Talk:Magic Johnson

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Contents

[edit] Pop Culture

I'm not sure, but should there be a mention of his appearance in South Park? --209.33.85.206 (talk) 23:42, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes. Why was it removed? Erich2426 (talk) 17:20, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Inspiration Section

The "inspiration" section is totally POV, and needs to be reworked. Thedukeofno 09:15, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

hi i like magic johnson he is kool. wut do u think of magic joneson This article reads too much like it was written by a fan: "winning ways", "unselfish playmaking", etc. I'm not familiar with the subject...I'd edit the article myself but I'm not sure about what is exaggerated and what is actually true. The facts seem correct - it's more in the presentation. Dreamyshade 0shitUTC)

Sports is one of those subjects with built-in controvesry. For every fan there's a fan rooting for a rival. You could probably remove the qualitative statements if you wanted. I'm one of those that thinks the wiki will survive a POV in articles about what I consider fluff.
You edit it out. I'm too lazy. —Clarknova 21:19, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Considering he's second all-time in assists, and would still be the record-holder had he not retired early due to HIV, I don't think "unselfish playmaking" is POV.

Yeah it's definitely POV: "...who was one of the greatest, most clutch, and most revolutionary players in the game's history. Known for his ability to make the players around him better" I don't know enough about basketball or this guy to convert this into a neutral statement. Can somebody give it a shot? -Taco325i 17:47, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

those qualitative statements are statements made about him by coachs, players, etc. akin to comments and statements about other great players like michael jordan was the greatest player to play the game" rather than deleting, work should be done to source and cite quotes like "unselfish playmaker" scouts often use terms such as that to describe a player, additionally broadcasters and announcers use them. Mwhope


[edit] how did he get hiv?

does anyone know any rumors?—Preceding unsigned comment added by Joe0200000 (talk • contribs)

There are rumors aplenty but they don't get talked about much anymore. Johnson claimed he contracted the virus through unprotected heterosexual sex. I have not read his biography but I do know he wrote that he slept with many women, often more than one at a time (I think he even wrote he slept with six at once). Some have speculated that Johnson wrote about his prolific sex life to put to rest speculation that he contracted the disease through homosexual contact. Sportswriter Dave Kindred, based on no evidence whatsoever, was reckless enough to write that Johnson must have contracted the disease through gay sex.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.106.84.4 (talk • contribs)

The "evidence" that Magic was infected by gay sex is that female-to-male sexual transmission of the virus is so rare as to be virtually nonexistent. Putting it another way, can you name another man noteworthy enough, say, to have a Wikipedia article, who has been infected with AIDS in the way Magic claims to have been? Ellsworth 21:38, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
From what I've heard, that's not true. Male to female transmission is easier, but not so much more so that you could call female to male transmission 'virtually nonexistent.' The lowest figures I've seen say that male to female is three times as likely as female-to-male, but the infection risk infobox on the Wiki article on AIDS says it's twice as likely (10 infections per 10,000 exposures vs 5 per 10,000), and a 2000 study published in the New England Journal of Medicine found that the chances of female to male vs. male to female were 'not significantly different'. [1] But, of course, it's an inherently difficult thing to measure, as not many people who know their partner is infected with HIV are likely to have unprotected sex with them.
When Johnson announced that he was HIV positive, many people still thought of AIDS as a 'gay disease', hence the rumors. If he'd claimed to have gotten it from insertive oral intercourse, I might be inclined to agree that that isn't likely, but even the chances of receptive anal intercourse and insertive vaginal intercourse are only a difference of 10 to 1, per the aforementioned wiki infobox. -- Vary | Talk 22:33, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Female-to-Male transmission of the virus is a lot more likely when the male is not properly circumcised. I do not have any reason to know the status of Johnson's Johnson, but I feel this is worth mentioning in the context of the claim that female-to-male transmission is non-existant, as it does happen in certain circumstances that favor transmission; and is common when they combine. For example, pre-existing herpes, lack of running water to wash off with, and lack of circumcision would combine to make infection of a male by a female far, far more likely. Also worth mentioning.. sex with SIX WOMEN in ONE SESSION? Maybe he just plain rubbed a hole in his pole and was exposed more directly, that could eventually lead to some chaffing ya know? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zaphraud (talk • contribs) 03:58, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Johnson was and apparently still is good friends with Arsenio Hall, another celebrity rumored to be gay. Hall is good friends with Eddie Murphy who once got pulled over by the police for giving a ride to a transvestite prostitute. Johnson wrote in his biography that he, Hall and Murphy spent many a night having lots of sex with different women. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.106.84.4 (talk • contribs)

As an aside, Johnson's wife made the news a few years back. It was widely believed that after he contracted the HIV virus, Johnson would die within a decade. Instead, he not only has lived but he has thrived. In an Ebony Magazine interview, Cookie Johnson, an apparently deeply religious woman, claimed that God had cured her husband of HIV. Both Magic and his agent at the time said that while the evidence of his virus was very small, he was not cured.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.106.84.4 (talk • contribs)

[edit] HIV mention in intro section?

