Talk:Makara Jyothi

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[edit] Request for Photographs

--- all these contents should be properly screened, it may raise a communal issue since it is related to the spirit of crores of devotees --

Some of the rationalist activists from Kerala (such as Dhanuvachapuram Sukumaran, A.V.Jose etc) do possess the photographs they had taken when they went to Ponnambalamedu in 1981. Indian Atheist Publishers, New Delhi too seems to have in their posession some of those photographs. Will anybody get hold of them and upload the photos to wikipedia, after getting proper permission from the copyright holders? MANOJTV 11:59, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Eminent Figures who opposed this fraud

A number of well known individuals have come out with statements opposing/exposing the involement of the Kerala Government in perpetuating this fraud. Some of them are:

Edamaruku (late), Rationalist & Writer
M. Krishnan Nair (late), Director General of Police, Kerala (wrote about the involvement of police in his autobiography serialised in Mathrubhumi weekly)
Pavanan (late), Malayalam Literary critic, Writer, political activist & rationalist.
Sugatha Kumari, Malayalam Poet. MANOJTV 12:06, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism by the user with IP Address No.202.88.253.50

The user has committed vandalism by removing a very important paragraph. He or she did not give any reason for this deletion. This very same person earlier (on 2 March 2007) visted the page on Electronic Nose and added nonsense there. It seems the user does not require any reason for indulging in vandalism. MANOJTV 14:33, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism or destruction of any page should be condemned. But the encyclopedia writers are requested to use much more formal language and address their versions of truths as either 'claims' or 'allegations'. Wikipedia is not a portal to fame or defame any individual or institution. Please do keep in mind about these.

- - If any part of the page is not in formal language, any user is free to correct it. But since the above user with IP address 202.83.35.81 has not pointed out which part of the article is written in informal language, I am not in a position to correct it.

But adding the word allegation wherever he/she likes to in order to give a different slant to the whole article is just not acceptable. The information I provided in the article is supported by published materials in Malayalam - some appeared in well known magazines/dailies (such as Mathrubhumi, Janayugam etc). These are not allegation but factual information. On the contrary, anything with supernatual attributes should be taken with a bagfull of salt.

The information given in the newly-added paragrah Other Theories is not related to Makarajyothi. It may have some relevance in a page on Sabarimala and if it is so, that can be added to the article on Sabarimala.

Given the above fact, I revert the article to the previous version. MANOJTV 12:16, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

The section "Other Theories refer to the Buddhist origin of Sabarimala and its name 'Potalaka' because of the 'light in the sky' as claimed by beleivers. The claim goes to say "thats how the name of Dalai Lama's residence Potala got its name".

And in Wikipedia, if the responsible editors are to clash quoting local weeklies and news papers, it would defeat the whole purpose of 'contributing to the sum total of human knowledge'. Any claim of supernatural should be as avoidable as claim of anything 'factual' with only one side. Wikipedia, and rational thinking media world over believs in two-version theory (Multi sided outlook)of reality. What words 'fact', 'truth' mean can be a matter of debate. Knowledge theories or epistemology disagress with nihilism or extreme skepticism, but encourages variety of view points or paradigms. We, the editors, have a basic guideline of "We agree to disagree" principle. So two sides are welcomed for rational and informed debates. Otherwise vandalising will be a regular feature here. The 'claims' of Jesus marrying to Mary, or Jesus stay in India, or Area 51 of Aliens, or Alien Abduction should be treated as either allegations or claims.

So it is naturally hoped from the editors that they will keep the basic principle of using Wikipedia as a portal that shares and educates and not as methods of airing opinions and one-sided paradigms.

Here no change is being done the version by the editor. But as a responsible, rational and impartial user, it is expected that he will stick to the guidelines.

[edit] Local fraud and Local media

Sabarimala Ayyappan was essentially a local deity of Keralites (Ayyappan, son of Vishnu and Shiva, is not mentioned any of the Hindu purnas/mythologies), though it has been gaining prominence in the southern states of India recently - during the last 2 to 3 decades. This fraud of Makara Jyothi too was essentially a local fraud perpetrated on the local people by the local government, though it is now marketed as part of Religious-tourism. Naturally, it is the local activists who took the initiative to expose it. Naturally, again, it is mainly the local media who reported about it. (By the way, as a solace to those who crave for a non-local media, the now defunct The Illustrated Weekly of India published by The Times of India group too published in the 1980s an article on the expose of Makarajyothi. Unfortunately, I do not have copy of the article to cite as reference). Hence the references to local media is not something to be despised at. It is worthwhile to point out here that because of the effort of local media and local activists, it is no more a miracle to the local devotees of Sabarimal Ayyappan. It is mainly catered to/marketed among the devotees coming from outside the state of Kerala.

