Talk:Mairu

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[edit] Mairi

What is that Mairi? --Error 01:36, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

It's surely an error (vandalism?). Mairi means nothing that I know (maybe a personal name???). --Sugaar 15:36, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I have to correct myself: mairi seems the Souletine version of mairu (see below). anyhow, better wait a couple of days before re-editing. --Sugaar 08:54, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dubious claims deleted

Deleted the following:

Mairu means "moor" in Basque. This term is used with the sense of 'non-christian' to refer to former civilizations or megalithic monuments.

In parts of Spain, any ancient monument was popularly attributed to the age of Moorish domination.

Mairu doesn't mean Moor in Basque, Moor is said Moru (probably from es Moro). The origin of the term Mairu is not known, as happens with other names of Basque mythology, like the main deity, Mari. They were possibly introduced in Neolithic/Chalcolithic times.

What is a fact is that Mari is translated sometimes as La Mora in the Aragonese and other romance versions of the same myths (Upper Aragonese spoke Basque in the Early Middle Ages, Aragon itself is a Basque name). Simmilarly, it's possible (though I'm unsure right now) that the cromlechs or stone circles are attributed to the Moors in Upper Aragon, where they also exist. Yet it's much more likely that this is aromanization of the Basque term than vice versa, along with lost of conscience of Basque ancestry and strong historical contact with Muslims.

There is a very slight possibility that Mairu could derivate from lat. Maurus (pl. Mauri). But Moors never were even close to the Pyrinees in times of Roman domination (and later Latin was lost among Basques). This has been claimed by some (ignorance is daring) but is not commonly accepted.

Check my ref for mairu. Neither Morris nor 3000 have moru.

About megaliths, es:Moro says:

Muchas veces se encuentra en nombres de muchos de los lugares prehistórico de la peninsula como la La cueva del Moro de Olvena en Aragón, La cueva del Moro de Tarifa, La cueva del Moro de Gajano, La cueva del Moro de Albacete y un largo etcétera.

Is that enough? I seem to recall some text by Washington Irving to this point.

Error 21:35, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I checked the dictionary (2000) and it does that: it translates moor as mairu. Yet nobody uses "mairu" in daily Basque comunication but moru or, more politically correct, mogrebiar, morokar, algeriar, etc. The 2000 dictionary (or the 3000, for the case) seems to have some dubious things, even if it is a reference.

I checked in Berria and there are 34 results with the meanings of gigantes, mythological mairu, moros y cristianos, Medieval moors, Philippine Moros (this seems wrong) and modern North Africans. This mixes mairu and morito. There is only 1 result with moru. There are 4 results with moro (in the "Moor" sense). Maybe in your environment, moru is frequent, but the traditional word, which is what matters in this article, is mairu.

--Error 00:18, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

It is still arguable that mairu is used for Moor in any real life enviroment. I can take that moro is alternative to moru (and maybe even more correct). --Sugaar 07:06, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

I doubt it is arguable. Anyway, it was used traditionally and that is what matters in this article. --Error 21:56, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

But the books I have on mythology don't say the same:

José Dueso, in La Primitiva Religión de los Vascos (The Primitive Religion of the Basques) mentions them as mairi (sic) (I could not recall that detail earlier). It says:

Frequently mistaken with the Jentilak, the Mairiak are genii known only in Lower Navarre, having superhuman force and that, like Barandiaran says, "for soem is a very old human type that lived in our country". Others identify them as lamiak but masculinized.

They are attributed the construction of some buildings and megalithic monuments (...)

Mairiak are also known in some stories of Zuberoa gathered by Cerquand. It's said there that they meet with the lamiak in the field of Mendi one day every week to have fun with them (this reminds of akelarre, actually) until Errolan (Roland) expelled them from the region.

Interesting syncretism with Roland who in French epic battled the Moors. --Error 00:18, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Don't hallucinate: Roland is typical of Basque mythology (sometimes confused with Sanson). In real life and in the original Frankish (French) sources, it's clear he was killed by Basques. --Sugaar 07:06, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

I can't find right now other materials that I've read but the case is that the Mairuak or Mairiak (also Maidi maybe) do seem to have been known also in the Bidasoa area (as Intxisuak) and probably in the areas later romanized, like Aragon, where all legends are very simmilar to those of Basque mythology but with Spanish names such as moros for mairuak or La Mora for Mari. This La Mora translation is also found in Araba but it always looks more like a rendition into romance looking for a simmilar sounding name.

I know nothing about the legends of Andalusia but that a cave is associated with Moors by mere name has little to do with full-fledged legends, quite coherent through all the Pyrenean region and, more important, out of Spanish territory (Northern Basque Country, that belongs to France).

I think it has to be reviewed and the article would be much more informative if that happens. In order to avoid an edit conflict, I will wait for your reply. --Sugaar 08:52, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Nombres de megalitos y túmulos lists * de moros as a local name of dolmens in Cantabria and Catalonia. See also gl:Mouros.

All epi-Basque area. In the line of what I was saying.

From EL TEMA DE LA CAZA SALVAJE EN LOS PETROGLIFOS GALLEGOS

La voz Mouros 132 , posiblemente de origen céltico, designando a seres míticos similares a los “elfos de Tolkien”, gente inmortal, bellísima, de piel clara y cabellos de oro, seres élficos o feéricos de buen porte, con joyas y ropa de gran valía, no se puede traducir por “moros” ni mucho menos por “negros” 133 . Los mouros gallegos, galeses y bretones, sin relación genética ninguna con los moros africanos que ocuparon Al Andalus, “son dueños de los tesoros de Galicia”, de fabulosas joyas y piedras preciosas, siendo incluso de oro hasta los yugos de sus bueyes, las guarniciones de sus monturas y sus aperos de labranza, un oro que sacan de vez en cuando al sol, a “asollar”, sobre todo las mouras, tal vez para que este metal conserve su perfecto brillo.

I don't know about this Welsh and Breton tradition, but it seems that whatever the origin and the relation with North Africans, naming megaliths after Moors was common all over Iberia.

--Error 00:18, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Northern Iberia I must point. Asturian mythology, for instance, while with some Indo-European stuff, also shows strong parallels with Basque one.

Don't you find odd that the same myths are spread in a cultural region that almost never was occupied by Muslims (Moors)?.

In any case, it needs a rephrasing. --Sugaar 07:06, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

How? --Error 21:56, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Something in the line of explaining briefly all the discussion above: how Mairu (Mairi/Maide) can be linked hypothetically to Moors or to simmilar mythical criatures present in Celtic mythology.

At least, I would add the word "arguably" in the sentence, allowing for other hypothesis to be considered. In any case Basque mairuak and their link to lamiak don't look at all like North African Moors: they are dissolute (witch-like) not Islamically moralistic. Only the name connects and I think it's not enough, specially considering the abuse of apparent (but otherwise unconnected) linguistic relations regarding Basque. --Sugaar 09:36, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

The name of Mairi derived from it.

See above.

--Sugaar 15:36, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Black madonnas

Anyone see any relation to the dark Madonnas or "black virgins" as images of Mari to the pre-christian belief of the egyptian Isis coming from overseas in a shell or the fenicians' Ashtarte,the Mother Earth?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.144.161.27 (talk • contribs)

This is not the right article to ask. Try Black madonna or Mari (goddess).

--Error (talk) 22:41, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Speculative. There are no historical images of Mari, tough a synchretic association with Christian Mary has been speculated upon. Mari is usually described as wearing red anyhow. --Sugaar (talk) 08:34, 18 May 2008 (UTC)