Talk:Magnet

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[edit] Magnetic motors

Would Wikipedia consider a listing for a speculative field such as Magnetic Motors?

See: http://www.pureenergysystems.com/os/MagneticMotors/

The above question was part of the the exploration by a user who came and left in December 2003 of what Wikipedia isn't, and he seems to be part of a consensus that the answer is "no". --Jerzy 05:50, 2003 Dec 19 (UTC)

[edit] North-seeking

The article (Magnet) says

The end of a freely suspended magnet that starts to point towards the Earth's geographical North Pole, is by definition the magnetic south pole.

And no, i'm not about to point out that the geomagnetic field repeatedly reverses.

It's an even more pedantic issue than that, but i think i recall that what gets labelled N by convention is a north-seeking pole rather than a north pole, from which it follows that the geomagnetic pole in the northern hemisphere is a south pole. Maybe my instructor got befuddled in trying to talk about red end of the compass needle not being a north pole, but the consequences of being wrong about this are so small that 90% of confident sources could be wrong and never realize it. Does someone have a super-reliable source on this? --Jerzy 05:50, 2003 Dec 19 (UTC)

I just checked this out myself using the following procedure:
  1. I set up a small electromagnet (wire around a bolt).
  2. I connected a 9 volt battery to the wires.
  3. Using the right-hand rule (as defined on wikipedia), I set my hand on the coil such that my fingers were pointed in the from-positive-to-negative-direction.
  4. My thumb indicated which side was north (and then I labeled both sides with a sharpie).
  5. Then I set a stack of neodymium magnets near the magnet, and let them orient themselves on the table.
  6. I labeled the side of the magnets that faced the south side of the electromagnet as north.
  7. Then I suspended the magnets with a thread, and let them orient themselves.
  8. The north side of the magnets pointed toward geographic north, which means that the geographic north is actually a magnetic south pole.
  9. To make sure that the string wasn't twisted (or that something else wasn't forcing the magnets to move), I did everything I could to spin the magnets the other way. I twisted the thread in both directions, I moved the magnets to the middle of a room to account for any interactions with things in the room, and then I tried to point the magnets in the wrong direction. They always re-oriented themselves such that their north pole pointed toward the geographic north.

--Pkeck 15:10, 2005 Jan 14 (EST)

I did a similar experiment, but constructed a coil on a piece of wood with a aa battery. The N end of the coil, determinde by the right hand rule, pointed north when the wood was floated on water. Edison 22:30, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Revamping this page

I started to rework this page with the hopes of making it much clearer and more organized. I feel that magnets are one of those topics that the average person might be interested in, so the content here shouldn't be too in depth. If they want more information, that's what the links are there for. If anyone sees anything that isn't clear or feels that something is missing, please help out. --Pkeck 11:21, 2004 Jan 14 (EST)

[edit] New Section on "Explaining Magnetic Attraction"

I'm curious about this new section. First (and most importantly), is this really an accurate way to describe what's going on in a magnet? I've never heard of or thought about it this way...which isn't to say that it's wrong, I've just never heard about it. Can you point to a page with more explanation of this idea of net current flowing around the surface of the magnet? I understand exactly what you mean, I just haven't ever heard of it.

Second, is it really easier to understand why magnets attract or repel one another through this explanation? I'm thinking that if you told the average person to imagine a cylinder of current carrying loops that all had current flowing perpendicular to the long axis of the cylinder and all in the same direction...and then to imagine how the current of adjacent loops negates the flow of current in their neighbors because they are flowing in opposite directions at adjacent points...which means that there will only be a net flow around the surface of the cylinder...I'm thinking the average person would be completely lost.

