Talk:Major football rivalries

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[edit] Orlando Pirates Kaizer Chiefs Derby

Its the largest derby in Southern Africa and one of the most fiercly contested in the world plus it has an interesting history. 41.241.0.113 09:05, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tyne Wear derby

ok, i was wondering why the tyne wear derby (Newcastle United and Sunderland AFC) hasn't been included on this page as it is one of the most highly anticipated and well important derby/ rivalry in english football, if any proof is needed i believe the forced departure of ruud gullit after newcastle fell to sunderland back int the bad old days after the fella rested teh legend that is shearer, there is a lot of tension between the 2 sets of supported Crabman123 18:12, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Celtic as a Catholic Club

Have Celtic ever really been a Catholic club? I.e. did they exclude non-Catholic players as Rangers excluded non-Protestants.

Bob Palin 18:25, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

They were set up a club for Irish Catholics at a time when discrimination against them was rife. While they have taken on non-catholic players, it is the history of the founding of the club that makes it "catholic". - Master Of Ninja 18:38, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
But it's still very misleading and untrue to say that it is a "Catholic club" in the article as if it still officially is. Peoplesunionpro 20:35, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Omitted

Real Madrid vs. Athletic de Bilbao, Real Madrid vs. Real Sociedad (politics play a role ; Real Sociedad long would not take on non Basque players, and Athletic de Bilbao still only has Basque players)

Tottenham Hotspur vs. Arsenal

Hamburg vs. Rostock

Neither Hamburg - Rostock nor the North London Derby are even the most fierce rivalries in their own country, let alone in world football.
My suggestion would be Man Utd - Liverpool. Both have a long standing hatred of each other and there hasn't been a transfer between the two for over 30 years. --Alilaw 14:34, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I think that local derby should cover most of these, and keep here only major derbies. I would even erase América vs Guadalajara, as it's not a world wide know derby, for instance Fenerbahçe vs Galatasaray. But that's just me. --Mariano 05:55, 2005 Jun 8 (UTC)
I agree. I set up this page as local derby was quite big, and people were trying to fill the derby section of football culture with lots of unnecessary information. This page was set up for games which are not derbies. I'm not too concerned about America vs Guadalajara as (even though I hadn't heard of it before) i heard that the teams are quite famous regionally. So personally I think it should be kept. I'm also for this as the page is quite compact at the moment. If there were a lot of 'rivalries' on the page I would think that we would have to become more selective of what matches appear here. But I don't think we should change if for now. What do others think? - Master Of Ninja 23:10, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I added the America vs Guadalajara rivalry as it is watched on this side of the pond by a lot of people, both in the United States and in México. According to [[1]], a web site in Mexico, the last game had a rating of 16 points in a country with 100 million inhabitants (It means it was watched by 16 million people only in Mexico, not counting the USA, that has a large mexican population also). The stadiums: Azteca Stadium sits 110,000 people, and Jalisco sits 65,000, so it is a 'large' game. I understand it might not be well known in Europe, but I think that for sake of completness, we can not just talk about the major rivalries for European Leagues. Of course, things such as the amount of passion are hard to quantify, but the 16 Million figure I think makes this classic game important enough to be included here. Also, would you include a major rivalry for each country? and what about major rivalries between nations? should an article be created for that too? Another comment, would it be a good idea to add the country after the team's name? Threner 08:11 08.06.2005 CT
It's true the article is still quite compact, but I don't agree at all with the idea of a derby per country. There are over 200 countries!!! Rivalries between countries can be problematic too, but we can't deny there are some known international derbies, the problem is to separate them form the political derbies, and the only locally important. (eg: Argentina-Brazil (non-political); Argentina-England (political), Australia-New Zeland (not so important to football) ). --Mariano 07:18, 2005 Jun 9 (UTC)
What if we talk about, for example, the top 20 leagues according to the IFHSS, ordered by league importance, one per country? then we have something more to add about, the artiche would be quite complete, and it would not be so long that it is impossible to read... It will also add some facts, as the IFHSS is the source for statistics... Threner 02:59 09.06.2005 CT
Sounds like a good plan, as a least we have a reference, and also a criteria so that the article does not get too large. I also suggest that we restrict the article to club sides, as people are filling the local derby page with international rivalries. Also I was wondering what the IFHSS was and how reference-worthy it would be? I would also suggest that, unless in exceptional circumstances, once a rivalry from a top 20 country is filed into the article it should not be removed if the country drops out of the IFHSS as there might be slight seasonal variations. - Master Of Ninja 21:16, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Perfect, lets get to work ;) The International Federation of Football History and Statistics (Sorry I had it wrong the first time) is an organization by FIFA that keeps track of several different statistics for soccer. In a way it is the most authoritative source for this kinda stuff. Web link is: http://www.iffhs.de. The current top ten is at this link: The strongest leagues in the world. The method seems fair enough. What they do is add up the points obtained by clubs of every country on international category events, such as Copa Libertadores and UEFA Championship, as those international events are the most significant to compare relative strenghts. What I propose is to order all 20 countries by ranking, and adding the most important matches. What do you think? Threner 2005.06.09 05.29pm CT
I think the solution Mast Ninja suggested is quite political, and easy to follow, but maybe not the best. For instance, I think 20 countries is a bit too much, since some countries don't have such a long history in football to have real Major fooball rivalries, or simply the rivalry is not that important. For instances, I believe Turkish Fenerbahçe vs Galatasaray derby, whose leage ranks 12, is far more important than any French (5th place) derby. and possibly Italy has more than one Major rivalry. It has to do with the number of people involved, and the feelings in play, not just the two biggest teams of each country. Of course, this is impossible to measure! But I htink it would be better to keep this article as World renowned major football rivalries. Hard to do, I know, but yet the right think to do. -Mariano 09:31, 2005 Jun 10 (UTC)
The problem I see, with the comments specially about the Major Rivarly for México, is that because this page is edited mainly by people on Europe, it will be based only on what europeans think are the most important classics... For chilean fan, for example, U. Catolica vs Colo-colo may hold way more appeal than Barcelona - Real Madrid, it only doesn't have as much coverage. However, agreed on the French comment... for some reason there seems not to be as much passion in France :D. That is why I was proposing some attempt at fairness... South American Soccer certainly doesn't lack passion, but only Boca Juniors vs River Plate makes some noise in Europe. So what could we do? What about Uruguay, Chile, Colombia, Brazil? (Well Brazil has thousands of teams, but maybe a comment on this fact would help the readers at least know that there is so many that is an impossible task)Threner 2005.06.09 05.29pm CT
I have to agree that 'major' in the title IMHO should mean 'world famous' that most people have heard of. This however has the downside of making it very euro-centric, which may be something that should be avoided (compare football culture which is still very euro-centric despite the many revisions it has gone through). This article should be stable in the sense that once complete matches should be rarely added or deleted. There also needs to be a cut off point for major, so that the article does not decend into people just adding random matches to it. The local derby page used to be quite compact, but lately is just one big list. What we need is a guideline so that people can see where we have taken matches from. The links from Mariano below are good, but the first one may be seen as subjective and the 2nd deals with derbies alone. I'll see if I can find other references. - Master Of Ninja 19:08, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I see your point. And I can't think of a perfect solution, but adding derbies just because of a calculation doesn't seam right either. I suggest we add the italian derby (which one should it be?), and wait. If a user adds a derby, then we'll handle it on the go. Sorry, can't think of anything better. A good guide could be Best World Derbies and BBC. I think I agree with most of them. -Mariano 16:07, 2005 Jun 10 (UTC)

