Template talk:Major Grape Varieties

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[edit] First draft

This is a first draft at a new template for categorising wine. No doubt I have forgotten some, but please remember that this is major grape varieties – not an exhaustive list. The Grape Varieties link on the title line goes to a page with an exhaustive list.

Portnadler 16:08, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Please see my comments on the Wikiproject Wine talk page. I understand this isn't supposed to be an exhaustive list, but I'm skeptical that anyone could ever agree on what's "major" unless you stated what objective measurement you're using up front. A list ranked by total production, expanded to the point where the varietals listed total more than 50% world production, would be one objective measure. The template I see here seems to include some minor grapes that happen to be familiar names to many westerners, but not what I would call "major." -Amatulic 17:05, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Amatulic, could you be more specific about which ones you think are "minor"? So far, this list looks like a good start to me. Obviously, it might be good to have some production data to back this up. If we did, would using words along the lines of "popular" or "widely-produced" be less contentious than the word "major"? Also, if we had that data, I think setting a cutoff of perhaps 20 or so varieties of red, 20 or so of white would be a reasonable cap.--EvilSuggestions 19:51, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Which ones I think are "minor": Tempranillo and Semillon. Of course, I'm often wrong. :) I did find this data about California major wine grapes by tonnage: Chardonnay, Cabernet Sauvignon, Zinfandel, and Colombard acount for more than half the wine grapes in California. I know California isn't representative of the world; I wish I could find similar data for worldwide production. -Amatulic 20:58, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
A problem with production data might be that several grapes listed in the template are primarily used as blends. I'm not sure how to judge their popularity. - The Bethling(Talk) 20:09, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
It looks like an excellent start. Please take a look at my commnets about the grape colors on the WP page. I do think that Viognier probably belongs with the whites, and Malbec and Sangiovese are important enough that they could be included here. --- The Bethling(Talk) 20:09, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd be quite happy to include Viognier, Malbec and Sangiovese. In Europe, Viognier is mainly associated with Condrieu, which is a relatively small French appellation, but I know it is widely planted elsewhere. I'm not so sure about dividing them into red wine grapes and white wine grapes, because we could run into problems with White Zinfandel, which is a blush wine made from black grapes, and also, quelle horreur, Champagne, which uses Pinot Noir. Not for nothing do the French call it pinot noir au jus blanc. --Portnadler 20:48, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

(after edit conflict) I agree with the Bethling on the need to separate it as Red/White grape because you're including inherent inaccuracies in trying to call Gertie and Pinot Gris/Grigio green grapes. Again going with the logic that these templates are for the benefits of novice who are most likely wanting to learn about the wine grapes, why add unneccesary confusion? Your examples of White Zin and Champagne give perfect reasons for the a Wine Style Template (along with Beaujolais, Roija, Burgundy and the like) that will amply cover those topics. Agne 21:14, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I intensely dislike the 'major' concept and am for a comprehensive list instead. What is major in terms of surface, value of wine produced, along time is highly relative. All Hungarian vintners would argue that the varieties blended to produce Tokaji, furmint etc. are 'major' in importance. Drunk by popes and czars, around for four hundred years. I can foresee ugly edit wars over inclusion/exlusion (it's not going to be me...).

Couldn't you use some objective measures, added to the comprehensive list of varieties to help readers identify more widespread grapes instead? varbal 19:12, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Criteria

Some thoughts...

  • I think there should be a cap of 10 whites/10 reds (maybe smaller) First, for practical purposes it would be most ideal to keep the template bar "2 lines" in width across the page. We don't want it to become so huge that it becomes the "monster at the end of the page". Second, it will force us to pin down consensus on what is major rather then let it spiral towards including every grape that was ever put into a bottle of wine.
  • Personally, I don't consider "blending" grapes-i.e. grapes that are rarely there own varietal, to be major. Grenache definitely falls into that blending category and to an extent Semillon. I'd also be skeptical about the "Major" designation for Gamay simply because it more often recognized as Beaujolais instead of individual recognition of the grape itself. I would say templates and infoboxes are more for the benefit of the wine novice to easily find their way then for someone more knowledgeable who will already know what to search for. Most likely a "wine novice" is going to pick up a bottle of wine, read the label and then come to Wikipedia to look for info. If they have a Bordeaux then they'll go to the yet-to-be-created Wine Style template and see Beaujolais, Burgundy and the like. But with the grapes I think the context of the template should stick to which grape varietals that you would most likely see on a label. My two cents. Agne 21:07, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
    • If we can agree on criteria for what constitutes "major" then we may not need an arbitrary cap; who knows, maybe just eight or nine grapes may account for over 50% of world wine consumption.
    • I have no problem including a blending grape as "major" if it's widely used. And some grapes that were once used only exclusively for blends are now decent varietals in their own right, Sangiovese and Grenache being two examples (although neither one might qualify as "major" production-wise). -Amatulic 22:29, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Grapes added

I've added Muscat, Sangiovese and Viognier. The first two because of their importance for a large number of established regions and the latter because of current fashion - the template can always change if the fashion of introducing Viognier in the New World declines. Using a subjective measure to decide which grapes to include will always be difficult and may not be the most helpful choice for readers. E.g. Airén may be the most cultivated variety, but I doubt many people will be drinking it or reading about it. --The Sage of Brouhaha 12:28, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Superseded

I suggest that we withdraw this template in favour of {{Wines}}. The only page that references it is its talk page. --Portnadler 10:30, 12 October 2006 (UTC)