Talk:Major League Gaming

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Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on 28 November 2006. The result of the discussion was keep.

Contents

[edit] Initial comments

Most, if not all, of the information can be found by visiting the official site. We should cut most of the article and add more background information. --Robert Harrisontalk contrib 15:24, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Agreed Robert. Currently the page shows "Possible Copyright Violation." This doesn't have to be so. The page can be reworked into a useful article. MLG staff will probably be happy to co-operate on this.

Tsquared is infamous after his long-term gaming success. He is one of the bigger gaming figures which is the reason why he has been signed. This article can grow very large if enough background information is written.

It can't be copyright because the only thing it resembles is my other work on Wikipedia.

[edit] temp article up!

I have decided to create a temporary article, it is very stubby though. --Robert Harrisontalk contrib 05:16, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Nice, but it needs more context on what MLG actually is. I've changed it to say "video games" rather than just "gaming" (I thought online gambling after I read the first sentence), but it needs a little more about how it works. You play against other people, right? For prizes or money or just for fun and position in a league? Also, the logo image is very poor quality. Is there a better image available? NicM 09:39, 23 December 2005 (UTC).
I found a better logo. I'm going to do some more improvements on the page and add more content later on. JohnC1987 11:25, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Sections to add

Add stuff to this list that you feel is relevant.

  • History
  • Previous Seasons
    • Previous Event Turnouts
  • Current Season
  • Pro players. Mini biogs maybe? Maybe a link to a stub about each player?
  • Misc. issues e.g. look to future and potential for expansion/increase in exposure.
  • Video on Demand. Bit of detail on this, since it is unique in console gaming.

Delete from this list when section added. --JohnC1987 22:10, 23 December 2005 (UTC) Okay, first of all, there is waaay too much history on the sum 10 big teams over the course of MLG gaming history.

  • Yea we need to add Pro teams, a little bit about their success/history for the big teams e.g., but teams like Team 3D need seperate wikipages internally linked instead of using excess space in MLG. Its like talking about Michael Jordan's era in an Article on the NBA.

For instance, if you'll look at the Wiki article on Star Wars, they have exactly what I'm talking about.

[edit] Professional Players

I have started a list of professional players on one of my workspace pages. An interested person would find it here. The list is short right now due to time constraints. If anybody wants to make further use of it, please go right ahead and do so.--Robert Harrisontalk contrib 02:12, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

I'll work on it. Thanks for what you've managed to do so far. Bluestrike 2 22:19, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Possible Sections to add

  • Publicity - 60 minutes, mtv, wallstreet journal etc
  • Future Plans
  • MLG Season tour stops
  • Log of episodes on USA

I just did extensive work on the 2008 season and the 2008 prize money, plus I added footnotes so we could get some good references started. I'm not sure that I like the table I made for the prize money, but it was better than saying "the prize money is listed at this website! *link*" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.238.149.150 (talk) 00:52, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Overhaul

Since this is pretty much a stub article, I'm working on completely revamping it while maintaing as much of the work already done so far. Instead of doing so on the main page, I'm doing it in my User Talk, so you can check it out here. I welcome any help you can provide. Bluestrike 2 01:51, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] vandalism

Someone vandalized MTV guests, the categories, etc. today 12-03-06

Someone listed their own name in the pro section on two different occassions. I noticed it both times and was endeavored to fix it because I had put a lot of contribution into the page.

edit - I fixed it - arrashju

someone vandalised the publicity section.(tsquared a basd kid who gets his ass kicked and ripp3d v2 is not a professional gamer.

edit- I fixed it - chaosTheory_s3

someone listed their name and the names of their friends as a signed team. I cleaned it up -Cheesey- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.81.233.229 (talk) 13:55, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Additions/Fixing Things

Final Boss is signed to a 3 year 1 million contract, not the 1 year salaries that are described in the article. Specifics of the contract are not publicly known (what they get each year), except that at the end of 3 years each player will have a quarter million dollars. Also, there is no citation for this information.

take out the "rampant speculation" on whether or not they are throwing games. Speculation by its very nature is ussually unfounded. Posting a rumour that has no validity undermines the concept of wikipedia and basing things on fact. AlphaZealot 17:57, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dear god...