A.C. Milan vs Inter Milan is also missing! rbonvall 01:57, September 12, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Boca Juniors vs River Plate

Could someone provide translations for the posters shown in this section? Thanks CTOAGN 09:31, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Los Angeles Galaxy vs Club Deportivo Chivas USA

A major football rivalry that isn't even a year old? I think not. Unless someone offers some good reasons for keeping that section, I'm going to delete it. BlankVerse ∅ 14:10, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

well, they DID play 5 matches [/sarcasm]. Agree with BlankVerse. SpiceMan (会話) 19:51, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
After sleeping on it, I'm actually thinking of keeping the basic "idea", but drastically editing it. First I'd change the section heading to something like "United States Major League soccer rivalries", and then point out that for a fairly new league in a country with little history of pro soccer, that there really aren't any rivalries that come close to those in Europe and Latin America. Then I'd point out that the league is trying very hard to create some rivalries such as CD Chivas vs. Galaxy, but with CD Chivas stuck near the bottom of the ratings and the Galaxy always a perennial contender for league champiion, that that rivalry is not gaining much traction, even if there are very minor instances of bad behavior from fans.
I took a look at the anon's IP because I was hoping to catch an obvious clue that the editing had come from the MLS marketing dept.—no such luck. The IP is a dialup IP for Qwest, which could be from the Denver area, but also anywhere else that Qwest serves. BlankVerse ∅ 03:57, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
I say delete the section and create a new page. Keeping the section would defeat the point of major football rivalries. Such a thing as MSL soccer rivalries might actually belong as part of the MSL page(s) or a new page linked to as such. If there aren't any rivalries as such yet, there is no such point to list them, not considering the fact that most people round the world wouldn't be aware of them if not major. If there was a 'regular' football rivalries page this might fit in, but that would quickly become a list - the football derbies page seems to have crept into being a catch all list for all sorts of rivalries, even non-derby ones. 'Creating' rivalries seems a bit strange to me, but this could be another point of topic for the MLS pages, with what you seem to be pointing out to be difficulties in making the rivalry. - Master Of Ninja 10:47, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Aston Villa v Birmingham City

Surely one of the most passionate derbies in the world, between two of the oldest teams in the world. A rivalry so fierce that every game now has to be played at midday on a Sunday in an effort to stop the two sets of fans tearing each other to shreds. Possibly the biggest local derby in England and without doubt more important than Man Utd v Leeds (who are not even a Premiership club) - what the heck is that game doing in the list?!