Though I agree that that Makara Jyothi belongs, in some sense, to the same category as the Alien abduction or Bermuda Triangle, there is a major difference. This is an outright fraud (with financial ramifications) committed with the active aid of an elected government on the gullible devotees. This is not acceptable and should be exposed.

I did not contribute the article. I only added information after somenoneelse uploaded the article claiming that Makara Jyothi was a miracle.

Though I have serious reservations with the epistemological stand taken by the above contributor, since we are not discussing the theory of knowledge, I do want to say anything here. MANOJTV 14:32, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

I have been watching the discussion going on here. But the editor above was careful enough not to mention 'Jesus, his marriage and his life in India'. There is even some version suggesting about the so called 'same-sex' relationship he had. I hope the above author will respond to that too. And about media reporting it, If you are quoting either NDTV, or Malayalam media, if you search in internet, you can see even many international media giving news about Sabarimala and MakaraJyothi. Last time Cnn-Ibn gave a comprehensive coverage to Makarajyothi. So quoting media will never prove or disprove anything. And especially me being a person from outside the state of Kerala, it is even known to me that Sabarimala didnt rose to prominance in the past 2 or 3 decades as some media or people claim. Just because media was not there to report prior to 1960's, it doesnt mean, it was not there.

And Sabarimala was a headline news in 1950's (i dont remember exact year), when a fire broke out there. And any person who studies history can easily see the contribution of Sabarimala to secular fabric of your state Kerala, and many devotees coming from all other parts of the country. And Ayyappan (or more precisely Hari Hara Putran) was even mentioned in Buddhist scriptures as an earlier editor pointed out. He was called Hari-Hara putra, because he combined the Vaishnavite and Saivite philosophies of that time. There are also some other versions suggesting Buddhist leanings. And even from my state (Karnataka), people have been going there for many decades. So when people do comment about such a place, whether you believe it or not, should have adequate knowledge, research and learning.

And being a devotee, let me ask you a single question.

1) 60 years we were ruled by different governments, You mean to say that..All these governments you had were fraud?, all the courts who existed for the past decades were fraud and supported 'financial ramifications'?, 90% of the media people are fools?, crores of devotees are stupid?, even international media coming there helped the fraud? Even the supreme court of India where anyone can file a Public interest litigation is dump. And you are right because some people and rationalists say so..My friend, be sensible or "PROVE" your point. Otherwise have the integrity and intellectual honesty to call your version of story "just another version".

Some one claims Makara Jyothi as a 'miracle', some one claims it as 'fraud'. Both positions should be given in the article. Otherwise Wikipedia will fall into the category of propoganda mechanism. Being an editor, I request evey other editor to keep up the standard of wikipedia, be in the limits of 'reflecting' and not reacting information...And most importantly being IMPARTIAL

[edit] Towards a clarification

From the IP address as well as from the language of the user, it seems, the above contributor is not a first time contributor (one who has been watching from the sidelines so far)to this page as he/she claims to be. I could be wrong. It is always possible that two persons might have been using the same computer for accessing internet/wikipedia.

Coming to the issues s/he raised, let me try my best to give some satisfactory answers.

1. Jesus & his life in India: I don't know what precisely is the relevance of this topic here. I don't find any. But if one asks me about the so-called miracles performed by him, then ofcourse there is some relevance - both (Makarajyothi & miracles of Jesus) belongs to the broad category of miracles. But the miracles that the Bibles attributes to Jesus belongs to the same category of miracles as the ones one can see in other religious texts such as Mahabharatha, Ramayana, Quran etc. None of these stories, to me, have any factual basis. To give my opinion about Juses' life in India, I am not an authority on Christianity, Jesus, Bible etc. I have read books which logically argued that this claim did not have any historical basis. There are authors who claims that Jesus (as given in the Bible) did not exist - they quotes a lot of similarities in the lifes of Christ & Krishna. It is possible that there have been a lot of give and take between Hindu and Christian mythologies. It is difficult to arrive at a final answer.