Shouldn't a mention of how he was one of the first celebrities ever to come out as HIV+ and how he raised the visibility of what was formerly thought of as a "gay disease" be mentioned in the introductory section?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.161.23.60 (talk • contribs)

[edit] Article should be expanded

Especially compared with the article about his rival Larry Bird, Johnson's Wikipedia page seems quite incomplete. Other than his performance in the 1980 NBA Finals, and the fact that he won five NBA Championships, his playing career seems kinda glossed over. Would anyone care to add more? ekedolphin 05:36, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

It should also be expanded with information on his stint in the Swedish basketball league, where he played several games. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.100.26.100 (talk) 04:26, 3 December 2007 (UTC)


Well, I've given it a shot. I haven't seen the Larry Bird entry but I started to add some things to Magic's entry. I plan on entering a lot more over the coming days but as you said, anyone should feel free to add more. I followed the Lakers very closely in the 1980's--they are my favorite sports franchise ever--and I plan on adding much more in the future, without objection. SB—Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.106.84.4 (talk • contribs)

I've given it a shot but not a very good one. I see now that the article is poorly written. I'll try to do better after the holidays because like you said, the Larry Bird entry just puts Magic to shame. SB—Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.106.84.4 (talk • contribs)

[edit] Gay?

Well, is he?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.224.36.8 (talk • contribs)

Not very likely. He has been married for some time. Your implication is offensive, frankly.

Who knows, but HIV is prevalent in the gay community.

What's being married got to do with being gay? --PeterMarkSmith 09:46, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I think he's referring to being in the closet, but not feeling comfortable coming out. It is possible that Johnson experimented. 129.21.144.217 07:10, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

What difference does it make, and whose business is it anyhow, whether he's straight, bi or gay? It amuses me how we seem to assume that because someone is a public figure, we have the right to that kind of detail about their private lives. He treated us sports fans to many incredible moments, did *something* stupid in his personal life and wound up paying a high price for it. Middlenamefrank 01:38, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Honestly, this question is a bit disgusting. This isn't the 1980s, HIV is well known to spread through both heterosexual and homosexual contact, yes certain forms of sex are riskier than others (notably anal) - but an individual having HIV isn't enough call to question their sexuality when there is NO OTHER conduct in their public life that would suggest such. 128.194.26.248 21:04, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] a cure for aids

a lot of people think he got a cure for aids. he's had it for years and aint drop dead yet. some mention should be made--Jaysscholar 14:05, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

A lot of people think Tupac is alive -12.144.227.129 19:47, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

    How can he have the cure for AIDS when he only has HIV?  He takes medication so his HIV doesn't turn to AIDS.

I think you need to go reread how aids and HIV work...


FACT -- UCLA has developed an HIV vaccine. as per new drug requirements, 10 years of testing and side-effects studies are MANDATORY before it can be approved and mass produced! so far, it looks very promising. magic simply got a hold of this experimental drug. kanye west is right, 'magic can afford the cure for aids'... HOW DO I KNOW? my beloved girlfriend has worked with ALL of UCLA's medical research protocols for several years AND she is never wrong (trust me). meanwhile, plenty of 'regular' people are dying off... not fair at all.

A vaccine is a much, much different thing than a cure. A vaccine will prevent you from contracting a disease, before you've ever come in contact with it. It will NOT cure the disease if you've already contracted it. There is no cure for HIV, but the treatments are pretty effective if you adhere to the program. It's a very intense and difficult treatment program, with several medications that have to be taken in a carefully-timed pattern without fail every single day, but Magic is only one of many people who have lived with HIV for a decade or longer, keeping it under control so it doesn't turn into AIDS. Middlenamefrank 01:44, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

how was his family background?


Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight... a magic vaccine against AIDS/HIV from UCLA and we've never heard anything about it anywhere, right? Oh, but that's the medical establishment "holding back the information" from the public, right? Spare me your conspiracy theory crap - there's no vaccine for HIV or AIDS, your GF either doesn't exist or is cracked out. I can't believe anyone is buying this shit.