To be honest, it seems much more complex than simply saying that each atom is a dipole, which makes the whole magnet a dipole, and when opposite poles are near one another, there is attraction (and vice versa). To sum up: is this explanation correct? And is this explanation really more simple? Pkeck 21:11, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Fully agree a new Section on "Explaining Magnetic Attraction" is needed. For instance I came to this article to understand why a)iron is atracted by a magnet and b) why a magnet is attracted by another magnet, and I came empty handed (unless I missed it) Manuel

[edit] Permanent magnets

I'd want to know, in these permanent magnets, is the magnetic field constant, or will it drain when used? And if so, will it regenerate? Take the average ABC hanging on your fridge. Will they come down due to weakened magnetic properties? Naturally one would assume that eventually they should come down, due to energy transformation. But I have yet to see a magnet fall down/stop beeing magnetic. So basically, is there any info on energy in permanent magnets?

A magnet does not lose energy by being used, and will stay on your fridge forever unless something happens (such as heating, shock or a strong external magnetic field) to demagnetise it. There is no "energy transformation", as you put it. The magnet is not using any energy ("doing work") to stay stuck to the fridge, because work = force x distance moved, and nothing is moving. The only energy transfer occurs when you stick the magnet to your fridge in the first place. As the two objects approach, some of the magnet's field goes into the metal of the fridge, resulting in a decrease in the field's energy (technically speaking, you are decreasing the reluctance of the magnetic circuit). The energy released from the magnetic field goes into pulling on your arm muscles, which turn it into heat. If you pull the magnet off the fridge, your muscles have to put that same amount of energy back into the field. You can do this as many times as you like without draining the magnet, because the energy is coming from you, not from the magnet.
There is some energy stored in the magnetic field of a permanent magnet, equal to the energy that was put in to magnetise it in the first place. This PDF is a good reference on the subject. This other PDF is good at explaining how permanent magnets work. Both of them discuss how to calculate the energy stored. --Heron 19:53, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Iron filings

Do iron filings actually show the lines of magnetic force of a magnet, or do they just show how iron filings line up when they disturb the magnetic field of a magnet? --Light current 10:26, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

The former. Give it a try yourself. Salsb 11:45, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Post copied from magnetic field

Field lines are just diagrammatic. The number drawn in any given diagram is arbitrary, the field is smooth, not ridged. Lines are just one way to show the direction and magnitude of a vector field at every point on a plane. Iron filings tend to mimic the shape of diagrammatic field lines, because adjacent lines of iron filings tend to repel each other, and because grains that are in contact tend to line up end-to-end with unlike poles touching. -- Tim Starling 12:32, Jun 24, 2005 (UTC)

But the average permeability in the plane of the paper has been increased cf that of air. So this will distort the field?--Light current 14:52, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

No one really understands the mysterious energy permanently stored in magnets. Most explanations are only theory based. So don't feel scared that mankind doesn't know how something works.

We're here to explain things, not to ascribe mystical qualities to phenomena!--Light current 23:45, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Units

What's the point of having the units of force in the introduction? The attraction or repulsion is already indicated, and the units are irrelevant. Salsb 12:56, 21 September 2005 (UTC)


Deleting and clarifying the comparison of Gaussian-CGS to SI-MKS units. SI is not replacing the "older" CGS units. Maybe in some fields, but in physics we (almost) never use SI for electrodynamics. Also, mechanical CGS is primary in chemistry. SamuelRiv 20:02, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Calculating the magnetic force

between two magnet. it is not clear what μ ("mu") means, in the formula, and how to calculate this. if anyone can explain, and expand this subject. that would be great. thanks.


[edit] Section to be aded

You guys need a history section. There is no mention of magnets and their history on WP. hmmm.--Zereshk 09:58, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] My 4yo son wants to know 'How do they make magnets'?

So guys, how do they make magnets? Im assuming he's interested in the garden variety, solid stick things to your fridge variety. Thanks for any simple explainations..