2. The role of media in exposing this fraud: If a media is socially responsible, they should have sent their correspondents to Ponnambalamedu with their TV crew to find out what is happening there on the day of Makarasankranthi. Unfortunately, they won't do this - it's a highly sensitive religious issue for them to expose. Even if they want to, they will not be allowed by the posse of Kerala Police to approach the exact spot where this drama is enacted. (In 1982 a group of rationalists where beaten up by the police when they went there to do a repeat of 1981)A But atleast they could report on the resistence on the part of the police. But one who wants to really expose it, they can attempt a Tehelka type investigation to bring out this fraud perpetrated on the devotees. I only hope someone with the required wherewithals will do it in the near future.

3. Buddhist Leanings: Yes, there are studies which shows/claims that Sabarimala was a Buddhist pilgrim centre which was later captured by the Brahmins/Hindus.

4. Role of government: The police protection given by the Kerala Police started after a large group (100+) of rationalists finally exposed this fraud in 1981. Before that it was managed by the temple authorities with the help of the officials of Idukki/Pampa irrigation project who own the land (Ponnambalamedu).

5.What was the origin of this miracle? Did the temple authorities manage this affair from time immemorial?

The involvement of temple authorities in lighting this lamp is definitely comparatively recent - a few decades (from the beginning of last century?) old. It is difficult to say when exactly did they get involved in this affairs, unless the temple authorites themselves come out with the truth - that is asking for the moon!

What was happening before the temple authorities themselves started lighting this miraculous beacon? That is a matter of conjuncture. One possible explanation is: The tribal people who were residing at the hilly areas of Ponnambalamedu might have regularly lighted fire to keep themselves warm in the winter (December/January) season; they might have lighted it as a means to drive away the wild animals. This would have appeared to the devotees standing in Sabarimala as a Jyothi. Doubtless, the tribals would have lighted the fire throughout the winter season. But who bothers to notice? That is the power of faith! Who bothers to look whether eagles are regularly present in the surroundings of Sabarimala and not just on the day of Thiruvabharanam?

After the irrigation project came up in the area, the tribals left the area leaving nobody to create the miraculous beacon! The ingenuity of the temple authorities came out with the solution - light it themselves! Thus began the saga of the modern avatar of Makarajyothi!

6. Financial ramifications? Yes, the State of Kerala has been experiencing a large influx of fund from outside the state during the Sabarimala pilgrim season. In fact, the government hell-bent on promoting tourism as a mega-industry (regardless of the consequences - destruction of the pristine environment, prostitution, etc) has come out with a new term - Religious Tourism, with Sabarimala and Guruvayoor as the focus. Which government wants to give up such a huge revenue? Which political party (left/centre/right) wants to alienate the hindu voters?

Finally, what really matters to me is what's happening now and not what would have happened in the past.

Hope I have succeeded in clarifying certain of the queries the contributor raised.MANOJTV 01:46, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Clarification needs to be comprehensive not partial

Mr Manoj carefully escaped and evaded many questions. The question was very specific, I repeat "JUST BECAUSE some media claim or as some people 'claim', that Jesus got married to Mary Magdalene, will we write in Wikipedia that "The Truth - Jesus got married to Mary" or "The Expose - the real secrets revealed - Jesus was married". or any other allegation of sort. There are innumberable books by people again "claiming" that they were abducted by aliens. WILL WE WRITE IN WIKIPEDIA ..."The TRUTH of Aliens". Again Many people now 'claim' with 'evidence', TAJ MAHAL was a hindu monument. WILL WE WRITE IN WIKIPEDIA "THE EXPOSE - TAJ MAHAL's REAL STORY"

SO BE sure when you make a claim or allegation or your version of story. And Again let me name you sir, Mr Manoj was careful in avoiding the question "WHAT WERE THE COURTS DOING". Anyone can file a case in the court. Or court can take SUO MOTTO action. Are our courts stupid? or ARE THEY ALSO GETTING BENEFITS?

DOES ANY ONE HAVE THE PHOTO EVIDENCE THEY CLAIM...PUBLISH IT in the internet.. YOU AGAIN CLAIM THERE WERE PHOTOS AND IT WAS LOST. IS Yuktivadi Sangham so childish and foolish to loose photos of the, perhaps..the greatest religious fraud in modern INDIA. DID THEY LOOSE PHOTOS SO SIMPLY...JUST like that.

WHY DONT THEY GO AND TAKE THE PHOTO AND VIDEO OF POLICE STANDING THERE AND EXPOSE IT THROUGH VARIOUS VISUAL CHANNELS....

WHEN YOU DONT HAVE THE NERVE TO DO THAT, WHEN YOU DONT HAVE THE "EVIDENCE OR PROOF" with YOU....PLEASE BE MODEST AND SAY "See there is another version of the miracle".

