Talk:Mahound

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[edit] Please do not delete this page while I am writing it.

If you have a problem with this page, please notify me so that we can discuss. The material for this page already exists on Wikipedia in another place, and I believe it is more appropriate within the category Category:Pejorative terms for people --BostonMA talk 20:08, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

  • It would be wrong to characterise me as "having a problem" with the page. Please withdraw that assumption. This page is meaningless without context; it is unsourced; it doesn't appear to be true (I've worked with a guy called Mahound - and yes, that was the spelling, and yes, he was muslim in his heritage). It is effectively empty. It's going to AfD now. ➨ ЯEDVERS 20:20, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi Redvers, thank you for responding. I'm sorry if my statement seemed offensive. No offense was intended. The material is sourced, there are references provided. It is also a notable term because it was used in reference to Muhammand. The information regarding this pejorative term is taken from the Muhammad article. It seems to me that if a pejorative term for an individual deserves mention in an encyclopedia, it perhaps deserves mention in an article other than that of the person for whom it is a pejorative. If you believe the pejorative does not belong on Wikipedia at all, please say so, and please mention this also at the Muhammad article. There has been an edit war going on for some time over this issue, and it was my thought (perhaps mistaken) that moving the mention of the pejorative to its own location might help to alleviate that war. If the information you have provided is correct, your input at the talk page of Muhammad could be very useful in helping resolve an edit war. Thanks. --BostonMA talk 20:24, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

This whole question is extremely confusing, even though some great writers are being used as sources. One thing that is certain is that in the mediaeval period spellings and transliterations were extremely fluid. That's why it is natural for there to be many spellings for the name of the Prophet (Muhammad, Mahommed, Mahomet etc.) in English. "Mahound" seems to be regarded as pejorative because it includes the word "hound", i.e. a dog, an animal regarded as unclean in Islam. But how can this be sourced to Dante, when Dante wrote in Italian, where the word "hound" would not be recognised? Even the combination "hound" is not a natural one in Italian. And Shakespeare - well, we know how unreliable his spelling was. Redvers, you mentioned an acquaintance of yours from the North of England. Do you know where he or his family came from before that? It might shed some light on how this transliteration or version came to be widespread. Itsmejudith 15:51, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Bernard Lewis says that Dante refered to Muhammad as Mahound if I am not mistaken. will research it. Meanwhile here is the quote from Lewis:

Beginning as a kind of demon or false god worshipped with Apollyon and Termagant in an unholy trinity, the medieval Mahound developed in the West into an arch heretic whom Dante consigned to a not undistinguished place in Hell as a 'Seminator di scandalo e di scisma;, and finally, after Reformation, into a cunning and self-seeking imposter, One legend, widespread in the medieval West, even described Muhammad as an ambitious and frustrated Roman cardinal, who, having failed to obtain election as pope, sought an alternative career as a false prophet. The last traces of Western theological prejudice may still be discerned in the work of some modern scholars, lurking behind the serrated footnotes of the academic apparatus.

--Aminz 07:54, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm, but according to this online version, Dante used the spelling Mäometto. --Iustinus 08:00, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A further reference

Review of "The Satanic Verses" in the New York Times. A proper scholarly reference but it doesn't clarify much. Note that there are other related mediaeval spellings quotes (all I think from England) and that none of the others incorporate the full "hound", therefore would not imply "dog", but seem to be just a shortening of the Prophet's real name. Itsmejudith 16:07, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Muslim named Mahound?

The claim that Mahound is a Muslim name was deleted. What about Mahound Manzaloui, an author? Restoring that claim. --BostonMA talk 19:21, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Hey, the above link is dead or broken, there is no information in it regarding that "Mahound Manzaloui" is a Muslim author. Deleting the claim. (216.99.49.114 23:18, 28 November 2006 (UTC))
I just tried the link, and it works for me. Restoring. --BostonMA talk 23:49, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Dr. Mahound 'Ashour --BostonMA talk 01:11, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
and another this time apparently last name. --BostonMA talk 01:41, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Mahound Rabah staff member at Brooklyn Law Review. --BostonMA talk 01:46, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Mahound Isaac --BostonMA talk 01:51, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Dr. Mahound Nasr Implant Dentistry Washington, Washington DC --BostonMA talk
Mahound Ouertani --BostonMA talk 02:11, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Gabriel Mahound listed in Federal Census --BostonMA talk 02:15, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Hannah Mahound East Bloomfield Census. --BostonMA talk 02:26, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Eldeeb Mahound DDS --BostonMA talk 02:32, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
M. M. Mahound coauthor of an article in J. Chem. Soc. Dalton Transactions, 1986 1359. --BostonMA talk 02:37, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Mahound, A. H. M coauthor of Modeling artificial neural networks for forcasting monthly Nile River natural flow, Journal of Engineering and Applied Science, 51(6) 1119-1134 --BostonMA talk 02:47, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
El-Gamal, Mahound A. author of "CAN ISLAMIC BANKING SURVIVE? A MICRO-EVOLUTIONARY PERSPECTIVE", "A BAYESIAN INTERPRETATION OF EXTREMUM ESTIMATORS" and with David M. Grether, "A MONTE CARLO STUDY OF EC-ESTIMATION IN PANEL DATA MODELS WITH LIMITED DEPENDENT VARIABLES AND HETEROGENEITY" --BostonMA talk 02:52, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Mahound Yahya Adam --BostonMA talk 03:26, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