Do you want to know how to take raw materials (like a ceramic powder) and turn them into a bar and then magnetize it, or do you just want to know how to take a material that isn't normally a magnet (like scissors) and then give it its own magnetic field? For a four year old, I'd go with the latter, the explanation is simpler and is probably what he's trying to ask. You can do an experiment with him (actually, you'll need to do it with him for safety) to turn something into a magnet: Buy a neodymium magnet (also known as a rare earth magnet). They're available from loads of online retailers and from some stores. Take the magnet and stick it to the metal part of the scissors close to the handle. Be very careful when you do this--rare earth magnets are extremely strong. Do not let your child play with them. Once you've got it stuck to the scissors, then have your son help you slide the magnet all the way down the scissors and all the way off. Then reattach the magnet close to the handle, have your son help you slide it off, and repeat this over and over. After like 20 or so slides down the magnet, you can use the scissors to pick up a single staple or something small like that.
An easy explanation could go something like this: Imagine you're running a comb through hair. As you run the comb through more and more times, all of the hairs get more and more lined up with each other, until all of the hairs are pointing in the same direction. You have to run the comb through the hair, and then take the comb out and go back to where you started, and then run it through again. In the scissors, there are lots of really tiny magnets all pointing in different directions. When you drag the big magnet along the length of the scissors, you're dragging all of the little magnets inside the scissors into rows. After a while, they're all pointed in the same direction (just like the hairs with the comb), so you've made all of the little magnets behave like one big magnet!Pkeck 05:28, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
Yes, that's a valid demonstration, but it's not really "how they make magnets". Unfortunately, the real process is not something you can easily do in your kitchen. Fridge magnets and the like are made from powdered ceramic material which is either sintered (welded by applying high pressure) into a rigid block, or embedded in flexible plastic. At this point, the object is not yet a magnet. It is then heated above its Curie temperature, placed inside the magnetic field of a much larger magnet, and cooled. When it is cold, it retains the magnetic field of the larger magnet. This is the adult version. I don't know what sort of words a four-year old boy understands, so I leave the translation up to you! --Heron 11:00, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

A simple version you could try: a big magnet it made up of tiny particles, and when aligned in the same direction, they form a magnet-you can do a demonstration with small bits of paper. have N and S on each end and show how they become aligned form scrambled. Ursper 20:13, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Far field of a magnet

The bit that says

At long distances, magnetic fields obey an inverse square law.

is incorrect. An electromagnetic wave will usually decrease by inverse square. So will the magnetic field of an isolated current element. An ordinary 'bar magnet', however, is usually modelled as a 'dipole element' in the far field (distances large compared with the separation of the poles). It becomes equivalent to an 'elemental current loop' whose far field is known to decrease with 1/ x³ -

http://www.netdenizen.com/emagnet/solenoids/ilooponaxis.htm

RAClarke 20:33, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Calculating the magnetic force

Has anybody checked this "law" against a really reliable source like J. D. Jackson : " Classical Electrodynamics " , 3rd ed., (John Wiley & Sons, New York, 1998). I mean, I have studied physics now for quite a while and I never came across such a law.--LN2 02:43, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

I Love Magnets

LN2: With the units given it is definitely wrong. The general form is OK, and it could be made correct depending on how you quantitatively define "magnetic pole. For an alternate form of the law see

http://geophysics.ou.edu/solid_earth/notes/mag_basic/mag_basic.html

which seems to work out correctly.

In the form given, the numerator is Weber^2 = Tesla^2 x m^4. The denominator is (Tesla X m/Amp) X (m^2), so the result is Tesla x Amp x meter. Since a Tesla is a Volt-second, the result is Volt x Amp x second x meter = Watt x second x meter = Joule x meter which is definitely not a correct unit for force.