This subject is absolutely notable, but this is just a terrible article. It's one of the worst advertisements I've seen on WP that manages to still exist. -- Kicking222 22:29, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I see no reason that this article should be deleted but I do think that it needs some serious cleanup.

I have gone ahead and removed items and placed them into Talk:Major League Gaming/Removed. Let's hope that this goes well. :: Colin Keigher (Talk) 00:27, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

quote: "By raising video game competition to the level of professional sport, the company is creating a sports media business that provides players, developers, publishers, media partners, and advertisers a unique connection to the video game lifestyle enjoyed by 168 million Americans. With the support of major sponsors, MLG operates a pro tour that makes several stops in major cities across the U.S., exclusively featuring the best gamers in the world. MLG produces a variety of online and broadcast-quality programming that showcases those who are involved in the league."

I don't think this bit of text qualifies for NPOV, especially when it comes to "exclusively featuring the best gamers in the world". I hope someone can rewrite this to a more neutral section? -- DJiTH 13:34, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Colin Deleted everything

I put a whole lot of effort into this page and colin k. deleted everything. The article was 10 times as long as it is right now with History and everything. But slowly and surely, Colin stalked my activity and deleted everything I tried to contribute to this article. Therefore I give up until everyone finally understands the significance and notability of MLG. This article WAS actually supposed to do just that in some ways, but whatever, I give. user:arrashju

I didn't violate any policies by going through edits. For one thing, these edits are open to everybody. And the other thing was that I saw a number of links to other pages that reflected the same problems that this page had previously. Once I put two and two together, I started to mull over your other contributions and decided to undertake the task of having them subjected to a consensus. There was nothing wrong in my actions.
Also, nothing was deleted. Take a look at Talk:Major League Gaming/Removed and you'll see the stuff that was removed. :: Colin Keigher (Talk) 08:30, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
I have to wonder why some information that is on the removed page was removed. Such as dates and records of previous events including results of the events. What is wrong with this information appearing on the Wiki for MLG? I'm not trying to defend it, I'm just trying to learn why. AnujSuper9 00:50, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
I think Colin actually did a good job. Before his edits, the article was a mere chaotic advertisement. Now, it is getting near to what it should be. -- DJiTH 14:13, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
The level of detail in the article after your work, Arrashju, would be appropriate for MLGs website, but not here. For example, including advertisements when naming the sponsors is inappropriate in an encyclopedia. Including the results of every MLG event would be just as inproper as trying to include the results of every NFL game ever played on the National Football League page. The glowing descriptions of MLG activities were also far to POV (that is, not nuetral) and needed to be trimmed down. If you don't already work for MLG, I suggest that you offer your services for their website, because you have great passion for it and they could use some help.
I hope you continue contributing to Wikipedia, as we need people with passion, writing skill, and dedication to the process. --Habap 16:46, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Deleted Sentence

"This is against the custom of e-Sports, where players are generally signed to clubs, rather than competitions." That is a completely opinionated and unnessasary sentance. Without a source it deserves no place (and sources need to be added to much of the information that is currently there). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 164.107.94.161 (talk) 19:01, 17 January 2007 (UTC).

