Talk:Makiwara

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[edit] Misconceptions etc

Especially in this section, citations are needed for any contentious topics. I've added a few tags after sentences i thought were particularly needing them, but the section as a whole just doesn't read as very encyclopedic to me. In specific, i'm talking about the syntax of the last three sentences, which sound like the warnings from a prescription medicine commercial (no offense intended). Any help in finding these sources would be greatly appreciated -- especially by whoever wrote the section in the first place. Archtemplar 18:35, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus to move, per the discussion below, although there may be support for a "Makiwara" section in a future Hojo undō article. Dekimasuよ! 14:23, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Makiwara → Hojo undo — Broaden scope of article to include all martial arts conditioning tools Scott Alter 23:15, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Add  # '''Support'''  or  # '''Oppose'''  on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~. Please remember that this is not a vote; comments must include reasons to carry weight.
  1. Support - A lot of material on this page is generalizable to hojo undo, of which makiwara training is a part of. Whether or not this rename would take place, I will create a Hojo undo article, and I believe this article can be entirely incorporated into it. --Scott Alter 23:21, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
  2. Oppose - Ive never heard the tearm hojo undo. Per wiki policy, the article should go under the name it is commonly known by. RogueNinjatalk 23:52, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
  1. Oppose - I like having 2 separate articles. I think it is ok if the information is repetitive. I think hojo undo should be linked at the top of the makiwara article. However, many people use the encyclopedia as a dictionary as well. I think makiwara is cool enough to have its own article. I vote to copy it's information too the main hojo undo article though. Tkjazzer 01:22, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
  1. Oppose - The correct term is Hojo undō (補助運動, ほじょうんどう), not "Hojo undo" (ほじょうんど?), which as near as I can tell is not a word. LordAmeth 09:01, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
    If this was processed, one of us would move it to the correct WP:MOS-JP title; that part would be uncontroversial, so this is a bit of a red herring. How do you feel about the merits of the move from a content standpoint? Dekimasuよ! 11:50, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
    Ah, okay. Just wanted to make sure that was cool - I've detected in the past serious resistance from editors of martial arts topics to use macrons... Speaking purely contentwise, I have no opinion on the matter, as I really don't know much about the subject. Thanks, Dek. LordAmeth 13:37, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Add any additional comments:

Hojo undo is a form of martial arts conditioning using specific tools. For those unfamiliar, see [1] [2] [3] for some examples. --Scott Alter 23:21, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Just to clarify, I am not just proposing to rename the article (if so, I would agree with User:RogueNinja). I want to expand the scope of the article to also include other martial arts conditioning tools (known as hojo undo). Other than the makiwara, there is probably not enough content to warrant an article on each individual tool. And even now, how much more could be written about the makiwara. I believe the content would be better and more focused if all of these tools are in one article. The Makiwara article would redirect to Hojo undo. Just because someone has never heard of the name of the style of conditioning does not mean the name should not be used - especially since hojo undo is the appropriate name. And again - I will be making a page on Hojo undo. I believe that the makiwara article content should be merged with the new page...but rather than merge them after I create a hojo undo page, I want to use the makiwara page as a starting point. --Scott Alter 00:13, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

  • I understand what you are saying, but I dont think the article should be redirected. Makiwara is the primary article. Put the other minor things under hojo undo, with a link to makiwara. RogueNinjatalk 00:26, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

When I get some time, I'll just make a new article, and try not to duplicate too much. For makiwara, I'll have a short decription with a link to Makiwara using {{Main}} --Scott Alter 17:02, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