If no one disputes this I'm going to edit the main article in a week or so, to the form given in the link.

hfoltz, 18 March 2006

I agree: your version works out dimensionally, and mine doesn't, so mine must be wrong. It's interesting that both our references are from geophysics.ou.edu: mine from this page and yours from this one. It was unfortunate that I picked the wrong one. By the way, I reckon that since dipole moment is in A.m2 [1] and is pole strength times distance, then pole strength must be in A.m. --Heron 14:04, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Heron: I agree on the units of pole strength: A-m. That agrees with engineering texts such as Kraus. The geophysics.ou.edu website is interesting, from the format it's clear that the two pages were written by the same person. Again, I think it has to do with the unit system and either form could be correct. It's unfortunate that we've reached the 21st century and magnetic field units and terms still haven't been completely standardized. Hfoltz


[edit] Magnetising current (a la transformer)

Should we have a para on this here --- or not? --Light current 23:32, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Geomagnetic Reversal

I previously requested a source on this, as I had simply never heard of it before, and the wording "it is known" seemed to beg citation. DMacks did an excellent job of providing a timely response, however, now I have a new concern. The article Geomagnetic reversal states that the last occurance was approximately 780,000 years ago. However, as there are multiple different consensii on the age of the earth (see Dating creation), some of which hold that the planet is under 10,000 years old, I felt the simplest solution would be to simply change "it is known" to "it is believed". I think this wording will avoid any controversy between parties who hold the different viewpoints. Any thoughts? Dansiman 05:42, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

There are multiple religious viewpoints about the age of the earth. However, the scientific consensus is clear: the earth is about 4.55 billion years old. IMO, a scientific article doesn't need to weaken itself to account for religious opinions, and especially those that aren't about the topic at hand (if there were religious opinions about geomagnetic reversal itself, that could be relevant here). Young-earth creationism is relevant to age-of-the-earth discussions, but doesn't need to be brought up every time someone mentions something that is "older that that".
I agree that "it is known" sounds strange (the whole point of Wikipedia is to write what is known). OTOH, I think "it is believed" isn't much better. Better to avoid weasel words altogether. To the best scientific understanding and evidence at this time, geomagnetic reversal has occurred, and we provide a link to a discussion of that evidence. If someone wanted to debate how to write about that evidence, the page about that evidence is the place to do it. DMacks 06:53, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
New edit by Heron looks good. Dansiman 05:46, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] add a section

I suggest add a section that explains what would happen if we break a magnet into pieces Rockvee 05:31, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Check out the third paragraph here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnet#Permanent_magnets_and_dipoles Pkeck 19:39, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] history

I'd like to see a section on the history of magnets, I went to this article for that reason but there was no such section yet --213.118.83.229 08:53, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Geographic vs Magnetic Poles

Geographic North and South are the terms given to the points on the earth's surface through which the axis of the earths rotation pass, ie points at 90 degrees lattitude, points furthest from the equator, the "top" and "bottom" of the world. The magnatic poles are some distance from these and drift about somewhat. Navigators have to correct for this, particularly when near the poles. The section on geographic vs magnetic poles that points out (rightly) that the north (magnetic) pole is actually a south pole uses the term "geographic pole" in a way different to this. A way I've never come across before--Mongreilf 20:24, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I clarified that section. -- Beland 04:17, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Online References Discussion

Hello,

This is an invitation to discuss the merits of the inclusion of links to content provided by commercial entities in the 'Online References' section of this article on magnets. The following links have been or are currently present in this article:

http://www.arnoldmagnetics.com/mtc/index.htm

http://www.magnetsales.com/Design/DesignG.htm

http://www.rare-earth-magnets.com/magnet_university/magnet_university.htm

http://oersted.com/magnetizing.PDF

http://www.consult-g2.com/

http://www.wondermagnet.com/magfaq.html


Each of these sites is primarily a site intended to convey information about the products or services of a company. In addition to their commercial content, each site has presented some valuable information related to Magnetics generally contained in a separate section or page of their site. Should these sites be included in this article under the section 'Online References' or should they all be excluded? Thanks for your input. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.205.10.4 (talk)

As per extilink guidelines, if they have encyclopediac content that is not already present in wikipedia, a link from a wiki page a page of theirs that contains that content specifically relevant to the wiki page seems acceptible. The standard is for the section to be called "External links". DMacks 17:06, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Based on current usage within Wikipedia, external links to information on commercial sites appear to be fairly common. If the content contains some valuable information not currently in Wikipedia, maybe it should be allowed as long as it does not obviously further some commercial interest. Public domain information should probably be incorporated into Wikipedia and the source references dropped if they become redundant. Zapala