Actually, I believe there are several substances being tested now, with none being shown to be entirely effective. An article on the UCLA work is here. There are a lot of tests that have to be run on any proposed vaccine and, due to the fact you can't ethically attempt to infect a human with HIV, you have to watch and see what happens to the groups in the trial and this takes a considerable amount of time. 75.46.106.222 18:12, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
While it's true that there are currently many potential cures and/or vaccines for HIV/AIDS, I'm going to have to say that this has been true for many different substances in the past - HIV is a difficult virus to treat, because it can appear to be completely out of an infected patients system until they are taken off of the medication, during which time it flourishes and repopulates quickly. In the past several of the medications currently used to keep HIV in check were initially thought to destroy the virus completely - it's very frustrating towards researchers. There is currently no vaccine, even if there was and it had not yet been FDA approved - you would of heard of it, especially if you're even somewhat involved in disease research. There WOULD OF been a paper published, and it would of created a lot of talk - it's hard to keep these things under wraps 128.194.26.248 21:01, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
The point of a vaccine is to prevent infection ergo of no use to Johnson. Also I don't believe you have a girlfriend -enjoy your AIDS. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 145.18.20.16 (talk) 15:51, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Former SDA?

While this may well be true (I don't know his official membership status), the article is included in that category. For that to be proper, proof should be mentioned (and referenced) in the article. -- Fyslee (collaborate) 09:16, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Disappointing

It's kind of sad to see this article in the state it's in. I'm more interested in politics than Basketball but I am a fan of the game and will give a Barnstar to anyone who can significantly clean up this article. Howard Cleeves 11:53, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Onomatopoeia, it looks a lot better. Howard Cleeves 19:21, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] General cleanup

I just did a major redo. It is not perfect but I think it is a decent step into GA range. Onomatopoeia 15:10, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank you so much for making this article respectable. Howard Cleeves 08:00, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] All-time scoring champion

there's this part which says Johnson was keen to join the Lakers because he wanted to play with his idol, Kareem AJ, the "all-time scoring champion". does this mean he was already the all-time scoring champion at that point in time, or did we mean he would become the eventual all-time scoring champion? Chensiyuan 03:55, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Another question is should the NCAA in the lead be de-abbrieviated? Chensiyuan 08:57, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA Quick-Fail

I am quickfailing this article's GA nomination without a formal review. The major problem is the copious use of copyright images in an incorrect manner. The article uses magazine covers, and the liscencing tag on each of these clearly states that it is to be used ONLY:

"to illustrate the publication of the issue of the magazine in question".

The images are only used tagentally to illustrate Magic Johnson and various accomplishments in his life, not to illustrate discussion of Sports Illustrated or the covers or articles specifically. Thus, it cannot be used under Wikipedia's own fair use guidelines. These guidelines have changed significantly in the recent past, so you may want to familiarize yourself with them before using images such as these in the future. See WP:FU for more information. I have not reviewed the article beyond this, and am not making any comment on the rest of the article. Please feel free to renominate the article once this issue has been addressed. Also, if you feel this was handled inappropriately, you may ask for remediation at WP:GA/R. Please feel free to drop a line by my talk page if you have any questions. --Jayron32|talk|contribs 23:51, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Larry Bird

This article is incorrect it indicates that Larry Bird had established himself right before thge 1983-84 season. Bird had already established himself well earlier after winning rookie of the year and a title in his first two seasons. Trevor GH5 20:10, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Redundant

What's with the Personal life section at the end of the article? It repeats information that was previously contained in the article.72.73.202.193 22:18, 23 May 2007 (UTC)Lestrade

[edit] Requested move

The following discussion is archived. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.
  • Earvin Johnson, Jr. → Magic Johnson
  • Agree - He is referred to as Magic Johnson, not Earvin Johnson, Jr. The 11-year-old editor who moved this seems to feel we identify people by their full names. Read the guidelines or leave the editing to the adults. Thank you. --Downwards 05:09, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Agree Blatantly obvious. Quadzilla99 06:38, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Agree, and use a Earvin redirect. Chensiyuan 06:40, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.


[edit] Gunter Bork?

There are three quotes in this article from "German sports journalist Gunter Bork". At the risk of appearing narrow minded, it seems a bit odd that there would be such heavy reliance on an authority who, according to Google, doesn't have much to do with anything other than this page. I'm not familiar with the level of commentary of US Basketball in Germany, but I find it hard to believe that there aren't more well known sources from the massive US NBA commentary industry.