Would the term 'team franchise' suffice then? There is a notion of console games being used against tradition; "Unlike other electronic sports leagues, the league specifically targets console gaming.". This is also a very notable difference between the MLG and every other (conventional) e-sports competition. This is not opiniated, it is a fact. -- DJiTH 19:18, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Saying "Unlike other electronic sports leagues, the league specifically targets console gaming" is an okay sentance provided you have a source (which wont be difficult considering MLG has continually mentioned that they are the worlds first console only league). However, mentioning 'team franchise' has the same fault as the previous sentance which was removed. You are not taking any thought into just what is being said. When you speak of franchises or clubs you are typically referring to sponsorships, which is differant than being signed by a league or association of some sort. Before you can include this sentance, you must first prove that 1)by tradition leagues do not sign players. and 2)being signed to a league prohibits being a member of a club/franchise/sponsorship. The 1st point can't nessasarly be proven either way, because as you mention, MLG is the first console only league, so it can by itself set tradition. By the same token, other console leagues are no older than 6-7 years old, hardly old enough to set a tradition and firm business strategy. As for the 2nd point, in MLG's case, you have a number of members who are both signed by MLG and also have other contracts with outside forces. Team Carbon is a member of the Carbon gaming clan (read franchise, club, etc, with its own sponsorships). Final Boss is under contract with Gilber Arenas and the members recieve free stuff through his own sponsors (adidas for example). Both these teams are signed to 250,000 contracts with MLG. Anyways, I think you are beginning to catch my drift, the sentance has many unproven and provacative implications. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 164.107.47.53 (talk) 05:21, 21 January 2007 (UTC).
I think that in this case it's a matter of proving it the other way around. Proving that there is a competition other than MLG that signs competitors would be basis for removal of the sentence. -- DJiTH 20:49, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Under your logic I could say "MLG is the best and most profitable professional gaming circuit regardless of platform". However, this violates some of the laws of logic, specifically that it is responsability of the person making the claim to also provide evidence. The 'god' debate is a good example, it is not up to scientists to disprove god, but up to believers to prove. Just as I can make the claim that green-goo-monkey-rabits exist. Its not up to you to disprove me, afterall how can you have evidence to disprove something that doesn't exist, but it is up to me to prove it. Similarly the sentance has the flaw when it mentions "custom" as if it is an unwritten code of an old sociaty, "custum" can hardly be used on companies that are as new as these gaming organizations, especially when you consider each one is taking a differant business model for its success. Same goes for "generally signed to clubs", Ive seen many players signed to a sponsor and not a club, especially in the world of Halo. Final Boss dropped 3D. MoB, FBI, and as of about6 months ago Carbon are the only associations that can be considered clubs in the world of H2 (maybe a few lower level ones as well, but these are the most notable), however, they are not clubs and are more sponsors, or part of a community. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 164.107.47.209 (talk) 00:25, 22 January 2007 (UTC).
I can show you hundreds of examples of players signed to clubs, proving that the custom exists. You can only show one example of players signed to a league. Hence, signing to a league goes against the custom. Your logic fails, not mine. I understand that you are trying to prevent MLG from catching bad press, but that's just the way it is. The notability is clear, this is the way the MLG distinguishes itself from traditional competitions. -- DJiTH 20:06, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Considering most of your examples will be from a PC league, then no, you can't actually prove that the custom exists in console gaming to sign players to clubs. It isn't so much as bad press as it is a biased statement (and unnessasary) to mention the customs of other leagues (PC). The better question is, why are you mentioning that MLG is "going against the custom of esports"? I can show you around 80 examples of players signed to a league, actually, just because it is the same league doesn't discount that multiple players are signed to it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 164.107.234.60 (talk) 00:27, 24 January 2007 (UTC).