The following is a comment by Mwanner about this subject that I thought should be included here:

"The best solution to the issue of these links is incorporate their contents (rewritten, of course) into the article, and then list them as sources or references. It's hard work, of course, but it results in our article becoming the best possible source of information on its topic; not incidentally, it also pays back the editor who does the work significantly-- after undertaking such a task, you will find that you know the subject much better than you did by just reading the sources."

Based on all these comments, I think that commercial information sources can be included as long as they are useful sources of information and not obviously promoting the products or services of the company. Once the external link is included an effort should be made to incorporate the useful content into the article and just reference the source. I started to incorporate some of the content into the article and invite anyone else to assist. The links are now in the External Links section of the article.

[edit] Magnetic force between two bar magnets

 The factual accuracy of this article is disputed.
Please see the relevant discussion on the talk page. (March 2008)

A formula to give an approximate value of the force between magnets would very useful, and is often asked for in discussion groups. The one given here does seem to have errors when you try putting in practical values for L, R, x. The force, I think, cannot exceed 2*B^2*A/u0 (at very small x), where B is the flux density of each magnet, but the formula has no such limit. The results did not agree with a finite element simulation using FEMM (often the disagreement was orders of magnitude). It's a pity because a working approximate formula would be invaluable for practical engineering, and I haven't been able to find another one on the net. --Gbeat 15:08, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] can extreme temperatures affect the strength of a magnet?

I'm working on a science fair project and need to learn if extreme temperatures would affect the strength of a magnet. What can you tell me regarding this question and what resources would you suggest I use to find out more?

Thanks for your help.

Walker Vaughn69.255.10.35 17:28, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Hey man, I'm doing the same project. SWEET. Sorry though, I can't help.

Extreme heat certainly does; see Curie point and Néel temperature. -- Beland 03:56, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Magnets in PC Software

Can anyone explain how Magnets in computer software work and if they are malicious? 89.243.2.232 18:59, 2 February 2007 (UTC)Chris mcCletchie

Magnetism is used in computer hardware, not software - software is just information. See magnetic storage. -- Beland 04:04, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Picture

Explain are permanent magnets really permanent Hey, props to whoever got the pic at the top of the article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.50.24.4 (talk) 01:15, 22 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Diagram requests

 It is requested that a diagram or diagrams be included in this article to improve its quality.
For more information, refer to discussion on this page and/or the listing at Wikipedia:Requested images.

It would be useful to illustrate:

  • How the different forms of magnetism arise from different atomic configurations.
  • How N-S orientation aligns with the Earth's geography.
  • How electric currents, electric fields, and magnetic fields are oriented in electromagnets.
  • How magnetization can work.

-- Beland 04:01, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Non Acctracio

What is non acctractio It was in a magnet website and if it is real then someone should add what it is. (Ponser 20:12, 7 May 2007 (UTC))

[edit] The Measuring Magnetic Properties section needs to be moved/changed

It should not be the first section in the article (besides the intro), and it should not be an FAQ.

See WP:NOT#info. atomicthumbs 04:16, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Expanded 'Magnetic forces' and renamed to 'Magnetic behaviors'

I rewrote the 'magnetic forces' section to make it a little more fun to read. I'd like my facts to be checked - they were mostly borrowed from the main articles specified and some of my own knowledge. Also, looking for consensus to remove the tag for expansion.

--OEP 21:26, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Possible vandalism

In the Idiot article I reverted a vandalism by user Nal101 that said: "In the real world, Jeff Cutuli and Jeff Snyder are considered idiots because they think that the Playstation 2 doesn't have magnets in the door."

