Talk:Makuria

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This page really needs a list of rulers and I can't find oneGeni 16:45, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Images

I've asked that this article be placed on the main page soon. However, the Featured Article Director doesn't feel that the map or the parchment is a suitable image for the front page, and the pinkish fresco thing doesn't look great either. So, if anyone can find a good image of some item of Makurian art or architecture, please add it to the article; then the next stop will be the main page. — Amcaja 17:51, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately we are somewhat lacking editors from Sudan, so getting some more photos might not be easy. - SimonP 20:01, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
There should be stuff to photograph at the British Museum. Do you know anyone who lives in London? — Amcaja 20:07, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Not really, but a friendly message at the British Wikipedians noticeboard might be able to find someone. The best collection of Makurian artifacts outside of Sudan is actually in Warsaw, but I've been informed that photography is forbidden in the National Museum there. - SimonP 20:16, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Really excellent article. Too bad about the lack of pictures. --jacobolus (t) 05:55, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Additions

To make an excellent Article better, as featuring an Article brings more discussion. --Connection 14:06, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

  1. "ordain an abuna, or metropolitan, for the Ethiopian Orthodox Church..." The head of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church is a Catholicos (see Talk:Abuna), higher than a metropolitan.
  2. "king was also considered a priest ..." may refer to a Biblical tradition, as king David had free access comparable to a priest. The Tradition of Coptic Church specfically allows the King access to the altar (compared to a Priest or a Deacon). However, no reference to perfoming a Mass. Are sources pointing out specifically the king "could perform mass", or are in gerneral terms may be understood simply as free access to the Altar, compared to old and somewhat christian traditions?
  3. More analysis. "John of Biclarum states that Makuria then embraced the rival Byzantine Christianity." What was the affiliation of Makuria Church, before and after that turn? The concept of "free" Bishop does not exist in both traditions. And how a big faith leap (turning to Coptic Patriarch of Alexandria) took place? All this is still obscure. Sources of the Alexandria church are parsimonious and obscure on that entire Sudan business!
  4. "influxes of Coptic-speaking Christian refugees from Egypt" has created an important community, nornally called Nagādy. The term is genetive for Naqādah, a city in upper Egypt, pronounced according to Sudan and Upper-Egypt Arabic phonology. The term is used for any Christian Egyptan settler, even if not from Naqâdah. The term hence may be found in family name "an-Nagādy". They are mostly involved in agricultural activities.
  5. Should history stop at "the Ottoman Sultan Selim"? Or extend (at least refering to other Articles) to the British codominiom (British occupation under Egyptian flag).
Responding point-by-point:
  1. You are quoting yourself here. I've responded at Talk:Abuna; let's continue the discussion there.
  2. That appears to be Shinnie's opinion. Can you provide a citation for your opinion? If so, then in the spirit of NPOV, we should include both.
  3. The affiliation of the Makurian Church was based on whom their bishop was in communion with: either the bishop stop communicating with one Patriarch & began with the other, or he was deposed (most likely by the king) & replaced with another bishop. (This happened later in Makurian history: see Abraham of Makuria.) Religious politics were very changable in this period, & as Makuria lay at the edge of the Mediterranian world they could easily "switch sides" with little worry of repurcussions. But you are right: the historical material is sparse for all of the Nubian kingdoms.
  4. Can you provide a citation for this statement about the Nagādy? If so, then adding this material (or an article about it) would be welcome.
  5. I suspect that the history stops at Sultan Selim because that is where the historical evidence ends. (This is as far as Wallis Budge brings his account of Nubia in his A History of Ethiopia: Nubia and Abyssinia.) In any case, by the 16th century the Christian communities had fallen apart, & were overrun by the founders of the Kingdom of Sennar, & other Moslem peoples. (Alvares has a poignant anecdote in his account of visiting the court of Lebna Dengel: a deputation from Nubia had arrived, begging for priests & monks to help them keep their faith alive; the Emperor replied that he could not spare any religious workers for Nubia, & referred them to the Patriarch of Alexandria, explaining this was where he -- the Emperor -- turned for help.) -- llywrch 22:12, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Inaccuracy in "Origins" Section

This section contains a sentance that states the Battle of Dongola was "the only major defeat suffered by an Arab army in the first century of Islamic expansion". That's factually incorrect, because the Sassanid Persians routed an Arab army in the (Battle of the Bridges?) in Iraq, and Roman armies defeated the Arabs a few times, in Anatolia and during the seiges of Constantinople. Plus the Franks defeated the Arabs at Tours in 732. While it's not an article-destroying error, it is still an error that should be corrected. Thomas Lessman (talk) 17:04, 19 November 2007 (UTC)