If your 80 examples of players signed to a league are all from the same league, it proves the point. No other e-sports league signs players directly. MLG is operating on the model used by Major League Soccer, which probably accounts for the name similarity. --Habap 13:29, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Ohh, okay, well we should just use the jist of the phrasing from MLS and apply it here, which I've now done. Of course, I'm sure the arguement may be made that MLG is not the most successful esports league, but considering its value is at over $35 million in investments, not even mentioning sponsorships, then I don't think you can make any arguement that MLG is bigger and more successful than CPL, WSVG, etc. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 164.107.234.60 (talk) 17:44, 24 January 2007 (UTC).
That's not the point, it doesn't matter who is 'big' and who is not. The whole world uses a certain standard, MLG, the new kid on the block so to speak, uses a standard that greatly differs from that. I don't think the addition of "What accounts for the leagues large succes in comparison to other esports leagues is that it signs and supports professional players, instead of relying on clubs to support players." accounts for a NPOV statement, especially since the opposite is closer to the truth. For instance, take a look at the controversy that this causes. -- DJiTH 20:57, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
I don't think the situation you linked to at all discredits the sentance I switched things with. What the WSVG did would be similar to a prominant soccer club/organization attempting to sign a deal with a player from MLS, which would go against a contract that a player with MLS signed. Just how is MLG the new kid on the block? What are you comparing MLG to? CPL is essentially the only other prominant league that was founded way before MLG (1997 or 1998 if memory serves me), and it is based computer gaming (which came into light before consoles did, consoles on contrast didn't really come into competitive caliber play until 2001 and 2002, which is when MLG started up). The sentance from MLS that I referred to earlier read "Arguably, the most important reason for the long-term success of MLS is because of its single entity organization and ownership structure. In this organization structure, revenues are shared amongst the league, and player contracts are negotiated by the league. " Now, what is the only differance that wouldn't apply to MLG? the term "long-term" but that can be substituted with "short-term". Also your case "it doesn't matter who is big and who is not" is short sighted considering that "big" usually equates to success (and this is one of those situations where it does), the size and money that the league controls is an important factor. Currently the sentance reads with a negative spin, I agree it shouldn't nessasarly be positive, but there is no need to have a negative connotation especially when there business model has been met with much success.
Please sign your comments. WSVG did not try to sign a deal, but a standard media release form, which competitors in all televised sports normally have to sign. The MLG then did not allow their players to sign the form, in a probable attempt to sabotage the (globally) more successful WSVG competition. The strategy being not allowing the signed players to appear in other (media covered) competitions. As a direct result, the Halo 2 competition at the WSVG finals was never televised. As far as dates are concerned, CPL, WCG, ESWC all predate MLG. Also, as far as measuring success in terms of money is concerned, the MLG only survives currently due to $35 million of venture capital investments, the company is not profitable. The sentence in question was neither negative nor positive, as it should be. -- DJiTH 15:08, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
I need to figure out how to make an account, my computer keeps messing up the cookies so I can't be logged on between pages. A standard media release form would not have included such a broad clause as the one in WSVG. "probably an attempt to sabotage" doesn't make any sense, and considering this is WSVG's first year, calling it more succesful simply because it has tournaments in other countries doesn't make any sense. There is a negative spin to that sentance, mainly because of the word choice "against" in relation to "custom", which makes it seem like it was written from someone who is against MLG and in support of CPL or other such business models. You should acknowledge your own bias in this subject as well, considering you seem to be deeply rooted in the competitive PC scene (I admit I am biased toward console/MLG, my solutions partly reflect the bias, but so do yours). Also, considering the way WSVG handled things at first, I don't think you can blatently say MLG was the only poor decision maker. They were given a form to sign the day before the tournament after they were already at the venue and in their hotels, doesn't that tell you something? After they decided not to sign it, they were threatened to be thrown out of the hotel, have their plane tickets revoked, and were told they could not be in the tournament. Now, I can understand the not being in the tournament, but revoking a plane charter and threatening to leave kids aged as young as 16 without their parents in New York city with no place to stay is unresponsable and incompetant. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 164.107.234.60 (talk • contribs) 19:09, 25 January 2007