The only other colaboration by this user is in this article, where he added this text: "Most notably, magnets have been used in virtually every piece of electronic equipment over the last 20 years, especially in devices that have rotational characteristics (I.E. cd/dvd player doors/trays). The magnet secures the door in place until it is de-magnetized (allowing the door/tray to open). Contrary to popular belief, magnets pose no harm to these devices."

Now, this doesn't look like vandalism at first glance, and since I don't know anything on the subject, I will just add a "citation needed". But please, someone could check this out? --PeterCantropus 23:26, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

I just got a bit WP:BOLD and nuked it. There was too much over-generalization:
  • virtually every piece of electronic equipment? That's a lot of cell-phone magnets!
  • DVD players etc? They're just as hard to open when unplugged, so it's not as simple as de-energizing some interlock.
  • Uncited assumption of "popular belief".

DMacks 15:00, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Magnetic moment

The articles says magnetic moment is inversely proportional to the cube of distance. However in the same paragraph it gives a formula for magnetic moment as A·m². Dimensional analysis on this formula indicates magnetic moment is inversely propotional to the squre of distance. I realize from reading above that both statemens may be true, at different scales. If this is the case there needs to be a qualifier so that that there is no contradiction. I am fascinated by why the inverse square law is not applicable for the first statement and would love to undestand this better - so fleshing it out wood be great

Rmaytham 12:22, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Differenciating N & S

If I've got a magnet, how do I determine the north pole & the south pole of it? I guess a compass would be one way, but is there another way? -Joshua Hrouda

Joshua, Yes, the section of the article called: "North-south pole designation and the Earth's magnetic field" explains how to suspend a magnet so its North pole points North. Was that clear? John 19:05, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hall effect sensor

I've heard that a Hall effect sensor can sense whether a N field or S field is near it, and give an output accordingly. If so, then how is it done? -Joshua Hrouda

Yes, the hall effect sensor is a small chip in a probe, and you just hold the probe near the pole of the magnet and read its polarity and strength off the meter. John 19:07, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Why when... ...?

-Why when I broke a stick magnet that i had, did one side reverse polarity?

To illustrate this effect:

+ ======= -

+ ==== -  \break\   - ==== +

         ^ where the magnet fits together, the ends repel eachother.


This is counter-intuitive because it implies that one and only one side of the magnet switched polarity.

i experimented more and the same thing happened over and over again.

i did not figure out if the larger or smaller side switched, so that information is currently unknown to me.

WHY DOES THIS HAPPEN? what is magnetism?

- BriEnBest (talk) 12:03, 22 November 2007 (UTC)


oh and btw how do i get rid of the dotted outlines? BriEnBest (talk) 12:04, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] graphite diamagnetic?

The article states that graphite is diamagnetic, but one can observe an attraction between a piece of pencil lead and a neodymium magnet. If it was diamagnetic, wouldn't that mean it would be repelled? Or could this be due to ferromagnetic contamination in the graphite?--207.233.88.250 (talk) 05:02, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it's commonly contaminated with iron.- (User) WolfKeeper (Talk) 19:20, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] magnets

who made magnets and where was he born —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.11.16.2 (talk) 19:08, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Magnet and iorn expiriment(Iorn Meets Magnet and Sticks to it)to make magnetic field lines

To show the relationshp between iorn magnet do the followinbg expiriment. You will need the following : a white sheet of computer paper iorn (2 hand fulls) north and south pole magnet 1:cover themagnet with computer paper 2:sprinkle on the iorn 3:slide paper back and forth When you see curved lines spreading diffrent ways those are the magnetic field lines —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.203.80.27 (talk) 17:44, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

I think you mean iron ;-)- (User) WolfKeeper (Talk) 19:19, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] uses of magnet

what is a magnet use for —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.94.220.183 (talk) 08:55, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Quantum Magnets

I consider interesting people in physics write an article about Quantum Magnets, and at the bottom of this article could be found a link redirecting to the Quantum Magnet article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.145.78.9 (talk) 03:35, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] where is the pull of the magnet the strongest

==

==