Not really come across Villa vs Birmingham City as a major football rivalry before. When I started this i did want world famous rivalries in, but if you can justify why it is world famous, rather than just famous, it might be good to add in. Leeds v Manchester is rather debatable (even considering the non-premiership status). Liverpool vs ManU isn't also really what I call world famous, but certainly a step up from the Leeds 'rivalry'. - Master Of Ninja 17:12, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Austria Vienna vs Rapid Vienna

Can this be considered a world famous major football rivalry? It sounds to me more like a local derby. Should we move this entry to the other article? I think so. Mariano(t/c) 07:19, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Aye Aye to the move. Sebastian Kessel Talk 16:11, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

10 days passed without comments, information moved. For the record:

Austria Vienna vs Rapid Vienna
The most-played derby on the European mainland is the derby of Vienna, which is between SK Rapid and FK Austria and which has taken place up to 275 times! Historically, Austria Vienna was a burgeoise city center team, Rapid Vienna merely the working-class club in the outskirts of Vienna. As one of the few in Austria, both teams have never been relegated out of the highest league. They play against each other since 1911. The match often transitions onto Austria's national ground, Ernst-Happel stadium. The fans from both sides always come prepared for grand, choreographed exhibitions. In some occasions, riots break out. Austrian police takes special security measures whenever the two rivals meet. In the last encounter between Rapid and Austria, the latter club was fined 30.000€ because of lack of security. SK Rapid on the other hand had to pay 10.000€ in compensation to their fans throwing fireworks on the pitch - especially at FK Austria's keeper Didulica - and delaying kick-off for half an hour! This was because in a former derby FK Austria-goalkeeper Joey Didulica hit Axel Lawaree, Rapid's striker No.1, with the knee in the face und injured him seriously. The Rapid-Fans haven't forgotten that so far.
Match Statistics: 275 Matches - 115 Rapid Vienna - 59 Draws - 101 Austria Vienna

Mariano(t/c) 10:42, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Ajax-Feyenoord

Is there place for this match? Is is the biggest en most debated rivalry in the Netherlands. Both clubs being fairly succesful internationally it seems to me there is, but I'm looking at it from a Dutch point of view. Is it important enough by international standards?

I would say a big yes. Sebastian Kessel Talk 21:06, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
My yes is not that big (please, don't quote me without a context), but I would say that it is at least as important as the Uruguayan Derby, or even more, since the Dutch leage is (or was) one of the top 10 in the world. Mariano(t/c) 12:21, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
More to my point, since Nacional-Peñarol is there. :) Sebastian Kessel Talk 16:08, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
Well, that doesn't really add too much for your cause if I think the Yoruguan Derby doesn't belong here... But the article is still short enough for both of them. Mariano(t/c) 16:54, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
True Mariano, very true... :) But I still think the yoruguas and the dutch belong here. Sebastian Kessel Talk 17:00, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
Uruguay does have a couple of World Cups, even from a long time ago. I would say yes to Ajax Feynenoord. I don't watch the dutch league that much but looking at the champions league, I would say dutch teams are contenders... --Threner 23:56, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Rivalry between countries.

How come when the subject of the page says football rivalries and there arent any articles about rivalries between countries. For starters. England Vs Argentina Argentina Vs Brazil England Vs Sweden Honduras Vs El Salvador USA Vs England

Actually Argentina and England football rivalry and Argentina and Brazil football rivalry already exist. Sebastian Kessel Talk 21:48, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
OK, with the first two you were on to something... but Honduras and El Salvador? Come on, most fans wouldn't even be able to name a single player from either side! And I was unaware that England held anything against Sweden or the USA...
Actually, I believe that a Honduras vs. El Salvador clash (qualifier for the 1978 World Cup if I recall) sparked armed conflict so, imho, this should make it noteworthy.Theelf29 23:59, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
With reference to previous, see Football war - I apologise for my error regarding the World Cup, it was qualification for 1970.Theelf29 00:02, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] SL Benfica vs. FC Porto

This SHOULD be in the article, because both clubs are fairly internationally successful, the Portuguese league is one of the top 10 of the world, it's the most important derby in Portugal (it completly stops Portugal to a halt), and if the Uruguayan derby is there, this should be in, too.

Perhaps. At least it deserves to be in the article before other less notable derbies. Mariano(t/c) 06:10, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What are the parameters?

What are the limits to put a match in this article? I think that Universidad de Chile - Colo Colo is good as Peñarol - Nacional. Those teams must have an 80% of the football fans in Chile, and sometimes to no win the championship is allowed by fans if they have a good win over the traditional rivals. Also have some politics in the middle as Universidad de Chile fan-base is considered to be most of left-wing ideas, and Colo Colo have a lot of relations with the right-wings big fishes of Chile such as Pinochet and now Piñera.

Its hard to tell. It was kinda settled that it has ot be a very important derby in its country, but the derby must be also famous around the world. I'm not sure this applies for your example. Mariano(t/c) 06:36, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

It's starting to get imperative to set standards to what should and what should not be in this article. I ask all the participating contributors to express their point of view, so we can define clear parameters; mine is right above tihs message. Mariano(t/c) 14:36, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