DO YOU EVEN HAVE A SINGLE SOLID EVIDENCE TO SAY THAT..IT IS A FRAUD or DRAMA ? GIVE IT..thats the way of rationalist..thats the way of a person who believes in sciene...thats a person basic tool in search of truth.

( By the, the people who were greatest proponents of "RATIONALISM", the so-called "Yuktivadam" were all strong beleivers in god, whether it be Descartes, Spinoza or Leibinz)

[edit] NDTV reports on Makara Jyothi

I reproduce a report (dateline: January 11, 2007, Ponnambalamedu) filed by a NDTV correspondent on Makara Jyothi. Here is the link: http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/story.aspx?id=NEWEN20070000611 (Accessed on May 28, 2007). Here is the link to the visuals: http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/videos.aspx?id=10648

And here is the report:

"Sabarimala miracle claims disputed

NDTV Correspondent, Thursday, January 11, 2007 (Ponnambalamedu)

Makaravilakku or the festival of divine light at Sabarimala draws the second largest number of pilgrims in the country. Devotees say the appearance of the light three times is a miracle but some say it is a set up.

Every Makar Sakranthi at 6.30 pm the summit of a hill opposite the Ayyappa temple lights up. Government broadcasters Doordarshan and All India Radio cover the annual event live. The divine light or Makarajyothi draws a million devotees according to the Devaswom Board, which runs the temple management. Pilgrims stream in from several states, some of them hold on to vantage positions for several days to witness the event.

"A light appears on the hill, it's a miraculous thing and that is why pilgrims are coming," says the President of Tranvancore Devasnom Board Raman Nair.

Not a miracle

A former employee of the Kerala State Electricity Board (KSEB) Shivananda claims the light is not a miracle. "When I got transferred to the Pampa division of KSEB near Sabarimala, I got an opportunity to actually see this light being lit in 1981," he said. "A Devaswom Board assistant engineer Karunakaran Nair, two policemen and two labourers had come there. They had one or two kilograms of camphor and an aluminium vessel. The light was lit by a KSEB driver VR Gopinathan Nair," Shivananda explains. This version of the light is widely known in Kerala but rarely discussed.

Devasnom Minister G Sudhakaran says, "nobody has examined it, government never inquired into it, we are not planning to inquire into that because that is related to the faith of devotees for hundreds of years." "As far as the temple is concerned as far as the belief is concerned it is not good for the government to inquire " Sudhakaran said.

But as the pilgrims increased in the mid-eighties the enterprise drew in more personnel and resources including a large contingent of police making it harder to conceal. Till the early 1980s igniting the light was confined to a small group of KSEB employees who helped the Devaswom Board.

Another former KSEB employee says, "when I went there in 1986, the police had completely cordoned off the area. They let in only a few people whom they knew well. Officials from Devaswom Board lit the light".

Closely guarded site

A forest road runs from Vandi Periyar, 100 kms from Kottayam. Of Kochu Pampa, midway to Sabarigiri hydel project a mud track goes inside the reserve forest. The forest department closely guards the road. The key to a barricade on the road is with the nearest forest check post a couple of kilometers away. The forest department reportedly opens the barricade and lets Dewasom and police officials into Ponnambalamedu where the miracle is set up.

"Makarajyoti is the biggest ritualistic fraud in the country which has disastrous social and ecological impact," Dr PM Rajan Gurukkal, director of the School of Social Sciences said. "On that day many people remain in vulnerable positions unmindful of the danger to see the state sponsored magic. The core of the whole activity is commerce. It generates a lot of money and a miracle attracts a lot of people".

In 1999 a stampede among pilgrims gathered to see the light left 52 people dead." MANOJTV 04:08, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

WIKIPEDIA SHOULD NOT USED FOR PROPOGATION OR PROPOGANDA ACTIVITIES...

When a view is given, both sides of the story should be given. Otherwise, it will affect the credibility of Wikipedia.

So, all users are expected to practise self-restrain in 'preaching' their views.

Please See Wiki Guidelines for further policy guidelines —Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.68.65.72 (talk) 11:08, August 27, 2007 (UTC)

It is suggested that words like 'in fact' is not proper to the context as it is under the heading "Allegation". If it is a fact 'in fact', then it should not appear under the heading 'Allegation'. And if it is not a fact, it is not in the proper spirit of language to place the word "in fact". The apparent contradiction in meaning will create confusion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.68.65.145 (talk) 18:50, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The author is providing a humongously biased false story taken from gossip magazines and gossip journals published by so called rationalists.