Though I havnt looked at every link, all the above links show is that there are people called Mahound. they do not say that the person is muslim (which seems to be the important point in this document/argument)! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.249.229.58 (talk • contribs)

Hi, I'm not sure what your argument is? Do you agree that there are Muslims named Mahound? Do you agree that if there are Muslims named Mahound that this is a notable fact? Sincerely, --BostonMA talk 15:03, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Clearly there are Muslims named Mahound. Is this controversial for some reason? I feel like I am missing the point. Tom Harrison Talk 15:39, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sticking to facts

We know that this name was used in at least two English medieval mystery plays, with highly pejorative connotations. This may have come through into Shakespeare, it depends on looking at the original versions to see the spelling. Not Dante. Rushdie used it in the Satanic verses. It is used sometimes as a name today, probably not very often. Does that sum it up? If it does, let's follow Aminz' suggestion and create the other article and put a shortened version of this text in it. Itsmejudith 18:59, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I think that is fairly accurate. The name was also used in The Song of Roland. --BostonMA talk 19:17, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
It is also used in s:Lepanto by G.K. Chesterton. Tom Harrison Talk 19:28, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Lewis says that the conception of Muhammad in west began with " a kind of demon or false god worshipped with Apollyon and Termagant in an unholy trinity". 'As far as I remember' Termagant also appeared in Shakespeare's peom though not *sure* if Shakespeare was refering to the unholy trinity. --Aminz 10:13, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Dante doesn't mention Mahound explicitly. My mistake. --Aminz 10:17, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

The Oxford English Dictionary says the primary meaning of 'Mahound' is "A god imagined in the middle ages to be worshipped by Muslims." It goes on to say it became archaic and poetic in later use, and is now obsolete. Other spellings include 'Mahune,' 'Mahun,' 'Mahoun,' 'Macon,' 'mahownes' and 'Mahowndes' (both possesive). A less common use was as a generic term for any false god or idol. It was used as another name for the devil by Robert Burns in 1792: "The Deil cam fiddlin thro' the town, And danc'd awa wi' th'Exciseman; And ilka wife cries auld Mahoun, I wish you luck o' the prize, man." G.B. Shaw and James Joyce also used it in this sense. Rare uses included "A monster; a hideous creature", and as an adjective meaning 'Muslim' or 'heathen.'

I do not think it was pejoritive in all uses, for example "þe Sarsyns cryde all yn fere To hare god Mahone, To helpe her geaunt in þat fʒt," which I understand as "The Saracens cried all in fear to their god Mahone, To help her(their?) giant in that fight." At least in some cases uneducated people just thought Muslims worshiped Muhammad.

Some of the spellings of 'Mahound' overlap with different spellings of 'Mahomet' and 'mammet' which have their own entries in the OED. Tom Harrison Talk 14:15, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Me=sour puss

Guys, I hate to be a sour puss, but I think we're having trouble writing on the subject. Maybe we should just reduce it down a a few sentences and send it over to wiktionary. -Patstuart(talk)(contribs) 16:37, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

It's OK to be sour. I think most editors are too busy at the moment to work on this article. However, even as a stub I think it is useful. Sincerely, --BostonMA talk 17:24, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
A good start would be using full citations... for a prolific publisher like Esposito "John Esposito (1999) p.250" is not fully helpful... a book title would be nice, publishing house, city, etc. Unless other users can easily find your source it's unreferenced. gren グレン 21:23, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Scottish for the Devil

According to Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary (1985), "Mahound" is also a Scottish word for the Devil. — Quin 21:39, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Shakespeare

I've removed this

Later, the name is used by William Shakespeare in his comedy As You Like It[citation needed].

, as there's been no citation, and it seems to be false. I've looked at a Shakespeare concordance, and find no use of "Mahound" in any of the plays (and I see no use of it on skimming As You Like It). The closest we seem to get is "Was Mahomet inspired with a dove?" (Henry VI, Part I, Act I, scene 2, line 339). - Nunh-huh 14:45, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] I found it useful

Purely from a nuetral Wikipedia USER point of view (a random sample of one person). I became interested in this name whilst reading Satanic verses, and so searched for this page. I've seen this word come up in two books now, and hoped it would be here - it seems like the right place for it (Why put it in Wiktionary? It's a proper name and the article is more than a definition). It's a useful article giving historical context, and something I would hope and expect to see in an Encyclopaedia. Michaelmcandrew 12:52, 13 June 2007 (UTC)