It's been a week since my last message and I got no replay. What's more, new derbies have been added, which I believe don't deserve to be here. For instance the Flamengo vs Vasco derby. Another derby that I believe is not international notable is Grêmio vs Internacional. Flamengo has its derby with Fluminense, which is far more important than that with Vasco. I'll remove that one right away. Mariano(t/c) 06:07, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Mariano, are you Brazilian to state Fla vs Flu is "far more important" ? If not, I guess you're stuck with bossa-nova, 50's romantic view of Brazil, which is still indeed common among Europeans or even Americans but unrealistic.You should know that as the article puts it, Flamengo vs Fluminense has its charm, but it is by no means considered since long the main Brazilian and let alone Carioca derby. It is widely known throughout Brazil that Flamengo vs Vasco is what most approaches Boca vs River rivalry and is also considered as such by supporters of both teams. Could you elaborate why you don't think it deserves to be here ? I disagree with "international reputation" of a derby as meaningless, as it is a fact that these views convey an euro-centric approach (as for instance the list of XX century top 100 players). If you recognize Brazil is worth displaying one or more derbies as a country with 5 world cups and a population of 180 M, ie UK, France and Italy combined, I would suggest to leave Brazilians to decide what to put in. Also please consider that unlike Europeans, it is plausible for Brazilians that Flamengo may have two important derbies, with specifics rivalries in each. Unlike European conditions except maybe for London, Brazilian cities such as Rio and São Paulo have many clubs and each have their "Big 4". As such intracity rivalry is less dualistic compared to Argentine or European two-team intra-city or inter-city rivalries. One could argue in the same way that for São Paulo state, Corinthians vs Palmeiras has its charm but undisputably Corinthians vs São Paulo is nowadays the main Paulista derby.In terms of popularity, Flamengo consistently displays in polls an impressive share of a about 19%, compared to 11% to Corinthians and Vasco, São Paulo and Palmeiras tied at around 6/7% (Fluminense is rated at about 3/4% only). Rio's teams are widely known to be popular nationally while São Paulo's teams can count most on their State's demographic weight (about 25% of Brazilian population). So yes, Rio's derbies are nationally the main ones and among these Flamengo vs Vasco, which accounts for more than 2/3 of the supporter basis in Rio, is the one to be singled out if any. Please do not decide on behalf of the locals and make a little google research on the "clássico dos milhões". If you are Brazilian though, I can only deduce you're a Fluminense fan ;-)

You forget that this is not about important derbies in an inportant football country, but Major fooball rivalries. Thus, they are to be well known around the golve, not just be Brazilians, so me being a Brazilian or not has nothing to do here. Why I was against the Flamengo vs Vasco derby? Because I never heard of it, that's all; just two teams form the same city to me. The article is getting kinda long, and less-important derbies have already appeared, so if you have sources stating the importants of the derby at an international level, please provide them. Mariano(t/c) 06:33, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, then I think you're not helping in proposing any methodology for deciding which derbies should be listed, as you wished. It is a good approach first to decide if a derby is considered the top one in its own country and later on screening if it can apply for international "standards". Many people do know about it, but, granted, the level of knowledge about Brazilian football is appalling low. I can tell about it as I'm myself an "international" person (as lots of Brazilians) and have lived more than 15 years in Europe and I had the worst of pains just to keep updated with regular season results (just take for instance L'Equipe web site). So I'm not surprised you barely know anything about Brazilian soccer, except for some folkloric article in a UK soccer magazine about Fla-Flu or documentary in Arte channel (at very best), and I agree you are far from alone in that. Sorry, but your ignorance should not be the parameter. Many people here (sorry, including me) wouldn't dare to rate Celtic vs Rangers as a major rivalry even if both supporters would be ready to kill each other, or your Fernebahce vs Galatasaray angle. If yes, I would say that then you ought to consider Grêmio vs Internacional as a major rivalry though regional even for Brazilian standards. I for one only realized ManU-Liverpool could be considered a derby when in Europe in the 90's and never had "heard of it" also.

As for our point, first I would like to revert your challenge and ask for sources of the importance of the Fla-Flu derby at international level, except of your personal knowledge ;-). Second, maybe this should be left firsthand to be decided by Flamengo supporters and I doubt that you would hear anything else than "Fla-Flu is surely the most charming, but definitely real rivalry is Fla-Vas". Isn't this what this page is about ? Finally, some anecdoctical evidence: do some google research, or better, if you now what orkut (social networking software) is about and have a hint of its huge popularity in Brazil, research some communities. Otherwise you will find some French dvd series about "matches de légende", including Fla-Vasco. In the 1998 Toyota Cup Final between Vasco and Real Madrid (maybe you never heard of this anyway), Flamengo supporters created an ad-hoc ultra section called Fla Madrid to root against Vasco, which found some publicity in Europe, mainly Spain of course; isolated supporters of both teams get regularly killed for teasing each other; both teams compete also at high level on rowing (their original sport as they were both created as "clube de regatas (rowing regatte)", thus entliting the coveted title of champion of "earth and sea")), basketball, futsal, swimming, judo, foosball, button football, etc... in a way probably only matched in this aspect by Madrid vs Barcelona in the world. I'm myself puzzled by what you consider "international" evidence without falling plainly in self-sustaning euro-centrism (do you really consider Japanese rooting for Madrid or Malaysian supporting Manchester an international evidence ?). To be consistent, given the information level available in Europe, you could as well discard all SouthAm derbies but Boca-River. I would thus ask you to kindly reinstate my paragraph or just get rid of the Fla-Flu liner altogether. My point is that both derbies deserve to be listed, in the same way I would list Milan-Inter and Milan-Juve.