The author is providing a humongously biased false story taken from gossip magazines and gossip journals published by so called rationalists. It is sad to see that wikipedia allows such false matter taken from magazines and journals without any credibility to be printed. Bhanave 08:24, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

It is time that Manoj and all the others who seem to think that the Makarajyothi is a fraud woke up to thtruth. Millions of devotees all over the world have witnessed this divine light, which faithfully lights up on the 14th January every year.

If as you say, this is a fraud, then it must have been on a huge scale with thousands in the know. What fools we would have been, had all these people come forward to claim this fraud. But where are these people? Only some people, for their own selfish interests, to increase their own self importance, have claimed this. Even Nayanar who was once the Chief Minister of Kerala claimed that KSEB was orchestrating this fraud. Even his own government could not provide evidence. So how come all the other governments are doing it? If as you say, it is for the government coffers, this phenomenon started a long time ago, when there were not many pilgrims. Were they out to make riches then?

Do not try to put down the Hindu religion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.111.187.25 (talk) 05:24, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Ok Mr. "Do not try to put down the Hindu religion", as a fellow Hindu let me ask you one question. Kindly explain the 1981 expose to me. Or please help me understand that if there is nothing to hide and it is truely miracluous, then what are the police doing there on the 14th??? Why the security cordone? If a real miracle is happening, why not let the devotees get a closer look at the same??? Why is there a nice concrete slab at the place where the light is "supposedly" burnt every year (Check the NDTV footage). Please state ur answers here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.167.94.77 (talk) 19:56, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I suppose Keralites are educated lot with a good reputation as thinking people, how come they do not react to this fraud publicly. May be the money involved keeps them quiet. But let me tell you Every religion has its fair amount of cotroversies, but as long as people become less spiritual and can be mesmerised by magic and frauds this kind of act will follow. Belive in God but donot subscribe to such gimmick.

But it is sad that keralites who pose to be wise among all Indians make this kind of act. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.54.173.162 (talk) 10:49, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

As a Hindu, who believes in the religion. I challenge MANOJ or any one for that matter to PROVE the matter and not "quote" or raise any unproven allegations. Dont try for propagandas in Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.68.65.222 (talk) 23:06, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] This article should be removed

The content of the article is purely a biased version of the history. By this the author(s) is trying to disturb the crores of Lord Ayyappa devotees. Pls update the document or remove it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gops808 (talk • contribs) 05:39, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

- - Though I am an atheist, I personally have nothing against anyone who believes, profess, or preach his/her own religion. But fraud - even in the name of religion - is altogether a different matter. It should be opposed.

Here, in the present case, it is the devotees of Sabarimala who are defrauded by the mercenary temple authorities and the state government (now ruled by CPM) whose eye is only on the huge revenue the devotees bring to the state of Kerala.

The devotees will continue to visit the temple in large numbers, even if the authorities come out with the truth. Because the miracle of Makarajyothi is not the only reason why the devotees visit the temple. My own close friends who are aware of the real facts behind this fraud, visit Sabarimala just like any other place of worship every year strictly observing all the associated rites. MANOJTV (talk) 08:54, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

But the article "Makara Jyothi" is used here only to show the information against it (All sentences in the article is written with prejudiced mindset, never tried to scientifically analyse what is makara jyothiss or never tried to give the believers side on this). It is only giving the propaganda of some atheists in Kerala). Why there should be this article in wikipedia which shows only side of a object. It should be neutral (I mean that). Time for this to be deleted or modify. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gops808 (talk • contribs) 05:14, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV in this article

I've checked this page several times since the first time I stumbled across it, and almost always find something either anti-christian or anti-hindu has been added to the first section. Also, I've found that every time words such as "miracle" appear, someone sees the need to either italicize it, put it in quotes, sometimes even both. Also, oftentimes these changes have horrible grammar, and are completely unrelated to the topic. So far as I know, this topic isn't high enough in public knowledge to explain the frequency of these changes, so I'm guessing it's one person repeatedly vandalizing the page to make a point. --24.109.147.70 21:04, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I think NPOV tag can be removed at this stage since controversy section added along with references. Only thing mention about “miracle” may be an issue. But since there is no substitution and devotees believe so, leave it as it is. One more general cleanup also required as many materials repeating (please confirm) numerous times. I also suggest removing words like ‘fraud’ and other unreferenced sources (if there is) see WP:UNDUE, WP:TRUTH etc. Can someone look into this? --Avinesh Jose T 08:50, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Removing tags

