about race/language.

Other cites

(developed from ethiru means opposite and aali means person)

  • Sinhala developed from Sinha/simha(Lion) and aal(person). We can assumethat these words come from Tamil or Sanskrit. Whats the need of such things in Sinhala Article. Sinhala means a language or people who speaks the language simhala. Same thing is applicable here in Malayalee article too.

Daya Anjali (talk / contribs) 06:29, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

That solution is unacceptable because it's wrong.Can you please explain to me, how the Kerala region was known as Malayala before there was ever a language called Malayalam? It was a western dialect of Tamil that became Malayalam. You might say it came from "Mala" and "aali" but a person who knows nothing about this region will wonder which language these words come from. The answer is Tamil. I find it rather amusing that someone with absolutely no linguistic qualifications would call established linguistic theory "moth-eaten". Once again, can you please tell me exactly how the region of Kerala was known as Malayala before the Malayalam language evolved? This would be in direct contradiction of your assertion that the word came from Malayalam. Also, you have made no comment about the sources I have provided that prove my point, and disprove yours. --vi5in[talk] 08:33, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
I thisnk we wil continue the way its. I think no need to argue further you have failed provide a valid reference.Simply dont waste ur time over this issue. And about communities i dont have any thing to comment.Tulu war —Preceding comment was added at 09:46, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
See above for references. --vi5in[talk] 16:43, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
The issue and diispute is not with the origin of Malayalam but with the words Mala and aali which make up Malayalee. Reference(Not even link) has not been provided to varify that these words come from any language(these words are found in many Indian and foriegn languages.(Please read the comment by User:Dayaanjali). Tulu war 08:54, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Ho. Hum. See my links above for your references. --vi5in[talk] 15:56, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Thanks links/refs do say about Malayalam and tamil but doesnt say Mala and aali came from Tamil.Also whats the need of adding these details(Mala and aali came from Tamil and all) to Malayalee article? Simply say the people who speak Malayalam are Malayalees. cheersTulu war —Preceding comment was added at 04:46, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
I'll give you a hint. The reference starts with the word "Comparative". --vi5in[talk] 07:41, 25 October 2007 (UTC)