First of all, two teams might hate their guts to death, but that doens't make it a Major football rivalry. If you take a look at the other sections in this talk page you will see that I'm generally open to include other derbies, and I understand your point without checking which Brazilian derby is more important because, as you said I might lack the knowledge to go deeper on it. The question is 'what is this article supposed to contain?. I believe, since you asked me for my oppinion, that this page should include well known football rivalries that are more than a local derby (leaving out for instance Roma-Lazio), are internationally aknowledge as an important derby (unlike Austria Vienna vs Rapid Vienna), and that they have a long and colourful history of their fooball rivalry (not like Los Angeles Galaxy vs Club Deportivo Chivas USA). Anithing else should go to local derby, have its own article, or be commented at the club's articles. Otherwise, we will end up having 5 derbies for each major team in each regular to good leage in the world. Mariano(t/c) 16:32, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Ok, then you've got: a) more than local derby: actually Fla-Vasco is arguably the only derby with national clout, the other one being maybe Fla-Corinthians after the added fanbase, but not applying as a derby and lacklustre history. Fla-Flu by no means can comply this criterium. b) international acknowledgment: Fla-Flu and Fla-Vas both comply, granted, with advantage to Fla-Flu for its cliché aspects, starting with its name. If you search for instance this French 4 DVD series "Duels de légende" produced as recently as Q4 05, Fla-Vas is the one featured alonside Boca-River, Barça-Madrid and Milan-Inter so, yes, some people do know internationally about it. c) long and colourful history: no comments here, both derbys comply easily (1913 Flu, 1923 Vasco)and you can trust Brazilians for the colourfulness. Again, at national level and beyond, only Fla-Vasco can claim historic rivalry.

Sorry, I just realized you did not reinserted your derby section. Please do so. Another question then arises; should Flamengo vs Fluminense and Grêmio vs Internacional be here? I have doubs especially with the later. Mariano(t/c) 07:45, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll do so. I tried to avoid being rude and recognized your precedence on this article's organization, that's why. I think your three criteria can be a good guideline. As for the other derbies: Grêmio vs Internacional (Gre-Nal) for me deserves to be in for about the same reasons as the Old Firm or Nacional-Peñarol. You have to know that Southern Rio Grande state is a very special one, comparable to what Texas or say Alsace-Lorraine is for US and France. Or a Portuguese-speaking Uruguay, if you want, that never got independent (though they tried). So it's definitely a local derby even for Brazil (I've never seen a single one be broadcasted on national TV) but somehow is a "national" Gaúcho derby approaching Nacional-Penãrol (to compare it with Boca-River is laughable). This "cultural" angle for me makes the whole difference with, for instance, another similarly prestigious local derby from Minas Gerais' state, Atlético vs Cruzeiro. Fla-Flu, paradoxically, is for me a tougher call, not for itself, but if you accept it, than I believe you would have to open the gate also for one or two other derbies: the so-called Paulista derby from São Paulo's state, be it Corinthians-Palmeiras or Corinthians-São Paulo. Both feature issues close to already discussed: more traditional and charming for the former, more recently competitive for the latter, with the added difficulty that in this case it is almost undecidable (if I had to, I would still stick with Corinthians-Palmeiras as, contrarily to Flu, Palmeiras is tied with São Paulo on fanbase figures, has been a consistent, though unfortunate, national-level powerhouse, São Paulo does not have Vasco's national clout, etc...). So it's your call if you want, on top of the Gre-Nal exception, 1 Brazilian derby or 3/4.

Unfortunately the participation on this article has dropped laterly; it would be nice to know what others, perhaps form other countries, think about the parametres. You suggest to add some more Brazilian derbies, what seams a little bit too much considering there are already 3, and that not even countries like Spain and Italy (which for sure have other also important derbies) have more than one. Having that many Brazilian derbies opens the door to derbies such as Real Madrid - Atletico de Madrid, which you'll agree is important locally and internationally, but that has been kept touside the list for being a Local Derby. I could name tens of derbies that I, personally, consider more important than some of the ones you name, but being an article about the major derbies, I always tried to keep the list tight. Mariano(t/c) 07:34, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

I understand your point and am not trying to push many Brazilian derbies, just warning that you might get some supporter of a Paulista derby claiming for that in the future with some valid arguments. Maybe the more controversial criterium is not international acknowledgment but more-than-local derby. This should mean to me that you can only have one derby per nation, especially if you want to keep the list tight. But then you have to define nation, of course. The Old Firm is for me a local derby even for the UK (ie, do you get many supporters rooting for them in Surrey ?) but a national one to Scotland (and then you have to consider if Scotland is "worth" Uruguay). Milan-Inter are not the most popular clubs in Italy (AFAIK it's Juve and Napoli) so maybe Milan-Juve would rather apply... And I would rather consider Athletic-Real Sociedad (like Gre-Nal) more than Atletico-Real Madrid.