I added these. Well, I am German and these are the books I *have* available, and they are perfectly legit sources as of WP:RS. If you have better books, feel free to add! Onomatopoeia 18:06, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Sadly I don't. But with any luck someone who does will rise to the challenge now that we've brought some attention to it.

[edit] GAC, Take 2

2nd try for Magic after quick fail on the fiorst attempt, had to take out a few SI pics *sigh* Onomatopoeia 18:06, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA comments

The article is comprehensive, but most of the issues at Talk:Bob Cousy apply here, with respect to the flamboyant tone of the prose, although it is much better. If any examples are needed, then I will provide them. The other thing is that the books section at the bottom needs to be properly filled out using Surname, firsname and the publisher and year if you are going to put the isbn. As for the refs, please use pp if it is a page range and remember to put a "." after the number and the "pp". Thansk, Blnguyen (bananabucket) 02:45, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the review, could you point out the "flamboyant parts" please? That would help improving this article up to GA level. Onomatopoeia 08:26, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
I just corrected the refs, toned down the tone, and did some factual and wikignome work, hope it helps. Onomatopoeia 08:11, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

With respect to the refs, I was meaning the list of books about MJ. They should be put in the standard form for book details. I have done one for you as an example. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 02:52, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

With respect to flamboyant prose, here are some examples:

  • "the rookie proved them wrong, introducing spectacular, crowd-pleasing "Showtime" basketball defined by quick fastbreaks, making use of his uncanny dribbling and passing to enable high-percentage slam dunks or open layups for his colleagues"
    • It would be better to quote a pundit marveling about his scoring onslaughts and skillfulness rather than stuff like this, which is far over the line.
  • "Sixers superstar Julius "Doctor J" Erving and Darryl Dawkins" - no defn exists for "superstar" - weasel word.
  • "Beyond the hardwood" - colloquial
  • "crusaders" - hyperbole:activists/campaigners is sufficient and appropriate
  • "With the two gifted and charismatic superstars" - weasel
  • "German sports journalist Gunter Bork" - multiple times. do not need to remind the reader who he is so often
  • "Beyond its captivating mix of styles and fans" - should explicitly state how their style and appeal is different:show not tell.
  • "was so gripping" needs to be toned down -> "appealed to the public" etc
  • "through most of Magic's first 12 seasons with the Lakers his weight was listed by the Lakers as 226 pounds" - should be put in a footnote using the ref brackets
  • "hosting an ill-fated late night talk show on Fox called The Magic Hour in 1998" - better to say what the ratings were and how short it was on air before it was axed.
  • "United States men's national basketball team who represented the USA " redundancies, we already know he is US.

Those examples were from the bottom half. The same principles apply to the top half as well. Regards, Blnguyen (bananabucket) 02:52, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Did yet another cleanup, addressing the upper points. I hope the tone is also matter-of-factly enough now. —Onomatopoeia 14:01, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Well, I am happy to pass it now. I figured that since there are many basketball articles being put up and FAC and GAC that I felt were too flowery, I would clear out some hyperbole myself. It's OK now, but could do with more quantifiable info. I am going to pass this article, but please go through the article and prune down on the nicknames, which make the article prose appear somewhat suspect. It will have a rough time at FAC unless the prose is more precise. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 04:25, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Yeehaw! Thanks for the green plus. Well, as for the prose, if that is the worst problem, then we will be happy to eliminate that ASAP. This is only a superficial issue. —Onomatopoeia 07:46, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Children

He has a son named Andre who is about 26 years old now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.128.90.70 (talk) 16:08, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

verification? Chensiyuan (talk) 01:31, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bad top picture

That picture's pretty bad. His whole face isn't in it. Looks like he's about to go somewhere, which is what makes it kinda fuzzy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.183.55.167 (talk) 22:22, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree completely, that picture is horrible. Replace it with this one: http://www.polichicksonline.com/Magic%20Johnson.jpg  ? Paladin_Hammer (talk) 05:12, 6 Febuary 2008 (UTC)

I removed the photo and I recommend it stay removed unless it can be replaced with something decent. The phonecam pic is of such poor quality that it might as well be of any well-built black guy with a shaved head.
Peter Isotalo 17:55, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Any chance someone could replace it with the one I suggested in the link? I've never learned how to edit in a picture Paladin Hammer (talk) 02:44, 21 February 2008 (UTC)


they wont use that picture because it is "copyrighted" instead they'd rather use no picture at all or a very bad picture some nerd took with his cellphone.

welcome to wikipedia. if the OCD admins spend as much time trying to find or get a decent picture as they do hunting down and deleting good press shots (that are copyrighted) we might actually have good pics. I tried to upload my cam pic but they deleted it over and over instead of trying to find a replacement. What a good use of effort. -- some idiot —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mikejamesftw (talk • contribs) 18:44, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Maybe there's a CC image good enough... igordebraga ≠ 01:06, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Changing this

changing this:"Johnson is also well-known for contracting HIV". I don't think he's known so much for ..."contracting" it.--Gtg207u (talk) 04:27, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Magic's mystery height?