I made a massive edits with plenty of general cleanups in every sections. Inviting a third person to verify it again and possible removal of all three tags placed i.e NPOV, Essay-like, Inappropriate-tone. Thanks. --Avinesh Jose T 11:02, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

This looks better. The earlier one had only statements against the popular belief. And for the grammatic mistakes (if it has) I am not the person. - gops808

as a wikipedia user ,i strongly Mr.Manoj's biased allegations against particularly one religion.we know every religion now exists in the world can not prove their credibility through scientific arguments. i strongly believe this alleged article by Mr.Manoj decrease the credibility of wikipedia . if wiki people want to approve this article please put articles belongs all religions (christianity,hinduism, islam,...) based on scientific argumants . —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.169.185.137 (talk) 14:23, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Am I missing something

The lead of this article says it is about a light that is lit, it makes no mention of any supernatural claims.

Then two paragraphs later there is talk of a natural explanation, that this is not in fact a "celestial event."

I just don't understand. Sethie (talk) 04:17, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Moved annonym comment from article page to discussion page

Though this acts as contreversy, the real fact being, that it is impossible for the light to be vissible this far aaway. According to the sightings of many millions, there has a been a clear sight of it. Unless, something real big (like a forest fire), it is impossible to really see such a big light at a uch a huge distance (about 6~10 Km.) The real queston is however that no matter if it is true or fales, but why doesn't the Kerala Govt. allow scientific study on it?? Question to be answered.! [added comment by annoym user: 70.142.163.67]. (Moved by:--Avinesh Jose T 06:12, 12 February 2008 (UTC))

[edit] Why do people fight over their Misunderstandings?

(read the whole thing) Let me point out one thing very specifically. Now 'Sabarimala Women entry' is in the Supreme Court of India. Some young women lawyers allege it is "female discrimination" not to allow women. Even the Supreme Court took it very serious and today referred it to higher Constitutional Bench

How can there be female discrimination when lakhs of women have a 'darshan' every year. Young women only from the age of 10-50 are not allowed, but media hyped it to such an extent that even the Supreme Court felt "Women" are not allowed and there can be a possibility of "Female inequality". Any person in Kerala knows millions of women above the age of 50 and girls below the age of 10 goes there. So it is not "Female Discrimination" as such. But by the USE OF WORDS "Sabarimala Women Entry", a sense, a connotative meaning has come as if there is 'female discrimination'.

In the same way, those people who dont know the basic difference between "Makara Jyoti - a star in the sky" and "Makara Vilakku- light LIT there symbolically by authorities is making these problems". For source, you cannot get these information in internet. You have to go to basic, grass root levels for gathering such information.

All Keralites know there is no mystery surrounding Makara Jyoti and Makara Vilakku...if some one wants to create mystery & miracle first and then DEBUNK later. Well, it is their choice. I repeat to the so-called ignorant beliveres, that Makara Vilakku is man lit, and there is no miracle. Even in the legend, it is recorded that Ayyappa appears as "Makara Jyoti - star" and not makara vilakku. For the faithful they can believe it is Ayyappa, but remember Makara Vilakku is just symbolic deeparadhana.

For the rationalists, they deserve applause for they are the people who always acts as a "check" from people going from 'Belief to Superstition'. That is good. But in temple matters, rationalists need not force them from 'belief to non-belief'.

As a society we want religious belief to exist, not as a superstition, but in a more scientifically accepted way. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.68.67.29 (talk) 22:18, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] How to reinstate external links as references

When I reverted the vandalised page to an earlier better version of the article, the external links were deleted becasuse I faced certain problems. The following is the message displayed by the Wikipedia.

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I request some other wikipedia contributers who are more familiar with wikipedia editing to reinstate all the links (as on 6 March 2008 edited by 59.93.10.253)I had to delete to revert the article to the previous page. It would be better if some one can reinstate the entire article (including the external links) as of that day. In the meantime I will try myself to do it.Againstvandals (talk) 09:56, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

- - I have myself reverted to the full version along with the external links. I made a mistake earlier when I tried to reinstate the page earlier. This has now been corrected. Againstvandals (talk) 10:11, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Makara jyoti & vilaku - clarification required

The article and the various discussions that have appeared on this page seem to point out to light from two sources - one makara jyothi and another makara vilaku. However the article does not discuss whether these are one and the same, or different. this has led to ambuguity for a reader. Please clarify whether makara jyothi is different from makara vilakku. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Iatrowvw (talk • contribs) 16:24, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

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