I think Fla-Flu must go out. You can't say that it's a major rivalry if one of the teams don't consider it as their major rivalry. In Chile, Universidad de Chile carries something very similar. They have the unversitary classic against Universidad Católica, that was considered the classic of Chile time ago and was the most important match for those teams. But in the last decades as Universidad de Chile popularity has grown and is now tied with colo-colo in fan base, this is considered the main rivalry and is called the superclassic. It doesn't mean that the rivalry with Universidad Católica has declined... Universidad Católica fans still consider it the big match for their team, but Universidad de Chile fans don't consider it so big as the match against colo-colo. I think that the article needs to be delimited to one by country, the biggest of them all by country, of course not "every country", i definitevely don't care of the biggest match of Vanuatu. The match must have some big history to be accepted and some international recognition. In case of debate of what should be the national derby, the talk page is for it. What do you think?--Bauta 06:58, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Brazilian derbies

We need only Brazilian derby (actually, only one derby per country, but not of all countries). As Flamengo vs Vasco derby has more supporters than the Fla-Flu and the Gre-Nal derbies, it should be kept, and the others must be removed. The Gre-Nal derby can become a separate article. The best way to choose a derby is the number of supporters of each club, as it is neutral, because we can find sources defining the club's approximate number of supporters. I do not like the idea of choosing a derby based only in international recognition because it is too subjective.

So, if no one disagrees, I will remove the Flamengo vs Fluminense and the Grêmio vs Internacional derbies. Regards, Carioca 22:30, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more. Let's keep only one derby per country. —Lesfer (talk/@) 03:52, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Well I agree with the one per country at most. The decision of which one to keep I live to you, garotinhos! Mariano(t/c) 05:39, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Done! ;) —Lesfer (talk/@) 19:05, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Thanks! Carioca 22:11, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I think that is a wrong decision, because the Brazil is 27 States, and the Championship until 1971 was only by State, then, a Corinthians vs Palmeiras is a classic, and Gre-Nal too.Hiroshi-br 14:53, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Italian derby

Anyone else thinks Internazionale vs Juventus (not by chance also known as the Italian Derby) has more historical importance than the Milan Derby? —Lesfer (talk/@) 19:05, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I believe that Juventus vs Milan is the most important Italian derby, but it will probably be better to ask an Italian about it. Carioca 22:11, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
I've lived in Savona and Torino and I used to support Torino FC and AC Milan, therefore I've learned to hate Internazionale and Juventus. Still, if I'm not wrong, I think these two clubs make the greatest Italian derby. I've asked for some Italian help anyway. :) —Lesfer (talk/@) 22:45, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Definitely no, Inter Milan vs Juventus it is known as the "Italian derby" just because the two teams are the only ones to have always played to Serie A. It depends of what you actually mean for "historical importance". --Angelo 22:53, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Angelo is right, this expression was first used by Gianni Brera and means that the two teams have never been relegated, so it's like an "historical football italian derby". Nowadays it isn't felt like an Italian derby, are more important Milan vs Inter and maybe also Milan vs Juventus. With the rise of popularity and success of AC Milan and the decadence of Inter, these match have gained importance despite the Inter matches. However, formally the Italian derby is Inter vs Juventus. --necronudist 23:18, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
We are trying to establish only one derby per country based on rivalry, tradition and number of supporters. So, Milan vs Juventus is the one we're looking for? —Lesfer (talk/@) 02:31, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't know what is "the one". You should consider there are so many derbies here in Italy characterized by strong rivalry, historical and sometimes even political relevance. For example, what about AS Roma-Lazio (the Rome derby)? Inter Milan-Juventus, as well as Juventus-AC Milan and AC Milan-Inter Milan, are all matches of great importance (probably with Juventus-AC Milan as the less important one). Italy is no Scotland, where it's easy to predict which is "the one". Probably you should think about including two or three of these derbies in a paragraph "Italian Serie A derbies". --Angelo 09:54, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
The problem is that including several derbies from several countries would make from this article just another list of local derbies rather than a short review of the most important football rivalries in the world. The most important and representative of the Italian football should be selected. Mariano(t/c) 10:37, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
I never said of talking about all the local derbies, but just to categorize this article according to countries. For example, we could add sections for Italian, French, English and Scottish derbies, in which a short introduction on the most relevant ones is done, and possibly including references to articles covering every single quite relevant derby (such as Rome derby). I think it would be much better than choosing arbitrarily "the most important derby". --Angelo 11:44, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Well guys, let's make it easy :-) Formal "italian derby" is Inter vs Juventus also if it isn't the most important rivalry in Italy; like I wrote, with the rise of AC Milan and the decadence of Inter, AC Milan matches against Juventus and Inter gained importance. All the Italian newspapers refer to Inter vs Juventus as the "Italian derby" 'cause traditionally it is, not because it is felt as a derby of Italy (eg.: the best Italian clubs, or the clubs with more rivalry). Instead, if you want a "real" Italian derby and not a "formal" italian derby...well it is almost impossible to elect one. There are several derbies all with the same importance. --necronudist 12:42, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
I agree. I would titly the section Italian Derby, and at its end I would add something like "Other important Italian derbies are Juventus vs Milan, Roma vs Lazio, and X vs Y". Mariano(t/c) 07:37, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Now I'm confused, everyone agreed to have only one derby per country and we've got Roma vs Lazio (definitely a local derby) despite not even being able to decide between Juve-Milan and Inter-Milan (and to be frank even didn't undestand why you lost so many time on Inter-Juve with a formality). If everyone agrees I'll revert it(will wait your feedback). Let's stick only with Milan-Inter as apparently it still is more fierce than Juve-Milan. Or, maybe in an Italian way, maybe we should stick with none as it is undecidable ;-) 200.242.60.132 02:31, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
You are correct. Only one derby per country. It is better to follow Mariano's suggestion (read it above). Anyway, the Rome derby needs to be removed, as it is just a local derby. Carioca 03:04, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Great. I'm surprised that you have maintained Inter-Juve, but it's our Italian friends call. Sounds me at best as as top derby from the 60's, more like Fla-Flu but maybe there is a case for it (at the time I think that Juve-Toro was also tops). Understood this topic is more about real rivalry, but guess that according to necronudist this seems like a "political" decision to fill the undecision. I'm surprised to see that at the end Milan-Juve is not considered the a main derby (not even mentioned as a link) but again that's my turn of backing off from "international recognition"....Mpbb 15:57, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Everton vs. Liverpool