He's listed and cited as being 6'8" (specifically, 6'8.25") in Legacy (citation18) as measured at the 1992 Olympics, but throughout the rest of the article he's 6'9. Perhaps factually important given the dude played bball? Somatosis (talk) 01:30, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Why no info on his stint in Sweden?

Magic Johnson played a full season of basketball in Sweden, back in 98 i believe. Why is there no mention of this at all? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.95.88.254 (talk) 12:08, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Give a source to point others in that direction. Chensiyuan (talk) 13:48, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
He played at least one game: [2]. Zagalejo^^^ 16:36, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
Okay would try to fit that in. Chensiyuan (talk) 15:13, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
Upon reading the article, I feel it'd be better if we can verify that he played more than one game. Otherwise, it would be quite hard to mention it (notability-wise). Chensiyuan (talk) 15:24, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
It seems he did play a few games with a Swedish team, but I can't find any reliable sources, so it probably would be best to leave it out. Noble Story (talk) 00:50, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Well, don't give up. There's probably something somewhere. I'll see what I can find on Newsbank. Zagalejo^^^ 04:07, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Here's an excerpt from a 2000 article, which shows that he played a few more games: [3]. If you think it's worth mentioning, I can access the entire article. Zagalejo^^^ 04:23, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] To do list

What does "And try not to over-use specific references." mean? Chensiyuan (talk) 16:30, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I think it means that the same source should be not ad nauseam, e.g. the NBA.com article is referred to 25 (!) times. —Onomatopoeia (talk) 22:33, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
  • On the TO DO list, I think it would be good if at least each NBA Finals Magic played should be described in more detail, if possible (3-4 sentences). The headlines should be less journalistic and more encyclopaedic (e.g. "Ups and downs" could be replaced by "Riley takes over"; "Larry Bird and the Bad Boys" could become "Bird-Johnson rivalry" and "Lakers-Pistons rivalry") and more sources regarding HIV/AIDS would be nice. A picture would help, too. —Onomatopoeia (talk) 22:37, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
    • Yes to those; I've added refs for some of the playoffs/finals, and those refs would be quite handy for adding details to those games. The section on his rookie year contains much more detail than the other sections! Chensiyuan (talk) 23:38, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
  • For images, I've found a couple on Flickr that are OK (although none of him in his playing days, obviously). Now I'm waiting for the authors to give their permission... Noble Story (talk) 02:37, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
    • Nice! Chensiyuan (talk) 02:50, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
      • I think the pic will be deleted, if nothing happens. It is "all rights reserved" and not CC-BY-SA as required by WP. :/ —Onomatopoeia (talk) 21:23, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
        • That new pic seems to be legit. —Onomatopoeia (talk) 08:27, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
          • Actually, the last image was legal too. It was released under GFDL license, so I have no idea why it was deleted. Noble Story (talk) 08:48, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] FAC

After being collaborated on for a week, does anyone think it is ready to go to FAC? I still see some things to be corrected, but nothing too major? Any thoughts? Noble Story (talk) 03:57, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps a fresh pair of eyes can give a 3p opinion before we go for it. A bunch of us have been too involved and may have missed something. At this point I only one comment -- is there any way we can contextualise the hollywood image? Chensiyuan (talk) 13:47, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, I've just gone ahead and put it up for FAC. Even if there are issues raised by the reviewers (there probably will be), I think if we have all the editors of this WP work together, then it'll be fine. Noble Story (talk) 02:35, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Navboxes

I'm not sure if there's a guideline that discusses this (I couldn't find one), but I can't help but notice this article has tons (15) of navboxes. I was just wondering, as I've not seen this done on other articles, if these navboxes could be placed into a shell such as this:


... or if there's a similar template which is to be used when dealing with navboxes or if navboxes should not be messed with in this manner at all. Chickenmonkey (talk) 07:51, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

I just fixed it. Noble Story (talk) 08:13, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
I looked all over for that, but must not have looked in the right place. Looks better. Chickenmonkey (talk) 08:28, 30 May 2008 (UTC)