We really need to come to a sort of agreement here, before this ends up in an editing war. The current edit is: "The league also signs individual players and teams, as opposed to the custom in e-Sports, where players are usually signed to independent clubs. This practice provides players with management and a salary, but sometimes leads to conflicts with other competitions." This reads with neither a negative nor a positive spin and to me is a complete statement. It says what distinguishes MLG from the custom in e-Sports and mentions an advantage and disadvantage alike. 164.107.234.60 (talk · contribs) keeps changing it back to "The league also signs individual players and teams a practice which provides players with management and a salary, but sometimes leads to conflicts with other competitions." or similar statements. I think this is an incomplete statement, since, to someone with no knowledge of the subject, this would read like it is the common practice for leagues to sign players in e-Sports. Considering that MLG is the only league that does this, and that all over the world in e-Sports, players are signed to clubs, independent of game or competition, I think that this notion can't be missing from the article. -- Laurens Hoek 12:42, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

It's inane to say "a practice which provides players with management and a salary", since clubs also would provide management and a salary. The important thing here is that having the league sign them is different. Analysis of whether this is better or worse does not belong in this article unless someone has written about it elsewhere (i.e., no original research). --Habap 13:48, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Clarification on the WSVG issue

Wanted to add a note here to clarify what exactly happened at the WSVG finals and why there was a problem. No one on this page seems to have it right. The reason why there was a problem was not because the WSVG was asking players to sign a "standard" television release form. They were asking the players to sign a release form that included wording that would give the WSVG the PERPETUAL right to the images and likenesses of the players for the use in television and any other marketing, forever. There were standard released forms for television that many of the competitors had already signed. This was something entirely different slipped under the hotel room doors of the players on the morning of the competition, likely in an attempt to force the contract upon the players before they could realize the full consequences of signing over their images to the WSVG. The players that had already signed deals with Major League Gaming did not like the wording in the contracts and took them to MLG to have their lawyers review the document, which is something MLG provides to the players for free. After reviewing the "release forms", their full meaning was revealed to the teenagers and young adults involved in the Halo competition and many of them agreed with the advice that MLG's legal counsel provided them: not to sign the form. The president of the WSVG reacted angrily and threatened not only to ban the players from competing in the event, but also to revoke their hotels and return flights if they did sign the papers. Major League Gaming then threatened to sue on behalf of their contracted players and eventually the WSVG officials backed down. They did NOT have any legal ground to stand on, especially on threatening to revoke previously earned prizes if they did not agree to sign their own likenesses over forever. In the end, the WSVG agreed to change the "release forms" to remove any wording that would give them ownership of the images of the players and the president of the WSVG delivered a written apology to the players and the fans for their poor decisions and bad behavior. This letter was published online but was later removed as a courtesy to the WSVG president to avoid future embarassment. So to clarify for the sake of certain users like DJITH, who continues to show their extreme bias against Major League Gaming... no. MLG did not attempt to sabotage the WSVG's event. MLG was approached by the players that they represent who had concerns over the wording in these forms. MLG acted as legal counsel for those players and based on what the players, the lawyers and eventually even the WSVG agreed was UNFAIR wording in the contract, the players were advised not to sign the form. The WSVG, under threat of legal action, agreed that their form was unfair and modified it to protect the rights of the players involved, allowing everyone to compete. The WSVG was the body that was in the wrong and the ones that were doing something underhanded to take advantage of the players. MLG stepped in and protected the rights of the Halo 2 competitors, despite the criticism aimed at them from the hordes of uninformed PC gaming fans. So please attempt to get all of the facts straight before accusing MLG of sabotage and manipulation. The WSVG was wrong in this instance. MLG was right. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Odinwolf (talk • contribs) 23:12, 2 February 2007 (UTC). Odinwolf 23:13, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Clean up stuff

1. This article could use a lot of work. The part where it labels pro player contracts could be simplified to a list with citations, its current format is confusing and easy to misread. 2. For the 2006 season, as well as 2005 season, Gamestop was a sponsor of MLG. During 2006 it should read Gamespot/EBGames. 3. For the 2004 season (or maybe it was 2003, but it doesn't really matter, just add this to past games) N-Gage was a sponsor of the league and Tony Hawk Pro Skater was one of the games for the system (I think there may have been others). 4. Eventually the media section should be discarded in its entirety, it is to much to keep up with and irrelevent for most people.

[edit] Note about formatting

MLG stands for Major League Gaming. So "Games in the MLG" would read "games in the major league gaming." That doesn't make sense. I know a lot of other eSports bodies have names where this would work, like the CPL. "Games in the Cyberathelete Professional League" would work. For MLG however, it should read "Games ON the MLG Pro Circuit" or "games found at MLG events" or something of that nature. I made the change on this page and hopefully this standard can be followed elsewhere. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Odinwolf (talk • contribs) 22:55, 2 February 2007 (UTC). Odinwolf 22:55, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] criticism

a criticism section is needed —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.103.83.102 (talk • contribs)

[edit] North America’s first professional videogame league

Why does this article state that when cpl was founded five years before mlg. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.214.105.22 (talk) 07:17, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

  • It was Digx (talk) 22:58, 26 March 2008 (UTC)