Talk:Maia (Middle-earth)

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[edit] Associated Vala of Blue Wizards and Balrogs

Is there any information to indicate whom the Blue Wizards were associated with? And for Balrogs: I had always thought Balrogs were associated with Melkor. The article, however, indicates that they existed prior and were eventually corrupted by Melkor (as was the case for Sauron). Considering information that links Gothmog as a possible child of Melkor, I'd think that would be a good indication that these Maia were directly associated to Melkor rather than corrupted. Any thoughts? --Thisisbossi 06:03, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Found a reference that the Blue Wizards were of Oromë (though the reference is the Blue Wizards article itself). --Thisisbossi 06:29, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

The blue wizards are reffered to as belonging to Orome in the Book of Lost Tales. In this work their names are given as Pallando and Alatar (one of whom was brought "as a friend"). The flip side is we know almost nothing about the blue wizards and even their names remained in flux for the duration of Tolkien's life. At one point he played with the notion that the 5th blue wizard was actually Glofindel to explain his reappearance on middle-earth--Darkling235 22:37, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] References to Angels not appropriate.

Unless there is reference to the word 'angel' in Tolkien's own material I can't see the analogue being useful. Though there is a supreme creator which created the Valar, Maia (or did the Valar create the Maia?) and Ea, the Valar are more like gods in the fashion of ancient Greek deities, characters with both divine and mundane attributes, individuals not entirely beholden to the creator and independent thereof - characteristics NOT attributed to angels. The Maia could be considers minor gods, though the analogue to angels seems better here than with the Valar. In any case 'angel' seems misleading, implying goodness and a whole bunch of other attributes that cannot be given to Tolkien's characters. Suggest removal of references to 'angel'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.167.197.212 (talk) 19:29, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Frankly the angel vs. archangel comparison seems to be contradictory also. This really needs attention by someone who knows Tolkien a bit. - Acq3 (talk) 03:46, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Much more powerful than mere mortals"

So not more powerful than elves? The phrase seems to continue the angels/men analogy, and as the "people" of arda aren't all men or all mortal it might be better rewritten--86.143.79.190 12:39, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Changes addressing the above

I've made changes to the article reflecting the following points:

  1. While Tolkien's letters use the term "angelic" (usually in quotes) to refer to the Valar and Maiar, he seems careful not to call them "angels". He uses the term suggestively, not definitively. These are beings in his subcreation, and he modestly wants to maintain a distinction between primary and secondary creation.
  2. Another reason for avoiding the term "angel" (and even more "archangel") is that Tolkien's beings do not share many of the characteristics that have come to be associated with those terms. The Valar of Tolkien's world are almost unrecognizable in medieval angelology, for example, and their function in the world is quite different.
  3. The article (in my view) needs to acknowledge the different senses Tolkien used 'Valar' for. We have sidestepped this in the past by calling Maiar "lesser Ainur"; but on the terminology of Ainulindale they would be lesser Valar.
  4. While Tolkien draws a clear distinction between the (greater) Valar and the Maiar, and refers to the Order of the Istari and to Sauron as being of "a different order" (not "Order") than the wizards, he never sketches anything like the formal traditional hierarchy of medieval angels. It is clear that there is a great range of native power among both the Maiar and the Valar; but formalizing the differences as "Orders" goes well beyond the text -- with the single exception of the Istari, whose "Order" seems to refer more to their mission than to their power.
  5. I'm wary of any general comparison of Mair vs the Children of Eru. They are very different kinds of beings, "powerful" in their own ways.

Elphion (talk) 17:53, 20 May 2008 (UTC)