A list of football derbies with a link to this page includes the Everton vs. Liverpool derby but it is not here. This is quite suprising because although until recently known as an amicable rivalry (the 1980's cup final with both sets of supporters singing "Merseyside" together in celebration of the city's two great footballing teams), it has become fiercer over the years. Also it is one of the oldest in English football as well, Everton formed in 1878 and Liverpool in 1892. The grounds are within a mile of each other, and it is difficult to escape from either club if you live in Liverpool. I see Man Utd vs. Liverpool are included; this is what I call a "sucess derby" - derby brought about by a team's sucess, and not a "true derby" - teams from the same city battling it out. This is one of the truest derbies in football and should be an automatic entry into this list. Agree/Disagree? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Eradicus (talk • contribs) .

Disagree. We need only the major derby of the most important football countries, and Everton vs. Liverpool is just a local derby. Carioca 22:00, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Disagree as per above, and also the derby is not strictly a "success derby" given the animosity between the two cities... which could have an article all to itself. NaLaochra 17:40, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Agree on the grounds that in England, Liverpool vs Manchester United is not classed as a derby. It is a heated rivalry but in England geography is all important in determining a derby and considering that, in terms of titles won, Liverpool {1st} and Everton {4th} is the nation's biggest derby. The piece on Manchester United vs Liverpool is poorly written by someone who has not properly studied local rivalry. The United vs Liverpool rivalry does not go back 60 years, to 1947 as suggested. It has to be remembered that in 1947 Liverpool and Manchester United were not as successful as their respective cross city rivals Everton and Manchester City {even though Liverpool were champions that year} Manchester United did not usurp City as the more successful team in Manchester until the 1950s while it wasn't until the 1990s that United eventually surpassed Everton as the second most titled team in England. The Liverpool vs United piece is a bunch of 21st Century reworking of history.

I'd have to agree that the Everton v Liverpool takes precedent over Man Utd Liverpool.In terms of games won Everton and Liverpool are the two most succesfull english clubs. And theyre less than a mile away from each other. Infact they're basically the same club with Liverpool coming out of Everton, Liverpool FCs real name is actually Everton Athletic FC. This unique history creates probably the most famous derby in the world. For the last 60 years its been the biggest derby in England, who can forget the Merseyside FA cup Finals of the 80s.

If Liverpool Man Utd is heated so is Everton Man Utd. In recent years Arsenal v Man U and Chelsea v Liverpool have become bigger club rivalries. Man u weren't even in the top division in the 70s to compete in the derby, and when Man Utd have been succesfull like recently, Liverpool largely haven't and have not been competing, while when Liverpool and Everton have been successful it's often been at the same time and in direct competition with each other.

Its worth noting that the people who have refused this notion aren't english and probably don't have a clear understanding of English football.

Jim

Have to totally agree with Jim. Liverpool vs Manchester United did not become the huge game it is until United surpassed Everton as the second most crowned champion of England and that didn't happen until the 1990s.

[edit] Brann vs. Rosenborg

I added this, but after reading the discussion page and the other major rivalries listed thoroughly, I am in doubt whether it should be included or not. The Norwegian Premier League ranks as number 20 in the world with regard to attendance, on par with Portugal, Belgium and Switzerland. The last 10-15 years both Norwegian club sides and the Norwegian international team have done well internationally. I've removed this, but someone may add it again if they feel that it fits in:

Definitely not a world renowned major football rivalry. Mariano(t/c) 11:05, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Neither are some of the others, but Norwaycompared to Portugal and Turkey (though not to Austria) seems significantly smaller and shouldn't be added, that is unless the scope of the list isn't widened a lot in the future.
Brann vs Rosenborg
Brann and Rosenborg are, and have for half a century always been, the two biggest Norwegian teams in terms of attendance. Brann are based in Bergen, while Rosenborg are based in Trondheim, and the matches reflect a bitter rivalry between the two cities. Correct or not, the inhabitants of Bergen are considered optimistic and passionate (critics say cocky), while people from Trondheim are considered trustworthy and sturdy (critics say boring). This is thus not only a clash of the two major Norwegian clubs, but also a clash of mentalities, as well as a clash between two notoriously rivalling cities that both were Norway's capital in the Middle Ages. Rosenborg are normally grossly insulted from Brann's stands, while Trondheim's Adresseavisen have the habit of making verbal tackles in hip-height on Brann and Bergen.
Brann won their first-ever league title away in Trondheim in 1962, at the same time sending Rosenborg down and taunting the home crowd by playing without shoes the last 15 minutes. Rosenborg have, however, got back at them manyfold by being by far the most successful side since.
Other Norwegian rivalries exist, such as the derbies Molde vs. Rosenborg and Vålerenga vs. Lillestrøm, but although being major clashes, they're not quite at the level of Brann vs. Rosenborg.