  • Can someone please provide kanji for the term "hojo undo"? I don't know anything about the concept, and can't really speak to the appropriateness of "makiwara" vs. "hojo undo", but if "hojo undo" is in fact the wrong term and it should instead be Hōjō undō, Hōjo undō, or any sort of combination like that, then that's what it should be. "Hojo Undo" is as different from "Hōjō Undō" as "Waychee Roo" is from "Uechi-ryū" - wrong spelling means wrong pronunciation, which means it's the wrong word. Kanji, please, to confirm (kanji's a good thing to include in the article in any case). LordAmeth 00:28, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
If you can read Japanese, it is probably on this page (English version here). As far as using the correct accents, is there a Wikipedia policy or standard on translating between languages? Since the ō character is not used in the English language, I would not expect to see this character in an encyclopedia (paper or electronic). --Scott Alter 05:31, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
There in fact is a Wikipedia policy on romanizing Japanese words - you can read more about it here. I understand your logic in saying that "ō" is not an English letter, but it's basically just used as an alternative to "ou", as a pronunciation/spelling aid. The purpose here is not to Anglicize everything in the Wikipedia, but to represent it correctly - and if that entails using accent marks, tildes, macrons, or tonal indicators, so it goes. If you know anything about Japanese, you'll know that there's a difference between ほうじょう and ほじょ - they're completely different words, and so we use the "ō" character to represent that difference. That said, I have found the kanji - thank you much for providing that link - and it turns out that it is "hojo undō" (補助運動), with no long vowels in the "hojo" as I'd mistakenly expected. Thanks for your help and your quick response. LordAmeth 08:58, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

[edit] website interview section:

Interviewer: Sensei, it appears that you favor using the makiwara punching post. Can you tell me a little about its use?

Sensei: There are two kinds of makiwara. One is called a Shuri-makiwara and it stands to the height of the instructor's breast bone. The other is called a Naha-makiwara. The Naha-makiwara was mainly used by goju-ryu practitioners. It stood as high as the instructor's solar plexus (the bottom of the breast bone). The shorin-ryu practitioner would stand up in the kihon dachi (basic short stance) and throw the punch at the board. The goju-ryu practitioner would punch from a shikko dachi (square stance). The dojo usually had two kinds of makiwara. One was a soft/pliant makiwara and the other one was usually a stiff/hard makiwara. The soft one was used to develop speed and form while the stiff one was used to develop power. Both had to be used. If they were not, then you would develop problems with the shoulder. Nowadays, most Okinawan practitioners use only the Shuri-style makiwara because the Naha-makiwara is too difficult and hard to use. The soft makiwara is off center about five inches. The measurement is from the tip of the thumb to the tip of the forefinger. By punching the soft makiwara, you end up with the board in an upright position -- this way you make sure that you are using the correct knuckles.' Tkjazzer 18:52, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Original source: http://www.ihadojo.com/IhaSensei/index.htm --Scott Alter 22:23, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sub page idea: List of Dojos (listed by style) that use makiwara

I think it would be fun to have a list of dojos (grouped by styles) that use makiwaras in their training. This would be a link and not added to this article. Thoughts? Tkjazzer 21:53, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

A list of dojos is probably too detailed for here. Maybe a listing of styles or systems that emphasize this type of training. Since this list should be rather short, it could start off within this article, and move it to a separate page if it gets too long. --Scott Alter 02:12, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
Can I start the list by adding Beikoku Shido-kan?? Tkjazzer 23:20, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] apartment makiwaras

makiwara and apartment living

I do not have a makiwara, but I have a friend who does. What you do (for any portable makiwara), is build a platform to stand on, attach a stand to one end, and place the makiwara in the stand. Here is a picture of the entire setup 1, and this is a closeup of the stand 2. The force you use to strike the makiwara is transfered upward from the platform, using the stand as a fulcrum - but your weight on the platform keeps the makiwara from going anywhere. If you do build one of these, make sure that the base wood is strong. I have broken the bases of makiwara that used soft wood. Also, you may need some type of cushioning under the platform to absorb the vibrations. Hitting a makiwara generates lots of noise and vibrations, which your neighbors might not appreciate. --Scott Alter 22:36, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

You can try just using thick, but firm carpet. Alternatively, you can try dense foam. Anything is better than wood-on-wood or wood-on-concrete. It gets complicated, because you want something soft enough to be absorptive, but firm enough to stand on. You can always add this later, and use trial and error. --Scott Alter 22:57, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

The height for a makiwara I like is roughly shoulder-height. My punches are usually aimed at the height of my sternum. That height allows me to have a good punch (wrist straight - metacarpal bones in same plane as radius and ulna) and make contact using my second and third metacarpo-phalangeal knuckles. --Scott Alter 00:56, 8 May 2007 (UTC)