[edit] Mess

This article has become a mess. What is the purpose of Local derby, and what of this article? The issue was already discussed in this talk page, and a certain agreement was settle. But since a couple of months ago that consent has been completely ignored, and more and more minor derbies are added to this article every day.

It is perhaps time to revise the inclusion parameters. --Mariano(t/c) 18:06, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I suggest limiting the derbies to one derby per country, and include only major countries, like it was before. Each one of the other derbies can be moved to their own article. --Carioca 20:24, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree with that. Pitty only you answered to my message. If we get no new suggestions, I would like to trim down the article a week after my first post, dated on feb 23. --Mariano(t/c) 12:34, 26 February 2007 (UTC)


Since there were no replays to the proposal of leaving only Major rivalries in the article instead of having a number of local and minor football rivalries, I will leave only the rivalries that had been concented in previous conversations.--Mariano(t/c) 16:36, 5 March 2007 (UTC)


It could be also good to trim down the text of some of the derbies, for instance Barcelona-Real Madrid and Liverpool-Manchester United. 4 or 5 paragraphs should be good enough. --Mariano(t/c) 17:01, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Glentoran vs Linfield

This derby as the "Big Two Riavry" is reconised by football fans worldwide. Attracting fans from England, USA and Australia. It is seen as one of the most competitive football matches in the world. It is highly more competitive than most fixtures here, possibly apart from Rangers/Celtic. I do belive that it is a Major Football Rivialry, it usually decides which team wins the league, goes to Europe and so on.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.144.36.68 (talk • contribs)

Perhaps you could provide srouces of the world-wide importance of the rivalry. --Mariano(t/c) 22:56, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Djurgården vs AIK

That's the two teams from Stockholm that has been rivals since the early 1900's.

Why shall you have Djurgården vs AIK? They have been rivals in both Icehockey and Football. The derbies is a classic game in Sweden, cause they are both founded on the same year (1891) and Djurgården have 11 Allsvenskan goals, while AIK have 10.

The Djurgården vs AIK derbies are some of the most hatefull games in Scandinavia. That's because of that i wrote.

If you don't whant to have it, it shuld be a problem that you only takes the bigger teams in Europe.

I'm Swedish so I'm sory for my English! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Flexivist (talk • contribs) 21:35, 14 May 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Al Ahly vs. Zamalek

This seams to be an important derby, though I'm not sure it is a world major football rivalry. I trully don't have much knowledge on the Arab countries; it could be good to include one Arabic derby if notorious. Any feedback? Thanks --Mariano(t/c) 16:23, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] SL Benfica vs. FC Porto

SL Benfica vs FC Porto just added.

Ratio Essendi 22:04, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] SL Benfica - FC Porto

Up until April 1st 2007, Benfica and Porto have played more than 244 matches and not 229 as the article states. I have been investigating this and other portuguese head-to-head and though I am still lacking some seasons it already adds up to 244. I have made a similar comment on the portuguese wiki, but I guess this is precisely the problema of this model: a error gets spread very quickly because incorrect sources are used.

Regards, jorgecat@sapo.pt

[edit] Rayados Vs. Tigres ?

In the mexican league there is the America-Chivas derby and also the Clasico Regiomontano [2] which is worthy of note.

Amendezg 16:06, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Shels vs Bohs

where the fuck is the shelbourne bohemian match every year i kick the shite out of the bohs fans and enjoy it more than any other clubs in the area i'd say add it —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.42.121.191 (talk) 19:01, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Massive cleanup required

As noted elsewhere on this talk page and via the banner at the top of the article, this page needs a lot of cleanup. I have a few suggestions to what can be done.

  • Sources. As Wikipedia is about Verifiablity, not truth, every rivalry should have at least one source confirming it is a rivalry. Any item that doesn't should be removed from the article.
  • Article length. The article is very long. I think each listing should be limited to a couple of paragraphs. Anything considerably longer than that can be split off into its own article if it has enough reliable sources.
  • POV. As is common for sporting topics, the article needs to be scanned for tone.

There's other things that could be changed to make the page neater, for example the rivalries could be listed by country or something like that, but the items above are the things that need the most immediate attention IMO. ●BillPP (talk|contribs) 18:02, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, I decided to go ahead with that clean-up myself. It took around 30 hours and I don't want to hunt for sources on rivalries ever again, but the article's in a much better state. ●BillPP (talk|contribs) 23:22, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Nice work. It's watchlisted so I'll try to stop it falling into disrepair again. WATP (talk) • (contribs) 23:49, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fenerbahce vs Galatasaray

Turkish Football Federation joined UEFA in 1962, so i think we must put this heading -or headline whatever-, under Europe (east) category not under Asia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Iticiadam (talk • contribs) 13:00, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Dida flare.jpg

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BetacommandBot (talk) 21:51, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Benfica vs. Sporting

The article currently states under Benfica vs. Porto: "The biggest clash in Portuguese football is the one between SL Benfica and Sporting CP..." So why isn't it up there in addition to/instead of Benfica vs. Porto? I don't know enough about the rivalry to write an effective piece, so I'm hoping someone else out there will be able to contribute. Monkey Bounce (talk) 06:37, 27 May 2008 (UTC)